My thoughts on the Thunder and Lightning documentary

[Todd4State]

I thought it was really well done.

That 1985 team was a revolutionary team. They put the SEC on the map in baseball. I think they are also a revolutionary team in terms of baseball in Mississippi and they are why college baseball is so popular here, and also the South in general as well. I think they are also revolutionary in terms of MSU athletics because they were the first team that showed that we could compete for National Championships at MSU- and I think that has translated to the other sports teams as well.

You can't really say enough about Clark and Palmeiro as players- Palmeiro own the SEC triple crown and was the first guy to do that. You're talking about guys that hit 25 home runs while batting over .400. You just don't see that nowadays. Clark was also an elite defender at first base.

I'm glad that they talked about the rest of the team as well- Brantley and Thigpen as well as Gene Morgan. Dan Van Cleve and Gator Theisen weren't mentioned, but they were very important players on those teams as well even though they didn't have the pro careers that the big four guys did. Van Cleve and Theisen were guys that can run and they were our one and two hitters- and they were usually the guys being driven in by Palmeiro, Clark, and Thigpen.

Of course they mentioned the LFL and they talked about how good our fans and our program is- all very positive MSU. The only thing I didn't like besides the highlights of Morgan staying in against Texas and Thigpen serving up that home run to Miami was them talking about Palmeiro and steroids- but it had to be in there. It was good to see them talk a little bit about Clark's time in St. Louis- I was pumped when the Cardinals got him and then he delivered big time.

The only tidbit I would have added was Clark didn't start his freshman year because we had Chris Maloney who went on to be drafted by the Cardinals and is now their first base coach. Maloney is basically our Wally Pipp. Maloney got hurt and then Clark got to play and we couldn't take him out of the lineup.

It sucks that both Clark and Palmeiro couldn't play on the 1984 Olympic team because Palmeiro wasn't a citizen. That team had a lot of Big leaguers on it- including Barry Larkin.

One last thing that I want to mention that I hope our recruits see- Clark was drafted in the fourth round and Palmeiro was drafted in the eighth round out of high school. The came to MSU and ended up as first round picks.

[Lumpy Chucklelips]

They mentioned Clark not starting his freshman year. Even had Polk mention "Clark had to make a few adjustments and didn't start his freshman year until mid-season".

I guess in my heart of hearts....and I had just graduated when they got there and spent a ton of time on campus watching them play...I still to this day don't want to believe Raffy used steroids. Even watching tonight, I was pointing out to my Ole Miss wife...look at his arms, look at his neck...no way he was using. All I have to say is...if he was using....he didn't get his money's worth if he was wanting to build his body like the rest of 'em.

[Homedawg]

They mentioned Clark not starting his freshman year. Even had Polk mention "Clark had to make a few adjustments and didn't start his freshman year until mid-season".

I guess in my heart of hearts....and I had just graduated when they got there and spent a ton of time on campus watching them play...I still to this day don't want to believe Raffy used steroids. Even watching tonight, I was pointing out to my Ole Miss wife...look at his arms, look at his neck...no way he was using. All I have to say is...if he was using....he didn't get his money's worth if he was wanting to build his body like the rest of 'em.

Oh he got his money's worth just look at his hr total pre roids and post roids. He wouldn't have made twice the money Clark made if he didn't. I hate to say it, but he is guilty as the rest. Why o why did he have to do it one more year and all the guy needed was 67 hits to 3000 and no shame other than a speculative report. Stupid.

[shoeless joe]

I didn't mind them talking about steroids except for bringing in schilling and kruk to basically call him a liar. They had nothing to do with the documentary other than those comments. I would love to believe he was clean, and he did not have the body that the other "users" had but it's hard to believe he didn't use.

Overall I enjoyed it and it showed the university in a very positive light. Also appreciated how it seemed both were willing to at least appear to somewhat move on and be friendly at the reunion. The director could've easily gone the other way with that but it brought everything together in a positive way at the end.

[Todd4State]

I'm not an expert on steroids by any means- but from my understanding there are some that you take to build muscle which is what we think of when we think about steroids, and then there are steroids you take for an energy boost. I guess the idea is you can work out longer and recover more quickly, thus building more muscle. I'm thinking that's what the B12 was for- energy and recovery.

I will say this on his behalf- I think a lot of players took stuff that they didn't know what the heck it was at that time. I'm sure others were very aware.

I look at steroids in baseball at that time like Bill Burr- OK, so our roided up guy was better than your roided up guy. And I do believe personally that most players took steroids at some point in time in their careers in the late 90's. And yes, I do believe that there were some like Clark that didn't take them either. I don't think players in the 90's had any clue that steroids would ever taint their careers because they were legal in baseball at that time and I think it was just something that they did and it was part of the game that you had to do to stay in MLB.

[Todd4State]

I didn't mind them talking about steroids except for bringing in schilling and kruk to basically call him a liar. They had nothing to do with the documentary other than those comments. I would love to believe he was clean, and he did not have the body that the other "users" had but it's hard to believe he didn't use.

Overall I enjoyed it and it showed the university in a very positive light. Also appreciated how it seemed both were willing to at least appear to somewhat move on and be friendly at the reunion. The director could've easily gone the other way with that but it brought everything together in a positive way at the end.

Kruk is probably the one guy in baseball that is even less of an expert on steroids than I am. I would be surprised if Schilling never used them personally.

I did like how it ended. And it was good to see that they are moving on. I wonder why it never occurred to both of them that they could both be on the same team in the AL and share 1B/DH duties?

I don't know how the thing with the Rangers and Clark went down, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the only place Clark could go. He wanted a big salary and he had a down year. He may not have had a choice. And the Rangers may have been thinking that they could maybe swing a deal where they are reunited and it blew up in their face.

[Coach34]

Raffy used winstrol- which is a cutting steroid and doesnt bulk you up the way some of the others do. I have no doubts that he probably used winstrol the last few years of his career.

[maroonmania]

It was very well done. I did think Raffy got shortchanged slightly with the "Clark hit HRs and Raffy hit singles" comment which is totally inaccurate as Raffy outhomered Clark over his MSU career. And also I don't believe I ever heard it mentioned that Raffy is the only modern SEC triple crown winner which he won in 1984. I was shocked that wasn't voiced in the piece. Maybe I missed it but I don't think so and that was an incredible accomplishment.

I'll also add that watching that piece made me even more disappointed that neither of Palmeiro's sons chose to carry on his legacy at MSU. I'm sure they had their reasons but it would have really been special for one of them to have done so, especially Preston, since when Patrick came along the rift with Polk and MSU was probably still too fresh in everyone's minds.

[Lumpy Chucklelips]

I thought the same thing on the Clark hit HR's and Raffy singles. I think Jim Ellis mentioned Raffy winning the triple crown.

All I know is I'm ready for this program to get back to CONSISTENTLY being a top 10-15 program and being in the conversation for winning it all every few years or so.

[DancingRabbit]

Raffy used winstrol- which is a cutting steroid and doesnt bulk you up the way some of the others do. I have no doubts that he probably used winstrol the last few years of his career.

I have doubts. Raffy had clean tests before and after. Two weeks after his positive test he tested clean. Tejada has been a proven liar on multiple occasions. Not so with Raffy.

Raffy knew he would probably make the Hall without any heroics in 2005. He had vigorously testified to not using before Congress. No rational reason to use an easily detected substance like stanozolol. I think he's only guilty of being stupid enough to take a vitamin shot from a teammate.

Raffy knows and I'm sure has been told by many that if you fall on your sword and beg forgiveness that fans are usually quick to forgive. That he still maintains his innocence makes me thinks that maybe he is.

[Bubb Rubb]

They mentioned Clark not starting his freshman year. Even had Polk mention "Clark had to make a few adjustments and didn't start his freshman year until mid-season".

I guess in my heart of hearts....and I had just graduated when they got there and spent a ton of time on campus watching them play...I still to this day don't want to believe Raffy used steroids. Even watching tonight, I was pointing out to my Ole Miss wife...look at his arms, look at his neck...no way he was using. All I have to say is...if he was using....he didn't get his money's worth if he was wanting to build his body like the rest of 'em.

I will probably get flamed for this, but Raffy did not come off well in the documentary when the subject went to steroids. Yes, he took responsibility, but he's still trying to use that B12 excuse. I think John Kruk eloquently articulated why that defense is BS. Even our own Jeff Brantley said he can't give Raffy the benefit of the doubt over that. And the build of his body is not the tell-tale sign that he was using. It was his ability to not only play at a high level, but to keep improving that high level, year over year, well into his late 30s that is the tell-tale sign. Most people see their skills slip starting in their mid 30s. Clark retired at 36, and even though he could've played another couple of years, he wasn't at an elite level anymore. He could've been if he was juicing.

[Smitty]

Clark at his best was a better ballplayer than Raffy at his best. Hell, Clark was better than Raffy in 2000 the year he retired. I'm a huge Will Clark guy and he doesn't get near the credit he deserves especially being clean throughout those steroid infested years. He was a hall of fame talent.

[Schultzy]

I don't see why everyone waxes so moral about juicing. Everyone was doing it and it's worth millions of dollars to do so and you get to keep playing baseball.

You'd be a fool not to in my opinion. These new performance enhancing drugs aren't the body killers that anabolic was.

[Saltydog]

show (Brantley, Thigpen, Raffy and Clark). Heck, Thigpen had the MLB record for saves in a season for a quite a few years. I think the White Sox over pitched him the year he had 57 saves and he was never the same. Brantley is in the Reds H.o.F. and was an all star.

Did they mention Will winning the Golden Spikes award? I don't recall it. Also failed to mention he was the starting 1B on the '84 Olympic team, over McGwire.

Also thought they should've mentioned that the '85 team was probably the best team in CBB never to win the CWS and that MSU has been there 9 times but never won it. I think other than FSU, we've been there more times than anyone and never won it.

I know they mentioned the LFL but they didn't show near enough footage of the environment out there nor did they mention all of the attendance records. That definitely should've been mentioned. Those guys are part of the reason we have all those records.


BTW, who was our no. 3 starter? I know Brantley was 1 and Morgan 2. Who was no. 3? Was it Trent Intorcia?

[Homedawg]

show (Brantley, Thigpen, Raff and Clark). Heck, Thigpen had the MLB record for saves in a season for a quite a few years. I think the White Sox over pitched him the year he had 57 saves. Brantley is in the Reds H.o.F. and was an all star.

Did they mention Will winning the Golden Spikes award?

Also thought they should've mentioned that the '85 team was probably the best team in CBB never to win the CWS.

I know they mentioned the LFL but they didn't show near enough footage of the environment out there and failed to mention MSU's attendance records. That definitely should've been mentioned. Those guys are part of the reason we have all those records.

I don't think they mentioned the golden spikes award, but they did show it in what was essentially a freeze frame. Steve king was the third starter.

[Bubb Rubb]

I don't see why everyone waxes so moral about juicing. Everyone was doing it and it's worth millions of dollars to do so and you get to keep playing baseball.

You'd be a fool not to in my opinion. These new performance enhancing drugs aren't the body killers that anabolic was.

I'm certainly not, and you are absolutely correct. It was the cost of doing business at the time. It's less about the actual juicing, and more about how the denials were handled. He would've probably gained a lot more sympathy and won over some people if he would've just come out and said, you know what, I did what I had to do. People forgive easily. But the finger-wagging at congress and the tainted B12 argument don't come off well.

[Coach34]

I don't hold juicing against Palmeiro- don't blame him one bit. But you look at his performance and it's easily figured out.

[Coach34]

Palmeiro spent 4 years in Chicago and couldn't hit 10 HR's a season...goes to Texas with the roid guys and suddenly hit 30-40???? C'mon mane, you can't be that naive???

[Dental Dawg]

Did anyone else notice the booger in Larry Templeton's right nostril?

[maroonmania]

Palmeiro spent 4 years in Chicago and couldn't hit 10 HR's a season...goes to Texas with the roid guys and suddenly hit 30-40???? C'mon mane, you can't be that naive???

I'm not saying Palmeiro wasn't on something, he likely was, but Palmerio was just a young skinny kid when he played at MSU and in his early days in MLB. As he got older he filled out and had a more muscular frame so that part makes sense that his power production increased quite a bit. I mean he only played in Chicago 3 seasons and was adjusting to major league pitching at the time he was a string bean. Now most of us fill out more in our upper 20s and early 30s and that COULD have been done by a better diet and training regimen. Yes, it was likely enhanced by steroids, but I don't like it when its automatic that someone was juicing because they improved their performance over time and became bigger. Heck, was Nolan Ryan juicing just because he was still a dominant pitcher in his upper 30s? And if you look at the stats Raffy really jumped in HR production in Baltimore, not Texas. He only had one season in Texas with over 30 homers but when he got to Baltimore he had 4 out of 5 seasons with over 30 homers. I mean let's remember, when Raffy was fully healthy, he had 29 homers in college one season so its not like he was incapable of hitting for power prior to MLB. Point is, Palmeiro was one hell of a hitter with or without steroids.

[Saltydog]

dangling in his nose.

[Liverpooldawg]

I don't think they mentioned the golden spikes award, but they did show it in what was essentially a freeze frame. Steve king was the third starter.

Their last year the third starter was Harold Myles.

[maroonmania]

show (Brantley, Thigpen, Raffy and Clark). Heck, Thigpen had the MLB record for saves in a season for a quite a few years. I think the White Sox over pitched him the year he had 57 saves and he was never the same. Brantley is in the Reds H.o.F. and was an all star.

Did they mention Will winning the Golden Spikes award? I don't recall it. Also failed to mention he was the starting 1B on the '84 Olympic team, over McGwire.

Also thought they should've mentioned that the '85 team was probably the best team in CBB never to win the CWS and that MSU has been there 9 times but never won it. I think other than FSU, we've been there more times than anyone and never won it.

I know they mentioned the LFL but they didn't show near enough footage of the environment out there nor did they mention all of the attendance records. That definitely should've been mentioned. Those guys are part of the reason we have all those records.


BTW, who was our no. 3 starter? I know Brantley was 1 and Morgan 2. Who was no. 3? Was it Trent Intorcia?

Another interesting tidbit from the '85 CWS left out was that in that Miami game, in the 8th inning, Miami hit a long fly ball into RF that banged off the wall and right into Bobby Thigpen's head. Thigpen threw the ball back to the infield and collapsed in the 90+ degree heat with a concussion. He did somehow stay in though and the very next inning is called on to close the game out likely still with a light head. Between the ankle shot on Morgan and the head shot in the outfield on Thigpen we had some awful luck with pitchers in that CWS.

[maroonmania]

Their last year the third starter was Harold Myles.

Harold Myles graduated in either 83 or 84. He definitely wasn't on the 85 team. The primary issue why the '85 team didn't win it all, other than bad luck, was lack of pitching depth. We essentially had 2 starters and a closer and not much else on that pitching staff. There was a reason Texas scored 12 runs once they knocked out Gene Morgan.

[Coach34]

Going from hitting 8 HR's in a season to 30 a season is a significant jump. He was 27 years old also- it's not like he was still a skinny 22 yr old. He triples and quadruples his HR output once he is traded to a team that was infested with steroids. The evidence is pretty obvious

[Mjoelner34]

Going from hitting 8 HR's in a season to 30 a season is a significant jump. He was 27 years old also- it's not like he was still a skinny 22 yr old. He triples and quadruples his HR output once he is traded to a team that was infested with steroids. The evidence is pretty obvious

How about 11 to 35? That's what Clark did between year 1 and 2.

[maroonmania]

Going from hitting 8 HR's in a season to 30 a season is a significant jump. He was 27 years old also- it's not like he was still a skinny 22 yr old. He triples and quadruples his HR output once he is traded to a team that was infested with steroids. The evidence is pretty obvious

He didn't jump from 8 to 30 like you are implying, here are his stats:

Cubs 1987 14 HRs
Cubs 1988 8 HRs
Rangers 1989 8 HRs
Rangers 1990 14 HRs
Rangers 1991 26 HRs
Rangers 1992 22 HRs
Rangers 1993 37 HRs
Orioles 1994 23 HRs
Orioles 1995 39 HRs
Orioles 1996 39 HRs
Orioles 1997 38 HRs
Orioles 1998 43 HRs

So it was a steady climb, he never hit 30 HRs until his last year in Texas prior to signing with Baltimore after Will took his spot in Texas. And I say he likely was juicing, but its not like he went from single digit HRs to over 30 in one year. In fact, he only had ONE year in Chicago as a full time starter. In 1987 he got those 14 HRs in ony 221 ABs.

[Coach34]

How about 11 to 35? That's what Clark did between year 1 and 2.

that makes a whole lot more sense. Get adjusted to MLB after a year and your talent flourishes. Palmeiro did it in Year 5

[Liverpooldawg]

Harold Myles graduated in either 83 or 84. He definitely wasn't on the 85 team. The primary issue why the '85 team didn't win it all, other than bad luck, was lack of pitching depth. We essentially had 2 starters and a closer and not much else on that pitching staff. There was a reason Texas scored 12 runs once they knocked out Gene Morgan.

You are correct, Myles was on the 84 team but not 85. I would have sworn I remembered him from the regional in 85. That's what getting old will do for you. 85 was my SR year at MSU.

[maroonmania]

that makes a whole lot more sense. Get adjusted to MLB after a year and your talent flourishes. Palmeiro did it in Year 5

Part of the issue was that Palmerio had some physical issues (back I think) that caused him to get off to a slower start and was apparently the reason his JR year at MSU wasn't as good. However, Palmeiro was a more prolific HR hitter in college than even Will was. Don't see how you can say that it makes perfect sense that Will can hit 35 HRs in the majors no problem but its totally suspicious when Raffy did it.

[Coach34]

All the more reason- you don't just suddenly become a HR hitter at 30 after 6-7-8 yrs in MLB. It's nuts to think that. Nobody else in history has done that.

[maroonmania]

All the more reason- you don't just suddenly become a HR hitter at 30 after 6-7-8 yrs in MLB. It's nuts to think that. Nobody else in history has done that.

OK, jumping hugely in one year now makes more sense to you than if you gradually increase your production over a 5 to 6 year period. Whatever, you've already made your mind up on it anyway the stats lay out. I saw Palmeiro hit through his entire college career while in school and he surely didn't need to have steroids to hit 25 to 30 HRs per year in the Majors. Granted, getting into the mid and upper 40s is somewhat questionable for sure.

[dawgs]

They mentioned Clark not starting his freshman year. Even had Polk mention "Clark had to make a few adjustments and didn't start his freshman year until mid-season".

I guess in my heart of hearts....and I had just graduated when they got there and spent a ton of time on campus watching them play...I still to this day don't want to believe Raffy used steroids. Even watching tonight, I was pointing out to my Ole Miss wife...look at his arms, look at his neck...no way he was using. All I have to say is...if he was using....he didn't get his money's worth if he was wanting to build his body like the rest of 'em.

Plenty of steroids aren't just to build muscle mass, but to recover your muscles from the day to day grind so that you are feeling fresh each day.

[dawgs]

I'm not saying Palmeiro wasn't on something, he likely was, but Palmerio was just a young skinny kid when he played at MSU and in his early days in MLB. As he got older he filled out and had a more muscular frame so that part makes sense that his power production increased quite a bit. I mean he only played in Chicago 3 seasons and was adjusting to major league pitching at the time he was a string bean. Now most of us fill out more in our upper 20s and early 30s and that COULD have been done by a better diet and training regimen. Yes, it was likely enhanced by steroids, but I don't like it when its automatic that someone was juicing because they improved their performance over time and became bigger. Heck, was Nolan Ryan juicing just because he was still a dominant pitcher in his upper 30s? And if you look at the stats Raffy really jumped in HR production in Baltimore, not Texas. He only had one season in Texas with over 30 homers but when he got to Baltimore he had 4 out of 5 seasons with over 30 homers. I mean let's remember, when Raffy was fully healthy, he had 29 homers in college one season so its not like he was incapable of hitting for power prior to MLB. Point is, Palmeiro was one hell of a hitter with or without steroids.

In the post-roids era, baseball guys are generally on the decline by their early 30s. They can still be productive into their mid-30a, but you can clearly see they are on the decline. Holliday, cano, pujols, and many more were some of the best players in baseball through their 20s, but are now in the early to mid 30s and clearly aren't the players they used to be. Their power has dropped off, pujols struggles to hit for the same average, they get far more nagging injuries. Kinda like will clark's career went actually. From the mid-90s through the late-00s, guys would be BETTER in their mid-30s than they were in their mid to late 20s. You could sign a guy until the age of 40 and not be concerned about him being worthless for the last 5 seasons of the deal.

Palmeiro turned 30 right at the end of the 1994 season and then proceeds to hit 39, 39, 38, 43, 47, 39, 47, 43, and 38 HRs the next 9 seasons. His most in his 20s was 37, and 2nd most was 26. So you absolutely can't argue he just "filled out" when we have evidence in the modern MLB of guys that were way better than palmeiro in their 20s not being able to maintain their production well into their 30s. And it's not just palmeiro, that was a fairly typical trajectory for players of his era. Whereas guys like Clark and Griffey tended to have trajectories more in line with guys in the post-roid era, which is why people believe they were clean.

[dawgs]

OK, jumping hugely in one year now makes more sense to you than if you gradually increase your production over a 5 to 6 year period. Whatever, you've already made your mind up on it anyway the stats lay out. I saw Palmeiro hit through his entire college career while in school and he surely didn't need to have steroids to hit 25 to 30 HRs per year in the Majors. Granted, getting into the mid and upper 40s is somewhat questionable for sure.

It's not just the jump, it's the age at which he continued to blast homers. Statistically speaking, his 30s is one of the best decades ever by a MLB hitter. His 20s was nice but hardly elite. It makes no sense to be putting up mind boggling numbers as a 36 year old. Especially when most of your 20s was far from elite.

[Coach34]

OK, jumping hugely in one year now makes more sense to you than if you gradually increase your production over a 5 to 6 year period. Whatever, you've already made your mind up on it anyway the stats lay out.

Yes- because it was Clark's 1st and 2nd years. Players always get better after their rookie years. But to make that jump 6-7-8 years down the line doesnt happen

[Saltydog]

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/03/wait-someone-has-evidence-that-rafael-palmeiro-really-was-clean-and-is-unwilling-to-do-anything-about-it/

[Mjoelner34]

It's not just the jump, it's the age at which he continued to blast homers. Statistically speaking, his 30s is one of the best decades ever by a MLB hitter. His 20s was nice but hardly elite. It makes no sense to be putting up mind boggling numbers as a 36 year old. Especially when most of your 20s was far from elite.

How do you explain players putting up numbers like that during the pre-roid days? Hank Aaron hit 47, 34 and 40 when he was 37, 38 and 39. Plus, he hit the 40 in only 120 games. It can be done without roids. Not saying that Raffy didn't use them but other players pre-roid-era maintained into their later playing years. If you want to see roid evidence in stats, go look at Sosa's numbers from '97 to '98.

[dawgs]

How do you explain players putting up numbers like that during the pre-roid days? Hank Aaron hit 47, 34 and 40 when he was 37, 38 and 39. Plus, he hit the 40 in only 120 games. It can be done without roids. Not saying that Raffy didn't use them but other players pre-roid-era maintained into their later playing years. If you want to see roid evidence in stats, go look at Sosa's numbers from '97 to '98.

We don't know if Aaron was on something because testing was non-existent.

That said, palmeiro' career track is very typical of roid users, the best years of his career took place during the consensus roid era of MLB, he was named in the Mitchell report, he was called to testify before congress, and he tested positive in his final season. I'm sorry, but that's a whole lot of evidence of a guy that used steroid from at least the mid-90s thru the end of his career.

[dawgs]

Yes- because it was Clark's 1st and 2nd years. Players always get better after their rookie years. But to make that jump 6-7-8 years down the line doesnt happen

To me, his numbers in his during most of 20s aren't that indicative of a user. His contract year of 1993 was his 1st monster year, and logically it makes sense that if you have thought about doing it but have reservations, you are gonna do it when a monster season means you get paid serious money.

The jump to 26 and 22 HRs from 14-8-8-14 his 1st 4 seasons isn't that crazy, and corresponded with reaching what many consider to be coming into his peak power years. It was then going to a next level (40ish HR power) AND maintaining that level for a decade until he was almost 40 that's the red flag.

[Dawg61]

All the more reason- you don't just suddenly become a HR hitter at 30 after 6-7-8 yrs in MLB. It's nuts to think that. Nobody else in history has done that.

Jose Bautista

[Bubb Rubb]

Jose Bautista

He had the spike, but it hasn't been sustained like Raffy did. There's only four players in the history of the game with over 3000 hits and over 500 homers, and Raffy is one of them. This guy played at an MVP level for a decade after turning 30 and never looking to be an elite power bat to that point. The book on Raffy early was gap power and pop, not elite HR power.

[Dawg61]

He had the spike, but it hasn't been sustained like Raffy did. There's only four players in the history of the game with over 3000 hits and over 500 homers, and Raffy is one of them. This guy played at an MVP level for a decade after turning 30 and never looking to be an elite power bat to that point. The book on Raffy early was gap power and pop, not elite HR power.

Raffy is a HOF player. HOF is a joke popularity contest anyways. Doesn't even have two of the 5 best hitters of all-time in it.

[maroonmania]

It's not just the jump, it's the age at which he continued to blast homers. Statistically speaking, his 30s is one of the best decades ever by a MLB hitter. His 20s was nice but hardly elite. It makes no sense to be putting up mind boggling numbers as a 36 year old. Especially when most of your 20s was far from elite.

I have little doubt that he was using something to recover and sustain himself in his late 30s. You certainly won't get any argument from me on that. But with his hitting ability and with decent training and diet to build up a little muscle mass (which he had little to none of in his MSU career and the first part of his MLB career) I could certainly see his numbers in that 25 to 40 HR range being fairly legit that he hit from about age 26 to 35. He was certainly not a steriod bulked up looking guy like a Bonds for sure.

[maroonmania]

He had the spike, but it hasn't been sustained like Raffy did. There's only four players in the history of the game with over 3000 hits and over 500 homers, and Raffy is one of them. This guy played at an MVP level for a decade after turning 30 and never looking to be an elite power bat to that point. The book on Raffy early was gap power and pop, not elite HR power.

So this guy with no elite HR power ended his 3 year college career as the all-time SEC HR champion, a record which stood until Eddie Furniss (LSU) broke it 13 years later. Raffy is still the #4 all time HR hitter in the history of the SEC. He had a little more than just gap power and like I said, he did that when he was essentially still pretty skinny.

[Maroonthirteen]

I agree.

Also, Raffys HR numbers for each year parallel the total HR numbers of all of MLB. MLB saw an increase of HR numbers almost each year from the late 80s to 2000s. Maybe it was everyone was on roids. Maybe it was watered down pitching from expansion teams. Who knows, but to use his increase in HRs over a period of time as evidence for using roids....would suggest everyone with an increase over those years was juicing. Therefore, who cares if he did. But hr totals in and of themselves doesn't prove a thing.

[Really Clark?]

How do you explain players putting up numbers like that during the pre-roid days? Hank Aaron hit 47, 34 and 40 when he was 37, 38 and 39. Plus, he hit the 40 in only 120 games. It can be done without roids. Not saying that Raffy didn't use them but other players pre-roid-era maintained into their later playing years. If you want to see roid evidence in stats, go look at Sosa's numbers from '97 to '98.

Not to mention Ted Williams, Babe, Gehrig, Mike Schmidt, etc. Whether he did roids or not, when you start comparing all time greats in the 500 hr club you see several hitting bombs in their late 30's. Some stopped sooner because of age, living hard, or injuries. It is hard to just point at that stuff when you are dealing with HOF freaks. Even from the front side of the career, Musial didn't hit over 20 until he was 27 and in the league for 6 years.

[Really Clark?]

All the more reason- you don't just suddenly become a HR hitter at 30 after 6-7-8 yrs in MLB. It's nuts to think that. Nobody else in history has done that.

Stan Musial did. He didn't hit over 20 until he was around 27 I believe.

[maroonmania]

Musial didn't hit over 20 until he was 27 and in the league for 6 years.

But, but, C34 says nobody has ever done that in history. Must be a typo.

[Really Clark?]

We don't know if Aaron was on something because testing was non-existent.

That said, palmeiro' career track is very typical of roid users, the best years of his career took place during the consensus roid era of MLB, he was named in the Mitchell report, he was called to testify before congress, and he tested positive in his final season. I'm sorry, but that's a whole lot of evidence of a guy that used steroid from at least the mid-90s thru the end of his career.

Really?!? You are going to try and argue Aaron was possible on roids? You can trace PED use all the way back to 776 BC Olympic Games. But baseball players for the most part didn't believe in weight lifting during the season until modern times. Amphetamines, now a lot of guys used that during the 60's, etc. That is what was big during that time.

Now if you had said "Pud" Galvin, well that was another story.

[Homedawg]

Their last year the third starter was Harold Myles.

Um no it wasn't. Myles last year was 84. Will mcraney also drew some starts.

[dawgs]

Really?!? You are going to try and argue Aaron was possible on roids? You can trace PED use all the way back to 776 BC Olympic Games. But baseball players for the most part didn't believe in weight lifting during the season until modern times. Amphetamines, now a lot of guys used that during the 60's, etc. That is what was big during that time.

Now if you had said "Pud" Galvin, well that was another story.

Greenies is a PED today.

[dawgs]

I agree.

Also, Raffys HR numbers for each year parallel the total HR numbers of all of MLB. MLB saw an increase of HR numbers almost each year from the late 80s to 2000s. Maybe it was everyone was on roids. Maybe it was watered down pitching from expansion teams. Who knows, but to use his increase in HRs over a period of time as evidence for using roids....would suggest everyone with an increase over those years was juicing. Therefore, who cares if he did. But hr totals in and of themselves doesn't prove a thing.

Not necessarily everyone, but a lot of the guys that suddenly became huge power hitters were on PEDs. There's a reason the early to mid 90s through the mid 00s is called the steroid era. Because it was. That's why HRs as a whole skyrocketed and why as soon as baseball started cracking down on them, HRs plummeted. Not a coincidence.

[dawgs]

I have little doubt that he was using something to recover and sustain himself in his late 30s. You certainly won't get any argument from me on that. But with his hitting ability and with decent training and diet to build up a little muscle mass (which he had little to none of in his MSU career and the first part of his MLB career) I could certainly see his numbers in that 25 to 40 HR range being fairly legit that he hit from about age 26 to 35. He was certainly not a steriod bulked up looking guy like a Bonds for sure.

don't you think we know more about conditioning and training now than we knew 10-20 years ago? Yet HR totals even among the 25-35 range have plummeted. Almost every hitter starts showing significant regression by 31-33 these days, either sacrificing power to prop up avg or sacrificing avg to prop up power, but slash lines starts heading south regardless. There might be a few freaks that maintain production on par with their mid to late 20s into their mid to late 30s, but those are the freaks. Back in the 90s and early 00s, damn near everyone didn't just maintain their numbers into their 30s, but improved them! And as soon as stricter PED testing was implemented, those types of career arcs nearly disappeared. It's irrefutable fact.

[Really Clark?]

Greenies is a PED today.

But not a roid....totally different PED. They were trying to keep energized everyday. Remember, even in the late 60's, roids were still considered mostly for strength and muscle building which most baseball players did not want. Pro football was just starting experimenting in 63 with the Chargers "breakfast of champions".

I do believe it became more prevalent in the 70's in baseball when the Olympic knowledge came in that it wasn't just weightlifters, shot putters, etc using it. By the late 60's the East Germans developed the "Plan" so to speak for their entire team to begin widespread use and abuse. Then athetes began considering using it who were not bodybuilders and such.

Another thing that is never mentioned. There is a difference between guys using and abusing. I believe the numbers were closer to a majority of the players using cycles. I also believe Bonds, Sosa, and others became abusers. Both were wrong but a difference. And I suspect a lot used it for a little while or experimented. Except Maddux. He was a freak.

[Really Clark?]

don't you think we know more about conditioning and training now than we knew 10-20 years ago? Yet HR totals even among the 25-35 range have plummeted. Almost every hitter starts showing significant regression by 31-33 these days, either sacrificing power to prop up avg or sacrificing avg to prop up power, but slash lines starts heading south regardless. There might be a few freaks that maintain production on par with their mid to late 20s into their mid to late 30s, but those are the freaks. Back in the 90s and early 00s, damn near everyone didn't just maintain their numbers into their 30s, but improved them! And as soon as stricter PED testing was implemented, those types of career arcs nearly disappeared. It's irrefutable fact.


So how did the pre-roid HOF players maintain their numbers well into their 30's? And PED's is a wide range of substances. Not all will help increase power like roids. I believe that has to be separated. Like I mentioned above, go back and look at Babe, Williams, etc other guys numbers who are in the 500 hr club. You will find more than one pre-roid player hitting average or power or both with little or no drop off at 35, 36, etc. And some of those guys on that list would have had even better numbers but because of injuries or just hard living in the day shorten their careers. There is no doubt roids and HGH helped the modern players of the 80's through a few years ago. But when you discuss this HOF freaks you will find they are so elite, the best of the best, that the norms go out the windows. I do very much believe that Roids and HGH have made the bottom 80% of the players much better than they should have been and the elite even better but it has never been that unusual for a number of HOF players sustain success well into their 30's. Ted Williams 41 year old hit .316 with 29 hr, his last year with only 310 AB. Age 38, .388 38 hr 420 AB, age 37 .345 24 hr 400 AB. And the man missed his age 24-26 years while in the service. He was a freak, absolutely but don't tell me it is not possible for modern day HOF types to do those things today, barring injury.

ETA. While HR totals have dropped since the late 90's early 2000's spike, it is still as high as it has been since the mid 90's. And the HR percentage per AB has been pretty steady since 1993, which was pretty steady since 1949. But 2013 was the highest total at that point in time at 3.563 HR per AB. But what we do see is a big decline in BA the last 5 years and increase in strikeouts. What does all of this mean? I think a couple of things. I think the strike zone is still to the pitchers benefit but most importantly, I think with the philosophy that strikeouts do not matter, there is no longer a premium on guys who hit for average as well. More and more guys are trying to put up slugging numbers because the sabr guys believe that is better than just hit. But it is also coming at the expense of walks so they are also losing the obp they like as well. I understand and agree with a lot of the numbers but they are losing balance and we are losing good to great pure hitters because they are being told they have to put up more and more HR's and take walks. I think if we shift to developing more and more solid contact guys, then the actual runs per game will go back up and the HR totals may actually increase a little because are not trying to kill the ball every time they hit.

[Schultzy]

I'm certainly not, and you are absolutely correct. It was the cost of doing business at the time. It's less about the actual juicing, and more about how the denials were handled. He would've probably gained a lot more sympathy and won over some people if he would've just come out and said, you know what, I did what I had to do. People forgive easily. But the finger-wagging at congress and the tainted B12 argument don't come off well.

Being subpoenad by Congress was total bullshit too. Raffy gets persona non grata for life just because some sleazy Senators need some grandstanding time for the weekly news cycle.

Five players get subpoenad but where was Clemens? Where was Barry? And the other countless stars from that era hoping to make the Hall some day.

All of this because some politicians needed to look like the paragons of virtue on tv for a few days. Hell, even the owners and commissioner we're loving all these home runs and turning a blind eye to all the freakish/cartoonish superman muscles and then all that power and money couldn't keep them from getting called before Congress??!!

[Dawgcentral]

My opinion is that Raffy might have indulged to help himself heal up a bit with tweaked injuries. I never saw any abnormal "Bulking up", that we saw with so many athletes.

Anyone remember Lenny Dykstra? Dude went from 175 to something like 220 and looked like he was oozing hormones at the plate. At least Palmero didn't turn himself into a science project.

[dawgs]

So how did the pre-roid HOF players maintain their numbers well into their 30's? And PED's is a wide range of substances. Not all will help increase power like roids. I believe that has to be separated. Like I mentioned above, go back and look at Babe, Williams, etc other guys numbers who are in the 500 hr club. You will find more than one pre-roid player hitting average or power or both with little or no drop off at 35, 36, etc. And some of those guys on that list would have had even better numbers but because of injuries or just hard living in the day shorten their careers. There is no doubt roids and HGH helped the modern players of the 80's through a few years ago. But when you discuss this HOF freaks you will find they are so elite, the best of the best, that the norms go out the windows. I do very much believe that Roids and HGH have made the bottom 80% of the players much better than they should have been and the elite even better but it has never been that unusual for a number of HOF players sustain success well into their 30's. Ted Williams 41 year old hit .316 with 29 hr, his last year with only 310 AB. Age 38, .388 38 hr 420 AB, age 37 .345 24 hr 400 AB. And the man missed his age 24-26 years while in the service. He was a freak, absolutely but don't tell me it is not possible for modern day HOF types to do those things today, barring injury.

ETA. While HR totals have dropped since the late 90's early 2000's spike, it is still as high as it has been since the mid 90's. And the HR percentage per AB has been pretty steady since 1993, which was pretty steady since 1949. But 2013 was the highest total at that point in time at 3.563 HR per AB. But what we do see is a big decline in BA the last 5 years and increase in strikeouts. What does all of this mean? I think a couple of things. I think the strike zone is still to the pitchers benefit but most importantly, I think with the philosophy that strikeouts do not matter, there is no longer a premium on guys who hit for average as well. More and more guys are trying to put up slugging numbers because the sabr guys believe that is better than just hit. But it is also coming at the expense of walks so they are also losing the obp they like as well. I understand and agree with a lot of the numbers but they are losing balance and we are losing good to great pure hitters because they are being told they have to put up more and more HR's and take walks. I think if we shift to developing more and more solid contact guys, then the actual runs per game will go back up and the HR totals may actually increase a little because are not trying to kill the ball every time they hit.

You're right, there wasn't a disproportionate number of players smashing HRs at an accelerated rate well into their mid to late 30s from the mid 90s to the mid 00s.

Look, guys like Ruth and mantle and Williams are rare players, then suddenly we had dozens of players hitting like Ruth, mantle, and Williams well into the late 30s. Coincidentally most of them were named in the Mitchell report. If palmeiro simply had been 1 guy that did what he did without any of the surrounding facts, you could probably make a valid point that he's just an all-time great on par with Ruth, mantle, and Williams. However he did it in an era where a lot of other guys also did it well past where they should've regressed (it wasn't just 1 or 2 all time greats, literally dozens of players were putting up the best numbers of their careers after 35), and they were named in the Mitchell report, and many of them tested positive at some point. A guy like Griffey that regressed and got injured in his early 30s was a rarity back in that error. And as soon as stricter testing was in place, the rarity is the player putting up big numbers at 35+, and most teams are starting to learn you don't sign hitters until 40 years old anymore.

I'm sorry, but if you are have your head in the sand if you are trying to make an argument that palmeiro didn't take roids until he was caught or only took them mistakenly (after the Mitchell report and congress, I would have been extra vigilant about what I put in my body if I wasn't taking roids and didn't wanna take roids).

[dawgs]

Being subpoenad by Congress was total bullshit too. Raffy gets persona non grata for life just because some sleazy Senators need some grandstanding time for the weekly news cycle.

Five players get subpoenad but where was Clemens? Where was Barry? And the other countless stars from that era hoping to make the Hall some day.

All of this because some politicians needed to look like the paragons of virtue on tv for a few days. Hell, even the owners and commissioner we're loving all these home runs and turning a blind eye to all the freakish/cartoonish superman muscles and then all that power and money couldn't keep them from getting called before Congress??!!

The congress thing was ridiculous. However, that won't keep palmeiro out of the HoF if/when some of the roid era guys start getting the benefit of the doubt. What will keep palmeiro out will be the fact that he TESTED POSITIVE FOR STEROIDS. A lot of the guys that might eventually get the benefit of the doubt will get it because they never actually tested positive.

[dawgs]

My opinion is that Raffy might have indulged to help himself heal up a bit with tweaked injuries. I never saw any abnormal "Bulking up", that we saw with so many athletes.

Anyone remember Lenny Dykstra? Dude went from 175 to something like 220 and looked like he was oozing hormones at the plate. At least Palmero didn't turn himself into a science project.

Palmeiro went from 180 lb early in his career to a listed 215 lb with the Orioles. And he looks bigger than that in the pictures. Just because not everyone pulled a Barry bonds doesn't mean they didn't use roids to gain strength and power.

[tcdog70]

Palmeiro went from 180 lb early in his career to a listed 215 lb with the Orioles. And he looks bigger than that in the pictures. Just because not everyone pulled a Barry bonds doesn't mean they didn't use roids to gain strength and power.
You don't think Clark got bigger as he matured. He didn't roid up. Thirty pounds isn't that much to put on in twenty years.

[Really Clark?]

N
You're right, there wasn't a disproportionate number of players smashing HRs at an accelerated rate well into their mid to late 30s from the mid 90s to the mid 00s.

Look, guys like Ruth and mantle and Williams are rare players, then suddenly we had dozens of players hitting like Ruth, mantle, and Williams well into the late 30s. Coincidentally most of them were named in the Mitchell report. If palmeiro simply had been 1 guy that did what he did without any of the surrounding facts, you could probably make a valid point that he's just an all-time great on par with Ruth, mantle, and Williams. However he did it in an era where a lot of other guys also did it well past where they should've regressed (it wasn't just 1 or 2 all time greats, literally dozens of players were putting up the best numbers of their careers after 35), and they were named in the Mitchell report, and many of them tested positive at some point. A guy like Griffey that regressed and got injured in his early 30s was a rarity back in that error. And as soon as stricter testing was in place, the rarity is the player putting up big numbers at 35+, and most teams are starting to learn you don't sign hitters until 40 years old anymore.

I'm sorry, but if you are have your head in the sand if you are trying to make an argument that palmeiro didn't take roids until he was caught or only took them mistakenly (after the Mitchell report and congress, I would have been extra vigilant about what I put in my body if I wasn't taking roids and didn't wanna take roids).

At no point have I tried to defend him or any other player during the roid era. Already said it is a big taint to the game. My point is that the freaks throughout history have done similar things. You can't just look at ONE player's numbers and say "see it was the roids". There is no doubt, like I said roids boosted the bottom players and enhanced the elite numbers. The problem is some of our true HOF types would have had long productive careers without the roids. It's a shame the whole era is tainted and we can't tell who is truly our generations Williams, Babe, Aaron. But even Ortiz and Miggy will carry a stigma, for right or wrong.

[Really Clark?]

Palmeiro went from 180 lb early in his career to a listed 215 lb with the Orioles. And he looks bigger than that in the pictures. Just because not everyone pulled a Barry bonds doesn't mean they didn't use roids to gain strength and power.

Man thats really not that much over 5-6 years. Very easy to do without illegal supplements.

[State82]

Man thats really not that much over 5-6 years. Very easy to do without illegal supplements.

Dang straight! I did it in a couple years with 2 perfectly legal supplements----Hostess and Dolly Madison.

[Dawg61]

Every player from the steroid era with numbers that would normally put them in the HOF needs to be put into the HOF. Why? Because their market dictated that they had to do it themselves to keep up. No way possible to single out only a few. MLB turned a blind eye to it because they needed the fans to comeback after the strike. By turning a blind eye they were encouraging it. They knew about it and didn't care because the homerun chases by McGwire, Sosa and Bonds skyrocketed baseball's popularity. MLB is guilty for the steroids. They are the ones that should get punished not the players. Players had no choice really when the market started paying high dollar salaries to steroid users. Players had to keep up or face losing their jobs. Get paid $100 mill or get $5 mill and fired after 3 years? There was no choice for them. Don't act like there was.

[dawgs]

Man thats really not that much over 5-6 years. Very easy to do without illegal supplements.

Do y'all even comprehend the context of my response? Dawgcentral talks about Lenny dykstra obviously roiding because he went from 175 to 220, and that palmeiro didn't do that. I'm pointing out he essentially went thru the same weight gain. (And here I'll note that my brief Google efforts show dykstra weighed in at 160-167 lb early in his career and weighed 185-195 lb towards the end of his career...so not sure where the extra 25-35 lbs came from.)

Lotta defensive maroon glasses in this thread.

[dawgs]

N

At no point have I tried to defend him or any other player during the roid era. Already said it is a big taint to the game. My point is that the freaks throughout history have done similar things. You can't just look at ONE player's numbers and say "see it was the roids". There is no doubt, like I said roids boosted the bottom players and enhanced the elite numbers. The problem is some of our true HOF types would have had long productive careers without the roids. It's a shame the whole era is tainted and we can't tell who is truly our generations Williams, Babe, Aaron. But even Ortiz and Miggy will carry a stigma, for right or wrong.

I'm not isolating 1 player though, I've consistently pointed out the era palmeiro played in along with all the other evidence, INCLUDING A POSITIVE TEST, when saying you have your head in the sand about his roiding. If trout puts up big numbers well into his 30s, while his peers all drop off after they hit 30, then there won't be any doubt because he's playing in an era of regular roid testing. He'll just be considered alongside the rest of the all-time greats.

[Really Clark?]

I'm not isolating 1 player though, I've consistently pointed out the era palmeiro played in along with all the other evidence, INCLUDING A POSITIVE TEST, when saying you have your head in the sand about his roiding. If trout puts up big numbers well into his 30s, while his peers all drop off after they hit 30, then there won't be any doubt because he's playing in an era of regular roid testing. He'll just be considered alongside the rest of the all-time greats.

Good grief man. I'm not defending him or anyone else during the roid era. I've already said I believe a majority of the players used. I was just showing that the idea that someone couldn't put up the numbers he did late into his 30's without them is incorrect. Players have done that during different eras. That was all I was pointing out. Not a defense of him nor do I have my head in the sand about his possible use.

[Really Clark?]

Do y'all even comprehend the context of my response? Dawgcentral talks about Lenny dykstra obviously roiding because he went from 175 to 220, and that palmeiro didn't do that. I'm pointing out he essentially went thru the same weight gain. (And here I'll note that my brief Google efforts show dykstra weighed in at 160-167 lb early in his career and weighed 185-195 lb towards the end of his career...so not sure where the extra 25-35 lbs came from.)

Lotta defensive maroon glasses in this thread.

Dude. There is no maroon glasses here about this. A 30-40 lb muscle gain is just not hard over the time we are talking about. Heck he should gain weight during that time. I know I did at 30. :)

[maroonmania]

Well the debate can go on and on, I guess the only thing we can say for sure is that there was definitely a time that Raffy had Stanozolol in his body toward the very end of his career, however it got there. All I can say is that watching him in the season of 1984 (the SEC triple crown year), Raffy was the best pure college hitter druing that time that these eyes have ever seen (.415 avg, 29 HRs, 94 RBIs). Even his outs were hit hard.

[tcdog70]

I think it needs to be said that Raffy took several drug test both before and after his positive test. And they all tested negative. Until Ralph admits that he took Roids knowingly, I'm going with Him-.

[Homedawg]

I think it needs to be said that Raffy took several drug test both before and after his positive test. And they all tested negative. Until Ralph admits that he took Roids knowingly, I'm going with Him-.

Yea. Oj didn't do it either. Just waiting for him to admit it, then I'll believe he killed em****

[tcdog70]

Yea. Oj didn't do it either. Just waiting for him to admit it, then I'll believe he killed em****

Oj and Raffy good analogy . Eat shit and run rabbits

[Homedawg]

Oj and Raffy good analogy . Eat shit and run rabbits

Crimes not the same, but the guilt is. Only a blind man can't see it.

[maroonmania]

Oj and Raffy good analogy . Eat shit and run rabbits

Yea, great analogy, double homicide compared to taking a PED while playing sports. Admitting to one probably gets you the chair while admitting to the other probably gets you some measure of forgiveness. One consequence of admission is not quite like the other.

[tcdog70]

Meanwhile ARod homers to tie Willie Mays and all is well.