On basketball improvement...

[engie]

Margins: Years 3, 2, 1
Vs best team in the SEC: NA, +11, +35&+25
2nd best: +20&+4, +22&+10, +30 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Arky at home this year...
3rd best: +4, +20&+21, +32&+8 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat aTm on the road this year...
4th best: +6&+6, +7, +17&-6 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Ole Miss both home and away this year...
5th best: -6, +4, +42 ----- got over the hump against LSU....
6th best: +6, +19, +25&+16 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Georgia this year...

Average margins against the top half of a league that bottomed out in 2012 and is rebounding in a big way right now:
current - +5.71PPG** With Kentucky to go, which will probably inflate this number slightly
2014 - +14.25PPG
2013 - +22.2PPG

So -- we've been in every game against the top half of the league and I believe led in the second half of every one of these games sans @ Bud Walton. We've got to learn to finish games -- no doubt. Which is why I said before that we play like a young team -- by not finishing games and dumb, unforced turnovers.

I understand the argument of "there's been improvement but not enough -- it's year 3" -- and I will agree that Ray is a year behind where he needs to be at this point in time. This team is what last year's team should have been IMO...

[tcdog70]

agree-we have improved. We start a SR.3 jrs and Soph. Lot's of experience-all have started since they were Freshmen except Roq. So they should be able to play with other teams. What upsets Me is the turnovers and the inability to run a simple inbound play. I wish Ray could Coach better at the end of games. He needs to go and look at how we used to run screens for Super D and do that for Ready. I'm sure Richard would show Him. I would like for Chicken and Ware to run a 2 man game. The Hell with the NIT-next year we should be in the Big Dance.

[engie]

Hell with the NIT-next year we should be in the Big Dance.

Agreed. I'm disappointed in no NIT this year -- and will be disappointed if we aren't dancing next year...

[Liverpooldawg]

Basically we had nowhere to go but up. We have improved from rock bottom of the league to mid-bottom half of the league. Impressive.***

[msstate7]

Basically we had nowhere to go but up. We have improved from rock bottom of the league to mid-bottom half of the league. Impressive.***

We could've stayed where we were. We didn't.

[engie]

The league has gotten better -- and we could have beaten every single team we've played outside of the bad early defeat to UF -- and also could have beaten every team in the top half of the league. This team is very close to being an upper half of the league team -- which now means contending for NCAA births. It's not hard for teams that bring back as much as we will next year along with what we're bringing in to make a 6-8 PPG improvement. We apply that jump to this year -- and we win 11 of the last 12 SEC games we've played = 11-3 in SEC play right now and 20-7 overall -- and if Ready and Sword were healthy from the beginning -- possibly more like 22-5.

This team is on the brink of being what we want it to be...which was my point...

[codeDawg]

agree-we have improved. We start a SR.3 jrs and Soph. Lot's of experience-all have started since they were Freshmen except Roq. So they should be able to play with other teams. What upsets Me is the turnovers and the inability to run a simple inbound play. I wish Ray could Coach better at the end of games. He needs to go and look at how we used to run screens for Super D and do that for Ready. I'm sure Richard would show Him. I would like for Chicken and Ware to run a 2 man game. The Hell with the NIT-next year we should be in the Big Dance.

Agree with all of this. There is no doubt that our players are playing better basketball than they have in the past two years, but they should be given their experience and maturity. We play pretty good defense, but that's easy to coach when your players aren't as capable on the other end of the court. With all this experience and effort, we're still struggling to get to .500.

Why are we struggling to get there? Turnovers and shooting. Those are areas that should be correctable with these players through coaching, and those areas are not being addressed with the current staff. Can Ray get there? Possibly, but it's obviously not something in his bag today or we would be doing it.

We are addressing the talent disparity, which should get us back to competitive in 2-3 years, but then are we back in the same spot we were where we have a recruiting machine that teaches defense first and has no skill at coaching the more technical aspects of the game? Is it going to take 2-3 years after that to get the new players enough experience to produce the way the current crop has?

It sounds like back to the future to me, and it's going to take a while to get there. Our current trajectory is to take a few years to get to mediocre. That's not my idea of commitment to winning, which is what I expect from MSU leadership.

[chef dixon]

The league has gotten better -- and we could have beaten every single team we've played outside of the bad early defeat to UF -- and also could have beaten every team in the top half of the league. This team is very close to being an upper half of the league team -- which now means contending for NCAA births. It's not hard for teams that bring back as much as we will next year along with what we're bringing in to make a 6-8 PPG improvement. We apply that jump to this year -- and we win 11 of the last 12 SEC games we've played = 11-3 in SEC play right now and 20-7 overall -- and if Ready and Sword were healthy from the beginning -- possibly more like 22-5.

This team is on the brink of being what we want it to be...which was my point...

I'm not really sold that the league is so much better. I think that the dissolution of the Big East and the major conference realignments year after year have kind of leveled the playing field slightly for everyone. There is still not much separation between teams in our conference outside of Kentucky. Every single team on our schedule (-UK) is pretty much the same expectation for me: win at home, compete on the road. We might as well be playing the same team over and over again as far as I'm concerned.

The way I see it, Ole Miss is benefitting from a weak conference. Doesn't matter who they play, its a close/sloppy classic SEC game and they've pulled most of them out in the end. Finishing games is the difference in this conference.

[codeDawg]

I'm not really sold that the league is so much better. I think that the dissolution of the Big East and the major conference realignments year after year have kind of leveled the playing field slightly for everyone. There is still not much separation between teams in our conference outside of Kentucky. Every single team on our schedule (-UK) is pretty much the same expectation for me: win at home, compete on the road. We might as well be playing the same team over and over again as far as I'm concerned.

The way I see it, Ole Miss is benefitting from a weak conference. Doesn't matter who they play, its a close/sloppy classic SEC game and they've pulled most of them out in the end. Finishing games is the difference in this conference.

According to Warran Nolan the SEC is ever so marginally better this year. Close enough to call it the same.

2014 .5516 RPI (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2014/conferencerpi) (123-52 Non-Conf DI)
2015 .5610 RPI (http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2015/conferencerpi) (121-51 Non-Conf DI, so far)

[smootness]

At this point, the 'make or break' year for Ray is probably going to be 2016-2017. A lot of people aren't going to like that, but I think it's clear Ray will get next year. And our chances of making at least the NIT will be pretty good next year, which will give him at least the following year.

Our ability to continue having success in 2016-2017 will be big for him. If we make the NIT next year, then slide back to a 15-win team, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a change is made, and I think all would certainly agree it would be time at that point.

Personally, I think making the NCAA Tournament should be the goal next year, and anything short of that will be disappointing and extremely frustrating. I think just about the whole fanbase would be on board with a change at that point.

And honestly, I think most would be ok with a change now, but I just don't see it happening. I like Ray, and I still think he can be successful here, but we definitely have to see big improvements next year.

[dawgs]

Agreed. I'm disappointed in no NIT this year -- and will be disappointed if we aren't dancing next year...

The problem is that not being in the NIT this year makes it hard to believe we will make the jump from losing record to ncaa at-large quality team with the same core who will be seniors.

[Johnson85]

This team is on the brink of being what we want it to be...which was my point...

Not that I necessarily disagree, but the improvement we've seen can easily just be attributed to having starting 3 players freshmen in year one to the same three players as juniors in year 3. Add in the fact that we basically did not have a full team for the first year, and still had to deal with a ton of injuries in year two (although even year 3 has had injury issues), and it's not clear that Ray has done anything more than avoid making the players worse as they get older and healthier. A competent coach and experienced players can easily gets you to the middle of this SEC, but it's much harder to take the next step. Ray could make a jump next year; or maybe he continues to progress next year, plateaus when he relies on younger but better talent, and then takes the step another year or two down the road with that talent. Or Ray (or really the team) could make marginal improvements next year as we are benefit from 3 seniors starters, get to around 500 in the SEC, and then take a big step back to start the process over with new young players.

The good news is that if he does flop after next year, his recruiting looks to have improved enough that he will leave the next guy with at least young talent equivalent to Ware, Thomas, and Sword, so we won't have to start from scratch with the rebuilding process.

[Political Hack]

we're getting better at losing. hooray!!!!

[gtowndawg]

He seems to be a good guy and no I'm not a huge Stans fan either. But at the end of the day, I don't watch and I don't care and as a fan that's the ultimate measuring stick to me.

And I did use to care by the way. I use to know every player, everything. Now, I couldn't pick IJ Ready out of a lineup. I honestly couldn't. My passion for State basketball is dead and I'd like to have it back.

[dawgs]

Not that I necessarily disagree, but the improvement we've seen can easily just be attributed to having starting 3 players freshmen in year one to the same three players as juniors in year 3. Add in the fact that we basically did not have a full team for the first year, and still had to deal with a ton of injuries in year two (although even year 3 has had injury issues), and it's not clear that Ray has done anything more than avoid making the players worse as they get older and healthier. A competent coach and experienced players can easily gets you to the middle of this SEC, but it's much harder to take the next step. Ray could make a jump next year; or maybe he continues to progress next year, plateaus when he relies on younger but better talent, and then takes the step another year or two down the road with that talent. Or Ray (or really the team) could make marginal improvements next year as we are benefit from 3 seniors starters, get to around 500 in the SEC, and then take a big step back to start the process over with new young players.

The good news is that if he does flop after next year, his recruiting looks to have improved enough that he will leave the next guy with at least young talent equivalent to Ware, Thomas, and Sword, so we won't have to start from scratch with the rebuilding process.

Amen. Of course when we aren't starting 3 true freshmen and have more than 6 healthy scholarship players were are gonna lose by less. Even I could coach improvement from that.

[Goat from MSU]

It because of the players having more experience , Did we have the most returning min. in the SEC this year ,if we were not then I bet we were 2nd of 3rd .We should be 9 and 5 not the other way around .It time to get a better coach in here while we have a good core of players ,not next year or 2 years . Ray did his job ,he cleaned it up . Now let's get a coach to move us to the next level.You give him 2 more years it could be a dumpster fire all over. Do not give me crap about better players coming in either the 2016 class has not signed on the dotted line yet.
The league has gotten better -- and we could have beaten every single team we've played outside of the bad early defeat to UF -- and also could have beaten every team in the top half of the league. This team is very close to being an upper half of the league team -- which now means contending for NCAA births. It's not hard for teams that bring back as much as we will next year along with what we're bringing in to make a 6-8 PPG improvement. We apply that jump to this year -- and we win 11 of the last 12 SEC games we've played = 11-3 in SEC play right now and 20-7 overall -- and if Ready and Sword were healthy from the beginning -- possibly more like 22-5.

This team is on the brink of being what we want it to be...which was my point...

[smootness]

He seems to be a good guy and no I'm not a huge Stans fan either. But at the end of the day, I don't watch and I don't care and as a fan that's the ultimate measuring stick to me.

And I did use to care by the way. I use to know every player, everything. Now, I couldn't pick IJ Ready out of a lineup. I honestly couldn't. My passion for State basketball is dead and I'd like to have it back.

Well, honestly, that's on you.

All you really said was, 'I'm only interested in State sports when we're good.'

[TheDogFather]

Margins: Years 3, 2, 1
Vs best team in the SEC: NA, +11, +35&+25
2nd best: +20&+4, +22&+10, +30 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Arky at home this year...
3rd best: +4, +20&+21, +32&+8 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat aTm on the road this year...
4th best: +6&+6, +7, +17&-6 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Ole Miss both home and away this year...
5th best: -6, +4, +42 ----- got over the hump against LSU....
6th best: +6, +19, +25&+16 ----- woulda, coulda, shoulda beat Georgia this year...

Average margins against the top half of a league that bottomed out in 2012 and is rebounding in a big way right now:
current - +5.71PPG** With Kentucky to go, which will probably inflate this number slightly
2014 - +14.25PPG
2013 - +22.2PPG

So -- we've been in every game against the top half of the league and I believe led in the second half of every one of these games sans @ Bud Walton. We've got to learn to finish games -- no doubt. Which is why I said before that we play like a young team -- by not finishing games and dumb, unforced turnovers.

I understand the argument of "there's been improvement but not enough -- it's year 3" -- and I will agree that Ray is a year behind where he needs to be at this point in time. This team is what last year's team should have been IMO...

This again?

[Jacksondevildog]

****ing stats. We aren't any good. We are better than we were the last two seasons and that isn't saying much. The SEC is a bad basketball conference. Kentucky is elite and there are three or four average teams. We don't have any shooters. We haven't recruited any shooters, expect for Dunlap, who was rumored close to being dropped by the staff and continues to not play this year for some reason when we need shooters. If Zappardo or Weatherspoon can't bring a spark next year, we are staring .500 for an overall record. We are not getting Newman. There is a small, naive percentage of our fanbase that thinks Ray pulls him. When he doesn't come to MSU, they will pull their support of Ray. I like Ray and he was dealt a tough deck. Ole Miss has found them shooters for the last 4 years. Henderson and Moody. That is the difference in them being a average to below average team and being an NCAA team. If we had Moody, we would be, at least, an NIT team.

[dawgs]

Well, honestly, that's on you.

All you really said was, 'I'm only interested in State sports when we're good.'

People have real lives. I'm not gonna go out of my way to spend ~4 hours a week watching a basketball team that's going nowhere when I could spend those 4 hours doing things far more enjoyable or things I need to actually get done. I haven't lived driving distance to starkville since 2004, and during the croom era I wasn't exactly scheduling my life around football either. I wanted us to be good. I wanted to care. But when you have life to live, it's hard to put on premium on watching a shitty team even if you love the school. Since mullen's been our HC, I rarely miss a game, and then if there's an absolutely unavoidable conflict, i dvr it to watch later. You may call some of us fairweather fans, but I feel like I don't have enough time to get all I want/need to get done anyway, so watching a losing team over and over is a waste of time.

Mentioning croom made me think how close the parallels between JWS > croom > mullen might be to out basketball program. JWS had a good run but petered out at the end, much like Stans. Croom comes in and sucks for 3 years, the stars align for a flukey liberty bowl that wasn't really indicative of croom getting it as a HC, but more like we had a flukey opportunistic D and a future NFL RB, and the flukeyness of the season was verified in croom's 5th and final season. Similarly Ray is about to have a 3rd straight shitty year, but next year we might get to the NIT based on purely having 3 4 year starters and a 3 year starter in the lineup (equivalent to the liberty bowl), but losing all those seniors will likely lead to a regression back to <.500 in ray's 5th season. Hopefully we can find out mullen at that point. It's amazing that we managed not to learn anything from the croom arc.

[Goat from MSU]

At least someone gets it .
People have real lives. I'm not gonna go out of my way to spend ~4 hours a week watching a basketball team that's going nowhere when I could spend those 4 hours doing things far more enjoyable or things I need to actually get done. I haven't lived driving distance to starkville since 2004, and during the croom era I wasn't exactly scheduling my life around football either. I wanted us to be good. I wanted to care. But when you have life to live, it's hard to put on premium on watching a shitty team even if you love the school. Since mullen's been our HC, I rarely miss a game, and then if there's an absolutely unavoidable conflict, i dvr it to watch later. You may call some of us fairweather fans, but I feel like I don't have enough time to get all I want/need to get done anyway, so watching a losing team over and over is a waste of time.

Mentioning croom made me think how close the parallels between JWS > croom > mullen might be to out basketball program. JWS had a good run but petered out at the end, much like Stans. Croom comes in and sucks for 3 years, the stars align for a flukey liberty bowl that wasn't really indicative of croom getting it as a HC, but more like we had a flukey opportunistic D and a future NFL RB, and the flukeyness of the season was verified in croom's 5th and final season. Similarly Ray is about to have a 3rd straight shitty year, but next year we might get to the NIT based on purely having 3 4 year starters and a 3 year starter in the lineup (equivalent to the liberty bowl), but losing all those seniors will likely lead to a regression back to <.500 in ray's 5th season. Hopefully we can find out mullen at that point. It's amazing that we managed not to learn anything from the croom arc.

[smootness]

People have real lives. I'm not gonna go out of my way to spend ~4 hours a week watching a basketball team that's going nowhere when I could spend those 4 hours doing things far more enjoyable or things I need to actually get done. I haven't lived driving distance to starkville since 2004, and during the croom era I wasn't exactly scheduling my life around football either. I wanted us to be good. I wanted to care. But when you have life to live, it's hard to put on premium on watching a shitty team even if you love the school. Since mullen's been our HC, I rarely miss a game, and then if there's an absolutely unavoidable conflict, i dvr it to watch later. You may call some of us fairweather fans, but I feel like I don't have enough time to get all I want/need to get done anyway, so watching a losing team over and over is a waste of time.

Mentioning croom made me think how close the parallels between JWS > croom > mullen might be to out basketball program. JWS had a good run but petered out at the end, much like Stans. Croom comes in and sucks for 3 years, the stars align for a flukey liberty bowl that wasn't really indicative of croom getting it as a HC, but more like we had a flukey opportunistic D and a future NFL RB, and the flukeyness of the season was verified in croom's 5th and final season. Similarly Ray is about to have a 3rd straight shitty year, but next year we might get to the NIT based on purely having 3 4 year starters and a 3 year starter in the lineup (equivalent to the liberty bowl), but losing all those seniors will likely lead to a regression back to <.500 in ray's 5th season. Hopefully we can find out mullen at that point. It's amazing that we managed not to learn anything from the croom arc.

All of that is perfectly fine. I said nothing about having to watch games, and it's everyone's personal choice as to how much they support any team. There's nothing that says you have to do a thing.

My point was simply that whether or not you care is on you, not on anybody else. If you're saying, 'I don't care about Mississippi State basketball right now,' then you don't get to also say, 'We need a new coach.' That was essentially my point.

If you don't care, you don't care. But it's not anybody else's responsibility to make you care. If you want to care, then start caring.

[codeDawg]

****ing stats. We aren't any good. We are better than we were the last two seasons and that isn't saying much. The SEC is a bad basketball conference. Kentucky is elite and there are three or four average teams. We don't have any shooters. We haven't recruited any shooters, expect for Dunlap, who was rumored close to being dropped by the staff and continues to not play this year for some reason when we need shooters. If Zappardo or Weatherspoon can't bring a spark next year, we are staring .500 for an overall record. We are not getting Newman. There is a small, naive percentage of our fanbase that thinks Ray pulls him. When he doesn't come to MSU, they will pull their support of Ray. I like Ray and he was dealt a tough deck. Ole Miss has found them shooters for the last 4 years. Henderson and Moody. That is the difference in them being a average to below average team and being an NCAA team. If we had Moody, we would be, at least, an NIT team.

Agree that shooters are the big difference, but let's not pretend that talent is the problem on offense. I refuse to believe that the guys we have on the team are the least talented offensively BY FAR in the SEC and are worse than two SWAC teams. If we got a shooter or two we may go to "not abysmal", but somebody has to teach the kids we have how to run a half-court set, inbound the ball, and get out in transition.

We are better this year because we are getting better effort on defense. We are scoring the exact same number of points per game. Ray gets some credit for closing the gap with defense, but there is way more room for improvement on the offensive side of the ball, and it starts with coaching. If we can't get the ball to an open shooter who is trained to take his shot, talent won't matter.

[gtowndawg]

Well, honestly, that's on you.

All you really said was, 'I'm only interested in State sports when we're good.'

I don't have a problem with that. I own a business, I'm an elected official here in the Memphis area and I have three small kids. If State doesn't care to be competitive than it's not something I'm going to spend time or money on. I make time for football because we do care (I show up for games as they start and leave as soon as it is done), but if we sucked I wouldn't budget time doing that either.

As I have grown I've realized MSU sports is meant to be fun and entertaining for me and my family. That's all.

[dawgs]

All of that is perfectly fine. I said nothing about having to watch games, and it's everyone's personal choice as to how much they support any team. There's nothing that says you have to do a thing.

My point was simply that whether or not you care is on you, not on anybody else. If you're saying, 'I don't care about Mississippi State basketball right now,' then you don't get to also say, 'We need a new coach.' That was essentially my point.

If you don't care, you don't care. But it's not anybody else's responsibility to make you care. If you want to care, then start caring.

Oh don't spout that horseshit. I don't think anyone is saying they don't care if we are good or not in basketball, they are saying they don't care to closely follow the basketball program right now because we suck. and you know good and damn well that's what was meant. Just because I don't care enough about our 2+-years-and-counting sub-.500 basketball team enough to budget the time to watch the games doesn't meant i can't voice my displeasure in the direction of our program and our desperate need for a better coach.

[codeDawg]

I don't have a problem with that. I own a business, I'm an elected official here in the Memphis area and I have three small kids. If State doesn't care to be competitive than it's not something I'm going to spend time or money on. I make time for football because we do care (I show up for games as they start and leave as soon as it is done), but if we sucked I wouldn't budget time doing that either.

As I have grown I've realized MSU sports is meant to be fun and entertaining for me and my family. That's all.

Completely agree. It's MSU's job to compel me to part with my time and money. If MSU is not committed to winning, I'm not committed to parting with my precious and limited resources.

[shannondawg]

Someone told me that Stricklin's next door neighbor was Rick Ray. Is that true? Needless to say, that could make it uncomfortable.

[mic]

Someone told me that Stricklin's next door neighbor was Rick Ray. Is that true? Needless to say, that could make it uncomfortable.

Yes....

[mcdawg]

I don't have a problem with that. I own a business, I'm an elected official here in the Memphis area and I have three small kids. If State doesn't care to be competitive than it's not something I'm going to spend time or money on. I make time for football because we do care (I show up for games as they start and leave as soon as it is done), but if we sucked I wouldn't budget time doing that either.

As I have grown I've realized MSU sports is meant to be fun and entertaining for me and my family. That's all.

Absolutely right! I care, but I will not spend my valuable time watching men's basketball (I have watched a few women's games, because their games mean something, the coach has a good offensive game plan, and they win!). It is hard to watch our once proud program now - and I predicted it when it happened. I said people will voice their displeasure by not going to games, and it is the future. I still support State by buying 4 lower level tickets and paying the Bulldog dues, and the saddest part is not one person has asked to use my tickets - people use to bug me to death for them.

[Dawg61]

This team is on the brink of being what we want it to be...which was my point...

Not even close. Do you actually think a single coach in the SEC is concerned about prepping for MSU? They are not scared by us in the least bit. A team that is 11-3 in the SEC isn't flying under anyone's radar. We would get noticed and teams would actually start making a concerted effort to prep for us. Wins become more difficult to obtain when you get noticed. A switch won't just flick with our team because we're severely lacking in 4 areas as a team almost unanimously 1-12 on the team. We can not shoot. We can not dribble. We can not pass. We can not think.

[msstate7]

We can not shoot. We can not dribble. We can not pass. We can not think.

Yet we've won 5 sec games and competed in all, but 2. Ray must do a good job of coaching what he has.

[Dawg61]

Yet we've won 5 sec games and competed in all, but 2. Ray must do a good job of coaching what he has.

Remind me what is our SEC record? Overall record? What is Ray's overall SEC record? We've been over how Ray has been able to keep games close. He has athletes, they play decent defense and they produce lots of fouls. They don't win though. Do you want to win or do you want to play the most boring ass basketball ever just to keep games close? Ray is working diligently at keeping games close. It is Croom football. Ray can not win without smart skilled players. Can not do it. He's not getting first round NBA talent so it's an impossibility to win consistently without smart skillful players. Guys that can shoot, dribble and pass. The most basic fundamentals needed to be a good player. Worst part about it is that Ray can't develop those three skills in his players and they don't have the brain power to retain any knowledge he could bestow on them if he actually had that capability to do so. Ray can teach this only "defense guys, stay in between your man and the basket. The offense will take care of itself". I didn't say those words. He did.

[msstate7]

Worst part about it is that Ray can't develop those three skills in his players and they don't have the brain power to retain any knowledge he could bestow on them if he actually had that capability to do so.

If the players don't have the brain power to retain knowledge, how do you know ray isn't capable of teaching?

How do you know the players can't retain knowledge? Maybe they can learn just fine, but Ray can't teach em.

[Dawg61]

If the players don't have the brain power to retain knowledge, how do you know ray isn't capable of teaching?

How do you know the players can't retain knowledge? Maybe they can learn just fine, but Ray can't teach em.

Do you really need to go through an entire new set of players before you're finally convinced? Think about what you're asking here. You are asking for another 3-4 year commitment to Ray. Why? Because of some future players? That's absurd. The signs are everywhere. Read them. We can have this fixed before NEXT SEASON! We can be in the NCAA tournament next year with a good hire. Think about the next coach for a second. Think about how you could best set him up for success. That answer is by giving him a four seniors and one junior starting lineup and a full year to recruit before his first class signs. Wait another year and you seriously deplete his cupboard. Calculated risks have to be made. Ray will not produce a consistent winner because of his lack of offensive coaching ability and/or his lack of understanding on what type of players he needs to sign i.e. smart skillful players.

[msstate7]

Do you really need to go through an entire new set of players before you're finally convinced? Think about what you're asking here. You are asking for another 3-4 year commitment to Ray. Why? Because of some future players? That's absurd. The signs are everywhere. Read them. We can have this fixed before NEXT SEASON! We can be in the NCAA tournament next year with a good hire. Think about the next coach for a second. Think about how you could best set him up for success. That answer is by giving him a four seniors and one junior starting lineup and a full year to recruit before his first class signs. Wait another year and you seriously deplete his cupboard. Calculated risks have to be made. Ray will not produce a consistent winner because of his lack of offensive coaching ability and/or his lack of understanding on what type of players he needs to sign i.e. smart skillful players.

All I want for Ray is one more year. If he gets postseason, I'd give him more time. If not, bye.

The great hire by USCe and auburn didn't get them in the postseason in year 1.

[Dawg61]

All I want for Ray is one more year. If he gets postseason, I'd give him more time. If not, bye.

The great hire by USCe and auburn didn't get them in the postseason in year 1.

Do you understand that by giving him even just one more year has a major impact on the next coach? We set realistic expectations of Ray at the beginning of this year at 18 wins and NIT. He will not reach those expectations. We are 12-15 overall and 5-9 SEC. That doesn't cut the mustard. We aren't USCe and Auburn. We don't know all the ins and outs of their basketball programs. We barely recognize ours. We have to do what's best for our PROGRAM not for our coach. This decision is bigger than Ray.

Demand more from our coach 7. I want our program to win for you. Please demand it to win for me.

[dawgs]

What does not getting to the post season in year 1 have to do with ray about to be 4 games under .500 in year 3? Not to mention no one expected pearl to have auburn competing this year. But should we point out that auburn has a borderline top 10 recruiting class while we have a borderline top 50 recruiting class for 2015?

[msstate7]

Do you understand that by giving him even just one more year has a major impact on the next coach? We set realistic expectations of Ray at the beginning of this year at 18 wins and NIT. He will not reach those expectations. We are 12-15 overall and 5-9 SEC. That doesn't cut the mustard. We aren't USCe and Auburn. We don't know all the ins and outs of their basketball programs. We barely recognize ours. We have to do what's best for our PROGRAM not for our coach. This decision is bigger than Ray.

Demand more from our coach 7. I want our program to win for you. Please demand it to win for me.

One post you say we have no talent. The next post you say we need to hire a new coach before these players leave. You said earlier that our players weren't smart enough to learn. Will a new coach be able to teach players you said weren't capable of learning?

[Dawg61]

One post you say we have no talent. The next post you say we need to hire a new coach before these players leave. You said earlier that our players weren't smart enough to learn. Will a new coach be able to teach players you said weren't capable of learning?

Next year's seniors are a buffer for the new coach. They are what they will be at this point but it gives him a full year to get his new players signed. Ray isn't all bad. He is decent but his offensive ceiling is too low for MSU. Maybe MSU twenty years ago and Ray wouldn't have people like me saying he needs to go. Times change. Expectations change. I demand MSU to treat basketball as a co#1. I demand MSU treat its program as top 6 SEC. I'm tired of waiting in the boat of failure for the water to be just right for everyone. Let's go!!

[msstate7]

Next year's seniors are a buffer for the new coach. They are what they will be at this point but it gives him a full year to get his new players signed. Ray isn't all bad. He is decent but his offensive ceiling is too low for MSU. Maybe MSU twenty years ago and Ray wouldn't have people like me saying he needs to go. Times change. Expectations change. I demand MSU to treat basketball as a co#1. I demand MSU treat its program as top 6 SEC. I'm tired of waiting in the boat of failure for the water to be just right for everyone. Let's go!!

I wouldn't be mad if we hired a new coach this year. I'm nowhere near sold ray can get us where we need to be. I just don't think there's any way we fire Ray, so I'm trying to keep an open mind and hope for the best

[engie]

I wouldn't be mad if we hired a new coach this year. I'm nowhere near sold ray can get us where we need to be. I just don't think there's any way we fire Ray, so I'm trying to keep an open mind and hope for the best

Exactly. The upside of firing him immediately is the probability of(at least short term) renewed fan support, assuming we got off our asses and got someone that everyone could be excited about.

I still think 3 years is too quick of trigger in basketball for a school in our position to get and retain a desirable coach unless we overpay bigtime -- especially with the moderate improvement that has been shown, which was really the worst case scenario IMO as far as the fanbase goes. Especially when one year was a definite throw away and you could argue that 2 were at least partial throw aways. So, he's really had 1.5 years here, and Stricklin is prettymuch calling it one year.

I agree with D61 -- our seniors-to-be "are what they are" which is talented(but not well rounded) athletes without alot of basketball savvy that are prone to mental lapses and have not shown any semblance of consistent mental toughness. I don't know if what we see from them is what Ray teaches or not -- I do know that he comes off as basketball intelligent when he speaks about stuff at length. He notices the same issues we do. It could be argued that he should have fixed them quicker or done a better job evaluating and recruiting, and I'd tentatively agree. Tentatively because it seems we were very toxic on the recruiting trail for his first couple of years and it took Ray awhile to figure out and build his newtork here. Let's not forget -- his predecessor didn't find immediate success here, and he'd built his network at MSU for 9 years prior to getting the job.

Ray's fate still lies with Malik to an extent. I realize everyone is saying we don't have a chance -- but I won't buy in to all of that until he's signed elsewhere. That's the quickest way to win back the fanbase and get extended here. That opens the door to Kegler at least to an extent. Get one of those two -- and your back to recruiting on peak Stansbury levels here. Malik takes our mid 40s 2015 class and turns it into a top 25 2015 class.

[codeDawg]

I still think 3 years is too quick of trigger in basketball for a school in our position to get and retain a desirable coach unless we overpay bigtime -- especially with the moderate improvement that has been shown, which was really the worst case scenario IMO as far as the fanbase goes. Especially when one year was a definite throw away and you could argue that 2 were at least partial throw aways. So, he's really had 1.5 years here, and Stricklin is prettymuch calling it one year.

I would agree with you if the offense wasn't so atrociously awful, and not improving year 2 to year 3. We are #291/345 (http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/145/p6) in scoring offense out of all DI basketball including SWAC and other irrelevant conferences. Last year we finished #259, so you could say we are regressing (tonight isn't going to help). If we were say, #175 having pulled it up from #200, I could say, well, we're just not that talented and we've put a few things in place to help out. That's not the case though. With an experienced team we are still worse on the offensive side of the ball than any other team in the SEC besides Missouri. They are having an awful year, but at least are in the first year of a new coach who has won a NC at a DII school.

These kids either aren't being taught effectively, or don't want to listen to Ray. In either case, that's on him. He gets props for stepping up the defense this year, but I can teach my dog to chase people and try to get the ball. I refuse to believe that we are #291 out of 345 in scoring offense because these kids are just so bad at basketball.

[RougeDawg]

So are We to the point with our basketball program where we should be happy and satisfied being the third or forth tallest midget? Every improvement you list is marginal at best and result of guys having 2-3.5 years of experience under their belts. And from where we were there was only one direction for us to go, unless we pulled the plug on men's basketball altogether. To most of us using logic and not tying to fit our "hopes and dreams" into reality, the improvement is a product of experience. Just like a burger flipper at McDonald's. At first he will struggle with the trade. After 3 years of doing the same thing there will be marginal improvement simply from repetitive action. But he will still be a burger flipper. What's next? Are you going to start looking into hot dog and pretzel sales during Rays tenure in an attempt to show how we are better off now with him at the helm? Just stop trying to defend our horrendous program. It's really getting old seeing these threads putting so much effort into trying to turn chicken shit into chicken salad. Just stop it already.

[thunderclap]

Someone told me that Stricklin's next door neighbor was Rick Ray. Is that true? Needless to say, that could make it uncomfortable.

I'm surprised he doesn't live with them.

[RougeDawg]

I would agree with you if the offense wasn't so atrociously awful, and not improving year 2 to year 3. We are #291/345 (http://www.ncaa.com/stats/basketball-men/d1/current/team/145/p6) in scoring offense out of all DI basketball including SWAC and other irrelevant conferences. Last year we finished #259, so you could say we are regressing (tonight isn't going to help). If we were say, #175 having pulled it up from #200, I could say, well, we're just not that talented and we've put a few things in place to help out. That's not the case though. With an experienced team we are still worse on the offensive side of the ball than any other team in the SEC besides Missouri. They are having an awful year, but at least are in the first year of a new coach who has won a NC at a DII school.

These kids either aren't being taught effectively, or don't want to listen to Ray. In either case, that's on him. He gets props for stepping up the defense this year, but I can teach my dog to chase people and try to get the ball. I refuse to believe that we are #291 out of 345 in scoring offense because these kids are just so bad at basketball.

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

[msstate7]

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

[engie]

Does it not stand to reason that a very good/much improved defense is a significant contributing factor for less offense? Deeper shot clock -- fewer possessions -- fewer points. I don't have a premium kenpom subscription to verify it -- but I believe it will show that our offensive efficiency is about the same as last year. Which is, by no means, good enough -- but I sincerely doubt the dropoff that the PPG snapshot would project...

[engie]

Wait you can't see how great ray is???*** Our revenue has been stagnant during his tenure while expenses have doubled. Haven't you seen the numbers? Our previous cosch never made this much revenue. Good thing these "revenue" guys aren't responsible for any business decisions or that business would be up Sh*t creek .

I've never seen anyone circle back to a position after being owned to the extent that you were on this one. You never cease to amaze...

[RougeDawg]

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

All these IFS. I'm basing everything on ACTUAL results. Not what may have or could have been. If I had won the lottery i could have done a lot of different things myself but guess what, i haven't.

[RougeDawg]

Double Post

[RougeDawg]

Holy.Shit.

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you are this dense. No way. I've never seen anyone come back to a position after being publicly proven an idiot.

Proven wrong?? How is the common knowledge that inflation is a fact of economics? Also it is a known fact that energy costs (IE electricity to heat, cool and light the hump and practice facility, gas for plane and bus rides, and higher costs for every good that uses transportation for distribution has gone up since our last coach) has gone up dramatically over the last 4-5 years, while our revenue has been stagnant. But we are supposed to believe that we are better off economically now than before. Have you ever heard of profit, margins, and what percent margins a business must maintain to stay in business?

I'm dumb it down for you. If your costs go up incrementally year after year, but your overall income remanins stagnant, your profit margins shrink incrementally. I used your revenue stats and applied them in real life terms. So by your numbers our men's BBall "Profit Margin" is shrinking under Ray. Please elaborate with your inquisite business skills how this can be viewed as something positive? Unless we are getting our electricity donated there's no way we are clearing more now than 4 years ago if your revenue numbers are correct.

What business economics are you using if you believe we are better off economicallyNow?

[engie]

Proven wrong?? How is the common knowledge that inflation is a fact of economics? Also it is a known fact that energy costs (IE electricity to heat, cool and light the hump and practice facility, gas for plane and bus rides, and higher costs for every good that uses transportation for distribution has gone up since our last coach) has gone up dramatically over the last 4-5 years, while our revenue has been stagnant. But we are supposed to believe that we are better off economically now than before. Have you ever heard of profit, margins, and what percent margins a business must maintain to stay in business?
You didn't even read the other thread you "cleverly" made a personal attack about me after midnight on a Friday night did you? This is still psychobabble. Expenses are reported, in detail, exactly how revenue is.


I'm dumb it down for you. If your costs go up incrementally year after year, but your overall income remanins stagnant, your profit margins shrink incrementally. I used your revenue stats and applied them in real life terms. So by your numbers our men's BBall "Profit Margin" is shrinking under Ray. Please elaborate with your inquisite business skills how this can be viewed as something positive? Unless we are getting our electricity donated there's no way we are clearing more now than 4 years ago if your revenue numbers are correct.
Yep -- still herp derping with that foot in your mouth.


What business economics are you using if you believe we are better off economicallyNow?
The business economics of "reading and understanding official federal income tax data from Mississippi State -- which include detailed revenue and expense reports".

In other words -- this isn't even economics. Economics is factored into the accounting. This is simple arithmetic and reading comprehension. 2 things you lack in great abundance. Economics. Lmao.

[codeDawg]

Does it not stand to reason that a very good/much improved defense is a significant contributing factor for less offense? Deeper shot clock -- fewer possessions -- fewer points. I don't have a premium kenpom subscription to verify it -- but I believe it will show that our offensive efficiency is about the same as last year. Which is, by no means, good enough -- but I sincerely doubt the dropoff that the PPG snapshot would project...

Slightly improved offensive efficiency year over year from 260 to 240. We went from the 25th percentile to the 31st. We're in the back of the pack in the SEC on offensive efficiency with Missouri coming up next at 185. Offense is just horrid.

Teams ranked worse than us in offensive efficiency in the past 14 years (note that Ray's first year was the worst in the SEC in this period):

MSU - 2014 (260)
Texas A&M - 2013 (276)
MSU - 2013 (326)
Auburn - 2013 (252)
Auburn - 2011 (284)
LSU - 2011 (307)
LSU - 2010 (249)
Georgia - 2009 (281)
Georgia - 2005 (299)
Arkansas - 2003 (250)
Auburn - 2002 (262)

[engie]

Slightly improved offensive efficiency year over year from 260 to 240. We went from the 25th percentile to the 31st. We're in the back of the pack in the SEC on offensive efficiency with Missouri coming up next at 185. Offense is just horrid.

Teams ranked worse than us in offensive efficiency in the past 14 years (note that Ray's first year was the worst in the SEC in this period):

MSU - 2014 (260)
Texas A&M - 2013 (276)
MSU - 2013 (326)
Auburn - 2013 (252)
Auburn - 2011 (284)
LSU - 2011 (307)
LSU - 2010 (249)
Georgia - 2009 (281)
Georgia - 2005 (299)
Arkansas - 2003 (250)
Auburn - 2002 (262)

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

[dawgs]

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

We are still only 113th in adjusted D, so still well below ncaa tourney quality. We need big improvement on D and an astronomical improvement on O.

[dawgs]

I wouldn't be mad if we hired a new coach this year. I'm nowhere near sold ray can get us where we need to be. I just don't think there's any way we fire Ray, so I'm trying to keep an open mind and hope for the best

Just because he's apparently gonna get another year doesn't make it right. Raise enough hell and maybe something can be done this year. If he's here next year, I hope we go undefeated, but that doesn't mean I can't voice my displeasure with were we are right now in his tenure, which is significantly off from where we expected to be in the W & L columns.

[engie]

We are still only 113th in adjusted D, so still well below ncaa tourney quality. We need big improvement on D and an astronomical improvement on O.

Largely related to our average of 15 turnovers per game.

This is absolutely a tournament-level defensive team that's prettymuch elite on that side other than point guard position...

[dawgs]

If you can't see there's improvement, you just can't look at it objectively. Are we close to being great? No, but we're close to being good. We're a player or 2 away imo. If ready and sword hadn't started the year hurt, zuppardo hadnt blown a knee, and staley played, we're in the nit no doubt. Injurues are part of it though. We just aren't talented enough to absorb injuries. Our talent level will be better next season though...

I've heard more than a few times that if cox hadnt gotten kicked off and market hadn't gotten hurt, we'd have won against OM. Why is that excuse valid for football (85 man roster), but not for basketball (13 man roster)?

Well I haven't seen anyone claim we would've beaten OM with cox and market. But if we're playing that comparison, the football team win 10 of their 11 other regular season games and didn't lose to the equivalent of sc-upstate multiple times.

[dawgs]

Largely related to our average of 15 turnovers per game.

This is absolutely a tournament-level defensive team that's prettymuch elite on that side other than point guard position...

"Elite"? Maybe you can argue we have a ncaa tourney caliber D but it ain't close to elite.

And I'm pretty sure things like TOs are factored into the adjusted D.

[codeDawg]

That's some good data. Which is about what I thought. Slight improvement on offense, big improvement on defense. If we could flip that script next year with just a slight defensive improvement and a big offensive improvement, we can be where we need to be. I think Zuppardo is going to give us a boost on that end and some of the freshmen may as well at least somewhat...

While that would be my hope, I think we are more likely to see more talented kids that still haven't been taught to run a half-court set, get open, and take high percentage shots (and pass, and dribble, and inbound...). I think the writing is on the wall with this one. Nobody in the conference is this bad in offense and recovers.

Look at the past teams with offenses so constantly bad. LSU under Trent Johnson started with an SEC championship, and a first round win in the NCAA tourney. He then went 11-20 twice (2-14, 3-13 SEC) before making it back into the NIT (7-9 SEC), which was not good enough. He went to TCU where he has stunk it up with awful offense until this year where his is still 3-11 in the conference.

Tony Barbee coached 2010 to 2014. He finished his career at 48-75, the lowest winning percentage of any coach ever at Auburn with more than 2 years there.

That Texas A&M team (should be 2014 above) payed outstanding defense (ranked 33) to go with crappy offense, and the offense recovered.

History is not on Ray's side.

[codeDawg]

Largely related to our average of 15 turnovers per game.

This is absolutely a tournament-level defensive team that's prettymuch elite on that side other than point guard position...

We are 10th in the SEC in defensive efficiency.

ETA: Didn't read the top part. Yes, we are a very good scoring defense because we force teams to shoot from the outside. I think we are 4th or 5th in the SEC there. That is the high point of this team.

[Goat from MSU]

Guys :This is all good data ,but and I say but after this game we play Vandy ,South Car. and Mo. We need to win all 3 games or we will be playing opening day in the SEC Tour. for the 3rd time in a row .Yes we have looked and played better but does a coach gets a fourth year just to pull us out of opening day play. Think about, let it sink in have our fan base been dull down that badly.

[smootness]

Guys :This is all good data ,but and I say but after this game we play Vandy ,South Car. and Mo. We need to win all 3 games or we will be playing opening day in the SEC Tour. for the 3rd time in a row .Yes we have looked and played better but does a coach gets a fourth year just to pull us out of opening day play. Think about, let it sink in have our fan base been dull down that badly.

No one thinks where we are is good enough.

Both sides need to at least enter the discussion honestly. Criticizing Ray by saying, 'Just getting to .500 in the SEC is now good enough for you guys?!' is ridiculous. Similarly, supporting Ray by saying, 'Hey, 'we're showing improvement by going from horrid to pretty darn horrid' is stupid.

We all knew when the decision was made to get rid of Stans that it was a move that would hurt us in the immediate future, and that was before we saw how many guys left, were injured, etc. I mean, Ray's first team had 1 point that had ever been scored in D1 basketball, combined. So we knew things would turn downward initially. But it was made to give us a chance to ultimately go higher than Stans had taken us.

If you told me that after 2 years of Ray, we were still at the bottom of the SEC, I would have said fine. Again, we all knew the first 2 years were essentially a loss and that we would be awful. However, if you told me that after 3 years we would be in the same place, I wouldn't have liked that. Time is running out for Ray, no doubt. He needs to produce a serious turnaround next year that shows us he can put a good team on the floor.

No one's expectations have been lowered for our program as a whole. No one thinks consistently missing the NCAAT, let alone the NIT, is good enough. If Ray proves that he can't ever get us even to where Stans had us, everyone will support him being removed.

And yes, the last 3 games for us are very important. We have to win at least 2 of them, or I will support a change being made.

[codeDawg]

Guys :This is all good data ,but and I say but after this game we play Vandy ,South Car. and Mo. We need to win all 3 games or we will be playing opening day in the SEC Tour. for the 3rd time in a row .Yes we have looked and played better but does a coach gets a fourth year just to pull us out of opening day play. Think about, let it sink in have our fan base been dull down that badly.

Oh, I agree. Not being the worst in one category doesn't mean you should get to keep coaching.

[Dawg61]

Great offense that is fun to watch tends to lead to a longer leash. If Ray is 5-9 SEC but 4th in offense I think he has less heat on his seat. Don't ever be terrible on offense basically.

[CottonDog]

Losers improve. Winners win. We aren't winning much.

[RougeDawg]

Losers improve. Winners win. We aren't winning much.

Come on now, why would you let reality get in the way of an agenda?**

[Schultzy]

No one thinks where we are is good enough.

Both sides need to at least enter the discussion honestly. Criticizing Ray by saying, 'Just getting to .500 in the SEC is now good enough for you guys?!' is ridiculous. Similarly, supporting Ray by saying, 'Hey, 'we're showing improvement by going from horrid to pretty darn horrid' is stupid.

We all knew when the decision was made to get rid of Stans that it was a move that would hurt us in the immediate future, and that was before we saw how many guys left, were injured, etc. I mean, Ray's first team had 1 point that had ever been scored in D1 basketball, combined. So we knew things would turn downward initially. But it was made to give us a chance to ultimately go higher than Stans had taken us.

If you told me that after 2 years of Ray, we were still at the bottom of the SEC, I would have said fine. Again, we all knew the first 2 years were essentially a loss and that we would be awful. However, if you told me that after 3 years we would be in the same place, I wouldn't have liked that. Time is running out for Ray, no doubt. He needs to produce a serious turnaround next year that shows us he can put a good team on the floor.

No one's expectations have been lowered for our program as a whole. No one thinks consistently missing the NCAAT, let alone the NIT, is good enough. If Ray proves that he can't ever get us even to where Stans had us, everyone will support him being removed.

And yes, the last 3 games for us are very important. We have to win at least 2 of them, or I will support a change being made.

Another really smart post of many from Smootness and I wil dispute something you said too. I used to think everyone agreed that replacing Stansbury would hurt us in the short term and lower expectations for the first few years would be obvious.
But not everyone seems to subscribe to this. If it's not agreed upon that we were a complete dumpster when Ray got here then there is no need in arguing with the Ray detractors. Them not understanding this fundamental reality makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the topic.
It can be argued as to how long it takes to rebuild but the expectations of where we should be with this group of upperclassmen bricklayers is unrealistic to me.
No basketball coach can look smart offensively when the roster can't shoot. You can teach shooting a little but you can't turn a slasher into Jeff Malone or Darryl Wilson.

[codeDawg]

It can be argued as to how long it takes to rebuild but the expectations of where we should be with this group of upperclassmen bricklayers is unrealistic to me.

I don't think anyone thinks we have a bunch of sharpshooters on this team, but offense is beyond bad. It's historically awful. They turn the ball over at a high rate, they do not get assists, they don't get open shots, and they don't take high percentage ones. They look like they don't know what they are doing because they haven't been adequately taught what to do. If we were just not very good on offense it would be one thing, but in year 3 we are putrid.

The only coaches in the SEC that have been this consistently bad on that side of the ball have continued to be terrible after getting fired. I'm not saying upgrading the roster wouldn't help, because it obviously would, but coaching is the crux of the problem.

[Schultzy]

I don't think anyone thinks we have a bunch of sharpshooters on this team, but offense is beyond bad. It's historically awful. They turn the ball over at a high rate, they do not get assists, they don't get open shots, and they don't take high percentage ones. They look like they don't know what they are doing because they haven't been adequately taught what to do. If we were just not very good on offense it would be one thing, but in year 3 we are putrid.

The only coaches in the SEC that have been this consistently bad on that side of the ball have continued to be terrible after getting fired. I'm not saying upgrading the roster wouldn't help, because it obviously would, but coaching is the crux of the problem.

But you don't design an offense around rubs and double screens for open 3's when you can't shoot.

You do what Ray has done which is to take it to the rim and draw fouls. We did this well the first half of the season but now the league has decided to take dribble penetration away from us as much as they can and force us to shoot from outside.

That is a difficult weakness do hide even for a great coach, if not impossible. The true test of Rick Ray will be if he can win when he has a decent roster. I hope he makes it long enough for us to find out.

I will agree his inbounds and press breaking approach needs to improve immediately. You have to get someone to the middle of the floor when breaking a press, trying to dribble your way out of it won't work at any level. He can improve here, though.

I just wish more people agreed on how far we had to come back from. And how terrible high school players are coached in the southeast. I love basketball and wonder if it will ever be played well again with the advent of AAU and players thinking they have to leave their high school and the accountability that is inherent there to their local community in terms of playing to win instead of playing for the highlight reel to be sent out to colleges.

It has hurt SEC basketball greatly and college hoops on the whole as well. To me, even watching a top ten matchup is bad basketball these days. Athletic, but bad basketball.

[smootness]

I actually think we're good at breaking the press. Most of our turnovers come from dumb plays in the halfcourt.

Our problem against the press is that even when we break it, we don't have guys that can really capitalize on that.

[maroonmania]

If it's not agreed upon that we were a complete dumpster when Ray got here then there is no need in arguing with the Ray detractors. Them not understanding this fundamental reality makes it impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the topic.


Well, we may have been a dumpster fire off the court but we were never a dumpster fire on the court other than at times we didn't play live up to maximum potential. Stans' last team was ranked in the Top 20 just 4 weeks prior to season's end and was a 1 seed in the NIT. Stans' teams never had losing records and were always competitive within the SEC. I was expecting to be pretty weak the first year Ray was here but anyone who says they knew or even thought we were going to have 3 straight overall losing records after changing coaches is likely not being honest either. Several things have contributed to it taking this long to try and pull ourselves up under Ray including 1. a ridiculous number of injuries, 2. extremely poor recruiting in the first couple of seasons, 3. very little emphasis on coaching up things offensively (ie., "the offense will take care of itself" attitude) and 4. lack of backing of Ray by the fanbase (many of the old Stans supporters have made it as difficult on Ray as Polk supporters did on Cohen). At this point I'm resigned to having Ray back again next year but I'm not seeing things ever really getting significantly better under him. Getting to middle of the pack in the SEC may be the ceiling with him. Hope he can prove me wrong. Now if we sign Malik that could be a game changer because it would bring back the fanbase, nearly assure us of having an NCAA tourney team next year and will help us with other top line recruits.

[smootness]

Well, we may have been a dumpster fire off the court but we were never a dumpster fire on the court other than at times we didn't play live up to maximum potential. Stans' last team was ranked in the Top 20 just 4 weeks prior to season's end and was a 1 seed in the NIT. Stans' teams never had losing records and were always competitive within the SEC.

We had one losing season and one .500 season under Stans.

And anyone pointing to that 2011-2012 team still winning 20 games is missing the reason that year was so bad. We had won 17 games the year before and were still only a 4 seed (not a 1) in the NIT that year with all that talent.

That was not a 'Well, we're still ok, so we can get better from here' kind of year. That was as good as it was going to get again. We have never had the kind of talent we had on that team. That's why it was such a big year for Stans...and we crashed and burned down the stretch and ended up being an average-at-best SEC team. It wasn't getting better than that going forward. That was our new ceiling.

So pointing to that year saying 'We were still at least playing in the postseason' seems to indicate some belief that we could still be pretty good. But again, that was as good as it was going to get from there. That wasn't an average year under Stans anymore, that was the new ceiling. We had won 17 the year before and would have won probably about 15 or so the next year.

[codeDawg]

But you don't design an offense around rubs and double screens for open 3's when you can't shoot.

You do what Ray has done which is to take it to the rim and draw fouls. We did this well the first half of the season but now the league has decided to take dribble penetration away from us as much as they can and force us to shoot from outside.

That is a difficult weakness do hide even for a great coach, if not impossible. The true test of Rick Ray will be if he can win when he has a decent roster. I hope he makes it long enough for us to find out.

I will agree his inbounds and press breaking approach needs to improve immediately. You have to get someone to the middle of the floor when breaking a press, trying to dribble your way out of it won't work at any level. He can improve here, though.

I just wish more people agreed on how far we had to come back from. And how terrible high school players are coached in the southeast. I love basketball and wonder if it will ever be played well again with the advent of AAU and players thinking they have to leave their high school and the accountability that is inherent there to their local community in terms of playing to win instead of playing for the highlight reel to be sent out to colleges.

It has hurt SEC basketball greatly and college hoops on the whole as well. To me, even watching a top ten matchup is bad basketball these days. Athletic, but bad basketball.

Serious question. What makes you think Ray is the guy to be successful here? The question isn't why it was / is hard to succeed from where we were, but what is it that Ray has shown that indicates he will win at the level we are all looking for?

[smootness]

Serious question. What makes you think Ray is the guy to be successful here? The question isn't why it was / is hard to succeed from where we were, but what is it that Ray has shown that indicates he will win at the level we are all looking for?

The things I like from Ray's teams, and they've been pretty consistent, are the defense, the consistent effort and energy, and the fact that they seem to be fully bought in. He has yet to lose a team despite losing a lot of games. Those are the primary positives.

The negatives mostly have to do with talent. Turnovers, jump shooting, post offense, etc. Those are the primary negatives. And they're big negatives, no doubt.

The question is, do I think he can turn it around? And I'm not sold one way or the other. I'm less sold that he can do it than I was a year or two ago, but at the same time, his recruiting is picking up, and I think the talent level has been the main negative.

So if he can increase the talent while at the very least keeping the positives we've seen, some of those negatives should turn around. But if next year's team still struggles like this, then it's probably time to make a move.

[msstate7]

The things I like from Ray's teams, and they've been pretty consistent, are the defense, the consistent effort and energy, and the fact that they seem to be fully bought in. He has yet to lose a team despite losing a lot of games. Those are the primary positives.

The negatives mostly have to do with talent. Turnovers, jump shooting, post offense, etc. Those are the primary negatives. And they're big negatives, no doubt.

The question is, do I think he can turn it around? And I'm not sold one way or the other. I'm less sold that he can do it than I was a year or two ago, but at the same time, his recruiting is picking up, and I think the talent level has been the main negative.

So if he can increase the talent while at the very least keeping the positives we've seen, some of those negatives should turn around. But if next year's team still struggles like this, then it's probably time to make a move.

That's the problem with the stansbury fanatics left here... Not bashing ray = we think ray is john wooden. Some of us just aren't as hasty to pull the plug. Some of us want to give ray his final year. None of us are certain ray is the answer

[maroonmania]

We had one losing season and one .500 season under Stans.

And anyone pointing to that 2011-2012 team still winning 20 games is missing the reason that year was so bad. We had won 17 games the year before and were still only a 4 seed (not a 1) in the NIT that year with all that talent.

That was not a 'Well, we're still ok, so we can get better from here' kind of year. That was as good as it was going to get again. We have never had the kind of talent we had on that team. That's why it was such a big year for Stans...and we crashed and burned down the stretch and ended up being an average-at-best SEC team. It wasn't getting better than that going forward. That was our new ceiling.

So pointing to that year saying 'We were still at least playing in the postseason' seems to indicate some belief that we could still be pretty good. But again, that was as good as it was going to get from there. That wasn't an average year under Stans anymore, that was the new ceiling. We had won 17 the year before and would have won probably about 15 or so the next year.

Yea, correct on the seeding, we were a mid-level NIT team by the time it got to that point. I had just remembered we hosted. To the point though, winning 17 games the year before and winning 21 games in 2012 is not a dumpster fire ON THE COURT which was what I was addressing. I know there were big issues off the court that needed addressing and its a shame that Stans would rather "retire" than do that. Just losing Sidney and Bost would have helped on that front though. And yes, we would have been weaker the next year under Stans, but not as weak as we were with Ray because Rodney Hood and Josh Gray IMO would have also been on that team. Also, Lewis and Steele would not have fallen out of favor and Stans would have recruited his way back to another very competitive team by the next year, its just what he did. And I will also agree that barely making the NCAA tourney every now and then was probably Stans' ceiling going forward but that is about the most I ever see Ray doing either if even that. Off the court are our only improvements with the coaching change at this point. But hey, we play hard.

Will just add though that I was on the fence when we got rid of Stans so I wasn't upset about it, just think the hire we made wasn't the right one at the time. Still don't understand why a guy like Kermit Davis with a good coaching HC record and MSU ties wasn't given more consideration if we were just going to hire some unknown staff member off a lower tier ACC basketball program.

[smootness]

So you agree that barely making the NCAA Tournament was the new ceiling for the program, and you're ok with that?

As has been stated way more times than should have been necessary, getting rid of Stans is a different argument than hiring Ray. If you don't think Ray is the guy, fine. But that doesn't mean we should have kept Stans.

If you think we should have kept Stans, given what you just said, I'm not sure what to say. We certainly wouldn't accept that from any of our other athletic programs.

It's also funny, btw, that you think getting rid of Bost would have helped the off-court issues while also bringing in Gray and keeping Lewis.

And yes, 21 wins with the talent we had was a dumpster fire. I don't care if you're a 4 seed in the NIT with ridiculous talent or a 13-win team with no talent. They're both embarrassing, unacceptable, and not enjoyable.

[maroonmania]

So you agree that barely making the NCAA Tournament was the new ceiling for the program, and you're ok with that?.

I'm becoming more OK with it. If we are not willing to recruit in basketball the way things are done now the new ceiling may be the NIT.


As has been stated way more times than should have been necessary, getting rid of Stans is a different argument than hiring Ray. If you don't think Ray is the guy, fine. But that doesn't mean we should have kept Stans.

Like I said, I was on the fence. I had no doubts about getting rid of Sherrill, Croom and Polk at the times we did, but I knew in basketball if we made the wrong move we could slide down even from where we were.


If you think we should have kept Stans, given what you just said, I'm not sure what to say. We certainly wouldn't accept that from any of our other athletic programs.

I was OK making the change but not if we didn't have a solid, high quality to hire to replace him with.


It's also funny, btw, that you think getting rid of Bost would have helped the off-court issues while also bringing in Gray and keeping Lewis.

Sidney and Bost had major issues with team chemistry; Lewis smoked weed but I don't know that he had problems with teammates, Gray doesn't seem to be destroying LSU.


And yes, 21 wins with the talent we had was a dumpster fire. I don't care if you're a 4 seed in the NIT with ridiculous talent or a 13-win team with no talent. They're both embarrassing, unacceptable, and not enjoyable.

Well at least I got to enjoy a great pre-season tournament championship and a rise to 15th in the rankings before all fell apart. This year the season essentially ended in December before the SEC even started.

[smootness]

Well at least I got to enjoy a great pre-season tournament championship and a rise to 15th in the rankings before all fell apart. This year the season essentially ended in December before the SEC even started.

If watching a team with unlimited potential crashing and burning and losing to legitimately bad teams is something you like, then go ahead.

Again, no one is saying that what we have currently is good enough. Literally no one. Not one single person.

[maroonmania]

If watching a team with unlimited potential crashing and burning and losing to legitimately bad teams is something you like, then go ahead.

Again, no one is saying that what we have currently is good enough. Literally no one. Not one single person.

Like I said, the crash and burn was only the last month and I certainly enjoyed that season up until that point. Hated the way it ended. And we didn't lose to any "legitimately bad teams" on the level of Ark. St., McNeese St., and USC Upstate. Now THOSE are bad teams.

[HancockCountyDog]

If watching a team with unlimited potential crashing and burning and losing to legitimately bad teams is something you like, then go ahead.

Sign me up for watching a team with unlimited potential. That sounds like fun.

I've watched a team with clearly a limited potential the last three years. If like to go into each game actually thinking we had a chance to win.

[smootness]

Like I said, the crash and burn was only the last month and I certainly enjoyed that season up until that point. Hated the way it ended. And we didn't lose to any "legitimately bad teams" on the level of Ark. St., McNeese St., and USC Upstate. Now THOSE are bad teams.

We lost to Akron, and several bad SEC teams.

[smootness]

Sign me up for watching a team with unlimited potential. That sounds like fun.

I've watched a team with clearly a limited potential the last three years. If like to go into each game actually thinking we had a chance to win.

The talent level had unlimited potential. The whole thing together did not...thus what we saw actually happen.

[Schultzy]

Serious question. What makes you think Ray is the guy to be successful here? The question isn't why it was / is hard to succeed from where we were, but what is it that Ray has shown that indicates he will win at the level we are all looking for?

I don't know if he will succeed or not but I think its too early to tell because of the roster situation he inherited. We play solid half court defense, we try to push it up the floor for easy baskets off of stops, and it looks like to me we get a good many open looks at the basket during the coarse of a game.

I just don't see how this short body of work with this group of very average players could tell anyone whether he is a coach who can win at the level we are all looking for. That's why I don't get why people are so adamant that he cant.

[Schultzy]

Well, we may have been a dumpster fire off the court but we were never a dumpster fire on the court other than at times we didn't play live up to maximum potential. Stans' last team was ranked in the Top 20 just 4 weeks prior to season's end and was a 1 seed in the NIT. Stans' teams never had losing records and were always competitive within the SEC. I was expecting to be pretty weak the first year Ray was here but anyone who says they knew or even thought we were going to have 3 straight overall losing records after changing coaches is likely not being honest either. Several things have contributed to it taking this long to try and pull ourselves up under Ray including 1. a ridiculous number of injuries, 2. extremely poor recruiting in the first couple of seasons, 3. very little emphasis on coaching up things offensively (ie., "the offense will take care of itself" attitude) and 4. lack of backing of Ray by the fanbase (many of the old Stans supporters have made it as difficult on Ray as Polk supporters did on Cohen). At this point I'm resigned to having Ray back again next year but I'm not seeing things ever really getting significantly better under him. Getting to middle of the pack in the SEC may be the ceiling with him. Hope he can prove me wrong. Now if we sign Malik that could be a game changer because it would bring back the fanbase, nearly assure us of having an NCAA tourney team next year and will help us with other top line recruits.

I was speaking to the roster situation Ray inherited, not how we played prior to that.

[codeDawg]

I don't know if he will succeed or not but I think its too early to tell because of the roster situation he inherited. We play solid half court defense, we try to push it up the floor for easy baskets off of stops, and it looks like to me we get a good many open looks at the basket during the coarse of a game.

I just don't see how this short body of work with this group of very average players could tell anyone whether he is a coach who can win at the level we are all looking for. That's why I don't get why people are so adamant that he cant.

Do you think we owe it to someone we're paying over a million dollars a year to wait for him to get above average players before he proves his team can play at an average level? Does this look like a guy that is overachieving with inferior talent, or a guy that is getting by blaming the situation and players? Keep in mind that in year 3, this is the 12th worst offensive SEC team in the past 14 years (I think that's out of 174 teams), and two of the 14 are his too.

[dawgs]

I don't know if he will succeed or not but I think its too early to tell because of the roster situation he inherited. We play solid half court defense, we try to push it up the floor for easy baskets off of stops, and it looks like to me we get a good many open looks at the basket during the coarse of a game.

I just don't see how this short body of work with this group of very average players could tell anyone whether he is a coach who can win at the level we are all looking for. That's why I don't get why people are so adamant that he cant.

Well part of the problem is if he can't win with an average roster, his recruiting just hasn't been good enough to give himself anything more than an average roster. Sword, fred, and ware were all high 3*/low 4* recruits if I remember correctly and they are in year 3 of playing 35+ min and haven't significantly improved since their freshman season (of course experience will lead to some improvement). Our recruiting since then hasn't been nearly as good, yet y'all expect ray to recruit himself a better roster?

Year 1 was a throw away. I think ray did about as good as anyone in tr country could've done with that roster. Maybe coach K squeezes out 1-2 more Ws, but that's about it. Year 2 was a disaster. And year 3 has been a disaster. 3 years ago everyone said that the NIT in year 3 would be a reasonable expectation. Instead we are most likely gonna finish under .500. And there's not any reasonable expectation to expect dramatic improvement anytime soon. So spare me the "it's too soon to pass judgment" bullshit. The job just ain't getting done and we are better off moving along sooner rather than later. There's not a coach in the world that would be hesitant to take a job because the predecessor was fired after not being able to break .500 in any of his 3 seasons.

[maroonmania]

I was speaking to the roster situation Ray inherited, not how we played prior to that.

Well just to remind folks, per Rivals both Ware and Sword were 4 star recruits coming out of HS and were handed to Ray in the "dumpster fire roster" along with 5 star Rodney Hood who he couldn't convince to stay. Ray has now gotten his first 4 star recruit with Simonds who will not even be on the roster until year after next. Bottom line is Ray had plenty to build around when arriving that his 3rd year should have been quite good, he has just failed to bring in the additional pieces (like a perimeter shooter and a better ball handler) that would have made this team an upper half SEC team. I don't know of any coach that takes over a program where the prior coach was relieved of his duties where everything is ideal. Its the new coach's job to get things back on track and it shouldn't take 4 or 5 years to do in basketball.

[msugolf]

Well just to remind folks, per Rivals both Ware and Sword were 4 star recruits coming out of HS and were handed to Ray in the "dumpster fire roster" along with 5 star Rodney Hood who he couldn't convince to stay. Ray has now gotten his first 4 star recruit with Simonds who will not even be on the roster until year after next. Bottom line is Ray had plenty to build around when arriving that his 3rd year should have been quite good, he has just failed to bring in the additional pieces (like a perimeter shooter and a better ball handler) that would have made this team an upper half SEC team. I don't know of any coach that takes over a program where the prior coach was relieved of his duties where everything is ideal. Its the new coach's job to get things back on track and it shouldn't take 4 or 5 years to do in basketball.

Not to mention in 3 years of being here, the only one of his recruits we are getting positive production from is Ready. 3 years and only 1 contributor.... That's ridiculous.

[maroonmania]

Not to mention in 3 years of being here, the only one of his recruits we are getting positive production from is Ready. 3 years and only 1 contributor.... That's ridiculous.

Another issue that bugs me is Ray was unwilling to let Steele sit out last year when he wanted to in order to get healthy. Instead he told him to play last year or leave. Can you imagine how much better this team could be with an outside shooting guard like Steele as a 5th yr SR? Its EXACTLY what we don't have. But no, Ray had to get other guys onto the roster, most of whom aren't really contributing at all on offense, and here we sit.

[Goat from MSU]

Spot on. I thought the same thing Steele could have brought 5 more wins this year . Truth is Ray has been trying to run off all the leftover Stansbury players since he got here.
Another issue that bugs me is Ray was unwilling to let Steele sit out last year when he wanted to in order to get healthy. Instead he told him to play last year or leave. Can you imagine how much better this team could be with an outside shooting guard like Steele as a 5th yr SR? Its EXACTLY what we don't have. But no, Ray had to get other guys onto the roster, most of whom aren't really contributing at all on offense, and here we sit.

[Goat from MSU]

Before you Ray Guys get your panties in a wad ,the most of the leftovers did shoot themselves in the ass ,but Ray should have been prepared for this which he was not .

[Political Hack]

All I know is that being a loser is better than having players that wear wife beaters.

[maroonmania]

Spot on. I thought the same thing Steele could have brought 5 more wins this year . Truth is Ray has been trying to run off all the leftover Stansbury players since he got here.

Yep, these are the things that immediately remind you of Croom where yes, the program had hit bottom, but does the new coach really have to come in and dig you 5 feet deeper before trying to start turning things around including trying to excise players simply because they played for the previous coach? And doing so even though they could help you in getting things turned around faster?

[Schultzy]

All I know is that being a loser is better than having players that wear wife beaters.

The wife beater wearers were big time losers. Nice try though.

[Schultzy]

All I know is that being a loser is better than having players that wear wife beaters.

The wife beater wearers were big time losers. Nice try though.

[Schultzy]

Yep, these are the things that immediately remind you of Croom where yes, the program had hit bottom, but does the new coach really have to come in and dig you 5 feet deeper before trying to start turning things around including trying to excise players simply because they played for the previous coach? And doing so even though they could help you in getting things turned around faster?
The whole Croom/Ray meme is total bullshit and mentally lazy.

[Dawg61]

The whole Croom/Ray meme is total bullshit and mentally lazy.

Disagree. Ray is Croom 2.0. Even has the historically shitty offense.

[maroonmania]

The whole Croom/Ray meme is total bullshit and mentally lazy.

Gracious, don't be so sensitive, I was only comparing them in the methods used to "clean up the program" and not wanting players leftover from the old coach. In that, the comparison definitely has merit. People who like Ray get so touchy about the whole Croom/Ray thing.

[msstate7]

Gracious, don't be so sensitive, I was only comparing them in the methods used to "clean up the program" and not wanting players leftover from the old coach. In that, the comparison definitely has merit. People who like Ray get so touchy about the whole Croom/Ray thing.

If ray is croom 2, then you guys should be happy. Croom cleaned up our program and left mullen with some decent talent to win with

[Dawg61]

If ray is croom 2, then you guys should be happy. Croom cleaned up our program and left mullen with some decent talent to win with

Yea. Only problem is waiting another year before getting our basketball Mullen.

[msstate7]

Yea. Only problem is waiting another year before getting our basketball Mullen.

Just think if we fired croom after year 3, we wouldn't have mullen

[maroonmania]

If ray is croom 2, then you guys should be happy. Croom cleaned up our program and left mullen with some decent talent to win with

First, I've never called Ray Croom 2. Second, I don't personally believe that to "clean up the program" that every decent player that was there before you arrived has to be run off. It just forces you to take a MUCH longer path back to being competitive. Like I said, Steele could have made a world of difference to this team but it seems Ray didn't care because he wasn't his guy.

[msstate7]

First, I've never called Ray Croom 2. Second, I don't personally believe that to "clean up the program" that every decent player that was there before you arrived has to be run off. It just forces you to take a MUCH longer path back to being competitive. Like I said, Steele could have made a world of difference to this team but it seems Ray didn't care because he wasn't his guy.

Didn't Steele fail multiple drug tests or am I thinking of someone else?

[Dawg61]

Just think if we fired croom after year 3, we wouldn't have mullen

Yea we would and he'd be ahead of where we're at currently.

[maroonmania]

Didn't Steele fail multiple drug tests or am I thinking of someone else?

Wendell Lewis supposedly did, and I don't know that Steele was a choir boy but when the issue of him wanting to redshirt instead of playing on the bad knee his true SR year came up there was never talk that he was being cut loose because of anything other than Ray didn't want to keep him on scholarship that long.