What is the best guess on who our new [Archive]

Todd4State

12-28-2014, 11:31 PM

O and a LB coach. Turner moves on. Hope like hell Mullen wakes his ass up, moves Sallach off the field, and fills his spot with a real ST coach. But at this point there are no rumblings and I'm not expecting it. Look for the same shitty STs in 2015.

With Sobiesk (around 80% FG PCT), Bell/Cooke and hopefully Gray at KR/PR we should be better. That is arguably the best group of special teamers during Dan's tenure. But the question is, how much will Dan meddle?

If he will let Gray, Redmond, and hopefully Robinson if he comes back return kicks for us, I think it will make a HUGE difference for us.

Todd4State

12-28-2014, 11:34 PM

I want O in Starkville, but if he is coming then why the wait? The delay makes me think it may be someone coaching for a current team that has yet to play their bowl game. But Mullen hasn't consulted with me so what do I know?

To win the press conference after we win the Orange Bowl. There is no need to announce who the new DC is before our bowl game. Just sit tight and enjoy the Orange Bowl.

This is typically how we have handled most of the other coaching changes under Dan to date.

IMissJack

12-29-2014, 02:47 PM

O is not stupid, there are still some big time DC openings out there, and others that may open up, for example LSU and A&M.

Brahmabull

12-29-2014, 03:13 PM

Not to mention that we may have somebody else we would like to talk with before deciding. There are several good candidates still coaching in bowls.

Johnson85

12-29-2014, 03:27 PM

O is not stupid, there are still some big time DC openings out there, and others that may open up, for example LSU and A&M.

O wants a head coaching job or to go back to USC. Not saying he wouldn't be willing to come to MSU in the interim, but I'm not sure Mullen will want to fight for his salary knowing it will likely be a one year stop.

DownwardDawg

12-29-2014, 03:28 PM

Probably somebody not mentioned on this board so far. Or maybe just mentioned as one of the possible candidates.

maroonmania

12-29-2014, 04:08 PM

O wants a head coaching job or to go back to USC. Not saying he wouldn't be willing to come to MSU in the interim, but I'm not sure Mullen will want to fight for his salary knowing it will likely be a one year stop.

At this point just get the best coaches you can hire. Its not looking likely that Mullen is going to keep any DC long term. Either they are performing well and are getting hired away by huge budget schools or they are not performing and Mullen sends them on their way.

Johnson85

12-29-2014, 04:42 PM

At this point just get the best coaches you can hire. Its not looking likely that Mullen is going to keep any DC long term. Either they are performing well and are getting hired away by huge budget schools or they are not performing and Mullen sends them on their way.

Yes, but Orgeron is recognized as a good coaching candidate because of his skills as a recruiter, not because of his skills as a coordinator. You go out and hire a good up and coming coordinator, and you know there's a good chance that after two years, he will either have proven himself to be a good coordinator and will be fielding offers or he will have been encouraged to look elsewhere. But if things go well, you got two good years of coaching out of it.

If Mullen picks up Orgeron, even if he will commit to two years, you're talking about one good year of recruiting and signing day, and then one year of recruiting with him likely leaving before signing day. Either he will get a good head coaching opportunity, or he will get paid a few hundred thousand more than we will pay to come be a Co-head coacha nd recruiting coordinator (alongside a defensive coordinator making at least as much as we were paying him. If Mullen doesn't have confidence in his ability to call games and make in-game adjustments, I'm not sure how much we get out of that one and a half years of recruiting.

And I'm a fan of Orgeron. I think what he did at USC shows he has some valuable skills as a coach and can run a program with the right staff. But the fact that he hasn't really called games as a DC since he was at Ole Miss makes me skeptical that in-game adjustments and play calling are something he's cut out for. I think his best value is actually at one of the dozen or so schools that will pay more than MSU, where they can hire a good OC and DC and still afford to pay him close to $1M to be recruiting coordinator, be the players' coach on staff, teach defensive line, and help the HC manage all the non- X's and O's parts of the program.

The one caveat is that he probably has some insight into UM's recruiting process and maybe could help us imitate some of the things we'd be willing to copy. But I'm not sure there's that much of that left. We will know more in February, but going off results it seems likely we are doing basically the same things as every other SEC school other than Auburn and UM do.

IMissJack

12-29-2014, 05:10 PM

If Mullen picks up Orgeron, even if he will commit to two years, you're talking about one good year of recruiting and signing day, and then one year of recruiting with him likely leaving before signing day. Either he will get a good head coaching opportunity, or he will get paid a few hundred thousand more than we will pay to come be a Co-head coacha nd recruiting coordinator (alongside a defensive coordinator making at least as much as we were paying him. If Mullen doesn't have confidence in his ability to call games and make in-game adjustments, I'm not sure how much we get out of that one and a half years of recruiting.

And I'm a fan of Orgeron. I think what he did at USC shows he has some valuable skills as a coach and can run a program with the right staff. But the fact that he hasn't really called games as a DC since he was at Ole Miss makes me skeptical that in-game adjustments and play calling are something he's cut out for. I think his best value is actually at one of the dozen or so schools that will pay more than MSU, where they can hire a good OC and DC and still afford to pay him close to $1M to be recruiting coordinator, be the players' coach on staff, teach defensive line, and help the HC manage all the non- X's and O's parts of the program.

It would also give O a foothold back in Mississippi recruiting. So if he did go somewhere else after a year or so, he would likely take some of our recruits in the future. Just playing devil's advocate here.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 05:12 PM

O wants a head coaching job or to go back to USC. Not saying he wouldn't be willing to come to MSU in the interim, but I'm not sure Mullen will want to fight for his salary knowing it will likely be a one year stop.

And he is unemployed right now. If he can show that he can be a good DC at MSU, it will make him more attractive as a head coach. Especially if he behaves.

I can't see USC taking him back in the foreseeable future.

Coach34

12-29-2014, 05:15 PM

Guys- I'm pretty certain O is the guy. And this is not a guess. Like Hack said- we may already have a signed contract but haven't announced it yet.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 05:16 PM

Yes, but Orgeron is recognized as a good coaching candidate because of his skills as a recruiter, not because of his skills as a coordinator. You go out and hire a good up and coming coordinator, and you know there's a good chance that after two years, he will either have proven himself to be a good coordinator and will be fielding offers or he will have been encouraged to look elsewhere. But if things go well, you got two good years of coaching out of it.

If Mullen picks up Orgeron, even if he will commit to two years, you're talking about one good year of recruiting and signing day, and then one year of recruiting with him likely leaving before signing day. Either he will get a good head coaching opportunity, or he will get paid a few hundred thousand more than we will pay to come be a Co-head coacha nd recruiting coordinator (alongside a defensive coordinator making at least as much as we were paying him. If Mullen doesn't have confidence in his ability to call games and make in-game adjustments, I'm not sure how much we get out of that one and a half years of recruiting.

And I'm a fan of Orgeron. I think what he did at USC shows he has some valuable skills as a coach and can run a program with the right staff. But the fact that he hasn't really called games as a DC since he was at Ole Miss makes me skeptical that in-game adjustments and play calling are something he's cut out for. I think his best value is actually at one of the dozen or so schools that will pay more than MSU, where they can hire a good OC and DC and still afford to pay him close to $1M to be recruiting coordinator, be the players' coach on staff, teach defensive line, and help the HC manage all the non- X's and O's parts of the program.

The one caveat is that he probably has some insight into UM's recruiting process and maybe could help us imitate some of the things we'd be willing to copy. But I'm not sure there's that much of that left. We will know more in February, but going off results it seems likely we are doing basically the same things as every other SEC school other than Auburn and UM do.

He is an elite D-line coach as well. If Coach O gives us two really good classes and maybe more importantly shows Dan how to recruit a little bit more creatively, and gets us in roads into Memphis and New Orleans it would be well worth the investment. Our recruiting would no doubt pick up because Coach O is motivated to get revenge on Ole Miss. And he knows where to hit them the most.

thunderclap

12-29-2014, 05:34 PM

Well, as long as everybody is what-iffing, what if it's O and he likes it here and has success and has a fat contract and stays 4 or 5 years?

HoopsDawg

12-29-2014, 06:24 PM

maroonmania

12-29-2014, 06:26 PM

Guys- I'm pretty certain O is the guy. And this is not a guess. Like Hack said- we may already have a signed contract but haven't announced it yet.

Are you hearing just as DL coach or as DC?

Dawg496

12-29-2014, 06:28 PM

Coach O is a damn home run. Pair him with a Randy Shannon or Bill Clark and its a grand slam.

Dawgcentral

12-29-2014, 06:29 PM

Just include a big buy-out in the contract if you want him to stay on awhile.

NCDawg

12-29-2014, 06:31 PM

Coach O is a damn home run. Pair him with a Randy Shannon or Bill Clark and its a grand slam.

I agree, but I would pair O with Manny Diaz for a grand slam.

engie

12-29-2014, 06:31 PM

Yes, but Orgeron is recognized as a good coaching candidate because of his skills as a recruiter, not because of his skills as a coordinator. You go out and hire a good up and coming coordinator, and you know there's a good chance that after two years, he will either have proven himself to be a good coordinator and will be fielding offers or he will have been encouraged to look elsewhere. But if things go well, you got two good years of coaching out of it.

If Mullen picks up Orgeron, even if he will commit to two years, you're talking about one good year of recruiting and signing day, and then one year of recruiting with him likely leaving before signing day. Either he will get a good head coaching opportunity, or he will get paid a few hundred thousand more than we will pay to come be a Co-head coacha nd recruiting coordinator (alongside a defensive coordinator making at least as much as we were paying him. If Mullen doesn't have confidence in his ability to call games and make in-game adjustments, I'm not sure how much we get out of that one and a half years of recruiting.

And I'm a fan of Orgeron. I think what he did at USC shows he has some valuable skills as a coach and can run a program with the right staff. But the fact that he hasn't really called games as a DC since he was at Ole Miss makes me skeptical that in-game adjustments and play calling are something he's cut out for. I think his best value is actually at one of the dozen or so schools that will pay more than MSU, where they can hire a good OC and DC and still afford to pay him close to $1M to be recruiting coordinator, be the players' coach on staff, teach defensive line, and help the HC manage all the non- X's and O's parts of the program.

The one caveat is that he probably has some insight into UM's recruiting process and maybe could help us imitate some of the things we'd be willing to copy. But I'm not sure there's that much of that left. We will know more in February, but going off results it seems likely we are doing basically the same things as every other SEC school other than Auburn and UM do.

I'm basically with you -- other than worrying about how long a guy is around. Brewster wasn't here long -- but a couple of the ideals he instilled stuck with us. We learned from that. That's Coach O's primary value to us IMO...

These hire(s) will prove to me what we are gonna be going forward. One way or another.

engie

12-29-2014, 06:35 PM

Coach O is a damn home run. Pair him with a Randy Shannon or Bill Clark and its a grand slam.

Agreed...

We might could hold Clark for a little while as well. Kinda doubt he'd drop us for a lateral move as DC somewhere else. Someone in the southeast would have to offer him a head gig IMO...

msstate7

12-29-2014, 06:37 PM

Agreed...

We might could hold Clark for a little while as well. Kinda doubt he'd drop us for a lateral move as DC somewhere else. Someone in the southeast would have to offer him a head gig IMO...

Is clark a possibility? I would be estatic with him

Coach34

12-29-2014, 06:45 PM

Are you hearing just as DL coach or as DC?

We're not about to pay a DL coach 750K...so ima guess DC

engie

12-29-2014, 06:52 PM

We're not about to pay a DL coach 750K...so ima guess DC

We could. We should.

Like was just said -- this hire will define what we're willing to be. We won on the highest level. We've got to pay on the highest level if we want to sustain it.

Clemson had the 3rd highest paid assistant staff in the country this year. Ask them what Venables is worth right now...

IMissJack

12-29-2014, 06:54 PM

Well, as long as everybody is what-iffing, what if it's O and he likes it here and has success and has a fat contract and stays 4 or 5 years?

+1

Dawg496

12-29-2014, 06:57 PM

We could. We should.

Like was just said -- this hire will define what we're willing to be. We won on the highest level. We've got to pay on the highest level if we want to sustain it.

Clemson had the 3rd highest paid assistant staff in the country this year. Ask them what Venables is worth right now...

Seriously this would basically confirm every suspicion that Stricklin doesn't have what it takes. No reason we can't shell out an extra $2.75-3.25 million in salaries going forward. $1-1.5 million for Dan (whatever he wants) and premium for the DC as well as nice raises for the rest.

This is what will take to win in the SEC. Auburn is a great example - went out and made about the best available hire for DC opposite one of the best offensive minds in the business and they paid what was necessary.

With the extra $30 million a year we'll have every year starting this year, we can't justify not spending 10% of that on coaches especially when football is directly responsible for producing 95% of that figure to begin with.

Coach34

12-29-2014, 07:18 PM

engie

12-29-2014, 07:21 PM

Orgeron is not coming to State for anything less than the DC job. He can get a DL/recruiting job anywhere he wants for alot more money.

O is going to be the DC barring some 11th hour craziness and we'll see how the rest shakes out

If he is named the actual DC, I will disagree with it. Linebackers coach? Sheesh.

I'll hold my tongue about it until we have results and hope I'm wrong. But if it goes how I see it going, I'll be every bit as unbearable as I was for the last half of 2013. It's got "won press conference, Chris Wilson 2012 on the field" all over it. Wasting Dak's senior year on a 'crooter as DC simply so we can learn "the process?"

I'll try to let it go for now and keep an open mind. Mullen has made alot of right moves lately, and he certainly knows better than me. So we will see.

HoopsDawg

12-29-2014, 07:21 PM

HoopsDawg

12-29-2014, 07:22 PM

If he is named the actual DC, I will disagree with it. Linebackers coach? Sheesh.

I'll hold my tongue about it until we have results and hope I'm wrong. But if it goes how I see it going, I'll be every bit as unbearable as I was for the last half of 2013. Wasting Dak's senior year on a 'crooter as DC simply so we can learn "the process?" Sheesh...

No worries, you are unbearable either way.

engie

12-29-2014, 07:24 PM

No worries, you are unbearable either way.

Touche.

cheewgumm

12-29-2014, 07:42 PM

Tbone

12-29-2014, 07:45 PM

Jimmy's and Joe's>X's and O's

Dawgowar

12-29-2014, 07:52 PM

I'm pretty convinced that "good recruiting" just means you pay more.

The same could be said about spying on other countries or buying a really hot call girl - but if you do it wrong you're in the middle of a shit storm. I do agree with the sentiment that recruiting ain't hard, just hard work that needs 'infrastructure'.

Dan finds guys he likes and lets it rip. If this is what he wants and he understands that if it is a soup sandwich his offense may have to score 50 a game, so be it. Just score the 50 points.

Will not surprise me if there are others lined up to fall in on our Defensive Staff positions with some additional departure(s) about to happen.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 08:19 PM

I understand the risk with Coach O as a DC. But the fact of the matter is- even Nick Saban had to get his chance somewhere. We all did in whatever job we are doing now. When we hired Dan, we didn't know if he was going to be a good coach or Croom 2.0. There is risk with any hire that we make.

I think him getting the Ole Miss HC job probably set him back some because he simply wasn't ready for a HC job. But, at the same time- Ole Miss was desperate after missing out on Dennis Erikson, Tony Dungy, and whomever else that they completely whiffed on after firing Cutcliffe. And if you are Coach O, hey- it was a SEC HC job and he was just a d-line coach. And I'm guessing that part of the reason why he acted like a fool with the "Wild Boyz" and ripping his shirt off and all of that was because the Ole Miss administration probably told him to do some of that crap because Cutcliffe was/is pretty stoic. That's probably part of the reason why he doesn't like them- doing that stuff probably hurt his image and then Ole Miss probably ripped him about it after he was fired.

Orgeron has studied under Pete Carroll- who is up there with Bellicheck and Saban as far as defensive minds go, and the Godfather of the Tampa Two Monte Kiffen. It's hard to say he was a bad DC at Ole Miss since he was also doing HC duties too. In fact, he eventually gave up the DC role and let John Thompson handle it by 2007. He did a darn good job at USC as their interim HC- and he didn't act anything like he did at Ole Miss.

As far as Orgeron and recruiting, if he can bring in enough elite players, it may not matter as much how good of DC he is. We recruit very well as it is IMO. But I think Coach O would put us over the top when you combine what he can do with Dan's talent evaluation skills and Tony Hughes in the fold. We already typically win Mississippi- but I think with Coach O, we could dominate it. Coach O might be the difference between us getting a guy like a Javon Patterson in the future. I think he will get us into Memphis and we can possibly get us some of the top guys there and maybe even "win" the recruiting battle in the city. I think he will get us into NOLA more and help us get a guy like Mike Wallace like he did when he was at Ole Miss. Coach O also has connections in California, which might even allow us to go after some good QB prospects potentially over there, which is pretty lethal with Brian Johnson's connections to Texas.

If Coach O did that at a minimum, it would greatly affect Ole Miss's recruiting for probably quite awhile. If we completely take away Mississippi and put a dent in their Memphis recruiting, it's going to make their life a LOT harder.

Plus, I'm looking forward to watching their fans flip out when we start having guys do hat flips and start picking us on NSD.

raymond21

12-29-2014, 08:19 PM

or they simply just can't get along with Mullen. This possible O hire is potentially going to be the largest firework display this side of the river, including Disney

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 08:21 PM

I'm pretty convinced that "good recruiting" just means you pay more.

Regardless, I'm thrilled if we get Orgeron. He'll be a good enough DC, and will help us learn to "recruit" better, which will pay dividends for years to come.

Not always. If a kid likes a school better than the other one, he might be willing to give the school he likes a "discount".

But even if we get into a bidding war over a player, that's going to suck up more of Ole Miss's "resources" and might cost them another player or two in the class.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 08:24 PM

Jimmy's and Joe's>X's and O's

Do you really think we can get better Jimmy & Joe's than the majority of the teams in this league? Not to mention that a bunch of the teams also have great X's & O's to go with elite talent. Obviously you want good players but this league is the NFL light. Your not going to just out talent everybody. Especially here at this point in time.

Dawgowar

12-29-2014, 08:25 PM

or they simply just can't get along with Mullen. This possible O hire is potentially going to be the largest firework display this side of the river, including Disney

No, Mullen's canning of poor performers has been done pretty discreetly. Cover has been given to all of them in terms of their dignity and if I am not mistaken stating they were not fired. They just moved on. Dan is demanding and thankfully for us does not give a shit if people do not like it.

As Jackie used to say - "Somebody has to be the Son-Of-A-Bitch"

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 08:32 PM

Do you really think we can get better Jimmy & Joe's than the majority of the teams in this league? Not to mention that a bunch of the teams also have great X's & O's to go with elite talent. Obviously you want good players but this league is the NFL light. Your not going to just out talent everybody. Especially here at this point in time.

We're holding our own right now. Dak is a Heisman contender, and Josh is a borderline Heisman contender. Chris Jones, Bear, McKinney, and Redmond all have/had the potential to leave for the NFL early not including Dak and Josh. And that doesn't even include guys like Beniquez Brown, Calhoun, Clausell and etc. that are going to get a shot at in the NFL after four years.

If we can:

Land 12-15 of the top players in Mississippi (we're coming close to that currently- and Coach O might be able to land the 2-3 that we miss)
Land 5 of the top players from Memphis
Land 2-3 guys from NOLA that LSU doesn't have room for
Round it out with Dan's Diamonds in the rough as space allows

I could live with that. And with Coach O, Hughes, Knox, Gonzales, and Deshea- the above is very doable.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 08:33 PM

No, Mullen's canning of poor performers has been done pretty discreetly. Cover has been given to all of them in terms of their dignity and if I am not mistaken stating they were not fired. They just moved on. Dan is demanding and thankfully for us does not give a shit if people do not like it.

As Jackie used to say - "Somebody has to be the Son-Of-A-Bitch"

Nailed it.

Tbone

12-29-2014, 08:34 PM

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 09:06 PM

We're holding our own right now. Dak is a Heisman contender, and Josh is a borderline Heisman contender. Chris Jones, Bear, McKinney, and Redmond all have/had the potential to leave for the NFL early not including Dak and Josh. And that doesn't even include guys like Beniquez Brown, Calhoun, Clausell and etc. that are going to get a shot at in the NFL after four years.

If we can:

Land 12-15 of the top players in Mississippi (we're coming close to that currently- and Coach O might be able to land the 2-3 that we miss)
Land 5 of the top players from Memphis
Land 2-3 guys from NOLA that LSU doesn't have room for
Round it out with Dan's Diamonds in the rough as space allows

I could live with that. And with Coach O, Hughes, Knox, Gonzales, and Deshea- the above is very doable.

My point was that it is a foolish concept that we are going to have better talent than everybody else in the league. That is the premise of the it's the Jimmy's & Joe's not X's & O's that win. The best talent and COACHING is in the SEC. That's why the league is dominate. And we are close to the level of Bama or others in play on the field this year but that was not just pure talent. About half the talent you listed were either undervalued or coached up. Or both. We cannot afford to slack off on the X's & O's even to help get better talent. I'm all for talent but we better have the coaching to back it up or we will get beat soundly in the SEC west. Because everybody has the Jimmy's & Joe's.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 09:13 PM

I think more elite talent in certain defensive positions would overcome some defensive coaching. In other words I feel Coach O is definitely worth the risk to run our D even with no proven track record doing so.

No it won't, because the rest of the league has talent and coaching. We cannot play in this league with just the thought process that we can afford less coaching because we are getting better talent. To use the man that many believe would be a home run hire, look at the talent he brought in at UM and then look at their play on the field. He had NFL talent on the team, great recruiter, they didn't win anything, weak coaching.

Now is he better now or does Mullen believe he is the right man for the job, I don't know. And if Mullen thinks this is the right guy, fine I'll support him. I believe in the job Mullen is doing. But from the outside I see nothing that would think he is a great DC hire. And we don't know the whole plan so it may make more sense later.

Tbone

12-29-2014, 09:20 PM

You seem like you just want to argue. You aren't seeing my point whatsoever, and I don't feel like debating an unknown at this point.

cheewgumm

12-29-2014, 09:21 PM

Per CFB matrix, mullen's wins 93% of the time when he has more " talent". So anybody that helps bring more talent here is a plus to me.

Not to mention he may be a great DC. We'll see.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 09:26 PM

You seem like you just want argue. You aren't seeing my point whatsoever, and I don't feel like debating an unknown at this point.

I understand your point. And in some leagues it holds true. But for us, there is no way we are going to out talent our competition. We have to have the coaching as well. And I could say you are refusing to see that point as well. Goes both ways.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 09:30 PM

Per CFB matrix, mullen's wins 93% of the time when he has more " talent". So anybody that helps bring more talent here is a plus to me.

Not to mention he may be a great DC. We'll see.

Do you think that we are going to have more talent than the rest of the SEC west on a consistent basis? At best, the very best we will do is have comparable talent. The league is too deep. So that stat doesn't hold up against comparable or more talent that we play against in our division.

msstate7

12-29-2014, 09:32 PM

Think Rex Ryan will get an interview?**

Tbone

12-29-2014, 09:33 PM

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 09:45 PM

I didn't say I would forgo solid coaching to just get more talent. I feel better athletes allow some breathing room for coaching.

The opportunity cost for taking O would be unknown X's and O's but almost certainly a talent upgrade. In my opinion this is the type of risk a Mississippi State takes to make up some ground in the Sec West.

If he was being debated just as a position coach, then I would agree with hiring him for that aspect. Even some sort of co-DC position with someone who has called defenses before. Maybe it eases him into the position down the road. But at this point, the unknown X & O aspect is way too risky as a DC. You don't go for a recruiter as a coordinator. The coordinator is X & O first. A good recruiter is just a bonus but in the overall scheme almost irrelevant. If he is not a good coordinator you have guaranteed yourself a below average season. No matter how good your talent is.

codeDawg

12-29-2014, 09:47 PM

I think everybody needs to chill the frick out. We're about get a guy that multiple analysts say is among the top 10 recruiters in the country. On top of that he has specific experience in MS and LA, the places we recruit the most, and has a vendetta out against our primary competition in that area. Past that, he has been around defense long enough to be able to field a competent one and he will have help.

The PROGRAM is at a point where coaching across the board is stable enough to take a risk on an elite recruiter, and I don't think O is much of a coaching risk. We are going to be fine schematically, and we are about to have a huge upgrade in talent across the board.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:05 PM

Please tell me how being around good defenses qualifies him to be a coordinator? There have been literally thousands of great coaches, who coached on great defenses, and either were not good enough to coordinate or flopped when they got the chance. He may be great and Mullen has a much better perspective than we do. But there is nothing in his career that points to him being even an average coordinator. From the outside the only thing we can look at is his time at UM. And that was not good. Again, if it is him, I will support Mullen's decision and hope he is ready. Because we can't afford a big step back next year because of lack of coaching.

thunderclap

12-29-2014, 10:13 PM

Who here really believes Mullen is gonna hire O if he's not absolutely convinced the guy can be an SEC DC? Geez.

Coach34

12-29-2014, 10:15 PM

Who here really believes Mullen is gonna hire O if he's not absolutely convinced the guy can be an SEC DC? Geez.

exactly...not sure why people would think otherwise

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:20 PM

exactly...not sure why people would think otherwise

Torbush and Wilson. He has done better recently but don't act that people still don't question Hevasy or Sallach as coaches even now.

ETA. Not that I think we should rid of anyone on staff right now but many people think we should.

codeDawg

12-29-2014, 10:24 PM

But there is nothing in his career that points to him being even an average coordinator.

An average coordinator that can bring elite talent to this team is more valuable than a great X&O guy at this point. We have a veteran coaching staff that can handle schematics. This team lacks the top end talent that only a guy like O can bring.

codeDawg

12-29-2014, 10:26 PM

exactly...not sure why people would think otherwise

Some people like to freak out and argue for the sake of freaking out and arguing.

engie

12-29-2014, 10:31 PM

An average coordinator that can bring elite talent to this team is more valuable than a great X&O guy at this point. We have a veteran coaching staff that can handle schematics. This team lacks the top end talent that only a guy like O can bring.

If only we could have had 2 early round corners and a couple of drafted DL and LBs under Chris Wilson**

engie

12-29-2014, 10:32 PM

Some people like to freak out and argue for the sake of freaking out and arguing.

Some people simply refuse to eat a hamburger and call it kobe beef.

What has O done again? Someone fill out his defensive coordinator resume for me....

Coach34

12-29-2014, 10:32 PM

Torbush and Wilson. He has done better recently but don't act that people still don't question Hevasy or Sallach as coaches even now.

anybody questioning Hevesy at this point is a moron

engie

12-29-2014, 10:34 PM

Who here really believes Mullen is gonna hire O if he's not absolutely convinced the guy can be an SEC DC? Geez.

After hitting 50/50 on DCs? And apparently cutting their legs from under them in year 2?

There's PLENTY to question in Mullen's handling of our defense...

Coach34

12-29-2014, 10:34 PM

and hell- for the grief Sallach gets- our TE's appear to be coached very well

engie

12-29-2014, 10:35 PM

and hell- for the grief Sallach gets- our TE's appear to be coached very well

He's had really 2 TEs over his whole career. We'll see what he's worth next year if he's still on the field...

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:37 PM

An average coordinator that can bring elite talent to this team is more valuable than a great X&O guy at this point. We have a veteran coaching staff that can handle schematics. This team lacks the top end talent that only a guy like O can bring.

Really? Name one. Just one coordinator that is considered an average X & O coach but great recruiter that would be someone you would want to be our DC. Because there are a bunch of terrible recruiters who are great X & O coaches that do great jobs. They can be both but not just a recruiter.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:40 PM

and hell- for the grief Sallach gets- our TE's appear to be coached very well

It doesn't stop people questioning either him or Hevesey. How many times have people wanted them gone? And I am definitely with you on Hevesey and think he does better than he gets credit for in recruiting.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 10:44 PM

My point was that it is a foolish concept that we are going to have better talent than everybody else in the league. That is the premise of the it's the Jimmy's & Joe's not X's & O's that win. The best talent and COACHING is in the SEC. That's why the league is dominate. And we are close to the level of Bama or others in play on the field this year but that was not just pure talent. About half the talent you listed were either undervalued or coached up. Or both. We cannot afford to slack off on the X's & O's even to help get better talent. I'm all for talent but we better have the coaching to back it up or we will get beat soundly in the SEC west. Because everybody has the Jimmy's & Joe's.

It's not Dan's fault that scout and 247 can't evaluate talent- and thus the perceived "we have to coach everyone up" meme. Imagine what Dan could do with guys that are considered "elite" talent? We're not going to slack off on X's and O's any more than we did in the Egg Bowl, I assure you of that. And even with Collins lack of creativity, our 1A's were probably by themselves the best defense in the SEC- but they were severely brought down by the 1B's.

And don't assume we can't bring in elite talent to MSU. Just like many assumed we would never be ranked number one in football "because we are MSU". If anyone can bring elite talent in to MSU, it's Coach O, and Coach O with Tony Hughes in pretty much unfair in Mississippi.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 10:46 PM

Torbush and Wilson. He has done better recently but don't act that people still don't question Hevasy or Sallach as coaches even now.

ETA. Not that I think we should rid of anyone on staff right now but many people think we should.

Torbush was washed up, and that was Dan's first year. Making a conservative hire wasn't the worst idea in the world. And with Chris, he was the Co-DC already. What message would have been sent if he hired someone else instead of him after Manny left? That might be why we don't see Co-DC's again.

engie

12-29-2014, 10:49 PM

And don't assume we can't bring in elite talent to MSU. Just like many assumed we would never be ranked number one in football "because we are MSU". If anyone can bring elite talent in to MSU, it's Coach O, and Coach O with Tony Hughes in pretty much unfair in Mississippi.

Which, at best, puts us 3 steps behind LSU in defensive talent...

Who is John Chavis responsible for recruiting these days?

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 10:53 PM

exactly...not sure why people would think otherwise

I think a lot of has to be because Coach O was at Ole Miss. It would be interesting to see what people would say had he not had that on his resume at this point.

Maybe they're worried about having to stand on a chair and rip their shirt off at the Summer Extravaganza?

Thing about it is, you look at a guy like Lane Kiffen who Alabama hired and everyone questioned it and thought Saban was crazy and it would never work. And now Kiffen has won the Broyle's Award. The reason people didn't think it would work is because of the perception that the media shapes about coaches. We all have an image of Kiffen as being an arrogant spoiled brat, and therefore people don't "like" him and bash him at every turn.

Coach O is similar in that people see him with his Cajun accent and how he acted at Ole Miss and assume that's what we're going to get at MSU. But the thing is, Coach O is going to be held in check by Dan since Dan is the head coach- much like Saban keeps Kiffen in check at Alabama.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:53 PM

Torbush was washed up, and that was Dan's first year. Making a conservative hire wasn't the worst idea in the world. And with Chris, he was the Co-DC already. What message would have been sent if he hired someone else instead of him after Manny left? That might be why we don't see Co-DC's again.

The point is we have every reason to question the DC hire because of his previous hires. The post was we have no reason to question it eventhough it's evident he has missed before and people question the staff all the time. Which I don't always agree with. Especially with Hevesey.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 10:57 PM

Which, at best, puts us 3 steps behind LSU in defensive talent...

Who is John Chavis responsible for recruiting these days?

LSU is very talented but, I think most of them are very raw and they are not as well developed as our guys in the long run. Chavis is not a great recruiter and he is more of an X and O's guy, but again you look at someone like Lane Kiffen at Alabama and he is considered to be a good play caller/play designer and also a good recruiter. So, it's possible to be a good coordinator and a good recruiter.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 10:59 PM

It's not Dan's fault that scout and 247 can't evaluate talent- and thus the perceived "we have to coach everyone up" meme. Imagine what Dan could do with guys that are considered "elite" talent? We're not going to slack off on X's and O's any more than we did in the Egg Bowl, I assure you of that. And even with Collins lack of creativity, our 1A's were probably by themselves the best defense in the SEC- but they were severely brought down by the 1B's.

And don't assume we can't bring in elite talent to MSU. Just like many assumed we would never be ranked number one in football "because we are MSU". If anyone can bring elite talent in to MSU, it's Coach O, and Coach O with Tony Hughes in pretty much unfair in Mississippi.

We will never be able to out talent the rest of the league. Bama right now is the only team that is in that position and it's not like it's by a large margin. You can say that the recruiting sites missed on players, and they have, but it's not every player. We have developed better than a lot of teams. That's coaching. We don't go 10-2 with average X & O's and just pure talent.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 11:02 PM

The point is we have every reason to question the DC hire because of his previous hires. The post was we have no reason to question it eventhough it's evident he has missed before and people question the staff all the time. Which I don't always agree with. Especially with Hevesey.

What we should have been questioning is if it was a good idea to have Co-DC's or not. I agree that Hevesey is a good coach- I've defended him many times. The rest of Dan's hire on both sides of the ball have been pretty good:

Brian Johnson, Hevesey, Knox, Brewster and then Gonzalez, Wilson was a good d-line coach and then replaced him with Turner, Manny and then replaced him with Geoff, Hughes, and then replaced Melvin with Townsend. Not a lot of complete misses there.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 11:02 PM

LSU is very talented but, I think most of them are very raw and they are not as well developed as our guys in the long run. Chavis is not a great recruiter and he is more of an X and O's guy, but again you look at someone like Lane Kiffen at Alabama and he is considered to be a good play caller/play designer and also a good recruiter. So, it's possible to be a good coordinator and a good recruiter.

Yes it is possible to have someone good at both. But you never, ever see just a great recruiter and average X & O guy develop a good defense.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:03 PM

We should then see Kiffin's inferiors as superior to him?

Inverse. Same staff. Partially, if not largely, responsible for getting him fired = his dad = ogre's boss. Jerry Jones should have then fired himself for hiring Monte afterwords. Tampa 2!

I'm confused -- what recruiting has Lane done for Bama? He's the #56 recruiter in the country right now. #6 on Bama's staff. He was hired for x's and o's. Not to be a crooter. Lane also had called offenses for 9 years prior to Saban hiring him.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:05 PM

LSU is very talented but, I think most of them are very raw and they are not as well developed as our guys in the long run. Chavis is not a great recruiter and he is more of an X and O's guy, but again you look at someone like Lane Kiffen at Alabama and he is considered to be a good play caller/play designer and also a good recruiter. So, it's possible to be a good coordinator and a good recruiter.

Sure, it is possible. Alot of guys do it. Ignoring that you are calling Lane a "good recruiter" while actually being one of the worst on Bama's staff this year...

What has Ogre done to show he can be a good defensive coordinator?

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 11:05 PM

What we should have been questioning is if it was a good idea to have Co-DC's or not. I agree that Hevesey is a good coach- I've defended him many times. The rest of Dan's hire on both sides of the ball have been pretty good:

Brian Johnson, Hevesey, Knox, Brewster and then Gonzalez, Wilson was a good d-line coach and then replaced him with Turner, Manny and then replaced him with Geoff, Hughes, and then replaced Melvin with Townsend. Not a lot of complete misses there.

I agree with that and said earlier that Mullen has hired better recently. There is just so little to point to that he will succeed that it makes it such a risky hire at this point for our program. If it's who Mullen wants, I will support it like I said.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 11:07 PM

We will never be able to out talent the rest of the league. Bama right now is the only team that is in that position and it's not like it's by a large margin. You can say that the recruiting sites missed on players, and they have, but it's not every player. We have developed better than a lot of teams. That's coaching. We don't go 10-2 with average X & O's and just pure talent.

That's my point. We have that in place already. If we get Orgeron, it will close the gap some more because he will bring in even more talent. Ole Miss can get elite talent and we can't? In Mississippi, Memphis, and NOLA? We can't recruit as well as Arkansas? What we have with Dan in the coaching department is what Ole Miss lacked when Orgeron was there as a staff as a whole. If you put Dan's development skills with Orgeron's recruiting- that's a scary combination. Especially since it means some of those guys that Coach O will get won't go to Ole Miss.

There's a reason why Ole Miss fans are scared of Coach O right now.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 11:12 PM

Sure, it is possible. Alot of guys do it. Ignoring that you are calling Lane a "good recruiter" while actually being one of the worst on Bama's staff this year...

What has Ogre done to show he can be a good defensive coordinator?

When Lane was at USC, he was considered one of their top recruiters.

Coach O claimed that he called the front half of USC's defense under Carroll and Pendergast. So, according to him he called their blitzes and stunts, etc. and Carroll called the coverage.

codeDawg

12-29-2014, 11:13 PM

Some people simply refuse to eat a hamburger and call it kobe beef.

What has O done again? Someone fill out his defensive coordinator resume for me....

I have no idea what you are rambling about. I refuse to have something mediocre and then say it's something good? Not following.

We're not bringing O here to be a great DC. We're bringing him in to change our success in recruiting blue chip prospects. We'll continue to get the diamonds in the rough, we need to add the top end talent with those to make the next step.

Talking to you is wrestling with a pig. That's an actual saying that you can Google.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:13 PM

I agree with that and said earlier that Mullen has hired better recently. There is just so little to point to that he will succeed that it makes it such a risky hire at this point for our program. If it's who Mullen wants, I will support it like I said.

Exactly. It may end up great. Just hugely risky, and something that I don't personally feel confidence in.

Did Dennis Erickson feel the confidence?
Did Rick Rhoades?
Did Paul Pasqualoni?
Did Paul Hackett?
Did Pete Carroll?
Did Ed himself after demoting himself in 07?
Did Sean Payton?
Did Lane Kiffin?
Did Lane Kiffin when he had to fire his dad?

engie

12-29-2014, 11:15 PM

When Lane was at USC, he was considered one of their top recruiters.

Coach O claimed that he called the front half of USC's defense under Carroll and Pendergast. So, according to him he called their blitzes and stunts, etc. and Carroll called the coverage.

Link?

Only time I saw this was under Monte -- when their defense was really, really bad by USC(or MSU) standards...

Coach34

12-29-2014, 11:16 PM

What has Ogre done to show he can be a good defensive coordinator?

What has any defensive coach done to show they can be a good DC until they actually do it?

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 11:16 PM

That's my point. We have that in place already. If we get Orgeron, it will close the gap some more because he will bring in even more talent. Ole Miss can get elite talent and we can't? In Mississippi, Memphis, and NOLA? We can't recruit as well as Arkansas? What we have with Dan in the coaching department is what Ole Miss lacked when Orgeron was there as a staff as a whole. If you put Dan's development skills with Orgeron's recruiting- that's a scary combination. Especially since it means some of those guys that Coach O will get won't go to Ole Miss.

There's a reason why Ole Miss fans are scared of Coach O right now.

But the talent and the development is wasted if your scheme is bad. And nobody can point to him having a good scheme. He had a ton of talent at UM that Nutt took them to the Cotton Bowls. Nutt didn't develop but he at least had better X & O's with the talent O brought in. But the only snap shot we have we can definitely see his scheme was not good. And talent will not overcome that. I hope he is much better and he is the right fit. Because there is a ton of upside if it works but the risk out weighs the upside. As a position coach, totally different thought process.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:18 PM

I have no idea what you are rambling about. I refuse to have something mediocre and then say it's something good? Not following.
Yes you are.

We're not bringing O here to be a great DC. We're bringing him in to change our success in recruiting blue chip prospects.
Then why does he need the term "defensive coordinator" by his name?

We'll continue to get the diamonds in the rough, we need to add the top end talent with those to make the next step.
Taking the next step starts with elite coaching. Not elite recruiting. At best, we'll rise to #7 or #8 in the SEC with Orgeron here. That ain't a nickel's worth of difference.

Talking to you is wrestling with a pig. That's an actual saying that you can Google.
Yep.

Mississippistatespirit.com

Really an elite program and elite history and all we need is a couple more 5*s!11!1 Glory right over the hill!!1!1 Got us a guy that's been directly associated with fewer top 30 defenses than Chris Wilson in 3x as long of career. We'll buy a couple 'croots and he'll fix it!1!1

engie

12-29-2014, 11:20 PM

What has any defensive coach done to show they can be a good DC until they actually do it?

They be a good DC to prove it. The SEC the damn "proving grounds" again? That might work if he was 30...

Chris Wilson's resume as DC >>>>>> Ed Orgeron's resume as DC

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 11:23 PM

What has any defensive coach done to show they can be a good DC until they actually do it?

True but you don't take the chance in this league. At least not at this point in our program. Dan's first year? Heck yeah I'd been fine with it. Even after Diaz left I wouldn't have much problem with that kind of hire. But not right now. But hey maybe it works. Odds tell me a good DC is not going to come from a DL coach with his type of coaching career. In fact I can't find a decent DC that would be considered similar to his career. That's a big concern.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:30 PM

247's top current recruiters.

OC #5(Sarkisian figurehead position).
DC #14(Saban figurehead position).
Co-DC #19(Kelly non-playcaller)

Mike Bobo @ #24(at UGA prior to his hire) was the highest rated actual playcaller. Next, I believe, is Jeremy Pruitt at #40.

But you gotta have an elite recruiter to call plays**

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 11:44 PM

Link?

Only time I saw this was under Monte -- when their defense was really, really bad by USC(or MSU) standards...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2iEgUwil1Q

Now, if Coach O is lying, I don't know- but that's what he claims.

Todd4State

12-29-2014, 11:46 PM

But the talent and the development is wasted if your scheme is bad. And nobody can point to him having a good scheme. He had a ton of talent at UM that Nutt took them to the Cotton Bowls. Nutt didn't develop but he at least had better X & O's with the talent O brought in. But the only snap shot we have we can definitely see his scheme was not good. And talent will not overcome that. I hope he is much better and he is the right fit. Because there is a ton of upside if it works but the risk out weighs the upside. As a position coach, totally different thought process.

Yeah- but he brought in that talent and that talent was in their freshman and sophomore years. He was a bad head coach- but that doesn't mean that he will be or would be a bad DC. Plus, Ole Miss's program was in shambles and by the time Coach O left they had turned their backs on him.

DudyDawg

12-29-2014, 11:49 PM

What has any defensive coach done to show they can be a good DC until they actually do it?

Prove yourself at a school that isn't coming off an orange bowl season and weeks at number one.

Really Clark?

12-29-2014, 11:54 PM

Yeah- but he brought in that talent and that talent was in their freshman and sophomore years. He was a bad head coach- but that doesn't mean that he will be or would be a bad DC. Plus, Ole Miss's program was in shambles and by the time Coach O left they had turned their backs on him.

Except he was also the DC at UM for the first two years. Then demoted himself. A big reason why I question that he can be a coordinator.

engie

12-29-2014, 11:57 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2iEgUwil1Q

Now, if Coach O is lying, I don't know- but that's what he claims.

Even there "handling the front end" doesn't = "calling defenses"...

And "calling the front end" doesn't = "great linebacker coach/DC"..

If we want to go to the Gary Patterson philosophy and split the calls up front from the rest of the defense and let Orgeron call the defensive line, GREAT. That's what I've been wanting all along(wanting the 4-2-5 vs the spread with 3 separate "calls" overall). In that case, we still have to hire a linebackers coach and "DC" to call the back 7...

Hardly the same thing as making him LB coach/DC and turning the defense over to him... which, even in that interview, he didn't claim to have a clue about...

RougeDawg

12-30-2014, 12:05 AM

If only we could have had 2 early round corners and a couple of drafted DL and LBs under Chris Wilson**

You saying Wilson was responsible for bringing in those talented guys? Wilson had most of those guys in position to fail with his shit schemes. Wilson was neither a X&O or recruiter guy. As usual, your post has no merit or substance behind it and are simply trying to make someone else look like an idiot.

And who gives a shit who we bring in as a DC. As long as Mullen keeps the reigns pulled on the defense, without a defensive background, we will continue to underperform on defense. I know some will use our defensive stats this year to argue my point, but to anyone who watched us this year knows we could have been much better on defense if Mullen had let Collins run the defense the way he wanted, and like we did against LSU and Auburn. dan obviously had his hands on the defensive game planning in the second half of the season. We shouldn't have given up the yardage we did this year, with our depth, experience, and talent, but we failed to bring pressure all year.

Todd4State

12-30-2014, 12:23 AM

Except he was also the DC at UM for the first two years. Then demoted himself. A big reason why I question that he can be a coordinator.

Not many coaches can handle being a coordinator and the head coach at the same time. The fact that he had the insight to demote himself is not a bad thing. We all know he won't be the head coach at MSU.

engie

12-30-2014, 12:38 AM

You saying Wilson was responsible for bringing in those talented guys?
Did I say that?

Wilson had most of those guys in position to fail with his shit schemes.
Exactly

Wilson was neither a X&O or recruiter guy.
Wilson was both an excellent recruiter -- and has a better DC resume than Orgeron. I dare you to prove otherwise.

As usual, your post has no merit or substance behind it and are simply trying to make someone else look like an idiot.
As usual, you call my post "trying to make someone else look like an idiot" -- while making yourself look like an idiot.

And who gives a shit who we bring in as a DC.
Yep. These 100 posts prove no one cares!1!1

As long as Mullen keeps the reigns pulled on the defense, without a defensive background, we will continue to underperform on defense.
So, Mullen is both our OC and DC in your opinion? Damn, he a busy son of a bitch.

I know some will use our defensive stats this year to argue my point, but to anyone who watched us this year knows we could have been much better on defense
Who is arguing that our defense's accomplishments were actually up to our talent level this year? NO ONE.

if Mullen had let Collins run the defense the way he wanted, and like we did against LSU and Auburn.
Or maybe, just like Chris Wilson -- Collins just wasn't the bad ass DC we hoped he would be after year 1.

Mullen has done ALOT worse than Collins -- so arguing that "it's Mullen's defense" seems pretty disingenuous. Do I think he meddles too much? Maybe - maybe not. Sure seemed to keep his ass out of Diaz's business...

dan obviously had his hands on the defensive game planning in the second half of the season.
So, when it was good -- it was Collins. When it was bad -- it was Dan? This is almost as bad as some of your conspiracy theories.

We shouldn't have given up the yardage we did this year, with our depth, experience, and talent, but we failed to bring pressure all year.
See -- this why I can't take you seriously. We were 2nd in the SEC in sacks/game and first in TFL per game. Pressure wasn't our problem.

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 12:38 AM

Not many coaches can handle being a coordinator and the head coach at the same time. The fact that he had the insight to demote himself is not a bad thing. We all know he won't be the head coach at MSU.

Look I get everybody that wants him believe that what he brings as a recruiter will out weigh any scheme problems he may have. And if we could point to a couple of good DC that are similar to him or if he had at least coordinated a couple of decent defenses I might could get on board. But there is no one comparable that has succeeded and what little we can go by from his career at best leaves us with big question marks. At worst he does the same as his previous stint at UM and that was not good. But we have numerous examples of guys being good to elite DC and terrible recruiters. That formula has to tell us a lot about the position. Hopefully, Mullen again makes a great hire. But on the surface he seems like the biggest risk as a DC for us at this point in time in this league.

engie

12-30-2014, 12:43 AM

Not many coaches can handle being a coordinator and the head coach at the same time.
Actually, most of them handle being a coordinator and head coach at the same time. Mullen does. Freeze does. Sumlin does. Patterson does. Saban does. Meyer does. Jimbo does. Need I keep going? How many true figureheads are there in the SEC? Miles, Richt, Pinkel maybe? who else?

The fact that he had the insight to demote himself is not a bad thing.
This would only be a good thing if either the defense had improved or if he had insight not to be the worst OM head coach in 70 years.

We all know he won't be the head coach at MSU.
No one is calling for him to be the head coach. They are calling for him to be the DC. A position he previously fired himself from.

cheewgumm

12-30-2014, 12:56 AM

When Mullen has better players he wins 93% of the time.

War Machine Dawg

12-30-2014, 01:38 AM

exactly...not sure why people would think otherwise

Some people like to freak out and argue for the sake of freaking out and arguing.

When it comes to O, Engine needs to take this advice to heart:

http://i.imgur.com/cP64a0C.gif

http://i.imgur.com/7KjhOvt.gif

War Machine Dawg

12-30-2014, 01:45 AM

They be a good DC to prove it. The SEC the damn "proving grounds" again? That might work if he was 30...

Chris Wilson's resume as DC >>>>>> Ed Orgeron's resume as DC

http://i.imgur.com/AJnQKF6.gif

Todd4State

12-30-2014, 03:03 AM

Actually, most of them handle being a coordinator and head coach at the same time. Mullen does. Freeze does. Sumlin does. Patterson does. Saban does. Meyer does. Jimbo does. Need I keep going? How many true figureheads are there in the SEC? Miles, Richt, Pinkel maybe? who else?

This would only be a good thing if either the defense had improved or if he had insight not to be the worst OM head coach in 70 years.

No one is calling for him to be the head coach. They are calling for him to be the DC. A position he previously fired himself from.

Some head coaches are able to handle both and some can't. Saban also has Smart and Freeze has Werner to help them out. If a coach can't do both, it's not an indictment against them as a coordinator. Orgeron wouldn't have known that he couldn't do both until he actually became a head coach. Heck, Dan didn't know either and that's why we had Les Koenning around until Dan realized that he could.

Dawgowar

12-30-2014, 07:09 AM

If only we could have had 2 early round corners and a couple of drafted DL and LBs under Chris Wilson**

Yeah, even then Wilson would have had them count "One Mississippi, two Mississippi, where is the ball..." before rushing the backfield pass or run.

engie

12-30-2014, 10:37 AM

http://i.imgur.com/AJnQKF6.gif

Yes. Chris Wilson playcalled a top 20 defense.

Give me evidence of Ogre doing the same in 2.5x as long a career?

Wilson resume as DC > Ogre's resume as DC.

The defense that got Chris Wilson fired = 5 of the last 7 defenses Ogre has been associated with.

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 10:55 AM

When Mullen has better players he wins 93% of the time.

Without context and comparing to other coaches that stat means nothing. You are giving us no reference for that stat. I would think most good coaches have a high percentage of wins when they have more talent than their opponents. But by using this stat you are trying to infer that all Dan needs is to have better talent than everyone else in the SEC west. Do you honestly think that will happen? That his one hire will move us from averaging the 6th best in talent rankings to consistently 1st. And I know that the recruiting rankings are skewed but you used this stat from college football matrix who is using the average of all of the recruiting sites. So in this context, it is relevant. Dan is very good at winning the games he is suppose to, that is all that stat means. We are recruiting better and hope the trend continues, and he can help move that needle more I'm sure. But we will not ever be in a position to out talent the rest of the west. At least no time soon. And we are in a precarious point in our program. We need to continue to build on this year and the major cog that got us to this position is good X's & O's. That is what is unknown with Coach O and makes this a risky hire for the DC position.

cheewgumm

12-30-2014, 11:22 AM

Is it better to have better players or better to have worse players?

I thought this was a no brainer.

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 11:44 AM

Is it better to have better players or better to have worse players?

I thought this was a no brainer.

It's better to have a great X & O coach as your DC. Not a good recruiter. That is what is being debated. Not some generic statement about talent. Of course you want the best talent you can get. But you cannot sacrifice scheme and X & O's at the coordinator position to get it. You have other positions on staff that you can sacrifice some coaching for being a great recruiter. And it's been proven over and over again that if you have too choose, you choose a great X & O guy for a coordinator position. Give me some names of the reverse, average X & O guy but great recruiter, that have turned in good defenses.

engie

12-30-2014, 11:50 AM

Is it better to have better players or better to have worse players?

I thought this was a no brainer.

Florida - 5th most talented team in country
Texas - t8th
USC - t8th
Notre Dame - 10th
Oklahoma - 11th
Michigan - 12th
Tennessee - 15th
South Carolina - 16th
Miami - 17th

All it takes is players to win**

http://cfbmatrix.com/talent-rankings-2014/

We're not talking about our recruiting coordinator position here...

Dawg496

12-30-2014, 11:50 AM

I think our defensive staff as a whole, including O if it were to happen, would have enough expertise and experience to effectively game plan.

engie

12-30-2014, 11:55 AM

I think our defensive staff as a whole, including O if it were to happen, would have enough expertise and experience to effectively game plan.

Gameplanning and calling plays are not the same thing. Gameplanning is setting up to what you think a team will do with all the time in the world to prepare depending on how far in advance you study film. Playcalling is setting up to what they are actually doing on the fly 10 seconds at a time. Unless a team is cocky about "just being better than you" -- they generally aren't going to do "exactly what you expect them to". Adjusting to this on the fly is what separates elite defensive coordinators(or successful defensive coordinators period) from position coaches.

I'm going to try to let this go now and just wait and see what happens. It's obvious that neither "side" of this discussion is convincing the other either way. Logic tells me there's more to the story than just hiring O as DC/LB coach. We'll see if that ends up being true or not...

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 11:57 AM

I think our defensive staff as a whole, including O if it were to happen, would have enough expertise and experience to effectively game plan.

But you have no way to justify this statement. It may be true but they also may be just like the hundreds and hundreds of other coaches in football. Great coaches but not great at game planning or adjusting during games. Some people just have a knack for it and it is somewhat an art and skill.

blacklistedbully

12-30-2014, 12:03 PM

Who here really believes Mullen is gonna hire O if he's not absolutely convinced the guy can be an SEC DC? Geez.

Apparently he thought Torbush and Chris Wilson was SEC-caliber DC's too. Just sayin'.

I'm with Really Clark on this one. If Mullen goes for O, I'll support him until O shows us what he can do in the position. I'll be really excited about the recruiting possibilities, but nervous about the X's & O's. Also totally agree with RC on the point that, there is NO WAY we are going to have better recruits than Bama, LSU, Auburn, and maybe even TAMU, so if it's a case of sacrificing X's & O's, that's a real problem, IMO. We aren't going to out-Jimmy & Joe them, and given that, it's crazy to think we can compete regularly in the West with that strategy. At best, that might improve our position versus TSUN and perhaps Arky, but more likely in the sense we hurt their recruiting, making them weaker.

But we are way past the point where the goal is to be better than TSUN. Our goal is to legitimately compete for the SEC West on a routine basis. When we have done that, it's more because we have found under-valued kids within driving distance who have great work-ethic and a willingness to work hard, bide-their-time & learn. They've been willing to bust their guts from the get-go, even knowing they likely won't see the field for some time, giving our staff the chance to develop them. You don't see that in the 5-stars that go to TSUN. The 5-stars that also have the ethic are going to the Bama's & USCw's of the world, where they know they will be surrounded by elite talent, great coaching and will have a very high probability of competing for a NC, and getting a shot at the NFL.

In my dream scenario, we'd get O as a Co-DC, paired with a legit X's & O's guy, much like USCw had O & Pendergast.

On a side note, I do hope we manage to keep Coach Hughes happy in this whole process. Really love that guy, and would hate to see him get poached from us due to a lack of love, etc.

ETA - AS far as O's "Wild boys" thing being a learning experience from TSUN, or something similar, O was doing the same thing at UT.

Dawgowar

12-30-2014, 12:15 PM

I am more curious about other potential additions and subtractions. I tend to think more movement is coming given Mullen has to responsibly address the LB position. Although, half-seriously, if I could just give the 'backers the 'Remember The Titans' speech about not gaining an inch each game and instead hire a real full-time ST guy, I would almost have to consider that a better use of position assignments.

If O is coming we need to send him to Central and South America first and get some damn kickers.

"Hola."

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"Si, 50-60 yards. loLoYaw?"

"Yaw. El sprechen zie Maroon Yawlo?"

"Los WTF Tu say? Sounds bueno though. Yolololoyoyaw"

cheewgumm

12-30-2014, 12:24 PM

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 12:36 PM

You are trying to confuse the debate. It hasn't been about talent. It's about a defensive coordinator. It is absolutely proven that at the coordinator position you do NOT have to be a recruiter. But you do need be a good X & O guy. That's not some message board opinion. That is what the profile of a good coordinator looks like. All of that has nothing to do with recruiting talent. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. But you have other staff positions to take care of the recruiting.

codeDawg

12-30-2014, 12:48 PM

blacklistedbully

12-30-2014, 01:03 PM

To win:

1) you need great players

If there is anything that is "proven", this is it. I'd look it up and show stats, but it's so self evident, there is no need. If I get to choose between someone who can definitely recruit and increase our talent level vs someone who cant, but a bunch of message board folks think is a great X and O guy, I'll take the proven recruiter.

There are no guarantees either way. O may not improve our recruiting at all, and may be mediocre at designing a defense. Or, the "great" X and O guy may not make a dimes worth of difference and our talent may suffer.

If we don't have talent, we are gonna suck. I don't care if Bill Walsh is calling plays.

Nobody is saying we can do it without talent. We are saying we can't approach this the same way Bama, LSU, Auburn, etc can. We need to continue to get talent that is "under-the-radar" and underdeveloped, but eager to work. It is a strength of our state that we have exactly this kind of talent playing in relative obscurity. But it requires the kind of X's & O's coaching that can, in fact develop it.

You can;t look at this in a vacuum. The SEC is different from the rest of the nation in the way we have several teams that will always have superior talent and great coaching. Mississippi is different from the rest of the SEC in that our athlete's, while terrific, seem to be less developed than other states. The Mississippi schools are different in that we can't out-recruit the SEC blue-bloods on OOS prospects unless we out-spend (we can't on an extended basis) or take the one's with "issues" that keep them from getting the blue-blood offers (the TSUN approach).

Part of what makes our job a good one for Mullen is the fact that he can & does stay in-state for much of his recruiting. Much less of a pain-in-the-ass than having to board jets all the time. But I think he does realize this means we need to be better at finding, evaluating & developing those in-state guys. We seem to do it well, and it's lead to success so far.

Taking the approach that it's OK to sacrifice some of our current recipe for success in favor of much better recruiting seems like little more than trying to get closer to the same approach the blue-bloods take. We have far too many disadvantages versus them in that kind of "warfare". We can't out-Bama Bama, or out-Auburn Auburn, etc. We have to take a different approach, kind of like the Oakland A's did in baseball. It's not that it's a lessor strategy, just a strategy that better suits our strengths & weaknesses.

In a sense, it's kind of like the military academies running triple-option. There is a reason very few teams run it anymore, but there is also a reason they do. For them and their circumstances, it's the best shot they have at being competitive.

cheewgumm

12-30-2014, 01:40 PM

Nobody is saying we can do it without talent. We are saying we can't approach this the same way Bama, LSU, Auburn, etc can. We need to continue to get talent that is "under-the-radar" and underdeveloped, but eager to work. It is a strength of our state that we have exactly this kind of talent playing in relative obscurity. But it requires the kind of X's & O's coaching that can, in fact develop it.

You can;t look at this in a vacuum. The SEC is different from the rest of the nation in the way we have several teams that will always have superior talent and great coaching. Mississippi is different from the rest of the SEC in that our athlete's, while terrific, seem to be less developed than other states. The Mississippi schools are different in that we can't out-recruit the SEC blue-bloods on OOS prospects unless we out-spend (we can't on an extended basis) or take the one's with "issues" that keep them from getting the blue-blood offers (the TSUN approach).

Part of what makes our job a good one for Mullen is the fact that he can & does stay in-state for much of his recruiting. Much less of a pain-in-the-ass than having to board jets all the time. But I think he does realize this means we need to be better at finding, evaluating & developing those in-state guys. We seem to do it well, and it's lead to success so far.

Taking the approach that it's OK to sacrifice some of our current recipe for success in favor of much better recruiting seems like little more than trying to get closer to the same approach the blue-bloods take. We have far too many disadvantages versus them in that kind of "warfare". We can't out-Bama Bama, or out-Auburn Auburn, etc. We have to take a different approach, kind of like the Oakland A's did in baseball. It's not that it's a lessor strategy, just a strategy that better suits our strengths & weaknesses.

In a sense, it's kind of like the military academies running triple-option. There is a reason very few teams run it anymore, but there is also a reason they do. For them and their circumstances, it's the best shot they have at being competitive.

I don't think it has to be either/ or.

We have to improve our talent. You can still find hidden gems. They are not mutually exclusive.

I don't see upgrading our talent as sacrificing our current approach. I don't think our last 4 DCs were great X and O guys. Some were good, some were not. Was Manny good? Depends on who you ask. My boss is a Texas alum and season ticket holder. He doesn't think Manny is good. Was C Wilson good? I'd argue no. Was Collins good? I think he was ok, but we did give up a lot of yards. It depends on how you look at it. Look at Ole Miss. Is their DC great? I'd argue its the talent that has made them a good D. Is Kirby Smart good? I'd argue its talent that makes them good.

I also don't think its a foregone conclusion that O is gonna suck at DC. He has a lot of experience which is a good thing, not a bad thing. I am in the "it's worth it to take the chance" camp.

NCDawg

12-30-2014, 01:41 PM

Okay, guys. We get it. Engie and Clark want a great XO guy. The rest of us want to take a chance on an elite recruiter. It's debatable if O can field a decent defense, but most of us think it's worth the risk. I'm not sure we need seven more pages of the same emotional arguments.

Absolutely. I agree we need to take a chance on an elite recruiter, such as Orgeron, and it is definitely worth the risk. I have no doubt he will be able to field a great defense.

Really Clark?

12-30-2014, 01:53 PM

Absolutely. I agree we need to take a chance on an elite recruiter, such as Orgeron, and it is definitely worth the risk. I have no doubt he will be able to field a great defense.

What, pray tell, leaves you with no doubt that he will field a great defense? What can you point to in his career or of someone of his similar caliber that has succeeded? At least a majority of the other posters admit that it's a risk but they are willing to take it. I can understand that point of view. You say the same thing just a sentence before. If it's a risk then you have to have doubts he can get it done. In back to back sentences you went from he is a risk but worth it, to you have no doubt he will succeed. Which is it?

codeDawg

12-30-2014, 01:59 PM

NCDawg

12-30-2014, 02:06 PM

What, pray tell, leaves you with no doubt that he will field a great defense? What can you point to in his career or of someone of his similar caliber that has succeeded? At least a majority of the other posters admit that it's a risk but they are willing to take it. I can understand that point of view. You say the same thing just a sentence before. If it's a risk then you have to have doubts he can get it done. In back to back sentences you went from he is a risk but worth it, to you have no doubt he will succeed. Which is it?

Really Clark? You made your point-we don't know whether or not Orgeron can succeed at DC because he apparently has never been one. But, we think he is worth the risk. I personally think he can succeed, but he may not, and you can then say "I told you so". Of course, this all may be a moot point because someone else may be chosen as DC. Someone you hopefully will approve of.