watching Manny's defense on ESPN...

[HoopsDawg]

I do love and miss all of his pre-snap movement. It's very confusing to the offense and has already forced 2 delay of game penalties. Also, took his best pass rusher and he is moving him from left to right. He already has 2 sacks from different sides of the line.

They are no. 1 in the country in forced turnovers. 7th in tackles for a loss.

[NCDawg]

I wouldn't be disappointed with either Diaz or Orgeron as DC.

[spudd21]

Alot of bend don't break though. Watched some during lunch break illini moved the ball on the edges at will but hit a wall at the red zone.

[TrapGame]

Manny is a good DC. I'd take him back.

[FlabLoser]

Agree.

His D isn't JLD crazy, but they give confusing looks and bring occasional pressure in surprising ways. They also design plays to open gaps for blitzers.

It was frustrating to watch a lot of Collins' blitzes running straight into a wall.

I'd have Mad Manny back. Wouldn't hold Texas against him.

[HoopsDawg]

Agree.

It was frustrating to watch a lot of Collins' blitzes running straight into a wall.



Amen to that.

[TrapGame]

Manny is showing O'Tool no mercy. Good grief.

[starkvegasdawg]

I don't care of we hire the meth head begging for money at the convenience store so long as he kills the 1B strategy.

[Dawgfan77]

Not sure why there is so much love for Diaz on this board. He did Mullen and MSU no favors when he was here. He and his wife hated Starkville. He burned some bridges when he left. I would be very surprised if he came back under Mullen.

[BulldogDX55]

Not sure why there is so much love for Diaz on this board. He did Mullen and MSU no favors when he was here. He and his wife hated Starkville. He burned some bridges when he left. I would be very surprised if he came back under Mullen.

If Louisville can take Petrino back, we can take Diaz. A good coach is a good coach.

[Political Hack]

Illinois is just as bad as the rest of the Big10.

[Johnson85]

Why does everybody think that the guy that flamed out at ut will be successful long term in the sec. He did well at MSU for a year, but e now know that defense was ridiculously talented.

[gravedigger]

A good coach doesnt perform as poorly as he did at texas

Mullen isnt likely to hire him back.

[Irondawg]

It's still confusing to me how he was so bad at Texas. Maybe his d just doesn't match up well against spread passing teams?

[msstate7]

Why does everybody think that the guy that flamed out at ut will be successful long term in the sec. He did well at MSU for a year, but e now know that defense was ridiculously talented.

Not that I think we should hire manny, but by that reasoning Ohio state shouldn't have hired urban meyer considering he flamed out at florida

[Political Hack]

his defense looks dog tired right now. Illinois may have just set the tone for the rest of the game.

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

Not sure why there is so much love for Diaz on this board. He did Mullen and MSU no favors when he was here. He and his wife hated Starkville. He burned some bridges when he left. I would be very surprised if he came back under Mullen.

Agree. First, I don't Mullen's ego would let him come back. Second, I don't think Miami Manny wants to come back. My wife was more upset about Manny leaving than I was. He saw us as a mere stepping stone to a name program in a bigger city. Personnaly, I hope he remains a few more years enjoying the bright lights of Ruston and the outstanding football that is CUSA.

[Maroonthirteen]

I wonder how Manny and Mrs Diaz like Ruston? Hahahaha!

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

Illinois is just as bad as the rest of the Big10.

Do we really want a guy that can't stop Illinois?

[FISHDAWG]

It's still confusing to me how he was so bad at Texas. Maybe his d just doesn't match up well against spread passing teams?

half of the problem was that anemic offense at UT ... the man took a raise to 750k (from approx 250k here) ..... who here would turn down a half million dollar a year raise ?

[msstate7]

Do we really want a guy that can't stop Illinois?

Well he's going against Illinois with cusa talent

[gravedigger]

half of the problem was that anemic offense at UT ... the man took a raise to 750k (from approx 250k here) ..... who here would turn down a half million dollar a year raise ?

I must be missing something. Were we discussing why he left, or how he performed when he did?

[Barkman Turner Overdrive]

Well he's going against Illinois with cusa talent

The same Illinois with a loss to Purdue.

[maroonmania]

Agree. First, I don't Mullen's ego would let him come back. Second, I don't think Miami Manny wants to come back. My wife was more upset about Manny leaving than I was. He saw us as a mere stepping stone to a name program in a bigger city. Personnaly, I hope he remains a few more years enjoying the bright lights of Ruston and the outstanding football that is CUSA.

Don't know that Diaz would be my first choice but I would think his failed stint at UT and having to take the job at a CUSA school in Ruston, LA may have humbled him a bit.

[FlabLoser]

The blitzes have looked good. The tackling has been bad.

Is bad tackling the fault of the DC or the position coaches?

[FISHDAWG]

well looks like a few are holding it against him for leaving and a few aren't satisfied with the way he performed at UT ... so yes, you are missing something

[Dawgfan77]

Don't know that Diaz would be my first choice but I would think his failed stint at UT and having to take the job at a CUSA school in Ruston, LA may have humbled him a bit.
May have humbled him but not the mrs.

[Bothrops]

Our talent on defense in 2010 was superior to the Texas boys Manny worked with. Didn't he mention that himself once? But the bend don't break defense is inadequate in the SEC. I don't want us to be the ones to prove that with the offenses we're going to be facing in the future.

There are other things to consider, but honestly idk if I'd hire him back. Just don't know.

[MabenMaroon]

Trying to remember, but wasn't poor tackling a big problem when he was here at MSU? I also seem to remember that the problem followed him to tu. Can't remember exactly, but it seemed to be a big time message board fodder at the time.

[bluelightstar]

Trying to remember, but wasn't poor tackling a big problem when he was here at MSU? I also seem to remember that the problem followed him to tu. Can't remember exactly, but it seemed to be a big time message board fodder at the time.

We had a missed tackles problem in our loss to Alabama, but that was really the only time that stands out to me off quick memory.

[engie]

The pre-snap eye candy is the one thing I really miss about Manny...

Even when we were dropping 8, it seemed like we were bringing the house in the presnap...

[maroonmania]

Our talent on defense in 2010 was superior to the Texas boys Manny worked with. Didn't he mention that himself once? But the bend don't break defense is inadequate in the SEC. I don't want us to be the ones to prove that with the offenses we're going to be facing in the future.

There are other things to consider, but honestly idk if I'd hire him back. Just don't know.

My word if there was ever a bend but don't break philosophy it was what we were doing under Collins. 80th in total defense while Top 20 in scoring defense. That's the definition of bend but don't break. I don't remember Manny's defenses being that way. He was only here one year but seemed to be more aggressive. Thought I heard them say today that LT leads the nation in defensive points.

[preachermatt83]

Agree.

His D isn't JLD crazy, but they give confusing looks and bring occasional pressure in surprising ways. They also design plays to open gaps for blitzers.

It was frustrating to watch a lot of Collins' blitzes running straight into a wall.

I'd have Mad Manny back. Wouldn't hold Texas against him.

AMEN!!!!

[preachermatt83]

half of the problem was that anemic offense at UT ... the man took a raise to 750k (from approx 250k here) ..... who here would turn down a half million dollar a year raise ?

nailed it! I want Coach O, Manny , or Shannon... in that order

[engie]

nailed it! I want Coach O, Manny , or Shannon... in that order

You want the guy that's called a single top 30 defense, followed by the guy that's called 2 top 25 defenses, followed by the guy that in a decade and a half as a coordinator has never been associated with a defense out of the top 35, along with about 8 top 10 defenses as a DC?

That's almost like saying you prefer Tyrone Nix over Geoff Collins over Gary Patterson... Only Tyrone has actually called more top 25 defenses than Orgeron has...

[Todd4State]

Texas was a complete dumpster fire when Manny was there. That's a LOT more about Mack Brown than it was about Manny.

And there's a very simple solution if he doesn't like living in Starkville- buy a small house or apartment in Starkville for the football season. Buy a house in Jackson, Memphis, Birmingham, hell- New Orleans for the offseason. Saban doesn't live in Tuscaloosa all year long.

[preachermatt83]

You want the guy that's called a single top 30 defense, followed by the guy that's called 2 top 25 defenses, followed by the guy that in a decade and a half as a coordinator has never been associated with a defense out of the top 35, along with about 8 top 10 defenses as a DC?

That's almost like saying you prefer Tyrone Nix over Geoff Collins over Gary Patterson... Only Tyrone has actually called more top 25 defenses than Orgeron has...

Stats are not everything. We were 947948th in pass defense this year... Does that mean Deshea and and Hughes are that bad? Having said that I would be satisfied with any of the 3 I mentioned I just prefer Coach O bc of his HC experience.

[engie]

Having said that I would be satisfied with any of the 3 I mentioned I just prefer Coach O bc of his HC experience.
You liked his HC experience at OM and half a year at USC over Shannon's 4 years at Miami?

We aren't hiring a head coach -- we're hiring a defensive coordinator and linebackers coach. In this capacity, Shannon's worst career defense is better than Ogre's best...

During Shannon's six years as UM's defensive coordinator, his defenses ranked as follows in total defense nationally:
2001 – 6th
2002 – 7th
2003 – 2nd
2004 – 28th
2005 – 4th
2006 – 7th

[Political Hack]

You liked his HC experience at OM over Shannon's at Miami?

wasn't he interim HC at USC too?

[preachermatt83]

You liked his HC experience at OM over Shannon's at Miami?

I like Shannon's as well but the program did decline some under his leadership. He has yet to redeem himself as a HC... O has. Again, both are homeruns to me, I just prefer O and was inspired by the way the USC team played for him.

[engie]

wasn't he interim HC at USC too?

half a year...

with a defense he didn't call...

[engie]

I like Shannon's as well but the program did decline some under his leadership. He has yet to redeem himself as a HC... O has. Again, both are homeruns to me, I just prefer O and was inspired by the way the USC team played for him.

Did it? When Spurrier beats Golden in the bowl game(?tomorrow?), his first 4 will be identical to Shannon's 4. Fact is, Miami's decline had basically nothing to do with Randy Shannon. It was administrative. And it's ongoing. He was the one that held it together as long as it did. Their list of administrative follies is long and in-depth. They are disappearing from the national landscape just as fast as they initially appeared after 25 years of relevance...

The team played hard for Ogre, sure. I agree. But he was still just coaching the defensive line at that point while Pendergast took over the same guys Ogre/Monte Kiffen had DC'd into the top 60 and turned them into a top 15 defense overnight....

[Political Hack]

half a year...

with a defense he didn't call...

meh...

1) he's a players coach. we need more of that on this staff.

2) he knows Mississippi and Louisiana.

3) he's coached in the SEC West.

4) He's an OUTSTANDING recruiter.

5) He's not likely to leave for a HC spot at this point and could provide some stability where we've lacked it from a program standpoint.

6) He knows Ole Miss's system.. and I'm not talking about the playbook.

I could keep going. I think it would be an incredibly strong hire. Every single DC wasn't a DC until they were.

[Political Hack]

I would LOVE Shannon too though.

[engie]

meh...

1) he's a players coach. we need more of that on this staff.

2) he knows Mississippi and Louisiana.

3) he's coached in the SEC West.

4) He's an OUTSTANDING recruiter.

5) He's not likely to leave for a HC spot at this point and could provide some stability where we've lacked it from a program standpoint.

6) He knows Ole Miss's system.. and I'm not talking about the playbook.

I could keep going. I think it would be an incredibly strong hire. Every single DC wasn't a DC until they were.

None of that points to him ever being a great DC. Literally, none of it. It points to a great guy to have on staff, sure. But not a great guy to call a defense. No one can give me any evidence that he'd be a great DC -- because it does not exist. There is a little evidence to the contrary, however...

And he's been passed over a million times -- where if he was going to be a prodigy DC, he would have gotten the opportunity -- and he would have capitalized when he did. He rarely got the opportunity -- and failed miserably when he did.

No DC was a DC until they got the chance. I agree. How many are getting their first career chances in the SEC? I'd bet dollars to donuts that Chris Wilson was the last one. No thanks on that risk. We have too much $$ and too good of a national profile right now to throw our money on snake eyes here. Who was the last one to first become a DC -- in the SEC -- 25 years into his coaching career? I'd bet that person doesn't exist...

Hire a sure thing LB coach/DC. Hire Ogre and give him every title out there short of calling him head coach and letting him call the defensive plays to get him paid. Win/Win. Hiring him to coach linebackers, something he hasn't done since 94 in D2 -- along with DC -- something he crashed and burned spectacularly with at Ole Miss to the extend that he demoted himself from the position -- is another topic entirely...

[Political Hack]

Why would he be a DC when he was a HC?

[Dawgfan77]

None of that points to him ever being a great DC. Literally, none of it. It points to a great guy to have on staff, sure. But not a great guy to call a defense. No one can give me any evidence that he'd be a great DC -- because it does not exist. There is a little evidence to the contrary, however...

And he's been passed over a million times -- where if he was going to be a prodigy DC, he would have gotten the opportunity -- and he would have capitalized when he did. He rarely got the opportunity -- and failed miserably when he did.

No DC was a DC until they got the chance. I agree. How many are getting their first career chances in the SEC? I'd bet dollars to donuts that Chris Wilson was the last one. No thanks on that risk. We have too much $$ and too good of a national profile right now to throw our money on snake eyes here. Who was the last one to first become a DC -- in the SEC -- 25 years into his coaching career? I'd bet that person doesn't exist...

Hire a sure thing LB coach/DC. Hire Ogre and give him every title out there short of calling him head coach and letting him call the defensive plays to get him paid. Win/Win. Hiring him to coach linebackers, something he hasn't done since 94 in D2 -- along with DC -- something he crashed and burned spectacularly with at Ole Miss to the extend that he demoted himself from the position -- is another topic entirely...

Lorenzo ward dc at usce was Db coach before being printed to dc by the head ball coach. Did have a brief stint as a dc at ut Chattanooga Hc at OM and so cal > dc at ut Chattanooga

[engie]

Why would he be a DC when he was a HC?

You tell me.

http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20141227-m6qu-72kb.jpg (http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/20141227-m6qu-72kb)

People pushing for Ogre point to his stint at OM and his time with Monte at USC as their evidence that he can be a good DC. While ignoring there was only one decent defense in that entire stretch(the one he inherited from Cut @ OM). It got so much worse in year 2 under his leadership that he turned the defensive coordinator position over to John Thompson for year 3, when it again got worse. http://www.olemisssports.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/011507aaa.html

[engie]

Lorenzo ward dc at usce was Db coach before being printed to dc by the head ball coach. Did have a brief stint as a dc at ut Chattanooga Hc at OM and so cal > dc at ut Chattanooga

So, Ward actually had been a DC before -- and had been at South Carolina with Spurrier/Ellis Johnson for 3 years "as defensive coordinator" prior to actually calling the defense while being obviously groomed for the position as EJ's successor. Even after all this -- Ward is pretty close to proving himself to be a pretty big mistake for Spurrier in the post-Clowney era.

I didn't know we were going after South Carolina's embattled defensive coordinator here -- either...

Hey -- if you want to call Randy Shannon "assistant head coach - defense" so you can bestow the "defensive coordinator" title on Orgeron while not actually turning it all over to him -- I'm all for it.

[Dawgfan77]

So, Ward actually had been a DC before -- and had been at South Carolina with Spurrier/Ellis Johnson for 3 years "as defensive coordinator" prior to actually calling the defense while being obviously groomed for the position as EJ's successor. Even after all this -- Ward is pretty close to proving himself to be a pretty big mistake for Spurrier in the post-Clowney era.

I didn't know we were going after South Carolina's embattled defensive coordinator here -- either...

Hey -- if you want to call Randy Shannon "assistant head coach - defense" so you can bestow the "defensive coordinator" title on Orgeron while not actually turning it all over to him -- I'm all for it.

My point was we weren't the only sec school to hire a first time dc in a power 5 conference.

[Really Clark?]

My point was we weren't the only sec school to hire a first time dc in a power 5 conference.

Except the fact that he actually had been a DC before. And you have to admit promoting from within is a lot different. The head coach already had a feel and believed the assistant coach was ready. It was a blind hire from the outside.

[engie]

Except the fact that he actually had been a DC before. And you have to admit promoting from within is a lot different. The head coach already had a feel and believed the assistant coach was ready. It was a blind hire from the outside.

Exactly. The fact that Ogre was passed on so many times when that situation presented itself tells me that HC's he was under likely felt he was unfit to be the defensive coordinator. Otherwise, why hire who had just been on a fired staff at Cali instead of promoting him? No one will convince me that Pendergast's talent level was vastly different than the one one Ogre was allegedly helping Monte with extensively the previous two years. Yet it went from a top 60 D to a top 15 D overnight.

If Tony Hughes had been our co-DC for the past 3 years, I'd be more apt to accept promoting him now too. Which, for all intents and purposes, IS what Ward was for 3 years at SC under Ellis Johnson. AND it's still looking like it very well may have been a mistake...

[Dawgfan77]

Except the fact that he actually had been a DC before. And you have to admit promoting from within is a lot different. The head coach already had a feel and believed the assistant coach was ready. It was a blind hire from the outside.
Yes at UT-Chattanooga So O being HC and DC at an sec school less than being at dc at a fcs school. Just want to make sure I understand what your saying. Yes ward has proven he is not dc material just as Wilson proved at state. Orgeron has a better resume than ward and Wilson and for that matter a better track record than turner as a dl coach

[KB21]

Did it? When Spurrier beats Golden in the bowl game(?tomorrow?), his first 4 will be identical to Shannon's 4. Fact is, Miami's decline had basically nothing to do with Randy Shannon. It was administrative. And it's ongoing. He was the one that held it together as long as it did. Their list of administrative follies is long and in-depth. They are disappearing from the national landscape just as fast as they initially appeared after 25 years of relevance...

The team played hard for Ogre, sure. I agree. But he was still just coaching the defensive line at that point while Pendergast took over the same guys Ogre/Monte Kiffen had DC'd into the top 60 and turned them into a top 15 defense overnight....

I agree with you that Miami's administration has become complacent, but I will add this. Ever since Miami lost Butch's players, player development down there has been a big issue. I've seen far too many Miami players that are extremely talented underachieve in college and go on to become better players in the NFL since the latter days of Larry Coker. I don't think they have had a 1st round draft pick since 2008. Players like Calais Campbell, Olivier Vernon, Orlando Franklin, Allen Bailey, and Lamar Miller to name a few are better in the NFL than they were in college.

Randy Shannon is great schematically, as he was able to scheme his way to top defenses, but his player development certainly leaves a lot to be desired at this point. Maybe he made poor choices on who his assistants were, as his job as a head coach is not to work with the players individually.

[KB21]

What's funny about this talk is that Randy Shannon and Ed Orgeron both coached Miami's DL in 1992. I think Randy was Orgeron's assistant.

[Really Clark?]

Yes at UT-Chattanooga So O being HC and DC at an sec school less than being at dc at a fcs school. Just want to make sure I understand what your saying. Yes ward has proven he is not dc material just as Wilson proved at state. Orgeron has a better resume than ward and Wilson and for that matter a better track record than turner as a dl coach

My main point was its much different when you are hiring from within and you tried to use an example of someone at another school being named DC with no experience except that person did. Coach O had never been hired or promoted to DC by another Head Coach. The only possible experience anyone can point to is when he named himself DC when he was a HC at UM. Now how much did he actually do, I don't know, but we do know that after the defense got much worse from year 1 to year 2, he demoted himself and let someone else call the defense. And it got even worse. You cannot use USC partial HC stint as that was all Pendergast. Whom was brought in from the outside by Kiffin. He got passed over again. And also being a HC does not qualify someone as a coordinator. There are a bunch of different style of head coaches and not all of them were coordinators. Totally different position. I don't think there will be many people looking to hire Les Miles as an offensive coordinator (however he actually was one for a few years). But he has been a successful head coach.

[Really Clark?]

What's funny about this talk is that Randy Shannon and Ed Orgeron both coached Miami's DL in 1992. I think Randy was Orgeron's assistant.

Actually I think Shannon took over for one year for Orgeron when he took a leave of absence for personal issues, a woman filed a restraining order, big bar fight in Baton Rouge. He was out of coaching for a year. The following year Shannon was moved to his natural LB coaching position.