Ray vs Williams - a better comparison

[1bigdawg]

Everyone seems to want to compare Ray to other coaches we have had, but the situation he took over is more similar to the situations when Williams took over.

Williams Ray
All SEC Pos All SEC Pos
1st Yr 7-21 3-15 10th (Last) 10-22 4-14 13th-t (last)
2nd 14-15 6-12 8th-t 14-19 3-15 14th
3rd 13-15 7-11 8th 13-18 6-12 12th

Pretty comparable. Williams tied for 8th again before tieing for 1st with a largely senior group in 1991. He used that group as a recruiting springboard to get the guys who made it to the sweet sixteen. Before someone else points it out, he also changed assistants before the 1991 season. I don't know whether that was forced on him or not. As you know, Stansbury was one of the new assistants.

[thf24]

I've seen people say that the difference between Williams' poor first three years and Ray's is that our expectations our a lot higher now than when Williams took over. While that's absolutely true, I'm not sure how that makes a shred of difference as to how long it should take to turn around a similar situation.

[Dawg61]

What isn't as comparable is college basketball in 1991 to cbb in 2015.

[TheDogFather]

I've seen people say that the difference between Williams' poor first three years and Ray's is that our expectations our a lot higher now than when Williams took over. While that's absolutely true, I'm not sure how that makes a shred of difference as to how long it should take to turn around a similar situation.

Are we going to compare our next football coach to Croom or Mullen?

[Coach34]

Exactly- very good post. Hell, the talent Williams had when he took over was better than what Ray took over.

Williams and John Brady recruited that 1st good group of guys that won the SEC in 1991. Brady moved on and Stands came in. We had a couple of average years but then that great group from 94-96 came in.

It took Williams 5 years to get over the hump and into the NCAA's.

[thf24]

Are we going to compare our next football coach to Croom or Mullen?

Not sure how that's relevant here.

ETA: Stansbury didn't take over a program in the same state that Mullen did. This isn't about overall performance and expectations; it's about starts under similar circumstances, and the Ray/Williams comparison fits that a whole lot better than Ray/Stansbury.

[Coach34]

Are we going to compare our next football coach to Croom or Mullen?

depends how Mullen leaves the program when he exits

[Schultzy]

What isn't as comparable is college basketball in 1991 to cbb in 2015.

True, there just aren't very many good basketball players to recruit anymore, it's all about getting that one great player. I don't know if that makes it easier or harder to build a program back from scratch but high school hoops was much better back then and the players had better fundamentals in my opinion.

[Liverpooldawg]

Everyone seems to want to compare Ray to other coaches we have had, but the situation he took over is more similar to the situations when Williams took over.

Williams Ray
All SEC Pos All SEC Pos
1st Yr 7-21 3-15 10th (Last) 10-22 4-14 13th-t (last)
2nd 14-15 6-12 8th-t 14-19 3-15 14th
3rd 13-15 7-11 8th 13-18 6-12 12th

Pretty comparable. Williams tied for 8th again before tieing for 1st with a largely senior group in 1991. He used that group as a recruiting springboard to get the guys who made it to the sweet sixteen. Before someone else points it out, he also changed assistants before the 1991 season. I don't know whether that was forced on him or not. As you know, Stansbury was one of the new assistants.

The situation wasn't similar at all. We hadn't done anything to amount to anything in the 20 years prior to Williams. I think we had 1 NIT appearance where we were one and done to Alcorn State. Ray came into what had been one of the more solid programs in the SEC over the last 20 years. The situation was VASTLY different.

[IMissJack]

The difference-Richard Williams was an alum that took over a team that had not been relevant in 20+years. Also, while his first teams showed improvement on the court, and the alumni could feel that the team was getting better, record or not.

[Schultzy]

The situation wasn't similar at all. We hadn't done anything to amount to anything in the 20 years prior to Williams. I think we had 1 NIT appearance where we were one and done to Alcorn State. Ray came into what had been one of the more solid programs in the SEC over the last 20 years. The situation was VASTLY different.

You think Ray inherited a good situation?!!?? This is why we can not have a reasonable discussion when it comes to our current coach.
Ray will need next year's senior class to have a good year and this recruiting class to show a good bit of promise for him to make it.
But to hear people say Ray inherited even a decent situation makes me apoplectic.

[Liverpooldawg]

You think Ray inherited a good situation?!!?? This is why we can not have a reasonable discussion when it comes to our current coach.
Ray will need next year's senior class to have a good year and this recruiting class to show a good bit of promise for him to make it.
But to hear people say Ray inherited even a decent situation makes me apoplectic.

As bad as Ray's was, it wasn't nearly as bad as what Williams took over. I lived that one as a student.

[Coach34]

As bad as Ray's was, it wasn't nearly as bad as what Williams took over. I lived that one as a student.

We'll just have to disagree. While we had had some success- what Ray took over was a complete dumpsterfire cluster****. The roster had been gutted- and then got gutted some more during the Summer and subsequent Fall because of all the drug problems and injuries.

[Dawg61]

You think Ray inherited a good situation?!!?? This is why we can not have a reasonable discussion when it comes to our current coach.
Ray will need next year's senior class to have a good year and this recruiting class to show a good bit of promise for him to make it.
But to hear people say Ray inherited even a decent situation makes me apoplectic.

Sorry but I just view what Ray stepped into as a coaches dream opportunity and not the bleak horrible scenario yall like to paint. If I'm any type of a decent coach I will have a pride and cockiness about me. I would look at MSU as an SEC school with lots of growth happening, lots of money, an almost completely free roster open for me signing anyone I want that I can get in a state and area LOADED with freakish athletes.

Ray's problem is he can't coach offense at all. He has zero ability to improve a players shooting, passing and dribbling and he doesn't understand offensive plays and how an offense needs to be able to work to score. Ray is terrible at basketball himself. I know that without having watched him play for one second. Ray knows how to work hard and hustle. I love that about Ray. There's lots about Ray that I do really like. He HAS cleaned up the program. It's very nice to have players not transferring or quitting or getting kicked off. It's also very nice to not have fat asses and bean poles on the team anymore because we actually use our S&C program. But in the end Ray's lack of offensive mind and lack of ability to develop players WILL be the death of him. He can't escape his fate he can not stop it from happening. Only by some miracle of Malik Newman or somehow Tookie Monster is a god king can Ray be saved from his fate for now.

[Schultzy]

As bad as Ray's was, it wasn't nearly as bad as what Williams took over. I lived that one as a student.

I was at those games as well and Richard inherited a 12 man roster, not great but it did have 5 star 6'11" Hubert Henderson from Georgia that Hugh Durham wanted badly post Dominique but was a bust mostly but averaged 14ppg. Greg Lockhart, scoring pg from Memphis highly recruited. Tracy Taylor who was small but could shoot. PF big body Blakey and Vitale favorite freshman Reginald Boykin.

Not great I know but no way we can say it was much worse. At least they could practice 5 on 5 scrimmages, Rays roster wasn't big enough to even do that.

[Schultzy]

Can't teach shooting and dribbling?!! Damn son, you better be able to do that way before you get to an SEC campus. And you don't know if he's a good offensive coach or not, Mike Kryscheski or John Wooden couldnt get this team to shoot well or score.

And your point about freakish athletes, honestly. Good basketball players are few and far between these days at the high school level. Basketball is way down in Mississippi and Alabama high schools.

[tcdog70]

The difference-Richard Williams was an alum that took over a team that had not been relevant in 20+years. Also, while his first teams showed improvement on the court, and the alumni could feel that the team was getting better, record or not.

You have to remember 60-70s and into the 80s only the winner of the Sec got to the big dance. And 1 went to the NIT. We finished second in 78 and went nowhere. Once again KY cheated us out of a win in Lexington after we beat them in Starkville.it pissed Ron Greene off that we didn't even get into the NIT and he went back to Murray State. The next year we finished second again and the Who Dat game was in the NIT. Both those teams were as good as any ever at MSU.

[Coach34]

Sorry but I just view what Ray stepped into as a coaches dream opportunity and not the bleak horrible scenario yall like to paint. If I'm any type of a decent coach I will have a pride and cockiness about me. I would look at MSU as an SEC school with lots of growth happening, lots of money, an almost completely free roster open for me signing anyone I want that I can get in a state and area LOADED with freakish athletes.

Our basketball budget is at the bottom of the SEC...as is our coaches pay- Money? Uhhhh no. Ray was hired late that first year and had no chance to bring anybody in worth a shit. Should he have better options than Bloodman and Endo by now? Absolutely- but dont act like he took over a goldmine. Thats horseshit- especially with whats come out of Mississippi the last 2 years out of HS

[Liverpooldawg]

We'll just have to disagree. While we had had some success- what Ray took over was a complete dumpsterfire cluster****. The roster had been gutted- and then got gutted some more during the Summer and subsequent Fall because of all the drug problems and injuries.

LOL. Williams inherited probably the worst team we have ever had at MSU INCUDING RAY'S FIRST ONE, and the program was DEAD. It had been dead for YEARS. Ray didn't inherit much talent, but the program was solid and had been solid for years. Just a question for reference: How old are you coach? Do you actually see the Boyd years and the Williams transition? Richard had to build a PROGRAM from the ground up. I'm not talking about a team of players, I'm talking about a program. There is a BIG difference.

[Liverpooldawg]

I was at those games as well and Richard inherited a 12 man roster, not great but it did have 5 star 6'11" Hubert Henderson from Georgia that Hugh Durham wanted badly post Dominique but was a bust mostly but averaged 14ppg. Greg Lockhart, scoring pg from Memphis highly recruited. Tracy Taylor who was small but could shoot. PF big body Blakey and Vitale favorite freshman Reginald Boykin.

Not great I know but no way we can say it was much worse. At least they could practice 5 on 5 scrimmages, Rays roster wasn't big enough to even do that.

Ray won more games his first year than Richard did. That team was TERRIBLE.

[tcdog70]

LOL. Williams inherited probably the worst team we have ever had at MSU INCUDING RAY'S FIRST ONE, and the program was DEAD. It had been dead for YEARS. Ray didn't inherit much talent, but the program was solid and had been solid for years. Just a question for reference: How old are you coach? Do you actually see the Boyd years and the Williams transition? Richard had to build a PROGRAM from the ground up. I'm not talking about a team of players, I'm talking about a program. There is a BIG difference.

He can't be very Old. he didn't even know who Ron Greene was. He never saw the bulldogs of the 60-70-and early 80s.

[Liverpooldawg]

You have to remember 60-70s and into the 80s only the winner of the Sec got to the big dance. And 1 went to the NIT. We finished second in 78 and went nowhere. Once again KY cheated us out of a win in Lexington after we beat them in Starkville.it pissed Ron Greene off that we didn't even get into the NIT and he went back to Murray State. The next year we finished second again and the Who Dat game was in the NIT. Both those teams were as good as any ever at MSU.

Those were the only two teams worth mentioning in that stretch. Now remind me again what we did under Richard and Stans in the 20 years that preceded Ray? Ray inherited a program that won 20 games the year before he took over. He lost the talent but the program was and still is there. Richard inherited a team that nobody really cared about. There was no program associated with it. Ray had to build team to live in the house. Richard had to build the house.

[sorrydog]

Never understood why Geno from Booneville (now a GA Bulldog) wasn't good enough to be part of our depleted team.
Is that Williams, Standsbury, or Ray's bad judgement?

[Dawg61]

Can't teach shooting and dribbling?!! Damn son, you better be able to do that way before you get to an SEC campus. And you don't know if he's a good offensive coach or not, Mike Kryscheski or John Wooden couldnt get this team to shoot well or score.

With a veteran team Ray is 310th in PPG and 346th in assits per game. It's his third straight season with HORRIBLE offensive production. At this point we know he's not a good offensive coach.

[Dawg61]

Our basketball budget is at the bottom of the SEC...as is our coaches pay- Money? Uhhhh no. Ray was hired late that first year and had no chance to bring anybody in worth a shit. Should he have better options than Bloodman and Endo by now? Absolutely- but dont act like he took over a goldmine. Thats horseshit- especially with whats come out of Mississippi the last 2 years out of HS

Didn't our athletic budget just reach 100 mill? Didn't we just pay Mullen over $4 mill per season? Can't we afford $2 mill per season for a basketball HC? Don't we have an eight figure piggie bank donated solely for the purpose of paying coaches? We can afford a top 25 HC in basketball.