So next year,

[TheDogFather]

What should our expectations be for mens' basketball?

[smootness]

What should our expectations be for mens' basketball?

Minimum expectation is NIT, though I won't be satisfied unless we're at least in the NCAA discussion.

[Coach34]

Post season at a minimum

[msstate7]

At least nit, close the deal on his best recruiting class so far, and see development in Houston, black, and ndoye.

[bluelightstar]

post season? is that really it?

NCAA bubble at worst.

[smootness]

post season? is that really it?

NCAA bubble at worst.

Minimum...as in, if not, Ray should absolutely be gone.

If we make the NIT and do the other things msstate7 indicated, maybe not.

[Coach34]

I cant see us firing him after next season if he makes the NIT. He has no off the court issues and recruiting is getting better. I may be wrong- but as usual- I doubt it.

[msstate7]

I cant see us firing him after next season if he makes the NIT. He has no off the court issues and recruiting is getting better. I may be wrong- but as usual- I doubt it.

Nit = 1-2 year extension
Ncaa = 3-4 year extension

[Todd4State]

I would be happy with the NIT right now personally.

[maroonmania]

Post season at a minimum

Agreed, but its going to take tremendous improvement over this year just to sniff the NIT.

[Coach34]

Agreed, but its going to take tremendous improvement over this year just to sniff the NIT.

It really wont.

If IJ and Sword had been healthy- we'd be 16-14 right now this year. Having no bench has cost us 4-5 games easy. There is absolutely no reason we shouldnt be an NIT team at worst next year.

[maroonmania]

It really wont.

If IJ and Sword had been healthy- we'd be 16-14 right now this year. Having no bench has cost us 4-5 games easy. There is absolutely no reason we shouldnt be an NIT team at worst next year.

You are really being simplistic about this. IJ and Sword are healthy NOW and we still aren't very good. We can't make shots. Our only hope for next year is that Q and Tookie provide us some instant perimeter shooting or we will still be around a .500 record. Since we aren't going to get Malik we REALLY needed a JUCO scorer like OM got with Moody as a transfer.

[Coach34]

You are really being simplistic about this. IJ and Sword are healthy NOW and we still aren't very good. We can't make shots. Our only hope for next year is that Q and Tookie provide us some instant perimeter shooting or we will still be around a .500 record. Since we aren't going to get Malik we REALLY needed a JUCO scorer like OM got with Moody as a transfer.

But had they been healthy ALL YEAR- we wouldnt have lost those games in December- giving us a 16-14 record right now- 17-14 after beating Mizzou

Our lack of a bench with Bloodman and Endo- plus Houston and Black being green has cost us quite a few games. We have lost quite a few games by 6 points or less. A better bench bridges that 6 point gap.

This shit aint hard to see if you look objectively. We play good D- but are offensively limited with no decent bench. The bench will improve next season.

[bluelightstar]

But had they been healthy ALL YEAR- we wouldnt have lost those games in December- giving us a 16-14 record right now.

Our lack of a bench with Bloodman and Endo- plus Houston and Black being green has cost us quite a few games. We have lost quite a few games by 6 points or less. A better bench bridges that 6 point gap.

This shit aint hard to see if you look objectively. We play good D- but are offensively limited with no decent bench. The bench will improve next season.

For some reason, I'm pretty sure we'll be having this debate again next season when we have 10+ SEC losses.

[CottonDog]

Well. We fired our previous coach for making the NIt, so I'd say we should expect the NCAAs.

[thf24]

Well. We fired our previous coach for making the NIt, so I'd say we should expect the NCAAs.

No, we did not. Please let's not let this fallacy turn this into another shit show of a thread.

[Coach34]

For some reason, I'm pretty sure we'll be having this debate again next season when we have 10+ SEC losses.

and if we are- the decision to fire his ass will be easy

[Coach34]

Well. We fired our previous coach for making the NIt, .

thats not even close to the truth

[missouridawg]

Nit = 1-2 year extension
Ncaa = 3-4 year extension

You can really hamper yourself in recruiting if you give a coach a non max extension. Setting him up to fail, essentially.

[CottonDog]

thats not even close to the truth

I want you to say that had he gone to the NCAAT his last year we still would have forced him out. Say that. Please.

[ScottH]

I saw all of the preseason games in person except SC Upstate.

At full strength I am fairly certain we beat TCU, Tulane, Brady, SC Upstate, & Oregon State.

That puts us at 17-13.

At least .500 in sec and NIT next year - both at a minimum.

[dickiedawg]

These are the same expectations from the start of this year. Full roster=no excuses.

[Coach34]

I want you to say that had he gone to the NCAAT his last year we still would have forced him out. Say that. Please.

They would have still put the same demands on him to continue coaching- the shit show was embarrassing. And thats the thing I've tried to convey for 11 years- his lack of discipline was going to constantly cost us no matter what talent he had. His lack of discipline cost us numerous times. Keenum and Strick finally put their foot down- and would have regardless of the 2012's outcome. It was ridiculous

[CottonDog]

That's your opinion, 34. Based off of the past, had he made the NCAAT that year, he would have stayed. No one was calling for him to be fired due to disiclpine problems when he went to the NCAAT 7/9 years. Nope. It was after he went NIT, none, NIT.

[HailState39110]

Here is the reason why I think we will be NIT bubble at best:

Usually around 4 or 5 SEC teams make the NCAAs . Kentucky, LSU, TExas AM , Florida , and Arkansas will all be pretty damn good next and will have recruited at a MUCH higher level than us . Kentucky will be Kentucky . LSU and TAMU are bringing in Kentucky-like recruiting classes and Florida is much like us and returning everybody . So this will most likely be you NCAA field next year.

This leaves us battling it out to be 1 of about 3 SEC teams to make the NIT. We will have to be in that next tier and be better than OM, UGA, Auburn, Tennessee , Vanderbilt , etc. It's possible but best possible scenario I see us squeaking in the NIT

[JohnnyQuid]

You can really hamper yourself in recruiting if you give a coach a non max extension. Setting him up to fail, essentially.

You can really hamper your program if you give a shitty coach a max extension. Kinda goes both ways, better know what the hell you're doing i guess.

[Coach34]

That's your opinion, 34. Based off of the past, had he made the NCAAT that year, he would have stayed. No one was calling for him to be fired due to disiclpine problems when he went to the NCAAT 7/9 years. Nope. It was after he went NIT, none, NIT.

What???? Stands went to 6 NCAA's in 14 years. There was no 7 in 9 years. Stands had a great 4 year run from 2002-2005. That was never happening again. 2 NCAA's his last 7 years- one with a lucky SEC Tourney run got us a 13 seed

[CottonDog]

6 out of 9. My bad. I struggle with math sometimes. 01-09 he went 6 times. He was fired after not making it 3 years in a row. Based off of that standard, your buddy Ray should be too. But that's not what we were talking about. There is no way we fire our last coach if he made the NCAAT his last year. And you know that's true.

[Coach34]

6 out of 9. My bad. I struggle with math sometimes. 01-09 he went 6 times. He was fired after not making it 3 years in a row. Based off of that standard, your buddy Ray should be too. But that's not what we were talking about. There is no way we fire our last coach if he made the NCAAT his last year. And you know that's true.

we'll just agree to disagree

[CottonDog]

Haha. I thought so. Have a good evening. Let's win the rubber game tomorrow.

[codeDawg]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our current coach isn't as good as our last one, but neither should be at MSU.

[MSUDawg4Life]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our current coach isn't as good as our last one, but neither should be at MSU.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our last coach wasn't good.

[Homedawg]

6 out of 9. My bad. I struggle with math sometimes. 01-09 he went 6 times. He was fired after not making it 3 years in a row. Based off of that standard, your buddy Ray should be too. But that's not what we were talking about. There is no way we fire our last coach if he made the NCAAT his last year. And you know that's true.

Well if he hadn't chickened boned w one of his most talented teams and actually made the tournament we would know what the result would have been instead of guessing.

[mcdawg]

What should our expectations be for mens' basketball?

We better hope that we can fill up the bottom of the gym - but I don't think we will. People have given up, and I have talked to many more that will not renew their tickets for next year. (I know that I will not.)

[mcdawg]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our last coach wasn't good.

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our present coach is much worse than our previous coach.

[bluelightstar]

I'm not sure why it's so hard for everyone to grasp that our present coach is much worse than our previous coach.

Everyone knows that but Coach34.

[Coach34]

Everyone knows that but Coach34.

coaching? Hell no
recruiting? Hell yes

[bluelightstar]

coaching? Hell no
recruiting? Hell yes

You'll win more games by being a good recruiter than by being a good 'coach' in SEC basketball.

[Coach34]

You'll win more games by being a good recruiter than by being a good 'coach' in SEC basketball.

yep

[War Machine Dawg]

That's your opinion, 34. Based off of the past, had he made the NCAAT that year, he would have stayed. No one was calling for him to be fired due to disiclpine problems when he went to the NCAAT 7/9 years. Nope. It was after he went NIT, none, NIT.

That's because he caught lightning in a bottle for about 3 of those years with a group of players in Z, Bowers, L-Rob, Power, Vincent, etc. who were high character guys who policed themselves. Stands didn't have to discipline those guys because they stayed out of trouble. But you saw things change when the group of Jamont, Hansbrough, Rhodes, Sharp, and the Delks came to town. And it actually started just prior to that with Ervin. How many other staffs nationally let a player transfer not just within their conference, but within their division? I can't remember one. That alone should tell you who had whom by the proverbial balls. And it got worse year after year, ultimately culminating in the Sidney fiasco.

The fact that so many seem to think Sidney was the problem with the program instead of a glaring symptom of the problem is mind boggling. Stans had to go. Period. Where we ****ed up was hiring Ray, not firing Stans. But as usual, there's a group of "MSU" fans who are more loyal to the coach than the school and either can't or won't accept that idea. I lean towards "won't" at this point, but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt.

[preachermatt83]

What should our expectations be for mens' basketball?

Try real hard**

[mcdawg]

coaching? Hell no
recruiting? Hell yes

Ray is not a better coach - you can spin it how you want. Our offensive game plan is awful - motion until the clock runs down and then a bad shot. (Unless we turn it over and not even take a shot.) The only thing I will give him is not having his kids on the bench and his wife screaming in the "stands" (but I bet his wife is like the few fans at the game - she is probably looking at her I-phone and not watching the game).

[Liverpooldawg]

What should our expectations be for mens' basketball?

I'm going to give you two answers: 1) based on where we are in the current regime and what our expectations ought to be given the 4th year and a veteran returning club; a NCAA appearance at the least. 2) given where we actually ARE and what we have returning; about what we did this year.

[CottonDog]

That's because he caught lightning in a bottle for about 3 of those years with a group of players in Z, Bowers, L-Rob, Power, Vincent, etc. who were high character guys who policed themselves. Stands didn't have to discipline those guys because they stayed out of trouble. But you saw things change when the group of Jamont, Hansbrough, Rhodes, Sharp, and the Delks came to town. And it actually started just prior to that with Ervin. How many other staffs nationally let a player transfer not just within their conference, but within their division? I can't remember one. That alone should tell you who had whom by the proverbial balls. And it got worse year after year, ultimately culminating in the Sidney fiasco.

The fact that so many seem to think Sidney was the problem with the program instead of a glaring symptom of the problem is mind boggling. Stans had to go. Period. Where we ****ed up was hiring Ray, not firing Stans. But as usual, there's a group of "MSU" fans who are more loyal to the coach than the school and either can't or won't accept that idea. I lean towards "won't" at this point, but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Well this "loyal fan of a Stans" has most likely been to more of Ray's games than you have. Stans was a friend of my family. Was I sad to see him leave? You bet. Was it time for a change? I'd say yes Was Rick Ray the answer? Doesn't look like it. I support Mississippi State first and foremost, not a coach. We forced out our winningest coach in school history and hired a guy from a school who's fans probably didn't know who he was (and from Clemson which is a garbage program). And it's not working out. Stans had grown complacent. I wasn't happy with his last 3 years, but if our plan was to fire Stans and hire someone with Ray's resume, yes I am upset we got rid of Stans. At least his teams were competitive.

[Johnson85]

I want you to say that had he gone to the NCAAT his last year we still would have forced him out. Say that. Please.

This is BS. If you have an employee 17ing his secretary, youd probably keep him around if he was making you $1m a year. But if his production fell to $200k, and you fired him, you wouldn't say he was fired for making you less than $1M. Every honest person would say he was fired for 17ing his secretary, not for only netting his employees $200k.

[shannondawg]

Either playing with the baby or texting. I sit right behind her and vouch for that, At least the two games I made this year..

Ray is not a better coach - you can spin it how you want. Our offensive game plan is awful - motion until the clock runs down and then a bad shot. (Unless we turn it over and not even take a shot.) The only thing I will give him is not having his kids on the bench and his wife screaming in the "stands" (but I bet his wife is like the few fans at the game - she is probably looking at her I-phone and not watching the game).

[Dawg61]

Well this "loyal fan of a Stans" has most likely been to more of Ray's games than you have. Stans was a friend of my family. Was I sad to see him leave? You bet. Was it time for a change? I'd say yes Was Rick Ray the answer? Doesn't look like it. I support Mississippi State first and foremost, not a coach. We forced out our winningest coach in school history and hired a guy from a school who's fans probably didn't know who he was (and from Clemson which is a garbage program). And it's not working out. Stans had grown complacent. I wasn't happy with his last 3 years, but if our plan was to fire Stans and hire someone with Ray's resume, yes I am upset we got rid of Stans. At least his teams were competitive.

Good point. How many Clemson fans knew who Rick Ray was when he got hired? 10-20? Less than 100 for sure.

[codeDawg]

It's not hard guys. Our previous coach had a successful career at MSU, but his tenure had hit a natural end. Scott then proceeded to screw up the hire of the next coach.

Coach, I get you feel the need to defend your position on Standsbury since you pushed it so hard, but you were right then and there is no reason to defend the current situation based on that. It's the hire, not the fire that's a problem.

[Dawgface]

Realistic expectations? Barely above 500.

[sorrydog]

Expectations? I'm betting on a couple of knees, a couple of backs, and a couple of threads about Stans.
Wins? we'll be less than .500

[CottonDog]

This is BS. If you have an employee 17ing his secretary, youd probably keep him around if he was making you $1m a year. But if his production fell to $200k, and you fired him, you wouldn't say he was fired for making you less than $1M. Every honest person would say he was fired for 17ing his secretary, not for only netting his employees $200k.

But he was fired for making less than$1M. So in your hypothetical, every "honest person" would be lying. If the secretary really mattered to you, you would have fired him for it when you found out. Not after he was no longer profitable.

[smootness]

But he was fired for making less than$1M. So in your hypothetical, every "honest person" would be lying. If the secretary really mattered to you, you would have fired him for it when you found out. Not after he was no longer profitable.

It's obviously both; the employee is not producing enough to outweigh the other factors.

If Stans' teams won as much as they did but the teams were full of great guys who worked and played hard, he might have kept his job. Likewise, if his teams had the issues they had but won at a high rate, he would have kept his job.

But he wasn't winning enough to outweigh the other issues anymore. If you're not even making the NCAA Tournament, why have a team full of malcontents who don't care?

Personally, even without the attitude issues and off-court problems, I wanted Stans gone because he just wasn't winning enough anymore. We had found our new ceiling, and it wasn't good enough. I wanted him gone simply because I felt (and still feel) that our program could be better than that. It obviously isn't currently, but all that doesn't mean Stans should have stayed.

[tcdog70]

The first thing I would like to see is a D1 out of bounds play that results in an easy basket. I would like for him to recruit a Sec PG and Center. With out those two you can't win. Look at the Lady Dogs. Great center and two PGs. I would like to SEe more inside out to set up our shooters. I want some simple two man games between Chicken and Ware. Since ware has a good 12-15 range jumper why not run some high post sets and that will open up a driving lane for Chicken andHouston.
We will have the most experience team in the SEC , shit we should be really good . Fred shoots a nice % if he is set up and square! please run some plays with the correct spacing to get him those shots.

I look for Houston and Travis to both really have big roles and be really improved. We need to have a 8 man rotation. That is plenty.

[maroonmania]

Here is my deal, I agree that it was probably time for a change at the time we made it, especially if Stans had no intention of tightening up discipline in the program. However, its just a fact that during Stans' time here, even the last few years where things were not going as good, I don't remember watching his team play and thinking, wow, that is just an awful product on the floor and I really don't even want to watch this. Maybe in a specific game here or there I might have been near that point but not routinely. Our product now looks so unpolished and so unskilled it is really tough to watch. I really mean that, we have some athleticism but outside of Sword on certain nights there isn't much basketball skill to be seen. Yes, we give effort but we make boneheaded turnovers, can't hit open shots and even break down on defense at the worst possible times in games (mostly in crunch time when the game is really decided). I would like to think that magically changes next year but after Ray has had 3 years to essentially work with the same core of players with only marginal improvement to show for it, I don't see how I'm supposed to have much hope for that happening.

[smootness]

However, its just a fact that during Stans' time here, even the last few years where things were not going as good, I don't remember watching his team play and thinking, wow, that is just an awful product on the floor and I really don't even want to watch this. Maybe in a specific game here or there I might have been near that point but not routinely.

Oh, I absolutely do. I remember being consistently disgusted by our effort. The last 2 years, save a brief period in the OOC schedule that last year, were borderline unwatchable for me.

I was willing to overlook some things for a while looking to that 2011-2012 year, and I wasn't just disappointed in that team. I was embarrassed by it.