3 bears have escaped the plantation so far this month

[Leroy Jenkins]

Mathers is the latest to leave.

[ShotgunDawg]

Mathers is the latest to leave.

Yup

Hugh Kellenberger ‏@HKellenbergerCL 3m3 minutes ago
RT @Kreager: BREAKING: Former Blackman RB I'Tavius Mathers has announced he is transferring from #OleMiss #HottyToddy

They still return Walton and Wilkins, who were their top two RBs, but, for a team that can't run the ball, I'm not sure that the best way to get better is to be losing experienced players.

[Dallas_Dawg]

IMO, both are better than Hollowayyyyyyyy

[Leroy Jenkins]

IMO, both are better than Hollowayyyyyyyy

Not sure I'm following. Are you comparing their co-starters with a guy that, outside of special teams, usually only touches the ball in garbage time? Or were you just looking to take a shot a shot at Brandon?

[ScottH]

Processing?

Or the bad kind of attrition?

[sleepy dawg]

Not sure I'm following. Are you comparing their co-starters with a guy that, outside of special teams, usually only touches the ball in garbage time? Or were you just looking to take a shot a shot at Brandon?

Yeah, not sure why you would take a shot a Holloway like that. Dude has switched positions at the request of the coaches and has worked his butt off to do so. What's the point of even saying that?

[CadaverDawg]

Mathers is the latest to leave.

I knew about Dodson, but who was the third?

[Todd4State]

I can understand why they are transferring because they have guys that really should be slot WR's that they are trying to make into every down running backs. They can go to Memphis and they will probably be utilized a lot better.

[ShotgunDawg]

I knew about Dodson, but who was the third?

David Kamara, part of the Grayson team.

I posted this the other day, but out of that BEST CLASS EVAH in 2013 they are going to have about 8 4 star players never make any or very little contribution to their team.

Golson, Hooks, Koolio, Brassell, Dodson, Buchanon, Kincade, & Christian Morgan were all rated 4 star by at least one service. All except Morgan were 4 stars on 247 and Morgan was a 4 star on scout. That class really had only 5 very productive players, RK, Treadwell, Connor, Big Softy, and Engram, who was actually rated a 3 star. They also had Wilkins, who was rated a 4 star, but he doesn't enough to deserve a 4 star yet, but also hasn't busted enough to say he won't eventually play like a 4 star.

That class was very top heavy, and, while they have recruited well, next year they will have a lot of talent walking out the door that hasn't been adequately replaced.

[CadaverDawg]

David Kamara, part of the Grayson team.

I posted this the other day, but out of that BEST CLASS EVAH in 2013 they are going to have about 8 4 star players never make any or very little contribution to their team.

That class was very top heavy, and, while they have recruited well, next year they will have a lot of talent walking out the door that hasn't been adequately replaced.

Thanks. Yea, that class isn't very stellar all the sudden.

[Todd4State]

David Kamara, part of the Grayson team.

I posted this the other day, but out of that BEST CLASS EVAH in 2013 they are going to have about 8 4 star players never make any or very little contribution to their team.

That class was very top heavy, and, while they have recruited well, next year they will have a lot of talent walking out the door that hasn't been adequately replaced.

They definitely put all of their eggs in that 2013 class basket. It's kind of crazy.

[PassInterference]

They definitely put all of their eggs in that 2013 class basket. It's kind of crazy.

I'll say. Crootin hasn't been the same sense. You'd think a guy in his 4th crootin season could match how he crooted the lights out after his 1st full year.

What happened? Oh yeah, they got investigated. Hmmm...

They may or may not get in trouble because Bjork has some balls. But the shenanigans have calmed a bit.

[Todd4State]

I'll say. Crootin hasn't been the same sense. You'd think a guy in his 4th crootin season could match how he crooted the lights out after his 1st full year.

What happened? Oh yeah, they got investigated. Hmmm...

They may or may not get in trouble because Bjork has some balls. But the shenanigans have calmed a bit.

I also think that it was a situation where all the stars (no pun intended) lined up.

1. They had deep connections to three of the top players at their position group that year.

2. The city of Memphis had a really strong year that year in terms of talent- Frank Herron, Brian Kimbrow, Mark Dodson, and etc.

3. Three of the top players in the state happened to be from South Panola, and then two legacys- Buchanan and Kalio who upped their rating.

And then they just went all in and went for it and had "the best recruiting class ever."

[BeardoMSU]

I also think that it was a situation where all the stars (no pun intended) lined up.

1. They had deep connections to three of the top players at their position group that year.

2. The city of Memphis had a really strong year that year in terms of talent- Frank Herron, Brian Kimbrow, Mark Dodson, and etc.

3. Three of the top players in the state happened to be from South Panola, and then two legacys- Buchanan and Kalio who upped their rating.

And then they just went all in and went for it and had "the best recruiting class ever."

The key to that class was Nutt. He signed Denzel, who was a 2 start, right? Getting on the inside track for his brother was huge for Freeze. Getting RK on board early was really the linchpin, since those guys go to camps and visits and and actively recruit all the other players. Without DK, no RK. No RK, no Treadwell and no Big Softy.

[PassInterference]

Anybody that believes there was a sibling pull for RK doesn't know anything about RK or his mostly estranged family.

Tunsil & Treadwell laugh at proximity and siblings having anything to do with Ole Miss's pre-investigation crootin success.

[BeardoMSU]

Anybody that believes there was a sibling pull for RK doesn't know anything about RK or his mostly estranged family.

Tunsil & Treadwell laugh at proximity and siblings having anything to do with Ole Miss's pre-investigation crootin success.

You forgot to mention the black helicopters****

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/03/Eye-Roll-gif-6.gif

Yeah, I'm sure playing with his brother had no impact on RK at all, but hey, you are obviously close personal friends with him, so you know.

[engie]

By my count, there's 19 still with the program that showed up in that class of 29 on NSD.

By comparsion, we signed 23. We've got 17 remaining.

They've gotten more true production from those elite 4 than we've gotten from the whole class at this point though IMO...

[msstate7]

Who are the other 2?

[HancockCountyDog]

By my count, there's 19 still with the program that showed up in that class of 29 on NSD.

By comparsion, we signed 23. We've got 17 remaining.

They've gotten more true production from those elite 4 than we've gotten from the whole class at this point though IMO...

As long as they don't get pushback from the high school coaches, this is exactly what we should be doing. They are going to end up with close to a full class and from what I have seen, I don't see a player that has left, except maybe Dodson who was in the two deep.

We need to do this more often. When its clear that we can sign recruits that exceed the talent level of a RS freshman or RS sophomore, I don't think we owe it to the player to keep him on scholly. Just my two cents.

[cujo]

Another key to the class was winning the Egg Bowl. Losing that game cost us a lot, as did this year.

[ShotgunDawg]

Another key to the class was winning the Egg Bowl. Losing that game cost us a lot, as did this year.

That has nothing to do with it.

[mic]

IMO, both are better than Hollowayyyyyyyy

Amazing..... A thread about OM players leaving and u throw a cheap shot in at one of ours..
Pure douche bag move....

[MetEdDawg]

By my count, there's 19 still with the program that showed up in that class of 29 on NSD.

By comparsion, we signed 23. We've got 17 remaining.

They've gotten more true production from those elite 4 than we've gotten from the whole class at this point though IMO...

But let's look at the ones that are no longer on campus for us from who signed in 2013:

1) Cord Sandberg - Biggest loss from that class. Not sure he would have beaten out Dak but he would be a big time upgrade in our backup situation. Only 4 star here that didn't eventually make it to campus.
2) Jeremy Chappelle - Middle tier JUCO 3 star. Never contributed really and wasn't really that big a loss.
3) Trent Simpson - Took a flyer on this kid for football in my opinion. Lot of people I know saw him play football and said he never would have played for us in both football and baseball. Add the injury and this was a project from day 1. Very low 3 star
4) Artimas Samuel - Could have been a big piece for us. This was our 2nd biggest loss. He could have been a x factor at TE/FB/HB for us, but still not an overwhelming loss. 2 star
5) JJ McGrath - Nothing burger here. Not sure what we ever had here so we don't know what we lost - Wasn't even rated
6) Donald Gray - Back on campus so we did our job here keeping him on board with us so we really only lost 5 guys.

The guys OM lost were:
1) Nick Brassell - Consensus 4 star and one of the top players in the entire state of MS.
2) Austin Golson - Consensus 4 star and top 10 OT in the country according to 24/7. Transferred out.
3) Mark Dodson - Consensus 4 star and an RB many thought would come in and make an instant impact. #22 RB in the country according to 24/7
4) Christian Morgan - #15 TE in the country according to 24/7. They thought he would be a big time difference maker right away.
5) Quadarias Mireles - Transferred out the same year he signed with them. Mid level 3 star WR
6) Bobby Hill - Charged with sexual battery and dismissed. Low tier 3 star WR
7) Arshad Jackson - Mid to high 3 star TE. Not academically eligible.
8) Marcus Robinson - Mid 3 star OLB. Went JUCO
9) David Kamara - Low 3 star high 2 star. Just left a couple days ago.

I might be missing someone, but just look at the star power they lost in that class. Their top 4 on that list were big time prospects that are no longer on campus. We really only lost one and that was Sandberg. Look at the percentages. They've lost 9 out of 29, which is 31% of that class to quitting, kicked off, or transfer. We lost 5 (not counting Gray because he's back), but losing 5 out of 23 is 21%. And the guys we lost really weren't that big a loss except Sandberg.

True they've gotten big stuff out of their top 4 in that class, but look at the lack of depth. Next year they will be thinner in depth than this past year and after next year, they are going to lose a massive amount of guys with very little in the cupboard waiting. Our 2013 class has barely taken shape yet. Chris Jones, Shumpert, Fred Ross, Jake Thomas, Shelby Christy, BJ Hammond, Gabe Myles, Kent Flowers, Clayborn, Bear Wilson. This class of ours has barely seen the field yet and most of us feel there is a lot of potential with these guys. OM's 2013 class will be 60-70% gone by the end of next year. Our's will be maybe 35-40%.

[thunderclap]

By my count, there's 19 still with the program that showed up in that class of 29 on NSD.

By comparsion, we signed 23. We've got 17 remaining.

They've gotten more true production from those elite 4 than we've gotten from the whole class at this point though IMO...

Don't both classes have the same amount of wins and Egg Bowls? So it's a draw at this point?

[ShotgunDawg]

By my count, there's 19 still with the program that showed up in that class of 29 on NSD.

By comparsion, we signed 23. We've got 17 remaining.

They've gotten more true production from those elite 4 than we've gotten from the whole class at this point though IMO...

This isn't true.

Treadwell has 1240 yards and 11 TDs for his career, while Wilson & Ross have a combined 1,632 & 17 TDs for their career.

Chris Jones and RK basically cancel each other out in terms of production.

Ashton Shumpert has 472 yards for his career, and isn't even the primary back yet.

We also had Gabe Myles in that class and he's done a few things as well.

Connor has clearly outplayed Justin Cox

We don't have a comparison to Tunsil, except maybe Clayborn, but hasn't played enough yet for us to know.

After that, we redshirted so many guys, that they simply haven't played enough to equal the production.

[cujo]

I don't believe they get Tunsil without 2012 Egg Bowl. It's certainly not the only reason, but it factored in. Plus, if we win that one and this one, we've won six in a row. Believe what you want, I choose to believe it hurts them, especially with out of state kids, from a perception standpoint.

[RougeDawg]

Over the last 7-10 years the Bear recruiting classes have been hit with massive attrition from. The higher ranked portion of those classes. No class they've singed, is better than ours after years 2-3. We go for guys who got out program while they go for player ranks. Hopefully we can start to sustain success, while they hope to catch lightning in a bottle every few years.

[Coach34]

I don't believe they get Tunsil without 2012 Egg Bowl. It's certainly not the only reason, but it factored in. Plus, if we win that one and this one, we've won six in a row. Believe what you want, I choose to believe it hurts them, especially with out of state kids, from a perception standpoint.

Them winning the 2012 Egg Bowl was HUGE for them. Had they been at 5-7 and no bowl- it would have impacted their recruiting a little and tapered some of their enthusiasm. Them finally beating Mullen, having a winning season, and then playing a shitty team to win a bowl game gave them tons of momentum.

[engie]

This isn't true.

Treadwell has 1240 yards and 11 TDs for his career, while Wilson & Ross have a combined 1,632 & 17 TDs for their career.

Chris Jones and RK basically cancel each other out in terms of production.

Ashton Shumpert has 472 yards for his career, and isn't even the primary back yet.

We also had Gabe Myles in that class and he's done a few things as well.

Connor has clearly outplayed Justin Cox

We don't have a comparison to Tunsil, except maybe Clayborn, but hasn't played enough yet for us to know.

After that, we redshirted so many guys, that they simply haven't played enough to equal the production.

So, your argument is that we have 2 guys from that class that have combined for more productivity than one of theirs -- and base the brunt of your argument on future contribution rather than past(which mine was based on)?

They literally got the best WR in that class, the best OT, and the best SS. I don't give a shit about recruiting rankings -- that's what has happened on the field. If you want to argue for Chris Jones as RN's equal or superior, I'm all for it. That doesn't stop the rest from being true. I don't care how many guys have played -- Play 100 here -- doesn't make them individually more productive than those 4.

I knew when I typed it this was going to get the spin cycle in why our class was "better" based on future outlook, etc but that isn't and wasn't my argument. It doesn't make you less an MSU fan to admit they hit on the top of that class as well as you possibly can. Have they lost alot of talent in the middle? Sure. Did they have a few paper tigers? Sure. Again, none of which I was actually saying.

[smootness]

1) Cord Sandberg - Biggest loss from that class. Not sure he would have beaten out Dak but he would be a big time upgrade in our backup situation. Only 4 star here that didn't eventually make it to campus.

I'll be honest, I don't see Sandberg as a big loss. There's no way in the world he would have beaten out Dak. He would have been a better backup than Williams this year, sure, but I question whether he would have ever started. I think Staley and Fitzgerald both have more natural talent. Sandberg's running ability was great, but his arm was questionable at best. I think his ceiling was lower than a lot of people think.

[Coach34]

Meh Engie

Treadwell won the battle over Wilson as Freshman- Wilson > Treadwell in 2014. And probably in 2015 also
Jones is putting slightly better stats up than Kimchee playing less plays

Safety is no comparision- advantage OM

Big Softy has produced for them- but his career is questionable moving forward. To this point they have an advantage there- but moving forward it will definitely be us on the OL

That not spin- thats truth

[Bully13]

I know there are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but I've seen tsun come up with big splashes in crootin' after bad seasons coupled with egg bowl losses.

that's when their cheaters kick into overdrive. they go bat shit crazy to "right the ship".. I've seen it too many times to believe otherwise.

I'd be hard pressed to find another team that can consistently have bad season after bad season then in Feb make a big splash with a highly ranked crootin' class.

their cheating plays a much bigger part than the egg bowl is the way I see it.

[cujo]

I don't disagree with this

[engie]

Meh Engie

Treadwell won the battle over Wilson as Freshman- Wilson > Treadwell in 2014. And probably in 2015 also
Treadwell had 48 receptions for 632 yards and 5 TDs in 9 games this year.
Wilson had 47 receptions for 680 yards and 9 TDs in 13 games this year.

I don't understand the hesitation of people calling Treadwell what he is -- elite. That doesn't mean that De'Runnya can't be as well, he can and it looks like he will. But it can't be argued that he's matched Treadwell's production to this point. Which is what my post was about. Production. Not potential.


Jones is putting slightly better stats up than Kimchee playing less plays
They've been about equal.


Big Softy has produced for them- but his career is questionable moving forward. To this point they have an advantage there- but moving forward it will definitely be us on the OL
Why will it definitely be us? Clayborn vs Tunsil = advantage OM. Thomas vs Boudin = Toss. Flowers vs Johnson = Toss. And they got a year worth of production out of Austin Golson. There's no clear indication that we beat them in the class at that spot. They have ?30? starts from their class and both Boudin and Johnson in the Peach Bowl 2-deep on the OL. We have zero starts and only Clayborn in the 2-deep.

Really doesn't matter either way. It doesn't make us less MSU fans or hurt MSU's position or potential in any way to admit what's right in front of us from that class. It's fun to needle them about all that's lost and gone from that class -- but as long as the top 4 continue to produce(which is certainly in question with the injuries going forward), they will sit back and laugh at the insinuations, and rightfully so. If people are looking to get under their skin about that class, the only one that actually does that is Austin Golson...

[defiantdog]

Treadwell had 48 receptions for 632 yards and 5 TDs in 9 games this year.
Wilson had 47 receptions for 680 yards and 9 TDs in 13 games this year.

I don't understand the hesitation of people calling Treadwell what he is -- elite. That doesn't mean that De'Runnya can't be as well, he can and it looks like he will. But it can't be argued that he's matched Treadwell's production to this point. Which is what my post was about. Production. Not potential.



Wilson only played in 11 games last year. He sat out the South Alabama game and the Vandy game. So their numbers are virtually identical except Bear has 4 more touchdowns in just 2 more games than Treadwell. Looks to me, that they're pretty damn equal.

[ShotgunDawg]

Engine,

I don't understand what your trying to argue. I nor anyone else ever said that those top 4 players weren't completely legit. Connor, Treadwell, Tunsil, and RNK are all excellent players.

However, you said, " Those 4 players have out produced our entire 2013 class", and that simply isn't true.

You trying to compare Treadwell to Wilson, but you said the whole class, not just the one comparative player. Due to what you said, you have to compare Treadwell's production to Wilson, Ross, and Myles.

Those 4 players are great, but I was responding to your incorrect point. If that's not what you meant to say, than that's your fault for saying it, not mine for showing it was incorrect.

I believe Treadwell is slightly better than Bear, but from a production standpoint, they've been about equal, and when you add Ross and Myles against Treadwell, it isn't close.

[Political Hack]

Treadwell is a stud. he's more talented than Bear, but Bear is more productive to this point. Pure receiving stats don't begin to tell the entire story either. Bear's run blocking is what separates them at this point IMO. As far as NFL talent goes though, Treadwell is WAY ahead of Bear. But they can gladly have that as long as we continue to get better production.

Conner may be the best S in the SEC next year.

[smootness]

Treadwell is an elite talent, but he's not quite an elite player yet. Very, very good, sure, but not yet elite. Tunsil and Conner are probably already elite.

But we've seen in the past that we don't usually get a ton of production out of classes their first couple of years. Considering they will only have one more year from the best part of that class, let's revisit this in 3 years.

[Coach34]

Treadwell had 48 receptions for 632 yards and 5 TDs in 9 games this year.
Wilson had 47 receptions for 680 yards and 9 TDs in 13 games this year..

Wilson played in only 11 games- not 13. He is physical, overpowering blocker. He averaged more ypc and scored almost twice as many TD's in the same number of receptions

Wilson > Treadwell in 2014...and probably better in 2015. I say that because Wilson is figuring the game of football out finally. He has learned so much and gotten the experience needed. He will be a man to deal with next year

[engie]

Wilson only played in 11 games last year. He sat out the South Alabama game and the Vandy game. So their numbers are virtually identical except Bear has 4 more touchdowns in just 2 more games than Treadwell. Looks to me, that they're pretty damn equal.

And what does that look like from 2013? Or are you selectively editing that out of a post that was clearly about career production?

[Bully13]

And what does that look like from 2013? Or are you selectively editing that out of a post that was clearly about career production?

based on how much H.S. football Bear played vs paidwell, I would think the '14 stats like coach stated are more relevant to the discussion. the blocking says a lot too.

[engie]

Engine,

I don't understand what your trying to argue.
I'm not trying to argue. I just made an observation that you attempted to refute.


I nor anyone else ever said that those top 4 players weren't completely legit. Connor, Treadwell, Tunsil, and RNK are all excellent players.

However, you said, " Those 4 players have out produced our entire 2013 class", and that simply isn't true. Those 4 players are great, but I was responding to your incorrect point. If that's not what you meant to say, than that's your fault for saying it, not mine for showing it was incorrect.
So you are actually trying to have a semantics debate over a post I made well past midnight last night? This is why I make long posts -- so people don't misinterpret what I'm trying to say and draw it into an argument -- especially when people already know what I was actually trying to convey.

My argument is clearly laid out in the last paragraph of my previous post. I guess I should have fought through the sleepiness to define it last night.


You trying to compare Treadwell to Wilson, but you said the whole class, not just the one comparative player. Due to what you said, you have to compare Treadwell's production to Wilson, Ross, and Myles.
Ok, add Engram. Then what? Then add Adeboyejo.

[engie]

Treadwell is an elite talent, but he's not quite an elite player yet. Very, very good, sure, but not yet elite. Tunsil and Conner are probably already elite.

But we've seen in the past that we don't usually get a ton of production out of classes their first couple of years. Considering they will only have one more year from the best part of that class, let's revisit this in 3 years.

What does Treadwell do that is not elite?

People pointing to Bear as an elite blocker(I agree, he's really good) as a strength over Treadwell apparently haven't actually really watched Treadwell play. He's one of the more unselfish WR at his talent level that I've seen and is an elite blocker in his own right...

[Coach34]

Nobody is saying Treadwell isnt very damn good. What we are saying is that Wilson > Treadwell in 2014. And he was. Staying healthy is part of production as well.

And if you had to pick one going into 2015- I dont see how you wouldnt choose Wilson

[smootness]

What does Treadwell do that is not elite?

People pointing to Bear as an elite blocker(I agree, he's really good) as a strength over Treadwell apparently haven't actually really watched Treadwell play. He's one of the more unselfish WR at his talent level that I've seen and is an elite blocker in his own right...

I didn't say anything about his blocking. I just don't think he's taken that next step into 'elite college player' yet. His production doesn't yet show him to be elite...and when I say elite, I'm talking like top 10 in the nation at his position. He can get there with his talent, but I don't think he's quite there yet. But it's not that big of a disparity; I didn't mean to get into an argument over it, just offering my opinion. Not trying to downgrade them anywhere.

It's the same way I would say Fournette is an elite talent but not yet an elite RB. It just takes time to get there.

[msstate7]

What does Treadwell do that is not elite?

People pointing to Bear as an elite blocker(I agree, he's really good) as a strength over Treadwell apparently haven't actually really watched Treadwell play. He's one of the more unselfish WR at his talent level that I've seen and is an elite blocker in his own right...

I really like treadwell as a player. That said I like coates, duke Williams, and Cooper better. It's hard for me to call him elite when there's 3 better wr's in the sec west imo

[engie]

I really like treadwell as a player. That said I like coates, duke Williams, and Cooper better. It's hard for me to call him elite when there's 3 better wr's in the sec west imo

3 WRs that play for better teams in the west. Not better WRs... IMO

Let us not forget that Treadwell had a QB that couldn't throw the ball down the field. It's close to impossible to put up elite production when everything you catch is basically mandatorily within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage.

[smootness]

3 WRs that play for better teams in the west. Not better WRs... IMO

Let us not forget that Treadwell had a QB that couldn't throw the ball down the field. It's close to impossible to put up elite production when everything you catch is basically mandatorily within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Do you think Treadwell is on Cooper's level? And I'm not being antagonistic, I'm honestly curious.

[BeardoMSU]

Do you think Treadwell is on Cooper's level? And I'm not being antagonistic, I'm honestly curious.

Cooper was the primary target in that system. Give Treadwell a QB that looks for him first, in every progression, and he would beast. This is all hyperbole, though, since he'll never get that chance at OM.

Jesus, this thread reeks of "FAP", as they call it.

[smootness]

Cooper was the primary target in that system. Give Treadwell a QB that looks for him first, in every progression, and he would beast. This is all hyperbole, though, since he'll never get that chance at OM.

Jesus, this thread reeks of "FAP", as they call it.

Personally, I just can't agree with this. To me, Treadwell is not even close to Cooper's level. Treadwell's QB was not as good, but he was options 1, 2, and 3 in that offense. Treadwell is great as a big target, but he's nowhere near the overall threat Cooper is.

[smootness]

Dang it, duplicate.

[msstate7]

Personally, I just can't agree with this. To me, Treadwell is not even close to Cooper's level. Treadwell's QB was not as good, but he was options 1, 2, and 3 in that offense. Treadwell is great as a big target, but he's nowhere near the overall threat Cooper is.

Cooper is gonna be a top 10 pick, maybe top 5. Cooper is a much more talented player

[BeardoMSU]

Personally, I just can't agree with this. To me, Treadwell is not even close to Cooper's level. Treadwell's QB was not as good, but he was options 1, 2, and 3 in that offense. Treadwell is great as a big target, but he's nowhere near the overall threat Cooper is.

Cooper is a bad ass, no doubt. I'm not saying Treadwell is as good right now as Coop, just that he doesn't get nearly the amount of touches. Also the route running in Bama's offense is a lot different than OM's. That being said, all of this Bear vs. Treadwell talk is stupid. So who cares? Bear is our guy, and he hasn't even begun to touch his potential. But, Treadwell is ELITE. Repeat, he is ELITE, NOW. It's not potential with him, he's got the tools. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't get to show them off in Freeze's offense. Bear on the other hand, has gotten considerably better in his two years. If he shows the same amount of growth into his 3rd year as he did his 2nd, then look out. This whole idea that we have to measure our players/success/ability/etc. against OM only perpetuates the stereotype that they live in our heads rent free.

[defiantdog]

And what does that look like from 2013? Or are you selectively editing that out of a post that was clearly about career production?

Sure, I'll compare freshman seasons. Yes, Bear's receptions and total yards were below Treadwell's, but Bear averaged 13.5 yards per catch his freshman year while Treadwell only averaged 8.4 yards. Bear had 3 td's compared to Treadwell's 5. Treadwell's total stats in 2 years are 120 receptions for 1,240 yards and 10 tds while Bear's totals stats state he had 73 receptions for 1,031 yards and 12 tds. It seems to me that Bear has produced more with less receptions (because the majority of his receptions aren't off screens). Also, the stats show that Bear's development from year one to year two surpassed Treadwell. So, I wouldn't say he can potentially be as good as Treadwell. I'd say he can potentially pass Treadwell.