Orgeron Thought Experiment

[1bigdawg]

Go back to 2005. If someone told you we were hiring the DL coach, Assistant HC from USC to be our DC and that he was national recruiter of the year, wouldn't you be happy? I know I would. That was Orgeron when he was not prepared to be a HC, but probably was qualified and prepared to be a DC.

Now he has much more experience and maturity and people seem to be holding that against him. He has not been a DC, but has been prepared for the step up for 9-10 years.

Hiring a DC is always a risk. Kiffen hired his dad who was the most qualified and experienced DC available and he was a flop at USC.

I don't know if Mullen will hire Orgeron, but I would be thrilled to take the chance on him.

[War Machine Dawg]

Excellent points. The man's resume speaks for itself. He's most certainly qualified to be a DC. As for all the hand-wringing over who coaches LBs if we hire O, that will work itself out. Lots of things in play here that I would suspect the vast majority of us aren't privy to. Just let the process play out and I would imagine all of us will be very happy when it's finished.

[MabenMaroon]

When Coach O's name was first mentioned, I thought no way on earth we would hire that man. But the more I have read some of the posts on here and other boards, the more I like the idea. Am thinking now it would be a home run hire. But I am still inclined to think that the hire will come from left field and none of us have even come close in guessing who it is, call it a premonition.

[CadaverDawg]

When Coach O's name was first mentioned, I thought no way on earth we would hire that man. But the more I have read some of the posts on here and other boards, the more I like the idea. Am thinking now it would be a home run hire. But I am still inclined to think that the hire will come from left field and none of us have even come close in guessing who it is, call it a premonition.

If Stricklin was hiring him I would agree...but I think Dan will get a name

[engie]

Mississippi State was an ENTIRELY different place in 2005 than it is in 2015, so it's really not comparable at all.

We know Orgeron apparently actually called defense for 3 years(his 3 at Ole Miss).
We know he had a top 35 D his first year, in spite of there allegedly being no talent from Cutcliffe. He recruited his ass off.
We know he had a top 65 D his second year. We know he recruited his ass off again.
We know he had a top 80 D his third year. We know he was then fired. His defense got progressively worse every year at Ole Miss. And not just barely worse either.
We know OM then hired Tyrone Nix, a guy Mullen totally destroyed schematically, who made the defense Orgeron had made one of the worst in the SEC into a top 20 Defense on day 1. #20 from #80 via regime change. And Tyrone Nix wasn't really any good.

It's alleged that he was a part-time DC at USC when Monte was there.
So, if we credit him with that, over his time with Lane, we have:
Top 35 D at Tennessee
Top 80 D at USC
Top 55 D at USC
Top 60 D at USC
This, off a D that had been top 20 for a decade under Pete Carroll.

Then, Monte is fired, Orgeron gets a raise while getting a reduced overall role in the defense as Pendergast is hired as an outsider as the new DC from Cal. Defense jumps to a top 15 D immediately under Pendergast, but is still not enough to save Lane.

What part of anything he's actually done is supposed to inspire me that he can actually scheme a defense? What decent defense has he actually played a key role in scheming?

[maroonmania]

Mississippi State was an ENTIRELY different place in 2005 than it is in 2015, so it's really not comparable at all.

We know Orgeron apparently actually called defense for 3 years(his 3 at Ole Miss).
We know he had a top 35 D his first year, in spite of there allegedly being no talent from Cutcliffe. He recruited his ass off.
We know he had a top 65 D his second year. We know he recruited his ass off again.
We know he had a top 80 D his third year. We know he was then fired. His defense got progressively worse every year at Ole Miss. And not just barely worse either.
We know OM then hired Tyrone Nix, a guy Mullen totally destroyed schematically, who made the defense Orgeron had made one of the worst in the SEC into a top 20 Defense on day 1. #20 from #80 via regime change. And Tyrone Nix wasn't really any good.

It's alleged that he was a part-time DC at USC when Monte was there.
So, if we credit him with that, over his time with Lane, we have:
Top 35 D at Tennessee
Top 80 D at USC
Top 55 D at USC
Top 60 D at USC
This, off a D that had been top 20 for a decade under Pete Carroll.

Then, Monte is fired, Orgeron gets a raise while getting a reduced overall role in the defense as Pendergast is hired as an outsider as the new DC from Cal. Defense jumps to a top 15 D immediately under Pendergast, but is still not enough to save Lane.

What part of anything he's actually done is supposed to inspire me that he can actually scheme a defense? What decent defense has he actually played a key role in scheming?

The one thing that is not different is Bracky Brett. Can the combination of Bracky and Coach O work in the same athletic department?

[1bigdawg]

I did not say he called those defenses. I said he was ready to step up and that any hire is a gamble to some extent.

Some seem to argue that he is not qualified because he has not been a coordinator, and the defenses he coordinated sucked. I realize most have picked one argument or the other, but some are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

[Dawgowar]

My preference if we are going for one of the coaches mentioned, is Shannon. He is not a rah-rah type but his players killed for him. He is cerebral and calm due to his upbringing. He had several family members die while growing up and others make some horrific life decisions. Read an article on him some time ago right after he got the Miami job. For those dismissing him as having had world class NFL talent on his teams being the lone factor in his success, consider this, it is not always easy to get that talent to play as a unit and he did. He could very well be the difference maker we need.

O as a recruiting coordinator and DL coach would be fine but gonna have to respectfully disagree that he is DC ready. I have friends whose children were on that USC team as it declined. Their tales of inmates running the asylum would make you cringe. I would prefer our DC be a guy who has shown he can control those strong personalities, not just someone who can recruit them. Shannon can be that guy.

Bringing in O sends a message we are going to fight TSUN at their own damn game. We bring someone in who knows where the bodies are buried so to speak. Nice first shot but things will escalate. Quickly. La

[engie]

I did not say he called those defenses. I said he was ready to step up and that any hire is a gamble to some extent.

Some seem to argue that he is not qualified because he has not been a coordinator, and the defenses he coordinated sucked. I realize most have picked one argument or the other, but some are talking out of both sides of their mouth.

I'm all for hiring him. ALL for it. It's just going to take some serious convincing for me to think turning over defensive playcalling in what will likely be one of the most key years in the history of the MSU football program to a guy that is not only unproven in that capacity, but has actively failed in it before. I've got no reason to believe he's our best option as a schemer, playcaller, or as a linebackers coach. As a DL coach/recruiter? Probably the best single option in the country. And I would be FIRED THE HELL UP to get him in that capacity!

If Mullen thinks it is what we need as DC and does it, I'll go along with it. But as far as I'm willing to go(IF Mullen decides this is the route to take) is to the fence about it.

Personally, I want to hire Ogre. But as co-DC/DL coach. There is a handful of better DC options out there for the taking IMO.

Randy Shannon for example:
Linebackers coach for Arky this year - top 20 D
Linebackers coach at TCU - top 35 D
As head coach at Miami, he was fired after having 4 top 30 defenses in a row.
As a DC at Miami, he had 5 top 10 D's in 6 years. The 6th was top 30.

The worst defense Randy Shannon has ever had his hands on(consequently as LB coach in a down year for the Gary Patterson 4-2-5) was about as good as the best one Orgeron has ever to this date played a schematic role in...

[Really Clark?]

Mississippi State was an ENTIRELY different place in 2005 than it is in 2015, so it's really not comparable at all.

We know Orgeron apparently actually called defense for 3 years(his 3 at Ole Miss).
We know he had a top 35 D his first year, in spite of there allegedly being no talent from Cutcliffe. He recruited his ass off.
We know he had a top 65 D his second year. We know he recruited his ass off again.
We know he had a top 80 D his third year. We know he was then fired. His defense got progressively worse every year at Ole Miss. And not just barely worse either.
We know OM then hired Tyrone Nix, a guy Mullen totally destroyed schematically, who made the defense Orgeron had made one of the worst in the SEC into a top 20 Defense on day 1. #20 from #80 via regime change. And Tyrone Nix wasn't really any good.

It's alleged that he was a part-time DC at USC when Monte was there.
So, if we credit him with that, over his time with Lane, we have:
Top 35 D at Tennessee
Top 80 D at USC
Top 55 D at USC
Top 60 D at USC
This, off a D that had been top 20 for a decade under Pete Carroll.

Then, Monte is fired, Orgeron gets a raise while getting a reduced overall role in the defense as Pendergast is hired as an outsider as the new DC from Cal. Defense jumps to a top 15 D immediately under Pendergast, but is still not enough to save Lane.

What part of anything he's actually done is supposed to inspire me that he can actually scheme a defense? What decent defense has he actually played a key role in scheming?

Exactly! Oh and just because he has been a head coach before does not qualify him to be a coordinator, like some people have suggested. Heck if Les Miles leaves LSU I wouldn't hire him to be an offensive coordinator and he was a coordinator for at least a couple of years. I will say that one of the main issues that is causing concern, the fact that he hasn't really been a DC, may not be as much because he lacks the ability (he might but he might not, we don't know) but he has had personal issues at times to side track his career. May be that plays a part. I don't know but I do know that we are at a point in the program that is seems like a very big risk that NO other top 10 team or even SEC teams would take a gamble on. Name one with his career track and as a DL coach that has recently turned out to be a good DC?

[blacklistedbully]

I'm with you on this one Engie. Would love to have him as a recruiter, but not as the DC. Now if we needed to give him a Co-DC to get him here, I'd be great with that, if it meant we got a quality DC to share the title and actually call the plays.

Orgeron/Pendergast
Orgeron/Shannon
Orgeron/Durkin
Orgeron/Clark
Orgeron/Up & coming young guy like Collins was.

Of course, can you get a quality DC to come on board as a Co-DC with O? Young guy, yes, but Shannon, Durkin, Clark, Pendergast?

[scottycameron]

Mississippi State was an ENTIRELY different place in 2005 than it is in 2015, so it's really not comparable at all.

We know Orgeron apparently actually called defense for 3 years(his 3 at Ole Miss).
We know he had a top 35 D his first year, in spite of there allegedly being no talent from Cutcliffe. He recruited his ass off.
We know he had a top 65 D his second year. We know he recruited his ass off again.
We know he had a top 80 D his third year. We know he was then fired. His defense got progressively worse every year at Ole Miss. And not just barely worse either.
We know OM then hired Tyrone Nix, a guy Mullen totally destroyed schematically, who made the defense Orgeron had made one of the worst in the SEC into a top 20 Defense on day 1. #20 from #80 via regime change. And Tyrone Nix wasn't really any good.

It's alleged that he was a part-time DC at USC when Monte was there.
So, if we credit him with that, over his time with Lane, we have:
Top 35 D at Tennessee
Top 80 D at USC
Top 55 D at USC
Top 60 D at USC
This, off a D that had been top 20 for a decade under Pete Carroll.

Then, Monte is fired, Orgeron gets a raise while getting a reduced overall role in the defense as Pendergast is hired as an outsider as the new DC from Cal. Defense jumps to a top 15 D immediately under Pendergast, but is still not enough to save Lane.

What part of anything he's actually done is supposed to inspire me that he can actually scheme a defense? What decent defense has he actually played a key role in scheming?

pretty obvious USC didn't put any money in their program while he was there. They should pumped a shitload in like Memphis does. It got them a great defense this year.

[engie]

pretty obvious USC didn't put any money in their program while he was there. They should pumped a shitload in like Memphis does. It got them a great defense this year.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/butthurt-form.jpg

You really going to menstruate all over the board crying about stuff that happened in other threads?

[MabenMaroon]

Tyson Summer, if for know other reason than to send Mike Bianci on another tirade about how poor, low class, laughable, flash-in-the-pan, irrelevant and whatever else he can think up derogatory about us.
Actually, he is the current DC and lb coach at UCF, that has them in the top 10 nationally in total defense, highly ranked in pass defense in a conference that is pretty much nothing but gun-slinging qb's ( not very good ones, but gunslingers none the less ). Spent time at UAB, so is familiar with our primary recruiting areas. Coaching staffs have served as his surrogate fathers from age 3 or 4 when his father died on through hs. Been tutored by George O'Leary at UCF and Neil Callaway at UAB. His defense slowed Baylor and Bryce Petty down enough to get the win in the Fiesta Bowl last year. Has also been involved with the st's who have been very respectable. Only making around 150-175k right now, would be a nice step up for him, and from all accounts he is very ambitious but measured and patient as well. Could be a very nice fit on the staff. Could he be suitable as DC? His age, experience and background kind of fits Coach Mullen's hires in the past.

[scottycameron]

Tyson Summer, if for know other reason than to send Mike Bianci on another tirade about how poor, low class, laughable, flash-in-the-pan, irrelevant and whatever else he can think up derogatory about us.
Actually, he is the current DC and lb coach at UCF, that has them in the top 10 nationally in total defense, highly ranked in pass defense in a conference that is pretty much nothing but gun-slinging qb's ( not very good ones, but gunslingers none the less ). Spent time at UAB, so is familiar with our primary recruiting areas. Coaching staffs have served as his surrogate fathers from age 3 or 4 when his father died on through hs. Been tutored by George O'Leary at UCF and Neil Callaway at UAB. His defense slowed Baylor and Bryce Petty down enough to get the win in the Fiesta Bowl last year. Has also been involved with the st's who have been very respectable. Only making around 150-175k right now, would be a nice step up for him, and from all accounts he is very ambitious but measured and patient as well. Could be a very nice fit on the staff. Could he be suitable as DC? His age, experience and background kind of fits Coach Mullen's hires in the past.

wow. you really don't belong on here. You're not getting what it takes to be a coach. You have to have what I call the "message board factor". I'll let these guys weigh in, but I don't think they will approve of your guy. He is not what gets them excited. And they know coaches, no doubt.

[scottycameron]

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/butthurt-form.jpg

You really going to menstruate all over the board crying about stuff that happened in other threads?

That was cute. I actually LOL'd reading it. I got me two bad problems going on, butthurt and menstruating at the same time.

[MabenMaroon]

wow. you really don't belong on here. You're not getting what it takes to be a coach. You have to have what I call the "message board factor". I'll let these guys weigh in, but I don't think they will approve of your guy. He is not what gets them excited. And they know coaches, no doubt.

I know! I have screwed it up again, I will try to do better in the future.