Croom vs Ray...let's not forget the simialarities

[Bully13]

let's not forget the bamer victory at home or the FL victory at home or the AU victory on the road or the CLASSIC egg bowl victory vs ya ya fool us into another wasted year. we've been there, let's not make the same mistake. let's not be fooled like we were TEMPORARILY by a few good wins in previous weeks.

We were sucked into believing but if we had looked into the overall production of day to day and game time to game time preparation overall, we had NO leadership at the helm.

let's not let that " give 'em an extra year" bullshit waste another year.

losing to a SWAC team at home during his 1st year should have told us something THEN.

it is TIME. and that TIME is NOW. NOT later.

we CAN do better and it's time for those with innovative minds and forward vision to make the call.

[bulldawg28]

Black? They are nothing in comparison. However, I won't waste my time going there. Croom actually inherited talent, Ray not at all.

[Bo Darville]

I think a Croom vs Ray comparison is unfair to both. Not the same type situation or sport. You are reaching in my opinion.

[codeDawg]

Here is what Hammer Down posted on SPS, and I think it was dead on:

1) State of the program when he took over
2) Follows a highly successful coach who set the standard
3) First objective is instilling 'discipline'
4) 3-4 year 'plans'
5) Offensive ineptitude
6) Fans divided
7) Lack of recruiting
8) First head coaching job, after really not having the typical qualifications
9) Appears Year 4 will be the peak

[codeDawg]

Black? They are nothing in comparison. However, I won't waste my time going there. Croom actually inherited talent, Ray not at all.

Croom inherited talent, then promptly ran it all off. Ray inherited a couple of guys he could work with, then managed to squander 2 years of recruiting (not unlike Sly). You can win a lot of games with 2-3 guys that can play. It doesn't take that long.

[Coach34]

You can win a lot of games with 2-3 guys that can play. It doesn't take that long.

i keep seeing this statement thrown out- but nobody ever provides examples of someone taking over a mess with no returning starters and promptly winning

[codeDawg]

i keep seeing this statement thrown out- but nobody ever provides examples of someone taking over a mess with no returning starters and promptly winning

You need 5 guys on the court. It doesn't take many bodies to improve the team significantly.

In addition to having a non-ideal roster, those players don't appear to have any idea what they are doing when they are out there. So there is that...

[Dawg61]

i keep seeing this statement thrown out- but nobody ever provides examples of someone taking over a mess with no returning starters and promptly winning

There's not many power 5 jobs that come open every year and even less that have no returning starters. SMU sucked horrible ass in basketball till just recently. Larry Brown already has them ranked in 2 years.

[Coach34]

So you're saying it took a Hall of Fame coach that has won a Natty to do it in 3 years- and even they didn't have no starters returning. Ok

[Coach34]

This is Year 3 for Brown- not 2...hired in 2012

[Dawg61]

So you're saying it took a Hall of Fame coach that has won a Natty to do it in 3 years- and even they didn't have no starters returning. Ok

You don't get to play on that side of the fence dude. You were #1 in leading the charge. We are the suck. Standing behind this suck for even one day longer means you want the suck to continue. Ray leaving THIS year is the only option. We can either stop the suck NOW or the suck will continue for a decade straight. Do you want to miss out on the NCAA for a decade?

[Coach34]

I'm just pointing out facts- that's all

If he can't win more than 5 SEC games I want him gone too- I just know it isn't going to happen

[Dawg61]

I'm just pointing out facts- that's all

If he can't win more than 5 SEC games I want him gone too- I just know it isn't going to happen

You're right that it is more difficult to be successful right away with almost no returning starters. That's why Ray must go at the end of THIS YEAR. Next coach gets four of five returning starters and 7 of the top 8 guys on the team back for next year. His cupboard will be full for a year to give him time to recruit his replacements.

[codeDawg]

This is Year 3 for Brown- not 2...hired in 2012

This year: 19-5 (so far)
2013-14: 27-10.
2012-13: 15-17

Before:
2011-12: 13-18

[codeDawg]

So you're saying it took a Hall of Fame coach that has won a Natty to do it in 3 years- and even they didn't have no starters returning. Ok

Nobody has said his job isn't hard. What I'm saying is that we need someone up to the task. Accepting Ray is accepting not getting it done.

[Liverpooldawg]

Suicide is never pretty. That is essentially what we did with men's basketball.

[Coach34]

Suicide is never pretty. That is essentially what we did with men's basketball.

What we did was more like a leg amputation to keep the gang green from getting worse. And when you lose a leg- you have to start over and re-define yourself

[Raytoraid83]

What we did was more like a leg amputation to keep the gang green from getting worse. And when you lose a leg- you have to start over and re-define yourself

Why keep this argument going? It's obvious Ray is the not the guy, the same way it was obvious the day he was hired. When stansbury was fired many guys in the know said be careful who you hire because Miss St is not as easy of a job as it appears. The wrong hire can set this program in a freefall. (Don't turn this in a Stans/Ray argument. It was obvious Stansbury needed to step away). Well the wrong hire happened and right now we are in an inevitable cycle of suck. Bring back Ray, will be better next year? Id hope so but won't be anywhere close to ncaa tourney good(put the Malik dream to bed). Then what? Start the cycle all over again. Why do we have to turn a three year mistake into a ten year mistake? There are plenty of applicable candidates who would be more willing to accept the job now. Let's move on and get this program and fanbase back to where we expect and deserve to be.

[codeDawg]

Why keep this argument going? It's obvious Ray is the not the guy, the same way it was obvious the day he was hired. When stansbury was fired many guys in the know said be careful who you hire because Miss St is not as easy of a job as it appears. The wrong hire can set this program in a freefall. (Don't turn this in a Stans/Ray argument. It was obvious Stansbury needed to step away). Well the wrong hire happened and right now we are in an inevitable cycle of suck. Bring back Ray, will be better next year? Id hope so but won't be anywhere close to ncaa tourney good(put the Malik dream to bed). Then what? Start the cycle all over again. Why do we have to turn a three year mistake into a ten year mistake? There are plenty of applicable candidates who would be more willing to accept the job now. Let's move on and get this program and fanbase back to where we expect and deserve to be.

Exactly. This is not about Stansbury. We should be looking at this as we are here. We want to be there. What are the best actions we can take to get from here to there in the shortest amount of time.

Ray hasn't done anything to make me think he can do anything to accomplish our goals in short order. Let's find someone who can. It's a hard job. It will be hard to find someone that can do it. That's what SS gets paid to do, so let's do it and quit wasting time.

[PMDawg]

Exactly. This is not about Stansbury. We should be looking at this as we are here. We want to be there. What are the best actions we can take to get from here to there in the shortest amount of time.

Ray hasn't done anything to make me think he can do anything to accomplish our goals in short order. Let's find someone who can. It's a hard job. It will be hard to find someone that can do it. That's what SS gets paid to do, so let's do it and quit wasting time.

That's right. And what evidence is out there that Ray will ever get better? I can't find any.

[Martianlander]

I will just say coaching matters. In the 1994/1995 season when Mike Krzyzewski was out most of the year with his back, he was 9 and 3, then Pete Gaudet went 4 and 15. The next year Krzyzewski had Duke right back up there.

[maroonmania]

So you're saying it took a Hall of Fame coach that has won a Natty to do it in 3 years- and even they didn't have no starters returning. Ok

I've really never had major issues with Ray until this year as I've said on several occasions. Did I see some things that concerned me a little, yes, but I've been very sympathetic to the "no returning starters when he got here", "plagued by injuries", "Stans supporters won't give him a chance", "never had a full roster", etc. etc. BUT, THIS year, none of those things are true and most of his core contributors now on this team have been under his coaching for 3 years with either no or only slight improvement in their level of play. First 2 years I was more than willing to give Ray a complete pass. But this year there is absolutely no excuse for this team to be sitting at 10-13 for the year with some of the losses we have. And now, why should I believe that essentially these same players will somehow next year evolve into anything more than a NIT bubble team AT BEST (especially now that we've pretty much all conceded Malik isn't coming)? Then we start over again.

[RougeDawg]

That's right. And what evidence is out there that Ray will ever get better? I can't find any.

Nope. And is SS gives Ray another season, I hope Keenum is performing a new AD and HC search simultaneously in 2016. No excuse for Strick to give another year at all.

[WeWonItAll(Most)]

What we did was more like a leg amputation to keep the gang green from getting worse. And when you lose a leg- you have to start over and re-define yourself
And now the amputation is infected, and if something isn't done, the infection will spread and we'll be no better than we were before

[MadDawg]

What we did was more like a leg amputation WHEN WE HAD AN INGROWN TOENAIL.

There. Fixed it for you.

[defiantdog]

Croom and Ray were/are both out of their leagues when it comes to head coaching. Croom may be a good position coach and Ray may be a good assistant coach, but neither should be the head coach of a relevant team. I wanted to give Croom a chance when I was in college, but that was destroyed when we lost to Maine. I wanted to give Ray a chance but going 4-14 and 3-15 in back to back years in the SEC and getting destroyed by Arkansas State and McNeese State diminished those chances.

Ray isn't a good coach and neither was Croom. If Scott gives Ray another year, then we'll be bickering over this shit again next year. If he fires him now, then we actually have a shot at getting a coach with decent experience like LSU did with Johnny Jones. Until then, I can't wait till baseball season starts.

[NCDawg]

Nope. And is SS gives Ray another season, I hope Keenum is performing a new AD and HC search simultaneously in 2016. No excuse for Strick to give another year at all.

I'm pretty sure Stricklin will give Ray another year because he does not want to admit that he hired the wrong guy yet. I don't believe Keenum will even consider replacing Stricklin due to Bailey Howell's influence.

[THE Bruce Dickinson]

We had an opportunity to possibly hire Larry Brown in 2012. Heard this directly from someone in the athletic department. We didn't even look into it.

I don't have many sources and am usually not the person who hears stuff like that, but it is true.

[Dawg61]

We had an opportunity to possibly hire Larry Brown in 2012. Heard this directly from someone in the athletic department. We didn't even look into it.

I don't have many sources and am usually not the person who hears stuff like that, but it is true.

Doesn't surprise me one bit from Keenum & Strick

[Quaoarsking]

I really don't understand the argument that firing Ray in 2016 sets us back 10 years but firing him in 2015 sets us back much less. That's just completely out-of-the-ass figuring right there.

If Ray is fired in 2015 or 2016, it's up to the next coach whether we're set back a little bit or a whole lot, and it could plausibly be either one at either year.

[Dawg61]

I really don't understand the argument that firing Ray in 2016 sets us back 10 years but firing him in 2015 sets us back much less. That's just completely out-of-the-ass figuring right there.

If Ray is fired in 2015 or 2016, it's up to the next coach whether we're set back a little bit or a whole lot, and it could plausibly be either one at either year.

You serious? After next season Sword, Thomas, Ware and Daniels all leave. That doesn't leave an enticing roster for the next guy. We want to set our next coach up for success the best way possible. That means giving him a senior laden team and a full year to recruit his replacements for his system. There is no option here. Calculated risks have to be made. We should all understand by now that Ray isn't going to get it done. Therefore again the best thing for the new coach is to give him a full rostered team of 13 with 4 seniors starting. We are shooting both feet if we wait another year and then hire a new coach with a decimated roster.

[Homedawg]

I will just say coaching matters. In the 1994/1995 season when Mike Krzyzewski was out most of the year with his back, he was 9 and 3, then Pete Gaudet went 4 and 15. The next year Krzyzewski had Duke right back up there.

Actually duke went 18-13 the following year and 8-8 in the acc. Didn't exactly get right back up there.

[Quaoarsking]

You serious? After next season Sword, Thomas, Ware and Daniels all leave. That doesn't leave an enticing roster for the next guy. We want to set our next coach up for success the best way possible. That means giving him a senior laden team and a full year to recruit his replacements for his system. There is no option here. Calculated risks have to be made. We should all understand by now that Ray isn't going to get it done. Therefore again the best thing for the new coach is to give him a full rostered team of 13 with 4 seniors starting. We are shooting both feet if we wait another year and then hire a new coach with a decimated roster.

And that translates to 10 years how?

Either new coach starts in 2015-16 with the 3 seniors, then probably regresses in 2016-17 without them, and then it's up to him afterward.
Or new coach starts in 2016-17 without them, and it's up to him afterward.

Firing Ray now rather than 1 year from now has no bearing whatsoever on how good we are in 2025.


And to clarify, I'm speaking in hypotheticals here. Ideally, we'd keep Ray, get to the NCAA Tournament in 2016, and continue to be good with him. I also don't buy the theory that we're automatically going to be awful in 2016-17 without Ware/Sword/Thomas, since we are bringing in good talent in the next couple recruiting classes and we have several young players on the roster already with potential.

[Dawg61]

I'm including Stans last year in the decade long suck prediction. After this year we are already almost half way there. After next year we will be at five years. New coach with no players can quickly be another full cycle of four years of suck which puts us at 9 years. What we do this year ripples into the following four years so yea I'm basically saying that we MUST make the new hire THIS YEAR to stop the suck cycle. Unless we can hire a magician after next year we will quickly be ****ed a whole lot longer than a lot of you are seeing right now. Next few months are huge in determining the basketball programs success or failure.

[thf24]

If we fired Ray after 2016, the roster would be marginally better talent-wise compared to post-2011-2012, and without the cancerous locker room culture. I've asked this several times and no one pushing this line seems to have an answer - why should it have taken a decent coach one, two years tops to turn us around after 2012, as we've heard ad nauseam from the 2013 off season up to now, but after 2016 it will be a hopeless 5-10 year disaster no matter who we hire?

[msugolf]

If we fired Ray after 2016, the roster would be marginally better talent-wise compared to post-2011-2012, and without the cancerous locker room culture. I've asked this several times and no one pushing this line seems to have an answer - why should it have taken a decent coach one, two years tops to turn us around after 2012, as we've heard ad nauseam from the 2013 off season up to now, but after 2016 it will be a hopeless 5-10 year disaster no matter who we hire?

I don't think it will take 5-10 years to recover for a new coach. However, if Ray stays I do think it will be at least 4-5 more years from now until we get to postseason play. I have seen very little improvement in Ware, Thomas, Sword in the 3 years Ray has been here. In some ways they've regressed. I'd like to see what a different coach could do with them during an offseason.

After Ware leaves, we'll have virtually no offensive threat in the post. Black is a decent athlete, and a solid role player but not someone you want to count on to get you a bucket in crunch time. He's more of a brandon vincent type. Ray has completely botched recruiting at the 3, 4 and 5 position and gone strictly for defense and raw athletes. In 2016-17, we'll have 2 offensive options when we need a bucket and they're both guards, Weatherspoon or Ready/Tookie (both won't be on the court at the same time). We are setting up our future team with a bunch of players who we hope develop. That's a recipe for disaster.

[thf24]

I don't think it will take 5-10 years to recover for a new coach. However, if Ray stays I do think it will be at least 4-5 more years from now until we get to postseason play. I have seen very little improvement in Ware, Thomas, Sword in the 3 years Ray has been here. In some ways they've regressed. I'd like to see what a different coach could do with them during an offseason.

After Ware leaves, we'll have virtually no offensive threat in the post. Black is a decent athlete, and a solid role player but not someone you want to count on to get you a bucket in crunch time. He's more of a brandon vincent type. Ray has completely botched recruiting at the 3, 4 and 5 position and gone strictly for defense and raw athletes. In 2016-17, we'll have 2 offensive options when we need a bucket and they're both guards, Weatherspoon or Ready/Tookie (both won't be on the court at the same time). We are setting up our future team with a bunch of players who we hope develop. That's a recipe for disaster.

I agree with all of that. What I was getting at is the ridiculousness of certain people claiming that whoever our next coach is will have a tougher hill to climb than Ray or any other hypothetical coach we might have hired in 2012 had. If anything, it'll be a little easier, even if Ray isn't gone until 2016.

[maroonmania]

To EVER say that rebuilding a basketball program is a 10 year job is a laughable joke! I mean we are talking about a sport where 8 or 9 people play the bulk of all the minutes. 8 or 9!! If you can recruit then it only takes about 2 to 3 years at most to turn around a program, if you can't recruit or your hands are tied in recruiting by your administration (which is possibly the situation we are in) then it will NEVER be turned around and is a lost cause anyway.