Hey Hey goodbye: Braves trade

[Political Hack]

Heyward to Cards.

[msstate7]

I like it. Now hopefully we can resign jup

[Beaver]

It's not going to be popular with the casual Brave's fan, but this is a pretty decent trade. Heyward is a great defender, but his offensive output has been disappointing. I'll miss him making some incredible catches, but I won't miss his endless choppers to second base. Don't know much about the minor league guy, but Shelby is a nice young arm. Maybe the Braves will be able to lock him up for a few years.

[msstate7]

The minor league pitcher is a top 100 prospect.

Guess this means gattis is headed to of.

C -- bethancourt
1 -- ff
2 -- Peraza
Ss -- Simmons
3 -- Cj? Wanna upgrade
LF -- gattis
Cf -- bj?
Rf -- jup

Rotation:

Teheran
Minor
Wood
Miller
Hale -- maybe medlen or beachy

Like the rotation

[Beaver]

C -- bethancourt
1 -- ff
2 -- Peraza
Ss -- Simmons
3 -- Cj? Wanna upgrade
LF -- gattis
Cf -- bj?
Rf -- jup



If BJ doesn't suck again, that outfield could be pretty powerful. However, FF has to hit .300, and Peraza or anybody else who plays second has got to be productive.

[shoeless joe]

Heyward has been over rated since day 1 in the minors. Seems like a solid team guy but other than his first month in the bigs and the stint 2 years ago before his jaw was broke he has basically been a defensive role player.

Hopefully this trade turns out like the last one between these teams that involved a right fielder and a young pitcher...except in the braves favor this time.

[BrunswickDawg]

Heyward has been over rated since day 1 in the minors. Seems like a solid team guy but other than his first month in the bigs and the stint 2 years ago before his jaw was broke he has basically been a defensive role player.

Hopefully this trade turns out like the last one between these teams that involved a right fielder and a young pitcher...except in the braves favor this time.
Ugh, worst deal EVA! Wainright just kills me every time.

[War Machine Dawg]

Love this trade. What J-Hey thinks he's worth versus what the Braves think he's worth isn't in the same ballpark. I hate to lose Walden, but moving J-Hey was imperative. As it was pointed out above, the way is clear for El Oso Blanco to move to LF and should give us some room to re-sign J-Up. Plus we're getting 4 years of Shelby Miller. Don't know much about the prospect we got, but I'm guessing he's decent.

[KB21]

The biggest part of Jason Heyward's value is in his defense and his base running ability. He is coming up on his free agent year, and the anticipation is that someone is going to give him $20+ million a season despite his relatively mediocre offensive production and limited power to this point. I don't think the Braves want to pay that for just his defense and base running, but someone will do it in anticipation of what he is capable of offensively.

In return, the Braves got Shelby Miller, who is a damn fine starter and probably a future #2 guy in the rotation, and Tyrell Jenkins is a former top 100 prospect in the minors. The Braves are dedicated to rebuilding their farm system after Frank Wren, his brother, and Tony DeMacio oversaw the decline in the system from a top 10 to a bottom 10 system.

I hate losing Heyward, but the writing was apparently on the wall about him not signing an extension. Shelby Miller is signed through 2019.

[Todd4State]

What a dumb trade by the Cardinals. Holy shit.

I would much rather go with Piscotty and Grichuk rather than give up Miller for one year of Heyward. This would have made sense if Heyward could hit LH pitching so that they could use him in a platoon with Matt Adams. But Heyward isn't that good against LH pitching, so basically they have weakened their pitching staff and added to a glut in the outfield for a one year rental.

Jenkins had comps to Dwight Gooden coming out of high school. But he has had shoulder problems. Low risk, high reward prospect.

[PMDawg]

I bet Heyward puts up All Star numbers within the next 2 seasons. Something is wrong in ATL. Some of the hottest hitters can come in there and immediately begin sucking. I think its the Braves org. not the players.

[Political Hack]

need to move the whole damn lineup outside if JHey and Gattis.

Agree PM. He's a baller and is going to go wild for the Cards, but the Braves need a lefty starter bad so it may be a win win.

[Todd4State]

I bet Heyward puts up All Star numbers within the next 2 seasons. Something is wrong in ATL. Some of the hottest hitters can come in there and immediately begin sucking. I think its the Braves org. not the players.

Yeah IF that happens, I bet the Cardinals cheap asses let him walk after ONE year. As much as they are charging for tickets, they can't tell me that they don't have money.

If I were the Cardinals, in light of Oscar Taveras's death- this is the guy I would go after even though he is going to probably cost at least 40 million. Baseball fans are going to know about him very soon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shohei_Otani

[Dawg61]

Terrible trade for the Braves imo. Should of gotten Wacha for Heyward. Straight up. Heyward is an elite defender and he's young. Very young still at only 25. Gattis for Shelby Miller is fair. Heyward for him and a minor leaguer is rape by the Cards. Cards just upgraded big time over the unfortunate and tragic loss of Oscar Taveras.

[DudyDawg]

Todd, what do you see this doing with our rotation. Who replaces miller?

[Todd4State]

Terrible trade for the Braves imo. Should of gotten Wacha for Heyward. Straight up. Heyward is an elite defender and he's young. Very young still at only 25. Gattis for Shelby Miller is fair. Heyward for him and a minor leaguer is rape by the Cards. Cards just upgraded big time over the unfortunate and tragic loss of Oscar Taveras.

****. We just gave you a guy that hasn't hit his peak yet and is a potential 20 game winner. And you want more for a guy that is going to play for us for one year and was certainly going to leave Atlanta had you kept him leaving you with nothing but maybe an extra draft pick?

[Dawg61]

****. We just gave you a guy that hasn't hit his peak yet and is a potential 20 game winner. And you want more for a guy that is going to play for us for one year and was certainly going to leave Atlanta had you kept him leaving you with nothing but maybe an extra draft pick?

I'm a Giants fan. Y'all raped the Braves here. Wacha or no trade. Braves new GM off to a terrible start.

[Todd4State]

Todd, what do you see this doing with our rotation. Who replaces miller?

It's going to be:

1. Wainwright
2. Lynn
3. Wacha
4. Lackey
5. Carlos Martinez/Marco Gonzalez/Jamie Garcia if he is actually healthy which I strongly doubt he is.

So, my guess is it will be Gonzalez. It's scary because Wainwright just had surgery on his elbow and Wacha has to be considered a question mark at this point. I think Tim Cooney will be a dark horse candidate and I bet they go after a back end of the rotation guy that they can sign to a one year deal. There were rumors that they liked James Shields but that doesn't mean anything.

[Todd4State]

I'm a Giants fan. Y'all raped the Braves here. Wacha or no trade. Braves new GM off to a terrible start.

Ummm.....no. The Braves weren't going to keep Heyward beyond this year. They get a potential ace for cheap over the next four years. The odds of this blowing up in the Cardinals face long term is much, much, much higher.

And Heyward can't hit LH pitching- he will platoon with Grichuk. You don't trade a potential ace for a platoon OF and a set-up guy. Much less an even more established prospect in Wacha- who the Cardinals probably can't move right now anyway because of his injury this year and the fact that no one knows how he is going to recover from allowing that walk-off home run in the NLCS to end the season.

[Beaver]

Terrible trade for the Braves imo. Should of gotten Wacha for Heyward. Straight up. Heyward is an elite defender and he's young. Very young still at only 25. Gattis for Shelby Miller is fair. Heyward for him and a minor leaguer is rape by the Cards. Cards just upgraded big time over the unfortunate and tragic loss of Oscar Taveras.

Gattis for Miller? So a subpar defender with a .250 average who's 27 for a 23 year old SP rookie of the year? Surely you can't be serious...

[ShotgunDawg]

This is a good trade for both sides.

Miller is a solid #3 starter that still has some upside. He's only 23 and threw 183 inning this year with a 3.74 ERA.

The Braves also landed Tyrell Jenkins, who has an enormous ceiling. He is an elite athlete that pitches in the upper 90s with nasty stuff. Jenkins is still a little raw, but, if he pans out, the Braves win this trade. Jenkins just go done dominating the Arizona Fall League with a 2.22 ERA in 24 innings pitched. His stock is at an all time high right now.

On the other side, the Cardinals were in a very unfortunate situation where they had to replace Oscar Taveras after his death and were thus put in a tough spot. The Cardinals, however, have tons a money to spend because so many of their players are home grown and don't cost much money. Furthermore, while Miller is good, he was expendable, due to the Cardinals pitching depth. The Cardinals still have Carlos Martinez, Tim Cooney, and Michael Wacha re-entering the rotation next year to go along with Wainwright and Lynn. The Cardinals are going to be fine.

Overall, this is a good trade for both teams. The way trades should be

[Todd4State]

Gattis for Miller? So a subpar defender with a .250 average who's 27 for a 23 year old SP rookie of the year? Surely you can't be serious...

Especially considering that the Cardinals have Molina and Tony Cruz at catcher.

[Todd4State]

This is a good trade for both sides.

Miller is a solid #3 starter that still has some upside. He's only 23 and threw 183 inning this year with a 3.74 ERA.

The Braves also landed Tyrell Jenkins, who has an enormous ceiling. He is an elite athlete that pitches in the upper 90s with nasty stuff. Jenkins is still a little raw, but, if he pans out, the Braves win this trade. Jenkins just go done dominating the Arizona Fall League with a 2.22 ERA in 24 innings pitched. His stock is at an all time high right now.

On the other side, the Cardinals were in a very unfortunate situation where they had to replace Oscar Taveras after his death and were thus put in a tough spot. The Cardinals, however, have tons a money to spend because so many of their players are home grown and don't cost much money. Furthermore, while Miller is good, he was expendable, due to the Cardinals pitching depth. The Cardinals still have Carlos Martinez, Tim Cooney, and Michael Wacha re-entering the rotation next year to go along with Wainwright and Lynn. The Cardinals are going to be fine.

Overall, this is a good trade for both teams. The way trades should be

I hate to be insensitive, but Taveras passing away really hurts the Cardinals in many ways from a baseball standpoint. Had he not passed away, the Cardinals could have held onto Miller and Jenkins and then they could have packaged them plus another player for a player that is better than Heyward- and one that they might have been able to control longer.

Sadly, it is what it is and no one has any control over it.

[ShotgunDawg]

I hate to be insensitive, but Taveras passing away really hurts the Cardinals in many ways from a baseball standpoint. Had he not passed away, the Cardinals could have held onto Miller and Jenkins and then they could have packaged them plus another player for a player that is better than Heyward- and one that they might have been able to control longer.

Sadly, it is what it is and no one has any control over it.


Yup, it is what it is though. While not exactly the same obviously, many teams have injuries and what not, that cause them to lose good players. It's why it's so important to draft well and build depth within the organization. Interestingly, the Cardinals are better equipped to handle this than any other organization.

[Dawg61]

Ummm.....no. The Braves weren't going to keep Heyward beyond this year. They get a potential ace for cheap over the next four years. The odds of this blowing up in the Cardinals face long term is much, much, much higher.

And Heyward can't hit LH pitching- he will platoon with Grichuk. You don't trade a potential ace for a platoon OF and a set-up guy. Much less an even more established prospect in Wacha- who the Cardinals probably can't move right now anyway because of his injury this year and the fact that no one knows how he is going to recover from allowing that walk-off home run in the NLCS to end the season.

You're drunk if you think Shelby Miller is a potential ace and that Heyward will platoon with Grichuk. Fu@king Grichuk? You serious dude? Hahahaha

[Todd4State]

You're drunk if you think Shelby Miller is a potential ace and that Heyward will platoon with Grichuk. Fu@king Grichuk? You serious dude? Hahahaha

Look at Heyward and Grichuk's splits. It screams platoon. Heyward is hit .231 against LH pitching last year. Grichuk hit .250 against RH pitching in MLB, but he hit an alarming .235 against RH pitching in AAA. Plus, the Cardinals aren't likely to start 5 LH hitters (Adams, Carpenter, Wong, Heyward, and Jay) against a LH starter. The original plan was for Taveras and Grichuk to platoon this year until Jay leaves and then Grichuk is going likely take over in CF.

Miller has the talent to be an ace. I don't know if he has it between the ears to be one. When he is on, he is absolutely filthy. Don't forget that he is still only 23- even if he doesn't become an ace, he is at worst a solid starting pitcher who has his best days ahead of him. He pitched very well at the end of the year after he started throwing a sinker/cutter that Justin Masterson taught him. He's going to throw that from here on out.

I think you're just mad because the Cardinals wouldn't trade Wacha for Gattis.

[smootness]

61 is more right than anybody else here. There's no way the best the Braves could do for Heyward was a mediocre SP and a prospect who's never done anything. Jenkins may have a high ceiling, but there's about a .02% chance he hits it. And Miller is in no way, shape, or form a potential future #1. He was the Cards' #4 starter this year and is regressing. His K rate, one of the most promising things about him, took a massive dip this year. His K/BB rate was awful, and his peripherals were even worse than his actual performance.

Miller is ok but he's not anybody who's going to change what you are in any meaningful way. I believe the Braves could have potentially resigned Heyward had they actually tried, and he's definitely better than most on here believe.

[msstate7]

61 is more right than anybody else here. There's no way the best the Braves could do for Heyward was a mediocre SP and a prospect who's never done anything. Jenkins may have a high ceiling, but there's about a .02% chance he hits it. And Miller is in no way, shape, or form a potential future #1. He was the Cards' #4 starter this year and is regressing. His K rate, one of the most promising things about him, took a massive dip this year. His K/BB rate was awful, and his peripherals were even worse than his actual performance.

Miller is ok but he's not anybody who's going to change what you are in any meaningful way. I believe the Braves could have potentially resigned Heyward had they actually tried, and he's definitely better than most on here believe.

I think the Braves know they can't sign jup and jhey. I think they'd rather try and keep jup.

[Dawg61]

I think the Braves know they can't sign jup and jhey. I think they'd rather try and keep jup.

See that's a massive mistake. Heyward is by far a better overall player than Justin Upton imo. His defense, speed and youth more than make up his lack of power numbers to Upton.

[msstate7]

See that's a massive mistake. Heyward is by far a better overall player than Justin Upton imo. His defense, speed and youth more than make up his lack of power numbers to Upton.

Jhey 25
Jup 27

[Dawg61]

Jhey 25
Jup 27

You're blinded by power. Braves would of been far better off trading both Upton's and keeping Heyward.

[msstate7]

You're blinded by power. Braves would of been far better off trading both Upton's and keeping Heyward.

Might still trade jup. I'm speculating. I had inside info, but wren got fired*****

[Todd4State]

61 is more right than anybody else here. There's no way the best the Braves could do for Heyward was a mediocre SP and a prospect who's never done anything. Jenkins may have a high ceiling, but there's about a .02% chance he hits it. And Miller is in no way, shape, or form a potential future #1. He was the Cards' #4 starter this year and is regressing. His K rate, one of the most promising things about him, took a massive dip this year. His K/BB rate was awful, and his peripherals were even worse than his actual performance.

Miller is ok but he's not anybody who's going to change what you are in any meaningful way. I believe the Braves could have potentially resigned Heyward had they actually tried, and he's definitely better than most on here believe.

Heyward has said multiple times that he was going to test the market and just turned down an extension offer from the Braves. That's a red flag that he wouldn't come back. And you better believe that someone like the Yankees would have no problem overspending on him especially with that short porch in RF.

Miller's issues are 100% maturity related.

Changing scenery may help both.

[Todd4State]

Might still trade jup. I'm speculating. I had inside info, but wren got fired*****

They're trying to trade him too from what I have heard. The Mariners might be where he ends up if Upton will OK it.

[msstate7]

They're trying to trade him too from what I have heard. The Mariners might be where he ends up if Upton will OK it.

Any speculation on the return?

[Smitty]

Heyward > J. Upton. Bravos could have brought back more that what they got. Shelby Miller is a HUGE question mark.

[Todd4State]

Any speculation on the return?

I've seen some rumors about Taijuan Walker for Upton, but that seems to be a bit much to me personally for Upton. I doubt the Braves have really started talking about it too much probably because they wanted to get the LaStella and Heyward trades done first to see what the actual returns were. You never know- they may have wanted to get Vizcaino and Jenkins to use them in a trade with another team.

[ShotgunDawg]

Here is an excellent article for anyone wanting more info:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-fascinating-jason-heywardshelby-miller-swap/

[KB21]

I've seen some rumors about Taijuan Walker for Upton, but that seems to be a bit much to me personally for Upton. I doubt the Braves have really started talking about it too much probably because they wanted to get the LaStella and Heyward trades done first to see what the actual returns were. You never know- they may have wanted to get Vizcaino and Jenkins to use them in a trade with another team.

If they do it, it will definitely be for a young pitcher that they have several years of control over his contract.

You know how bad the Braves system has become? After they traded for Arodys Viscaino and Tyrell Jenkins, they are rated as the Braves 4th and 7th best prospects respectively by MLB Pipeline. Viscaino was right behind Julio Teheran as a prospect back in 2011. It has been a while since I have seen their farm system this low on high level talent.

[KB21]

Here is an excellent article for anyone wanting more info:

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-fascinating-jason-heywardshelby-miller-swap/

I think a lot of stats guys overrate Jason's overall impact. I don't want to make it sound like I am trying to diminish him, but if you listen to the people that love the WAR stat, Jason is just a notch below Mike Trout as a player right now. IMO, that's where he should be, but his bat isn't good enough to put him there. The majority of his value comes from defense and base running. He's a .260 hitter that strikes out too much and hasn't shown much power to date on offense. On defense, he's an all world player.

Shelby Miller is a young power arm that the Braves were actually considering back in 2009 when they took Mike Minor. Stats guys will bemoan his lack of stellar strike out numbers, but he's got the ability. Working with Roger McDowell could be what he needs to realize that potential. I think he could be a #2 guy going forward.

[KB21]

The Braves are meeting with John Lester on Thursday. They cleared $11 million in salary space with the Heyward/Walden trade, and they may be able to clear enough to get into the bidding for Lester if they move Justin Upton over the next couple of days.

John Lester
Julio Teheran
Alex Wood
Shelby Miller
Mike Minor

That's a hell of a pitching staff.

[msstate7]

The Braves are meeting with John Lester on Thursday. They cleared $11 million in salary space with the Heyward/Walden trade, and they may be able to clear enough to get into the bidding for Lester if they move Justin Upton over the next couple of days.

John Lester
Julio Teheran
Alex Wood
Shelby Miller
Mike Minor

That's a hell of a pitching staff.

Awesome. Will we have an outfield though?

[War Machine Dawg]

Awesome. Will we have an outfield though?

We'll find another bum to go with BJ & El Oso Blanco. With that pitching staff, we wouldn't need to score a whole lot of runs. It's not like hitters thrive in Atlanta anyway, so why wast money on one?

[msstate7]

How expensive would aoki be?

[Tbonewannabe]

Will the new park be more hitter friendly?

[KB21]

We'll find another bum to go with BJ & El Oso Blanco. With that pitching staff, we wouldn't need to score a whole lot of runs. It's not like hitters thrive in Atlanta anyway, so why wast money on one?

I still think BJ will be moved as well. It will be interesting to see how they fill out the outfield. You can pretty much pencil Gattis in to left field unless they have to use him to get rid of someone like Chris Johnson. Gattis is 27, but they still have 4 years of control on his contract.

[Todd4State]

Jim Bowden is saying the Cardinals are after Lester too. We have the payroll flexibility to do that since Lackey is going to get 500K next year.

I'll be a lot happier about moving Miller for Heyward if they can lock up Lester to go along with Wainwright, Lynn, Wacha, and Lackey. That will allow them to keep Carlos Martinez and Marco Gonzalez in the bullpen along with Walden and Rosenthal. I wouldn't be shocked if they end up bringing Motte back despite the rumors that they are going to let him walk too.