To re-visit Cadaver's point on Hevesy and the OL

[Coach34]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

[DudyDawg]

To be fair, you can't solely judge a line on rush yards. You're smarter than that

[War Machine Dawg]

http://i.imgur.com/JiC5KOU.gif

[HoopsDawg]

The O-line would be helped by an excellent blocking TE or FB.

I'm holding my breath on Helms. Rankin, Malone, Helms, Clayborn, Senior would make for a heck of an offense next year.

[nsvltndog]

Hard to argue with these points. We've got work to do replacing what we had on the OL this year, but Hevesy has definitely shown that he can put together an OL that has the talent and play level required to win the West. There are so many intangibles that come into play to do something like winning the SEC West. Look at Auburn in 2013 - miracle deflected catch vs. UGA, 109 yard FG return, and last second score against MSU have them completely overlooking any areas where they technically weren't good enough to win the West while we sit home doing what ifs this year.

Bottom line, until we actually win the west folks will be able to point to reasons why - but in my opinion that reason this year was in our defenses inability to stop big plays and not the Offensive Line. There are going to be big time physical battle games in the trenches in the West. You have to find other ways to win those - Bama and the Bears did, we didn't. We may have led the nation in red zone defense, but I bet we were in the bottom 10% in giving up huge plays.

[Bully13]

it just seems that at critical junctures of those 2 games when bamer and fredo were hell bent on stopping our running game, we just couldn't get it done. we've improved recruiting wise in most all other positions with the exception of OL which is hard to deny. and that still begs for an explanation as to why.

[engie]

it just seems that at critical junctures of those 2 games when bamer and fredo were hell bent on stopping our running game, we just couldn't get it done. we've improved recruiting wise in most all other positions with the exception of OL which is hard to deny. and that still begs for an explanation as to why.

The gist of the argument is that we should be able to line up and shove it down the best defenses in the country's throat whenever we want? Despite the fact that Dak threw all over both of them -- which shows a clear indication of how many men they were dedicating to our run game. I dunno if you've checked the recruiting class -- but we've actually improved the OL recruiting at the same time we improved the rest of it. We've hit on most of our primary targets in 2 of the last 3 classes.

I've been the first to complain about Hevesy at times in the past and he has deserved it at times -- it just seems strange as hell to complain right now after NO ONE shut us down. The year after his OL was statistically ALOT better than Turner's highly rated defensive line. And the year he'd gotten the #1 JUCO OT, another 4* OL(Champion, let us not forget), with a Freshman All-American at a position of need looking to transfer in as a JR with a waiver to play immediately...

[CadaverDawg]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

Garbage.

First of all I never said "we can't win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach", but good try. I simply said he has to start recruiting better.

Second of all, that was all I needed to see...but you can't base our OL talent and ability on yardage alone, because we picked up a lot of ground yards when we trailed by multiple scores and those teams were willing to give up ground yards to prevent quick scores.

Sorry, but this was a fail in every level, starting with putting words in my mouth.

[CadaverDawg]

The gist of the argument is that we should be able to line up and shove it down the best defenses in the country's throat whenever we want? Despite the fact that Dak threw all over both of them -- which shows a clear indication of how many men they were dedicating to our run game. I dunno if you've checked the recruiting class -- but we've actually improved the OL recruiting at the same time we improved the rest of it. We've hit on most of our primary targets in 2 of the last 3 classes.

I've been the first to complain about Hevesy at times in the past and he has deserved it at times -- it just seems strange as hell to complain right now after NO ONE shut us down. The year after his OL was statistically ALOT better than Turner's highly rated defensive line. And the year he'd gotten the #1 JUCO OT, another 4* OL(Champion, let us not forget), with a Freshman All-American at a position of need looking to transfer in as a JR with a waiver to play immediately...

First of all, nobody is even close to saying we "should be able to line up and run it down the best defenses throat". We're saying, when we need a few yards in key moments, against good defenses, we can't beat them in the trenches. And that is the truth. It also rears it's head in Redzone situations when we are unable to score from the 5 yard line on 4 plays vs OM and Bama.

And secondly, nobody is saying we haven't done a good job this year with OL recruiting. But it still wasn't a GREAT class. Very good though, and great compared to some of our recent classes.

In every single post I've made about Hev, I have said HE CAN GET IT DONE IF HE RECRUITS BETTER, as well as I ADMIT THIS YEARS CLASS IS A GREAT START AND MUCH IMPROVED.....yet those are two things you and Coach dispute my point with. I'm totally fine with respecting y'all's opinions, until you start putting words in my mouth (coach), or disputing a point that wasn't even being disputed in the first place (Engie). So in other words, you're right about our recruiting being better this year...but that wasn't ever claimed otherwise.

[CadaverDawg]

it just seems that at critical junctures of those 2 games when bamer and fredo were hell bent on stopping our running game, we just couldn't get it done. we've improved recruiting wise in most all other positions with the exception of OL which is hard to deny. and that still begs for an explanation as to why.

Exactly. Too many people take it as an attack on Hevesy, but it's not. I think he is a great developer and a good coach. I simply think he needs to improve our front end OL talent if we truly want to win the West. Even then, we still may lose because the road is tough in the West....but I think our offense has to be able to get the tough yards on the ground when we need them in order to win the West...and without a better all a round OL, we aren't going to do it IMO.

If people would look at it for what it is, they would probably agree....but unfortunately people want to point to worthless stats or points nobody is even refuting, when the only thing you need to look at, is why we lost the games we lost that kept us from winning more games. It was defense, and OL play. Obviously our OL was solid against most teams, but against the best defenses, we couldn't run the ball consistently enough to score enough points. I hate to keep using Ohio State as an example, but if you take away their run, they get blown out by Bama. But Bama couldn't take away that run.

[CadaverDawg]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

Oh, and I have never discredited what we did vs LSU, AU, and A&M. More putting words in my mouth, when you know it isn't true. If you want to disprove me, try your best....but when you have to start by claiming I said something I didn't say, it ruins your credibility from the start. And I thought you were better than that, as DudyDawg stated. Use your own points to try and prove your stance....not falsely created words that you claim I said.

[CadaverDawg]

And another thing Coach mentioned in his ridiculous post above, is that "Alabam, who won the West, wasn't able to run vs us either". Thanks for helping me prove my point. You keep wanting to blame our losses on the defense, yet you just admitted our defense played great, slowing down Bama's run game, in that loss. So why did we lose? Why were we unable to score more than 20 points? Wouldn't you agree that holding Bama to 25 on the road is a game that we need to win since we had the leagues best offense? Well then why weren't we able to?

Sure Bama has a great defense....but Bama will forever be in the West, so we either have to learn to beat a good defense, or else we will continue getting the same results....WHICH IS THE EXACT POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE. In order to BEAT Bama and other great SEC defense, we have to do both...play great defense AND run the ball. You can use your worthless stats above all you want, but it would take a moron that didn't watch the games to think that told the story. We were running the ball with under 8 minutes to play and down multiple,e scores....so of course we were able to run it a little bit, Bama and OM were trying to prevent quick scores. So basically you are using our poor clock management to claim we "ran the ball effectively"? Really? You must think our fans and board members are stupid. When we need a few tough yards in that game (except for maybe one drive at the beginning of the second half), we ran into a brick wall and couldn't get it.

Am i saying our OL sucks? No.
Am I saying Hevesy can't get it done? No.
Am I saying we had a bad year offensively? Hell no.
Am I saying we didn't have a great year? No.

So quit putting words in my mouth. All I said is, and you can quote it if you'd like so you won't get my words confused anymore, is.....

"IN MY OPINION, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WIN THE WEST UNLESS OUR OL TALENT IMPROVES QUITE A BIT. WE DID NOT HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH OL TO WIN THE WEST IN 2014 IMO."

We don't have to run it as good as Ohio State did, but we have to run it much better, and be able to pick up tough yards on the ground in crucial games. Why? Because that is what the Mullen/Meyer scheme is based on. Our passing game will never beat a good team, unless our run game is at least a threat, because play action is so important for us. We aren't built to win with the pass, and neither is a team like OSU.

I don't really see how my point is so debateable really. If you watched the games this year, it seemed clear that our running game took a huge step backwards in games we lost. There's only so many things that can be a result of. We're they good defensive lines we played? Yes. So how do you beat a great DL? You get a better OL. If we want to win the West, we have to get better on the OL.

[msstate7]

Sec rankings this year:

Rushing offense -- 3rd
Total offense -- 1st
Sacks allowed -- 7th
TFL allowed -- 3rd

I say our oline was pretty solid.

[engie]

First of all, nobody is even close to saying we "should be able to line up and run it down the best defenses throat". We're saying, when we need a few yards in key moments, against good defenses, we can't beat them in the trenches. And that is the truth. It also rears it's head in Redzone situations when we are unable to score from the 5 yard line on 4 plays vs OM and Bama.
You dress it up a little differently -- but you are essentially saying the same thing I stated. You are asking what was a very good OL in the vast majority of measureable metrics to beat the best defensive fronts in the country "in key moments of the game" in situations we're virtually guaranteed to be running -- by the time of the year when we'd been scouted and Bama and OM had all their guys in the box and no lead blocker. Most of the failures I saw this year was on the playcalling, the post-Kentucky version of JRob, and Dak being less than 100%. If you saw it being on Hevesy, that's fine. I just disagree is all.

[engie]

And another thing Coach mentioned in his ridiculous post above, is that "Alabam, who won the West, wasn't able to run vs us either". Thanks for helping me prove my point. You keep wanting to blame our losses on the defense, yet you just admitted our defense played great, slowing down Bama's run game, in that loss. So why did we lose? Why were we unable to score more than 20 points? Wouldn't you agree that holding Bama to 25 on the road is a game that we need to win since we had the leagues best offense? Well then why weren't we able to?
You get upset about people "putting words in your mouth" -- and you come back with this? Where did anyone argue that we lost to Bama because of defense? We lost to Alabama because Dak threw 3 redzone INTs.

Defense lost the other 2 games. Not the Bama game.

[CadaverDawg]

Sec rankings this year:

Rushing offense -- 3rd
Total offense -- 1st
Sacks allowed -- 7th
TFL allowed -- 3rd

I say our oline was pretty solid.

Again, nobody said it wasn't. It just wasn't good enough to win the West in my opinion.

[BeastMan]

Again, nobody said it wasn't. It just wasn't good enough to win the West in my opinion.

I disagree here. As a team MSU was "good enough" to win the West. A 10-2 record and a 2nd place SEC West finish reinforces that. State needed to make 2-3 more plays vs Bama and they were SEC champs regardless of the EB outcome (and that game was only 4-5 plays)

[defiantdog]

Again, nobody said it wasn't. It just wasn't good enough to win the West in my opinion.

Agreed..... Jarran Reed ate our OL up during the Bama game. But I think our OL held up well against OM..... Shump could have ran for 200 that game. Dak was sacked 21 times this year..... Blake Sims was sacked 13 times. I know a lot of those were planned qb runs, but it shows teams got a lot of pressure on Dak.

ETA: we'll never know if our OL was good enough to win the west because we didn't win the damn west.

[CadaverDawg]

You dress it up a little differently -- but you are essentially saying the same thing I stated. You are asking what was a very good OL in the vast majority of measureable metrics to beat the best defensive fronts in the country "in key moments of the game" in situations we're virtually guaranteed to be running -- by the time of the year when we'd been scouted and Bama and OM had all their guys in the box and no lead blocker. Most of the failures I saw this year was on the playcalling, the post-Kentucky version of JRob, and Dak being less than 100%. If you saw it being on Hevesy, that's fine. I just disagree is all.

I'm not saying it was "all on Hevesy". I agree that play calling played a part. But if we are going to continue running Dak up the middle on 3rd and 4 against Bama and OM type defenses, we have got to be much better on our OL.

And to be honest, a great deal of my OL concerns may be resolved with better play calling. But, and you may or may not agree, I highly doubt we are going to see Mullen's play calling change dramatically, so the only way I see it getting much better, is by us getting more push against good DL's from our OL. I know hat is much easier said than done, but you would think a team with an offense so built around the run game, we could attract at least 1 or 2 Top 100-200 OL recruits. Not saying it's all about "stars", but I would venture to say a 4 star OL has more upside than a walkon private school OL with no offers. That being said, Hevesy deserves tons of credit for his development of those guys. I simply want him to have more front end talent to work with, so that we aren't having to rely on a converted TE or DL guy to play a role in the depth of our OL.

It makes me wooly to think about a guy like Tunsil blocking for Dak and JRob, for instance. I know Tunsil is a poor example because he is the best in that class....but there are a lot of good OL prospects regionally that we miss out on yearly. In fact, we rarely get the best OL in our state (yes there are exceptions). I just wish we could see what Hev could do with better front end talent. If he can make a good SEC line out of a bunch of 2-3 stars and walk ons, we may actually be able to line up and run the ball like OSU did on Bama if we could start landing a few studs every couple of years. Ya know?

[bluelightstar]

I'm pretty sure I remember our offensive line getting basically tossed around in much of the first half of the Alabama game?

[Bully13]

at least it does appear that our OL crootin' is going to pick it up a notch in '15. and there is no arguing that the way our D played in the EB against a team that was shut vs ARK and nearly shut vs TCU played a bigger role in our late season demise than our OL did.

there's nothing wrong with us wanting to see hevesy improve on the OL crootin' trail though. we could have used more push at times and that's not debatable.

both sides of this argument are valid is the way I see it.

[Dawg61]

Cadaver is correct. We need to land more NFL talent at the OL position to win the West. How many OL do we have in the NFL right now? We have significantly upgraded at the QB and WR position. Can you say we've significantly upgraded at the OL position too?

[DownwardDawg]

I'm pretty sure I remember our offensive line getting basically tossed around in much of the first half of the Alabama game?

Every Bama fan I know talks about how bad they treated our O-line in the 1st quarter. They were plum giddy about how physically dominating their D-line was at the beginning of that game.

[CadaverDawg]

I'm pretty sure I remember our offensive line getting basically tossed around in much of the first half of the Alabama game?

Shhh....that doesn't match the stats we put up on the ground when Bama got up by 14+ late in the game.

[CadaverDawg]

at least it does appear that our OL crootin' is going to pick it up a notch in '15. and there is no arguing that the way our D played in the EB against a team that was shut vs ARK and nearly shut vs TCU played a bigger role in our late season demise than our OL did.

there's nothing wrong with us wanting to see hevesy improve on the OL crootin' trail though. we could have used more push at times and that's not debatable.

both sides of this argument are valid is the way I see it.

I totally agree with everything you just said.

[FlabLoser]

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

Piss poor defensive plan and tackling in that game. I've never seen an MSU give up that many big plays. Ever.

[CadaverDawg]

Cadaver is correct. We need to land more NFL talent at the OL position to win the West. How many OL do we have in the NFL right now? We have significantly upgraded at the QB and WR position. Can you say we've significantly upgraded at the OL position too?

Great points

[Coach34]

I'm just going off what you said:

"We will never win the West with the caliber OL talent that wants to play for Hevesy IMO. "

And I just showed you that we had one this season good enough to win the West. We simply turned the ball over on the road and then our D had a total collapse in the EB

[DudyDawg]

You can't honestly say that had Dak not turned it over three times against bama and gotten three fgs we would've won when we scored literally at the very end. That's ludcrious. We never looked like we would win that game

[K9 Avenger]

Shhh....that doesn't match the stats we put up on the ground when Bama got up by 14+ late in the game.

Rushing yds by Quarter in the Bama game...1st 13....2nd 41...3rd 66...4th 18.........so we rushed for 107 yds in the middle 2 quarters with the game very much in doubt. Only ran for 18 in the 4th when we were having to play catch up.

[Coach34]

Cadaver is correct. We need to land more NFL talent at the OL position to win the West. How many OL do we have in the NFL right now? We have significantly upgraded at the QB and WR position. Can you say we've significantly upgraded at the OL position too?

What about TCU's OL talent? Why didnt they need NFL-caliber OL guys to score 42 on Fredo? Why were they successful with lesser talent?

[Coach34]

Rushing yds by Quarter in the Bama game...1st 13....2nd 41...3rd 66...4th 18.........so we rushed for 107 yds in the middle 2 quarters with the game very much in doubt. Only ran for 18 in the 4th when we were having to play catch up.

Ouch- point rubbed in even more....nice work

[AFDog23]

Does anybody have stats for our conversion percent when we were 3rd down 1 to go? I am just curious what our percentage of 1st downs were (especially on run plays). It just seemed like every time it was 3rd and 1 we were unable to pick up the 1st down with our run.

[CadaverDawg]

I'm just going off what you said:

"We will never win the West with the caliber OL talent that wants to play for Hevesy IMO. "

And I just showed you that we had one this season good enough to win the West. We simply turned the ball over on the road and then our D had a total collapse in the EB




You didn't "show me" anything. Our OL got pushed around against OM and Bama, and contributed to us NOT winning the West. So you proved nothing above.

[CadaverDawg]

Does anybody have stats for our conversion percent when we were 3rd down 1 to go? I am just curious what our percentage of 1st downs were (especially on run plays). It just seemed like every time it was 3rd and 1 we were unable to pick up the 1st down with our run.

Early in the year, it was good. But against Bama and OM, 3rd and short was garbage for us.

[Coach34]

You can't honestly say that had Dak not turned it over three times against bama and gotten three fgs we would've won when we scored literally at the very end. That's ludcrious. We never looked like we would win that game

Seriously? It was 19-13 in the 4th Quarter....how in the hell is a 6 point game in the 4th Quarter not in the game? Please explain that. Had we had 2 of those FG's before that- it would have been a tie game. This really isnt hard to understand. A Bama punt and a State TD has us in the lead. The lead. You're just being stupid now

The problem was when we made it a 6 point game- Bama took it 15 plays and 76 yards for a TD. They picked up 3 different 3rd and longs on that drive to put us away. This really isnt hard to understand.

[CadaverDawg]

Ouch- point rubbed in even more....nice work

Not really. But I can tell your ego is bruised, and you are resulting to throwing out useless info and claiming it as "proof". Ha. It's funny to watch. You tried to play our fan base as a fool with this thread, you got called out, and now you're trying to cling to anything you can. Just stop.

It's ok to want our OL recruiting to improve. Doesn't mean anybody hates your boy, Hev.

[CadaverDawg]

Seriously? It was 19-13 in the 4th Quarter....how in the hell is a 6 point game in the 4th Quarter not in the game? Please explain that. Had we had 2 of those FG's before that- it would have been a tie game. This really isnt hard to understand. A Bama punt and a State TD has us in the lead. The lead. You're just being stupid now

The problem was when we made it a 6 point game- Bama took it 15 plays and 76 yards for a TD. They picked up 3 different 3rd and longs on that drive to put us away. This really isnt hard to understand.

Because when Bama needed a stop they got one...All. Game. Long. Plus, we knew we would have to pass it down the field in order to win....Why? BECAUSE WHEN WE NEEDED TO RUN THE BALL WE COULDNT.

[CadaverDawg]

What about TCU's OL talent? Why didnt they need NFL-caliber OL guys to score 42 on Fredo? Why were they successful with lesser talent?

Lesser talent? Debateable on the OL.

But to answer your question, because TCU doesn't have an offense built around their ability to run the football. This has already been explained, and you know the answer, but it doesn't fit your defense strategy.

[Coach34]

Because when Bama needed a stop they got one...All. Game. Long. Plus, we knew we would have to pass it down the field in order to win....Why? BECAUSE WHEN WE NEEDED TO RUN THE BALL WE COULDNT.

We ran for over 100 yards vs Bama in the 2nd and 3rd Q alone- and we only ran it a couple of times in the 4th. So- aGAIN- you are wrong

[CadaverDawg]

We ran for over 100 yards vs Bama in the 2nd and 3rd Q alone- and we only ran it a couple of times in the 4th. So- aGAIN- you are wrong

And Jeremiah Briscoe, UAB's QB, passed for more yards than Dak, so he is clearly a better QB. Right?

You're ridiculous. I know you like to stir the pot, but you can do better than this thread.

[CadaverDawg]

We ran for over 100 yards vs Bama in the 2nd and 3rd Q alone- and we only ran it a couple of times in the 4th. So- aGAIN- you are wrong

Well then why didn't we win? You have admitted that we played good D, and you're claiming we ran the ball like we wanted too. So why did we lose? INT's? Why were we passing the ball if we were running it so authoritatively like you are saying?

Your spin is starting to come full circle.

[Coach34]

Because when Bama needed a stop they got one...All. Game. Long. Plus, we knew we would have to pass it down the field in order to win....Why? BECAUSE WHEN WE NEEDED TO RUN THE BALL WE COULDNT.

Last possession of the 2nd? Dakota overthrows a wide open Wilson- settle for FG

1st drive of 3rd Q? Drove from our 19 to Bama 14- settle for FG because of incompletes on 1st and 3rd down- ran for 5 yards on 2nd down

2nd drive of 3rd Q? 2 incompletes and penalty-forced punt

3rd drive of 3rd? Dakota throws pick in end zone...a FG at worst would have been HUGE here

4th drive of 3rd? Drive down again- score a TD on the 2nd play of 4th Q to make it a 19-13 game.

5th drive of 2nd half? Prescott interception inside Bama 20- drive had 9 passes and only 1 run

[CadaverDawg]

Last possession of the 2nd? Dakota overthrows a wide open Wilson- settle for FG

1st drive of 3rd Q? Drove from our 19 to Bama 14- settle for FG because of incompletes on 1st and 3rd down- ran for 5 yards on 2nd down

2nd drive of 3rd Q? 2 incompletes and penalty-forced punt

3rd drive of 3rd? Dakota throws pick in end zone...a FG at worst would have been HUGE here

4th drive of 3rd? Drive down again- score a TD on the 2nd play of 4th Q to make it a 19-13 game.

5th drive of 2nd half? Prescott interception inside Bama 20- drive had 9 passes and only 1 run

Haha, proving my point AGAIN....thank you. This is too easy.

Why were our drives stalling? Why were we being forced to pass deep in the Redzone? Ooooooooohh Thaaaat's right....BECAUSE WE COULDN'T GRIND OUT THE TOUGH YARDS WHEN WE NEEDED TO THE MOST. Which has been my point all along. Thank you.

I think we're done here.

[Sacrifice]

I thought our O-line played great last season, I don't think any team can just line up and run it down every teams throat on there schedule...The Bama loss, 3 TOs and a safety just killed us...
I am a little concerned when teams take away Daks running ability, can Mullen make quicker adjustments??
Dak had 22 carries for 82 yards against Bama and I bet most of those carries were in 2 1/2 quarters...It took way too long to make an adjustment to what Bama was doing to us. Same thing with OM, Dak 24 carries 40 yards but the D never got off the bus in that game..
The O-line will be fine next season but will Mullen make quicker adjustments when running Dak up the middle doesn't work??

[Dawg61]

What about TCU's OL talent? Why didnt they need NFL-caliber OL guys to score 42 on Fredo? Why were they successful with lesser talent?

Hevesy has done a great job developing players. I want to see how he'll do developing 4&5* players though. Did we have a single NFL type OL this year? Bama has probably 6-8 right now. I'm not asking for 6-8 I just want 3-4 NFL offensive lineman. We have that many if not more playing DL. Why can't we duplicate that on the OL? No reason other than we're too comfortable going the diamond in the rough route. OL recruiting needs to catch up to the rest of our positional recruiting. Why are you arguing against that?

[DudyDawg]

Seriously? It was 19-13 in the 4th Quarter....how in the hell is a 6 point game in the 4th Quarter not in the game? Please explain that. Had we had 2 of those FG's before that- it would have been a tie game. This really isnt hard to understand. A Bama punt and a State TD has us in the lead. The lead. You're just being stupid now

The problem was when we made it a 6 point game- Bama took it 15 plays and 76 yards for a TD. They picked up 3 different 3rd and longs on that drive to put us away. This really isnt hard to understand.

By that logic we should've lost at lsu bc they lost by 5!!!! And they couldn't get six on 4th and goal!!!


Please, tell me at what point you thought we would beat bama. We were never in contention to win. Like cadaver said, we couldn't make a play when we needed. They did. Every. Damn. Time. You're right, it isn't hard to understand. The bama game ended when JROB got tackled in our own endzone. If you want to discredit LSU's late scores, then you have to do the same for ours. We were not in the game. You can't have it both ways. You think we had a legit shot to beat kentucky last year at Rupp bc it was a three point game at half? The answer is no.

[defiantdog]

At least we don't have these guys..... http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/22a5767e2ab2eae6b8408640bbf3648d43eb4a98/c=0-47-1800-1400&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/JacksonMS/JacksonMS/2014/08/03/1407073349000-Oline.jpg

[CadaverDawg]

At least we don't have these guys..... http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/22a5767e2ab2eae6b8408640bbf3648d43eb4a98/c=0-47-1800-1400&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/JacksonMS/JacksonMS/2014/08/03/1407073349000-Oline.jpg

Truth

[Sacrifice]

At least we don't have these guys..... http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/22a5767e2ab2eae6b8408640bbf3648d43eb4a98/c=0-47-1800-1400&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/JacksonMS/JacksonMS/2014/08/03/1407073349000-Oline.jpg
Damn that looks rough...Looks like the practice squad from Montana St U.

[Todd4State]

The thing I don't understand is why Hevesey is expected to reel in 4-5 star guys when our entire recruiting philosophy has been to find under the radar guys and develop them? But yet, Hevesey has to get Under Armour and Army AA? That seems like a double standard to me.

And as far as development, I haven't seen anyone on this board talk about the fact that we have three o-linemen in college all-star games this year- actually, Day is competing in two All-Star games including the Senior Bowl. And the only reason the other two aren't in All-Star games is because they still have eligibility and they will be in them once they graduate.

Our total offense totals and sacks allowed totals both suggest that we had a good o-line as well.

The reason we couldn't "get the tough yards when we needed to" is because of Dan. Every time we were in a key situation, he would run Dak. And everyone in the ballpark knew it. Didn't matter if it was 4th and 1 or 4th and 15. We were running Dak up the middle or off tackle. So, basically what usually happened is our o-line would have to try to block 9 guys in the box all keyed in on the same guy. If our o-line consisted of Anthony Munoz, Bruce Matthews, Kent Hull, Larry Allen, and Jonathan Ogden- they would have had a hard time blocking five on nine. Dak has to either check out or Dan has to call something different in those situations. Hell, he did the same thing with Tebow when they lost to Ole Miss in 2008 and Ole Miss stopped them. And then Dan looks around and wonders why in the hell it didn't work.

[Dawg61]

Nobody expects Hevesy to only land 4&5* players. It'd just be nice if he could land ONE a year. That's not asking much.

[CadaverDawg]

The thing I don't understand is why Hevesey is expected to reel in 4-5 star guys when our entire recruiting philosophy has been to find under the radar guys and develop them? But yet, Hevesey has to get Under Armour and Army AA? That seems like a double standard to me.

And as far as development, I haven't seen anyone on this board talk about the fact that we have three o-linemen in college all-star games this year- actually, Day is competing in two All-Star games including the Senior Bowl. And the only reason the other two aren't in All-Star games is because they still have eligibility and they will be in them once they graduate.

Our total offense totals and sacks allowed totals both suggest that we had a good o-line as well.

The reason we couldn't "get the tough yards when we needed to" is because of Dan. Every time we were in a key situation, he would run Dak. And everyone in the ballpark knew it. Didn't matter if it was 4th and 1 or 4th and 15. We were running Dak up the middle or off tackle. So, basically what usually happened is our o-line would have to try to block 9 guys in the box all keyed in on the same guy. If our o-line consisted of Anthony Munoz, Bruce Matthews, Kent Hull, Larry Allen, and Jonathan Ogden- they would have had a hard time blocking five on nine. Dak has to either check out or Dan has to call something different in those situations. Hell, he did the same thing with Tebow when they lost to Ole Miss in 2008 and Ole Miss stopped them. And then Dan looks around and wonders why in the hell it didn't work.

Most of what you said has been discussed already.

For instance, nobody is saying we didn't have a good OL.

Also, nobody is saying he has to land Army All Americans. But a couple of stud OL guys every few years isn't too much to ask for an sEC team. Hell, OM has the worst OL in the league and have 2 of the best OL recruits in the country committed, and typically get the best OL in the state each year.

And we have all been talking about how good of a developer Hevesy is. He's good at it. Just wish we could see how great our OL would be if he was developing a group with better front end talent. Less raw.

I agree with you about the play calling. But since we all know Mullen isn't likely to change that much, we are going to need a better OL to grind out the tough yards his offensive play calling demands.

[Todd4State]

Nobody expects Hevesy to only land 4&5* players. It'd just be nice if he could land ONE a year. That's not asking much.

He's landed Damien Robinson, Jake Thomas, Tommy Champion this year, Devon Desper was UA All-American even though he was a three star- he's already doing that. The OT from West Point next year will probably be a four star guy as well and we'll more than likely get him. So, I can only assume from the complaints that people want him to recruit better than what we are currently. People keep moving the goal posts on Hevesey. And it's because their arguments don't hold water.

And if you're upset about Jovan Patterson- if Tony Hughes can't get a kid from Hattiesburg, odds are no one could have gotten him to MSU.

[NCDawg]

And another thing Coach mentioned in his ridiculous post above, is that "Alabam, who won the West, wasn't able to run vs us either". Thanks for helping me prove my point. You keep wanting to blame our losses on the defense, yet you just admitted our defense played great, slowing down Bama's run game, in that loss. So why did we lose? Why were we unable to score more than 20 points? Wouldn't you agree that holding Bama to 25 on the road is a game that we need to win since we had the leagues best offense? Well then why weren't we able to?

Sure Bama has a great defense....but Bama will forever be in the West, so we either have to learn to beat a good defense, or else we will continue getting the same results....WHICH IS THE EXACT POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE. In order to BEAT Bama and other great SEC defense, we have to do both...play great defense AND run the ball. You can use your worthless stats above all you want, but it would take a moron that didn't watch the games to think that told the story. We were running the ball with under 8 minutes to play and down multiple,e scores....so of course we were able to run it a little bit, Bama and OM were trying to prevent quick scores. So basically you are using our poor clock management to claim we "ran the ball effectively"? Really? You must think our fans and board members are stupid. When we need a few tough yards in that game (except for maybe one drive at the beginning of the second half), we ran into a brick wall and couldn't get it.

Am i saying our OL sucks? No.
Am I saying Hevesy can't get it done? No.
Am I saying we had a bad year offensively? Hell no.
Am I saying we didn't have a great year? No.

So quit putting words in my mouth. All I said is, and you can quote it if you'd like so you won't get my words confused anymore, is.....

"IN MY OPINION, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WIN THE WEST UNLESS OUR OL TALENT IMPROVES QUITE A BIT. WE DID NOT HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH OL TO WIN THE WEST IN 2014 IMO."

We don't have to run it as good as Ohio State did, but we have to run it much better, and be able to pick up tough yards on the ground in crucial games. Why? Because that is what the Mullen/Meyer scheme is based on. Our passing game will never beat a good team, unless our run game is at least a threat, because play action is so important for us. We aren't built to win with the pass, and neither is a team like OSU.

I don't really see how my point is so debateable really. If you watched the games this year, it seemed clear that our running game took a huge step backwards in games we lost. There's only so many things that can be a result of. We're they good defensive lines we played? Yes. So how do you beat a great DL? You get a better OL. If we want to win the West, we have to get better on the OL.

This is a good post and I agree with everything said. There was no doubt our OL got dominated against Alabama and Ole Miss. We definitely must improve our OL play if we want to win the SEC West. In the Alabama game, when we had a 1st down on their 1 yard line and we tried to run Robinson in for the score, our OL got zero push and was in fact knocked backwards.

[CadaverDawg]

He's landed Damien Robinson, Jake Thomas, Tommy Champion this year, Devon Desper was UA All-American even though he was a three star- he's already doing that. The OT from West Point next year will probably be a four star guy as well and we'll more than likely get him. So, I can only assume from the complaints that people want him to recruit better than what we are currently. People keep moving the goal posts on Hevesey. And it's because their arguments don't hold water.

And if you're upset about Jovan Patterson- if Tony Hughes can't get a kid from Hattiesburg, odds are no one could have gotten him to MSU.

What? People aren't moving the goal posts. You need to go back and read the thread, because people aren't arguing that we don't have a good line. This all started because I said "We will have to recruit better on the OL if we ever plan on winning the West". Nobody is saying Hevesy doesn't develop well, is a bad coach, doesn't have a good line, etc.

And we also aren't factoring in this years "commits" yet, but everyone agrees that these will be improvement.

[Todd4State]

Most of what you said has been discussed already.

For instance, nobody is saying we didn't have a good OL.

Also, nobody is saying he has to land Army All Americans. But a couple of stud OL guys every few years isn't too much to ask for an sEC team. Hell, OM has the worst OL in the league and have 2 of the best OL recruits in the country committed, and typically get the best OL in the state each year.

And we have all been talking about how good of a developer Hevesy is. He's good at it. Just wish we could see how great our OL would be if he was developing a group with better front end talent. Less raw.

I agree with you about the play calling. But since we all know Mullen isn't likely to change that much, we are going to need a better OL to grind out the tough yards his offensive play calling demands.

Well, then your problem is assuming that the recruiting sites actually know who the best o-lineman is going to be. We probably have landed the top two in the state this year when it's all said and done in Storey and Champion. We got the best last year in Elgton Jenkins. The year before that we landed Jamaal Clayborn, before that we got Desper, and then we get to the Justin Malone/Aaron Morris class and that's really the last time you could maybe say that we didn't get the top o-lineman in the state. And that's debatable. Would you really want Rod Taylor and Jovan Patterson over those guys? Honestly, I wouldn't. And I haven't even mentioned Jake Thomas and Kent Flowers who I think are going to be pretty good.

We have 4-5 guys on the o-line this year that are probably going to play pro football. I don't know what else you could ask for?

[Todd4State]

What? People aren't moving the goal posts. You need to go back and read the thread, because people aren't arguing that we don't have a good line. This all started because I said "We will have to recruit better on the OL if we ever plan on winning the West". Nobody is saying Hevesy doesn't develop well, is a bad coach, doesn't have a good line, etc.

And we also aren't factoring in this years "commits" yet, but everyone agrees that these will be improvement.

Then why complain? Actually, this whole discussion started not because of your quote but because some people said that Hevesey can't recruit and can't coach earlier in the year. As far as I can tell, Hevesey is the only coach on staff that anyone is demanding that he get at least one 4-5 star guy. That's still a double standard.

[CadaverDawg]

Well, then your problem is assuming that the recruiting sites actually know who the best o-lineman is going to be. We probably have landed the top two in the state this year when it's all said and done in Storey and Champion. We got the best last year in Elgton Jenkins. The year before that we landed Jamaal Clayborn, before that we got Desper, and then we get to the Justin Malone/Aaron Morris class and that's really the last time you could maybe say that we didn't get the top o-lineman in the state. And that's debatable. Would you really want Rod Taylor and Jovan Patterson over those guys? Honestly, I wouldn't. And I haven't even mentioned Jake Thomas and Kent Flowers who I think are going to be pretty good.

We have 4-5 guys on the o-line this year that are probably going to play pro football. I don't know what else you could ask for?

No, it has nothing to do with the recruiting sites. It has to do with not being able to gain a few yards when we needed it against OM and Bama. It has to do with my original point....that until we improve our OL talent, we won't win the West.

If you are correct about those guys, then the proof will be in the pudding in the coming years. But THIS past year, when we needed a few tough yards in key spots, or we needed to punch it in with 4 tries from inside the 10 yard line...We Couldn't Get It Done. And if we are going to win the West with Mullen's offense, we are going to have to be able to win a few of those battles in the trenches with it all on the line against Bama and other great SEC defenses.

[CadaverDawg]

Then why complain? Actually, this whole discussion started not because of your quote but because some people said that Hevesey can't recruit and can't coach earlier in the year. As far as I can tell, Hevesey is the only coach on staff that anyone is demanding that he get at least one 4-5 star guy. That's still a double standard.

No it didn't. Have you read this thread? I think you are jumping in at the end, and missing the point of this thread and what is being debated.

And as for this OL class....we said "improved". Not "great".

[CadaverDawg]

As far as I can tell, Hevesey is the only coach on staff that anyone is demanding that he get at least one 4-5 star guy.

Because the other one's are already doing it! Ha

[msstate7]

Because the other one's are already doing it! Ha

So our safties' talent was greater than our oline talent this year?

[TUSK]

Hevesy has done a great job developing players. I want to see how he'll do developing 4&5* players though. Did we have a single NFL type OL this year? Bama has probably 6-8 right now. I'm not asking for 6-8 I just want 3-4 NFL offensive lineman. We have that many if not more playing DL. Why can't we duplicate that on the OL? No reason other than we're too comfortable going the diamond in the rough route. OL recruiting needs to catch up to the rest of our positional recruiting. Why are you arguing against that?

solid post, daddio... yall just need a bit more "sunday talent" on OL... a lot of the other pieces are in place.

[CadaverDawg]

So our safties' talent was greater than our oline talent this year?

Hell no. Where did you get that? I have said all along that our defense and our OL are going to have to improve in order to win the West.

[bluelightstar]

So our safties' talent was greater than our oline talent this year?

I think somebody else already pulled the info (it might actually have been engie) that many of our promising safety recruits got "stolen away" to other positions. You're not going to find that happening with offensive linemen.

[engie]

No, it has nothing to do with the recruiting sites. It has to do with not being able to gain a few yards when we needed it against OM and Bama. It has to do with my original point....that until we improve our OL talent, we won't win the West.

If you are correct about those guys, then the proof will be in the pudding in the coming years. But THIS past year, when we needed a few tough yards in key spots, or we needed to punch it in with 4 tries from inside the 10 yard line...We Couldn't Get It Done. And if we are going to win the West with Mullen's offense, we are going to have to be able to win a few of those battles in the trenches with it all on the line against Bama and other great SEC defenses.

If that's the criteria -- our DL failure is just as big and more glaring.

Why aren't people killing Turner?

[msstate7]

Hell no. Where did you get that? I have said all along that our defense and our OL are going to have to improve in order to win the West.

Tony hughes is safety coach. He obviously needs to recruit better right? If Hevesy is responsible for oline, then Hughes is responsible for getting safety talent, no?

[CadaverDawg]

solid post, daddio... yall just need a bit more "sunday talent" on OL... a lot of the other pieces are in place.

Ruh Roh....A non-biased poster agreeing with us? You mean we can't win the West with a bunch of highly developed underrated players with our type of offensive scheme?

I TOTALLY AGREE.

We rely too heavily on our ability to run the football in this system.

[CadaverDawg]

If that's the criteria -- our DL failure is just as big and more glaring.

Why aren't people killing Turner?

I thought we slowed down Bama's run game and played well enough to win defensively?

[SallyStansbury]

You dress it up a little differently -- but you are essentially saying the same thing I stated. You are asking what was a very good OL in the vast majority of measureable metrics to beat the best defensive fronts in the country "in key moments of the game" in situations we're virtually guaranteed to be running -- by the time of the year when we'd been scouted and Bama and OM had all their guys in the box and no lead blocker. Most of the failures I saw this year was on the playcalling, the post-Kentucky version of JRob, and Dak being less than 100%. If you saw it being on Hevesy, that's fine. I just disagree is all.

This is it 100%. I agree with what both of you two are saying. I think Hevesy and Mullen were patting one another on the back thinking our offensive line was something they were not. I would rather have someone else for Mullen to bounce his plays off of....like a Hudspeth or whomever, another offensive play-calling contributor, someone that might remind Mullen to sprinkle in some actual misdirection, or RB screen pass, or pass to TE, or hit a WR in stride over the middle, you know something like that....that we completely got away from later in the year.
If we continue to tighten the sphincter in big games, we damn well better get better O linemen to blow folks off the ball because we will have to block a box full of defenders.

[engie]

I thought we slowed down Bama's run game and played well enough to win defensively?

IF you break it down to a single failure(that you are putting on the OL) to punch it in on the redzone -- why can't I break it down to failures to stop the QB run on a single drive multiple times on 3rd and long in the 4th with the game on the line?

It's just ridiculous to say "we can't win the west until we croot better" -- when we could have won the west THIS year if any of a littany of small things go differently in Tuscaloosa -- the biggest of which is still 3 red zone INTs.

[CadaverDawg]

Tony hughes is safety coach. He obviously needs to recruit better right? If Hevesy is responsible for oline, then Hughes is responsible for getting safety talent, no?

Haha, seriously?

He has proven success at safety. He had injuries to Arrington, and Market. Lost Nickoe to graduation. Lost Cox to assault. His son was recovering from a bad injury that cost him speed.

That being said, yes he does need to get us a safety....so he's getting us the best one in the state, and one of the top ones in the country in Peters. Has Bryant waiting as a RS Fr.

I would say Hughes has proven what he can do at S. Bad year this year though for sure.

[msstate7]

Beckwith was all sec 1st team.

Day and clausell likely to get drafted or signed at least to nfl teams.

That's pretty dang good if you ask me

[CadaverDawg]

IF you break it down to a single failure(that you are putting on the OL) to punch it in on the redzone -- why can't I break it down to failures to stop the QB run on a single drive multiple times on 3rd and long in the 4th with the game on the line?

It's just ridiculous to say "we can't win the west until we croot better" -- when we damn sure could have won the west THIS year if any of a littany of small things go differently in Tuscaloosa -- the biggest of which is still 3 red zone INTs.

What? I have been saying this whole thread that until we get better on the OL AND ON DEFENSE, we can't win the West. You can say whatever you want, but it doesn't change the truth.

And yea, those 3 Redzone INT's were big. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF WE COULD HAVE USED OUR BAD ASS OL TO PUNCH IT IN IN THOSE REDZONE APPEARANCES, wouldn't it? Why are we throwing it so much in the Redzone? Because we couldn't run it in, right? If we could, then why didn't we? Y'all are making my point for me by bringing up the INT's. In our offense, if we are going to win the West, we are going to need to score when inside the Redzone. In order to do that, we either have to be able to run it in, or use play action, which is only effective if you are capable of running it in. That's our offensive scheme, I don't make the rules.

[CadaverDawg]

Beckwith was all sec 1st team.

Day and clausell likely to get drafted or signed at least to nfl teams.

That's pretty dang good if you ask me

Yep, and again, nobody said they weren't good. They were good enough to help us win 10 games. This whole debate isn't about our OL being good....it's about them being good enough to help us turn 10 wins into 11 or 12 and a SEC West title. And they weren't good enough for that IMO. But with some better OL recruiting, I think they can be in the future.

And our defense wasn't good enough either.

I think we were good enough at everything else to win the West. But we needed better safety play, a better defensive scheme, and better push from our OL, in our losses.

[msstate7]

Yep, and again, nobody said they weren't good. They were good enough to help us win 10 games. This whole debate isn't about our OL being good....it's about them being good enough to help us turn 10 wins into 11 or 12 and a SEC West title. And they weren't good enough for that IMO. But with some better OL recruiting, I think they can be in the future.

So we've got to get better than an all sec guard, nfl center, and nfl tackle. Nothing to it...

[CadaverDawg]

So we've got to get better than an all sec guard, nfl center, and nfl tackle. Nothing to it...

Let's not get carried away, we don't have any "NFL" players yet on this year's line. Get back to me if we do.

And again, our line is good. Good enough to dominate several teams on our schedule this past year. We're talking "win the West" good.

[defiantdog]

Yep, and again, nobody said they weren't good. They were good enough to help us win 10 games. This whole debate isn't about our OL being good....it's about them being good enough to help us turn 10 wins into 11 or 12 and a SEC West title. And they weren't good enough for that IMO. But with some better OL recruiting, I think they can be in the future.

And our defense wasn't good enough either.

I think we were good enough at everything else to win the West. But we needed better safety play, a better defensive scheme, and better push from our OL, in our losses.

I agree we could have had a better OL..... that's not an argument. But Robinson ran for 1200 yards and Dak was 14 yards away from rushing for 1,000. We nearly had 2 players rush for 1,000 yards in a season. Not too many teams do that. I agree that Bama and Arkansas both gave our OL fits, but they held their own for the most part. Were they good enough to win the west? Who knows

[msstate7]

Let's not get carried away, we don't have any "NFL" players yet on this year's line. Get back to me if we do.

Clausell ranked 24th best draftable tackle... http://www.nfltomorrow.com/#!ot/celj

Day ranked 10th best center...

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=106728&draftyear=2015&genpos=C

[engie]

And yea, those 3 Redzone INT's were big. WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF WE COULD HAVE USED OUR BAD ASS OL TO PUNCH IT IN IN THOSE REDZONE APPEARANCES, wouldn't it? Why are we throwing it so much in the Redzone? Because we couldn't run it in, right? If we could, then why didn't we? Y'all are making my point for me by bringing up the INT's. In our offense, if we are going to win the West, we are going to need to score when inside the Redzone. In order to do that, we either have to be able to run it in, or use play action, which is only effective if you are capable of running it in. That's our offensive scheme, I don't make the rules.

Would have been nice if our elite RB didn't decide he was going pro and then mail it in after his big play at Kentucky...To the point that his backup that he was CLEARLY inferior to him earlier in the season ended up taking most of his touches and looking better. INTs are basically never on the OL.

We threw the ball very successfully on Alabama when not throwing INTs. Why would we not continue doing that? Where is it written that our offense has to live and die by the run? Because that's how Chris Relf did it?

[TUSK]

So we've got to get better than an all sec guard, nfl center, and nfl tackle. Nothing to it...

you know msu better than me, buddy, but I thought BMac was the only certain NFL draftee for '15... but I don't follow pro football like I do college....

I just saw your post... they all likely FAs then, right?

[msstate7]

you know msu better than me, buddy, but I thought BMac was the only certain NFL draftee for '15... but I don't follow pro football like I do college....

I just saw your post... they all likely FAs then, right?

I think day gets drafted and clausell gets signed. Either way, that's not bad and certainly not a sign of no sec talent

[TUSK]

Clausell ranked 24th best draftable tackle... http://www.nfltomorrow.com/#!ot/celj

Day ranked 10th best center...

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=106728&draftyear=2015&genpos=C

damn, they have Shepard (Bammer RT) at #10? I didn't think he was that good....

[CadaverDawg]

I'm tired of this debate. I've made my point, and it is a good one, ha.

Y'all have fun, I'm bout to watch NFL. Enjoyed the debate.

[TUSK]

I think day gets drafted and clausell gets signed. Either way, that's not bad and certainly not a sign of no sec talent

Agreed 100%... I thought they (OL as a whole) were "solid" to "good", at times...

however, "SEC Talent" ain't good enough these days (to win the west/NC)....

[defiantdog]

you know msu better than me, buddy, but I thought BMac was the only certain NFL draftee for '15... but I don't follow pro football like I do college....

I just saw your post... they all likely FAs then, right?

Basically..... BMac and Preston Smith will be our 1st and 2nd rounders in this class. Everyone else will either be FA pick ups or late rounders. I'm not sure where Josh Robinson is projected. Day could actually turn into a good NFL center though.

[TUSK]

I'm tired of this debate. I've made my point, and it is a good one, ha.

Y'all have fun, I'm bout to watch NFL. Enjoyed the debate.

ahh, you tevo'd you some Bammer games for the off-season?

[msstate7]

Agreed 100%... I thought they (OL as a whole) were "solid" to "good", at times...

however, "SEC Talent" ain't good enough these days (to win the west/NC)....

Yeah, gotta have big 10 talent* haha

[CadaverDawg]

Agreed 100%... I thought they (OL as a whole) were "solid" to "good", at times...

however, "SEC Talent" ain't good enough these days (to win the west/NC)....

Ding ding ding

[engie]

Football Outsiders measures OL performance across the board. They say we had the 19th best overall OL in the country this year(Taking the average rankings of all the different ways they measure OL.

Alabama 17
Georgia Tech 19.22222222
Georgia Southern 22.22222222
Auburn 24.22222222
Toledo 25.77777778
Oklahoma 26.22222222
Duke 26.77777778
Texas Tech 26.88888889
Wisconsin 28.44444444
Michigan State 29.22222222
Oregon 29.44444444
Texas A&M 30
Marshall 32
Baylor 34.33333333
Appalachian State 34.66666667
Ohio State 34.77777778
Georgia 37
San Diego State 37
Mississippi State 37.33333333

Meanwhile, we had the 64th best defensive line by the same measuring tools.

So, which was the problem? Our DL play gets a pass because of STARZ while our OL is unfairly penalized for the same reason.

[CadaverDawg]

Yeah, gotta have big 10 talent* haha

Haha well played

[TUSK]

Yeah, gotta have big 10 talent* haha

quick/clever:D

hell, those cats got skrate up "sec/nfl talent"...

and they get everyone back... I see a "revenge game" in the future...

[Todd4State]

No, it has nothing to do with the recruiting sites. It has to do with not being able to gain a few yards when we needed it against OM and Bama. It has to do with my original point....that until we improve our OL talent, we won't win the West.

If you are correct about those guys, then the proof will be in the pudding in the coming years. But THIS past year, when we needed a few tough yards in key spots, or we needed to punch it in with 4 tries from inside the 10 yard line...We Couldn't Get It Done. And if we are going to win the West with Mullen's offense, we are going to have to be able to win a few of those battles in the trenches with it all on the line against Bama and other great SEC defenses.

And again, that has to do with Dan and the play calling. You can not ask any o-line to block nine guys. It's not reasonable. You're basically asking them to block two guys apiece.

[Todd4State]

No it didn't. Have you read this thread? I think you are jumping in at the end, and missing the point of this thread and what is being debated.

And as for this OL class....we said "improved". Not "great".

I thought you said recruiting wasn't what the gripe was about?

[Todd4State]

I think day gets drafted and clausell gets signed. Either way, that's not bad and certainly not a sign of no sec talent

Clausell at worst signs as a free agent. I bet someone takes him in the draft on measureables alone. I can think or worse ways to spend a seventh round pick than on a SEC LT that has four years of starting experience and is 6'7" 310.

[I seen it dawg]

quick/clever:D

hell, those cats got skrate up "sec/nfl talent"...

and they get everyone back... I see a "revenge game" in the future...

So you see them and Oregon in the playoff next year?

[War Machine Dawg]

And another thing Coach mentioned in his ridiculous post above, is that "Alabam, who won the West, wasn't able to run vs us either". Thanks for helping me prove my point. You keep wanting to blame our losses on the defense, yet you just admitted our defense played great, slowing down Bama's run game, in that loss. So why did we lose? Why were we unable to score more than 20 points? Wouldn't you agree that holding Bama to 25 on the road is a game that we need to win since we had the leagues best offense? Well then why weren't we able to?

Sure Bama has a great defense....but Bama will forever be in the West, so we either have to learn to beat a good defense, or else we will continue getting the same results....WHICH IS THE EXACT POINT IM TRYING TO MAKE. In order to BEAT Bama and other great SEC defense, we have to do both...play great defense AND run the ball. You can use your worthless stats above all you want, but it would take a moron that didn't watch the games to think that told the story. We were running the ball with under 8 minutes to play and down multiple,e scores....so of course we were able to run it a little bit, Bama and OM were trying to prevent quick scores. So basically you are using our poor clock management to claim we "ran the ball effectively"? Really? You must think our fans and board members are stupid. When we need a few tough yards in that game (except for maybe one drive at the beginning of the second half), we ran into a brick wall and couldn't get it.

Am i saying our OL sucks? No.
Am I saying Hevesy can't get it done? No.
Am I saying we had a bad year offensively? Hell no.
Am I saying we didn't have a great year? No.

So quit putting words in my mouth. All I said is, and you can quote it if you'd like so you won't get my words confused anymore, is.....

"IN MY OPINION, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WIN THE WEST UNLESS OUR OL TALENT IMPROVES QUITE A BIT. WE DID NOT HAVE A GOOD ENOUGH OL TO WIN THE WEST IN 2014 IMO."

We don't have to run it as good as Ohio State did, but we have to run it much better, and be able to pick up tough yards on the ground in crucial games. Why? Because that is what the Mullen/Meyer scheme is based on. Our passing game will never beat a good team, unless our run game is at least a threat, because play action is so important for us. We aren't built to win with the pass, and neither is a team like OSU.

I don't really see how my point is so debateable really. If you watched the games this year, it seemed clear that our running game took a huge step backwards in games we lost. There's only so many things that can be a result of. We're they good defensive lines we played? Yes. So how do you beat a great DL? You get a better OL. If we want to win the West, we have to get better on the OL.

Perhaps you missed the part about Dak throwing 3 INTs deep in Bama territory, and one of those in the endzone. Those 3 cost us probably a minimum of 9 points and maybe more. We lost by 5. Add 9 to that 5, we win by 4. It's not hard to comprehend, unless you're trying not to comprehend it.

[CadaverDawg]

Perhaps you missed the part about Dak throwing 3 INTs deep in Bama territory, and one of those in the endzone. Those 3 cost us probably a minimum of 9 points and maybe more. We lost by 5. Add 9 to that 5, we win by 4. It's not hard to comprehend, unless you're trying not to comprehend it.

Nope, I addressed it no less than 15 times in this very thread. Feel free to go back and read it, bc I'm tired of repeating the same answers.

[War Machine Dawg]

Hevesy has done a great job developing players. I want to see how he'll do developing 4&5* players though. Did we have a single NFL type OL this year? Bama has probably 6-8 right now. I'm not asking for 6-8 I just want 3-4 NFL offensive lineman. We have that many if not more playing DL. Why can't we duplicate that on the OL? No reason other than we're too comfortable going the diamond in the rough route. OL recruiting needs to catch up to the rest of our positional recruiting. Why are you arguing against that?

I think all 5 of our OL starters play in the NFL or at least get a shot. Day is a badass center who will get a chance. Beckwith is a mean SOB who can play all 3 interior positions - NFL teams love that. He'll get a shot just because he can play center. Malone is an NFL lock. Senior is trending in the right direction. Clausell has all the measurable at 6'7, 310 combined with being a 4 year starter in the SEC. Some NFL team will take a flyer on him at worst, although I wouldn't be shocked to see him go in the 5th-7th round area. Just depends on his combine. Even though he barely played this year because of Mullen's ridiculous attempt to redshirt him, Clayborn appears to be a Gabe Jackson clone. He's going to get a shot. So that's 6 NFL OL off the top of my head.

[Coach34]

Nope, I addressed it no less than 15 times in this very thread. Feel free to go back and read it, bc I'm tired of repeating the same answers.

We threw an incomplete pass on 1st and 3rd down- but ran for 5 yards on 2nd down- that led us to a FG in the red zone

Play selection is aHUGE factor in the success of your OL and your red zone offense. To simply say the OL couldn't get it done is ridiculous- especially when we had over 100 yards rushing in the 2nd and 3rd alone

[MidTNDawg]

I really enjoy this board and learn a lot here. But may I say that some of the dumbest arguments I ever read occur on this board. Why the dumbest? Both sides have good points which neither of the other sides ever acknowledge.

[Treemydawg]

I swear y'all will argue with a damn brick wall just to hear yourselves talk . Everyone has great points on just about everything but y'all can't see the forest because of the trees or ( the I have to prove I'm right about this). This thread has been good reading guys but I can see the points that both sides are arguing. I think all points are legit, y'all just can't find a middle ground to agree upon.

[TUSK]

So you see them and Oregon in the playoff next year?

Ohio State should definitely be in the CFP next year... If Oregon can get Braxton Miller, they'll have a shot...

It'll be interesting to see if TCU can make it in, as well....

Lastly, the IB winner will have a great chance, too....

[Dawg61]

Ohio State should definitely be in the CFP next year... If Oregon can get Braxton Miller, they'll have a shot...

It'll be interesting to see if TCU can make it in, as well....

Lastly, the IB winner will have a great chance, too....

I'll say

TCU vs UCLA
Ohio State vs Baylor

Committee makes it up to the Big 12 and the SEC goes two years in a row w/o a championship.

[msstate7]

I'll say

TCU vs UCLA
Ohio State vs Baylor

Committee makes it up to the Big 12 and the SEC goes two years in a row w/o a championship.

It would be 3 years in a row

[Political Hack]

I felt like we weren't very good on 3rd and short late in the season. That's on the OL and Dak getting us in the right checks... assuming CDM let's him check (I don't think he does).

[msstate7]

I felt like we weren't very good on 3rd and short late in the season. That's on the OL and Dak getting us in the right checks... assuming CDM let's him check (I don't think he does).

I think that's more being too predictable than on the oline

[Coach34]

Ohio State should definitely be in the CFP next year... If Oregon can get Braxton Miller, they'll have a shot...

It'll be interesting to see if TCU can make it in, as well....

Lastly, the IB winner will have a great chance, too....

I think the SEC West winner in 2015 will have 2 losses

[TUSK]

I think the SEC West winner in 2015 will have 2 losses

That's been a recurring prediction the last few years. If someone other than the IB winner wins the West, I think it'll finally happen...

[K9 Avenger]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

bump

[CadaverDawg]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

http://www.thebaseballjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/092613_rivera_curtain_call_34k3hok2.gif

[Coach34]

bump

So you bumped that to show we barely averaged over 3 ypc vs Bammer and Ole Missus????

I defended that shit as long as I could- but at some point you have to give up and accept what the data is giving you

[DanDority]

Nicely done, coach would you please quit referring to Ole Miss as Fredo? Right now, it looks like we are Fredo and they are actually Michael, or Vito.

[sleepy dawg]

Cadaver say we cant ever win the West with Hevesy as our OL coach because we wont have enough talent on the OL. He discounts what we did vs LSU, Auburn, and A&M and uses our games vs Bama and Fredo as his crutch.

So let's look at some facts:

vs Bammer- rushing was basically a wash:

State- 40 carries, 138 yards (20 carries, 85 yards in 2nd half)
Bammer- 32 carries, 124 (please note that Bama- who won the West, had trouble running vs us)

We outpassed them by 70 yards

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win

Vs Fredo Bama and us:

State- 47 carries- 163 yards (that's also counting 3 sacks on Dakota for -21 yards...so basically 44/184 yards)
Bama- 44 carries-168 yards

So Bama- with all their star talent upfront on the OL and at TB- had nearly identical rushing stats vs Fredo. And FYI- they won the West. Also- both us and Bama scored 17 vs Fredo- yet Bama was able to win the West

QB interceptions killed us vs Bama- as well as Bama's QB picking up 3 consecutive 3rd and longs in the 4th Q when we had cut the lead to 19-13. Our D forces a punt- we win that football game

Vs Fredo? Our D gave up 532 yards. Enough said

I'm kind of confused... Are you saying our OL was great, and that the reason we aren't in the playoffs is because we have a bad QB and Defense?

[CadaverDawg]

I'm kind of confused... Are you saying our OL was great, and that the reason we aren't in the playoffs is because we have a bad QB and Defense?

This was a thread from right after last season. So yes, that's what he was saying...but about last year's team. K9 politely bumped it to remind us of how sudden people can change their tone I guess. Well timed bump

[TUSK]

I have a buncha threads I could pull up that proved lots of cats wrong... especially when it comes to SECWC, SECCG, NC, Iron Bowl, best players in the SEC, etc... Hell, I've missed on some, as well....

this is just for fun, isn't it????

BUMPFEST ON!!!!!

[CadaverDawg]

I have a buncha threads I could pull up that proved lots of cats wrong... especially when it comes to SECWC, SECCG, NC, Iron Bowl, best players in the SEC, etc... Hell, I've missed on some, as well....

this is just for fun, isn't it????

BUMPFEST ON!!!!!

Sure, but no guarantees that "BANFEST" won't follow it.**

[TUSK]

Sure, but no guarantees that "BANFEST" won't follow it.**

that's fair, Cadaver... TUSKtime is soon over, anyway....

here's a pre ED thread....

http://forums.sixpackspeak.com/showthread.php?48112-what-s-your-O-U-on-Miles-W-s-in-10-to-keep-his-gig&highlight=coach34+miles

[nicks_hammer]

My question is this related directly to development of ol players, or lack of development, or lack of talent to develop? Either way it is a coaching deficiency. They are the ones responsible for identifying and developing our players.

[Coach34]

Sooooo....because I supported Miles before he lost 5 in a row to Saban or Hevesy before we continue to get more evidence of his shitty recruiting- I have to support them forever????

That like saying you have to support Stands forever because you once did or Jackie Wayne even though he started losing badly- things change,

[I seen it dawg]

I have a buncha threads I could pull up that proved lots of cats wrong... especially when it comes to SECWC, SECCG, NC, Iron Bowl, best players in the SEC, etc... Hell, I've missed on some, as well....

this is just for fun, isn't it????

BUMPFEST ON!!!!!

Yep got to say I was way wrong. Told you the downturn was coming and it was anything but. Apologies.

[nicks_hammer]

Whoa Coach, I'm not throwing support for or withdrawing from Hevesy. I am taking a step back to attempt to identify the problem from a distance. Sometimes we look at these issues through maroon colored glasses when we need to use clear lenses.

[Taog Redloh]

The difference? Dakota Prescott threw 3 interceptions deep in Bama territory. We get 3 FG's on those drives? We win
Not sure why so many of you don't want to acknowledge that Dakota Prescott was sorta problematic in big games.

But no, it's the coaches fault. Oh wait no it wasn't. What year is this again?

Wow, what a thread.

[TUSK]

Yep got to say I was way wrong. Told you the downturn was coming and it was anything but. Apologies.

ISID, you don't owe me a DAMN thing daddio! You have your bag, and I dig it, buddy...

you keep up the good fight, my friend!

PEACE OUT!

edit: they won't let me give you a REP Point... dunno why...

[TUSK]

Sooooo....because I supported Miles before he lost 5 in a row to Saban or Hevesy before we continue to get more evidence of his shitty recruiting- I have to support them forever????

That like saying you have to support Stands forever because you once did or Jackie Wayne even though he started losing badly- things change,

Coach, you know I'm not cracking on you regarding MSU (in house) related stuff... but I'll never forget the lovefest you you had for Miles... that cat was milking a 4 titted Golden Unicorn at LSU from day one...

LSU's recent, excellent record occurred in spite of Les and/or due to the Process left before him...

that being said, I hate what LSU pulled on em... but I hope he stays there forever...

[dawg27]

Well then why didn't we win? You have admitted that we played good D, and you're claiming we ran the ball like we wanted too. So why did we lose? INT's? Why were we passing the ball if we were running it so authoritatively like you are saying?

Your spin is starting to come full circle.
All of u has got good points, but bottom line we beat 1 sec team with a winning record, ol,dl, running backs, d backs, whatever the problem i dont know but there is a problem hope we can get it fixed.

[cheewgumm]

Only stat I need to know about our OL is that we have up 10 sacks to Bama. The end.