Question for you baseball guys....I have thought about this

[Harrydawg]

since seeing it first hand a few nights ago. I watched a Highschool kid pitch a complete 7 inning game and throw 102 pitches a few nights ago.

This game was earlier this week on a cool night, rainy night. The game did not "count" in official standings. Am I wrong to think this is crazy? Why, why would any coach leave there stud in that long this early in the season in a damn game that was for pride only.

The opposing team didn't pitch anyone more than 2 innings and was clearly not throwing all they had at this game......did not pitch there top two guys!

Many of you will know (or can figure out) who the player and team is.......but I cannot get past what I saw.
Am I out of line for thinking this was insane?

[I seen it dawg]

No. It's stupid

[dickiedawg]

Pretty sure we had a thread on this game. While the game may not have "meant" anything in division or playoff seeding, I promise it meant a lot to the players.

[smootness]

Need more info. Does the kid have a future in baseball? I would assume he does.

But even if so, it depends on how much rest time he had before the game and how much he'll have afterward. The coach may have been working with the kid on certain things, which is why he left him in. And they may have been mostly low-stress pitches.

I definitely don't think it's an automatic that throwing a HS kid 102 pitches is a bad thing.

[Harrydawg]

Good point smoot, kid is a senior committed to MSU and Cohen was there.......does that make it OK?

[MsStateBaseball]

If he has built up his pitch count in the preceding weeks?

Coach should know the kid more than anyone.

You

[smootness]

Good point smoot, kid is a senior committed to MSU and Cohen was there.......does that make it OK?

Again, don't know. I don't read that and automatically think it was a bad thing, though.

I'm sure if Cohen feels like the coach is hurting him, he'll talk to both the player and the coach.

[shoeless joe]

Whole lot of factors involved in whether or not it was a bad decision. Number of pitches is something to look at but that in itself does not dictate whether it's right or wrong. Some kids can handle that number no problem at all. So without knowing any specifics about the kid I can't say.

However, my personal philosophy is that early on in the year I don't max a kid out. There is no spring training in high school and this early weather has limited scrimmages and "jamboree" type games so I'm extra careful with my guys this early this year in particular. That said, at some point the pitchers will need to be stretched out, and the question is: do you want your ace throwing his 110th pitch of a game for the first time in a huge district game; or do you want to see how he does at that threshold before that moment? All things to think about...while at the same time realizing that there is not any one single high school baseball game that is worth jeopardizing a kids future.

[Smitty]

That's not really that big a deal.. Only 14 pitches per inning, not really laboring. Problems come when you have a lot of 20+ pitch innings.

102 isn't too bad.

[Todd4State]

This is kind of a gray area IMO. 102 pitches is a lot- but at the same time, it's not necessarily what I would consider excessive either.

I'm in the need more info crowd- was this the pitchers first start of the year, how many days of rest in between starts, is he a max effort guy, etc.

I think there is kind of a misunderstanding about pitching where a lot of fans think it's one start in particular that causes an injury, when in fact it's usually how a pitcher is handled over the course of time.

[Todd4State]

Whole lot of factors involved in whether or not it was a bad decision. Number of pitches is something to look at but that in itself does not dictate whether it's right or wrong. Some kids can handle that number no problem at all. So without knowing any specifics about the kid I can't say.

However, my personal philosophy is that early on in the year I don't max a kid out. There is no spring training in high school and this early weather has limited scrimmages and "jamboree" type games so I'm extra careful with my guys this early this year in particular. That said, at some point the pitchers will need to be stretched out, and the question is: do you want your ace throwing his 110th pitch of a game for the first time in a huge district game; or do you want to see how he does at that threshold before that moment? All things to think about...while at the same time realizing that there is not any one single high school baseball game that is worth jeopardizing a kids future.

If I was a high school baseball coach I would not schedule an "important" game early in the year- and I'm sure most do indeed do hold off on the rivalry games until later in the year.

[Coach34]

102 pitches in Feb is too damn many- 75-80 this early is plenty

102 is fine once it warms up some and you get into March

[shoeless joe]

And to be honest, if a kid is mechanically sound with his lower body, and in game shape, 102 isn't a bad number. A lot of issues arise when A kids lower body wears out and suddenly they are all arm. Which leads to compensation and can eventually turn into a muscle, elbow, or shoulder issue. I have seen kids pitch with a tweeked groin or some othe leg issue and a week or two later they're having arm trouble.

[engie]

102 isn't necessarily that much. It depends on the person, the training regimen, and the cues of fatigue.

Tatum threw 96, Brown has thrown 94 and 93, Laster 99, Sexton 92 and 90, McCord 90, etc... No one would accuse Butch of pitcher abuse....

[Coach34]

102 isn't necessarily that much. It depends on the person, the training regimen, and the cues of fatigue.

Tatum threw 96, Brown has thrown 94 and 93, Laster 99, Sexton 92 and 90, McCord 90, etc... No one would accuse Butch of pitcher abuse....

True- but you dont treat a 17 yr old the way you do a 20-21 yr old either. Not to mention colleges practice more than HS players do to get ready before the season

[engie]

True- but you dont treat a 17 yr old the way you do a 20-21 yr old either. Not entirely true. Depends on the kid and his preparation.


Not to mention colleges practice more than HS players do to get ready before the season
You are doing an awful lot of assuming. Again -- not necessarily true. It certainly wasn't even close to true in the baseball breeding ground I went through. Not a single one of those guys would claim college preparation was harder or better than we went through in high school. And that's why so many of them adjusted into immediate SEC sensations.

Unless I miss my guess -- the player in question is at a similar baseball breeding ground to the one I played in. You don't pump out the number of D1 players that they are right now just on a whim of luck without extensive preparation. The guy I'm pretty sure we're talking about is not the only pitcher on that staff capable of beating your alma mater. Had he showed any form of fatigue, he would have been pulled. He is throwing one game per week -- and last threw only about 30 pitches on 2/26. He probably won't throw again till 3/9. I'm also pretty sure he's a low effort workhorse type of player.

17 year olds don't necessarily have have no less mature arms than 21 year olds. And college players stand to lose just as much by blowing out their arms as well.

[Todd4State]

It probably looks worse because one coach handled the pitching staff very differently than the other too. Which is kind of weird. But I don't know all of the details here. Maybe the coach that was throwing every pitcher available had a doubleheader earlier or the next day and he felt like he needed to conserve as much pitching as possible?

[shoeless joe]

Not entirely true. Depends on the kid and his preparation.


You are doing an awful lot of assuming. Again -- not necessarily true. It certainly wasn't even close to true in the baseball breeding ground I went through. Not a single one of those guys would claim college preparation was harder or better than we went through in high school. And that's why so many of them adjusted into immediate SEC sensations.

Unless I miss my guess -- the player in question is at a similar baseball breeding ground to the one I played in. You don't pump out the number of D1 players that they are right now just on a whim of luck without extensive preparation. The guy I'm pretty sure we're talking about is not the only pitcher on that staff capable of beating your alma mater. Had he showed any form of fatigue, he would have been pulled. He is throwing one game per week -- and last threw only about 30 pitches on 2/26. He probably won't throw again till 3/9. I'm also pretty sure he's a low effort workhorse type of player.

17 year olds don't necessarily have have no less mature arms than 21 year olds. And college players stand to lose just as much by blowing out their arms as well.

Nevemind...even tho it's a snow day, I don't wanna start that argument.

[I seen it dawg]

No. It's stupid

A lot of you need to re-read the Op. Cold, rainy night that doesn't count..sounds like a scrimmage...DO NOT THROW EVEN YOUR WORKHORSE 7 AND 102. It's simply stupid.

1. Going 5 and/or about 60-70 is perfectly acceptable but pushing it as a ramp up for the guy to get to 100 an outing. It's not like you need 5 more outings to get him to that point. Prob not gonna kill the kid but why do it. No logic.
2. If the game doesn't count why in the hell is one guy going the full 7 innings? One the coach is dumb or 2 they only have one pitcher so the coach is dumb. Develop pitching by having guys pitch. Meaning more than one guy.

Lots of facts are gray in this situation but there is zero reason for that guy to pitch that much in the scenario laid out.

[Coach34]

As someone that coached baseball at the HS level for 13 years- I feel my assumptions are very reasonable. 95% of HS programs have limited access to inside facilities during Feb because of basketball- and that equals less practice than any college team.

You don't throw a 17 yr old 100 pitches in the cold during Feb- it's not even a question

[mic]

Late Feburary early March
Cold rainy night
No way a high school kid should have a pitch count that high..
Esp if he is a D1 prospect...
If he is throwing that much now in probably a meaningless game I can only imagine how many and how often he throws in District games...

[engie]

As someone that coached baseball at the HS level for 13 years- I feel my assumptions are very reasonable. 95% of HS programs have limited access to inside facilities during Feb because of basketball- and that equals less practice than any college team.

You don't throw a 17 yr old 100 pitches in the cold during Feb- it's not even a question

The kid in question is not playing at "most schools". You already put that 2 and 2 together, but are going to stick with your antiquated mindset regardless. The kid has arguably the finest overall high school baseball facilities in the state. When they want to go indoors -- they go indoors. He's had every bit as much practice as any college team out there. I'm sure those 4 or is it 5(THIS YEAR) D1 talents just developed themselves -- since after all -- they don't have time to practice**

Kid has always been a starter that goes deep in games. He's 25-1 now on the hill over that his 3 years pitching there in 28 total appearances. If he has arm trouble at some point -- it'll be worth discussing. Until then, it isn't. Not even remotely. Nothing in his career stat line points to pitcher abuse. Nothing at all. It was the kid's 3rd start of the year. He averaged 3 innings in each of the first 2. When you are playing your rival up the road in a very close game that you trailed for much of -- that you haven't lost to in quite awhile -- in 50* in early March -- it's go time.

"Cold" -- It was 52* that night. The OP is clearly stated from the passive aggressive viewpoint of an opposing fan if you reread with the knowledge of the 2 teams that were actually playing and the conditions surrounding it. Coach's alma mater played a good game -- but they couldn't beat the boys up the street -- and this is a bit of a straw grasp to demonize someone else in order to deflect from that IMO.

[shoeless joe]

The kid in question is not playing at "most schools". You already put that 2 and 2 together, but are going to stick with your antiquated mindset regardless. The kid has arguably the finest overall high school baseball facilities in the state. When they want to go indoors -- they go indoors. He's had every bit as much practice as any college team out there. I'm sure those 4 or is it 5(THIS YEAR) D1 talents just developed themselves -- since after all -- they don't have time to practice**

Kid has always been a starter that goes deep in games. He's 25-1 now on the hill over that his 3 years pitching there in 28 total appearances. If he has arm trouble at some point -- it'll be worth discussing. Until then, it isn't. Not even remotely. Nothing in his career stat line points to pitcher abuse. Nothing at all. It was the kid's 3rd start of the year. He averaged 3 innings in each of the first 2. When you are playing your rival up the road in a very close game that you trailed for much of -- that you haven't lost to in quite awhile -- in 50* in early March -- it's go time.

"Cold" -- It was 52* that night. The OP is clearly stated from the passive aggressive viewpoint of an opposing fan if you reread with the knowledge of the 2 teams that were actually playing and the conditions surrounding it. Coach's alma mater played a good game -- but they couldn't beat the boys up the street -- and this is a bit of a straw grasp to demonize someone else in order to deflect from that IMO.


The D1 kids on that team could have gone to most any upper level high school in the state and been in the same position they are now. They were elite talents at 10 years old. Their facilities do help them prepare throughout the year but their are a LOT of schools nowadays with indoor facilities. I'm sure with the money they pump in theirs is better than 99% but being able to stretch, throw, and hit is the same no matter how much the roof over your head cost.

I do agree with most of the rest of your post...however I think you're giving their "program" a little too much credit and C34 isn't giving them enough.

[engie]

Might as well just come out and say it now and give some context to the statements and questions involved.

The kid in question is MSU signee Noah Hughes at Jackson Prep. He was playing a home game against MRA on Tuesday night in 52* temps after having limited outings in each of his first two appearances. Prep is still, at this point, playing for an undefeated season -- against a bitter rival they haven't lost to in these kids' careers -- at home -- in a game that they trailed 5-0 at the end of 3(3 unearned runs) and didn't take their first lead in until the bottom of the 6th. I'm sure they would have liked to limit him a little more than that -- but with how the game played out -- are many of you really saying that you wouldn't have run him back out there to slam the door with a newly acquired one run lead in the 7th 85-90 pitches in? You pull him there and lose that game -- and the amount of shit you'd catch for it would be unprecedented. While it might not have been a district game -- it was an absolutely monstrous game to all involved. And they are due to play another one in Madison tonight(obviously not going to happen).

How many medical professionals are directly tied to Jackson Prep's baseball program in some way -- either as interested alums or people with kids playing? There's no more closely medically scrutinized team in Mississippi than Jackson Prep. And obviously, indoors practice and preparation isn't an issue for them...

Going over 100 in March is not ideal -- but it's hardly a big thing. Especially given all of the circumstances surrounding this player and game in particular.

[smootness]

I said it before, but if Cohen was there and had an issue with it, it will be dealt with.

It's a non-issue.