Todd, what the heck is going on at Madison Central?

[CadaverDawg]

They lost again tonight to Columbus, and based on twitter it sounds like they are eliminated from the playoff hunt. Is Bawby Hawl done?

[M.Fillmore]

They lost again tonight to Columbus, and based on twitter it sounds like they are eliminated from the playoff hunt. Is Bawby Hawl done?

Nine starters out and tonight their QB went out with what they think is a broken collar bone. Tough to win with a 3rd string QB and the other starters out.

[Todd4State]

There have been issues there for awhile that were masked by being in a weaker district and teams that had good potential being down such as Clinton and Warren Central. To me, this has been only a matter of time. His whole mantra for staying around is "but we won the district." A trained chicken could have won MC's district before Starkville joined with MC's talent.

As far as being eliminated from the playoffs- yes. They've lost to Clinton, Warren Central, Starkville, and now Columbus. And I wouldn't be shocked at all if they lost to Northwest Rankin. Right now the only thing left to play for is to not have a losing season.

Is Bobby Hall done? Not that I have heard, but in my opinion yes, he should be. It's complicated a little bit because he is also the athletic director. There were rumors about Brad Peterson coming aboard after he resigned from Brandon, however to my understanding that has been smoothed over and Peterson is staying there.

I don't think the talent is all that bad. Trey Smith and Keenan Barnes are D-I players. They've beaten Brandon, a pretty good Gulfport team on the road, and then West Monroe. Ever since they lost to Clinton, I think it has rocked their world. I don't know if he lost the team or what- but that's kind of what I suspect has happened.

There's no excuse for MC to be this bad. There are too many resources there- possibly more than any other than the state including a state of the art healthplex with a prominent focus on football training literally within walking distance of the school. They're getting what they deserve though IMO- for allowing him to be an embarrassment to the community with his schenanigans. Madison Central really should be Mississippi's version of Hoover HS. If they ever stop being ridiculous and redneck and decide to actually get serious about it that is. There is zero reason why MC should not be able to attract a very innovative football coach and have a top level program year in and year out. They just need someone that can utilize the resources that they have.

[Todd4State]

Nine starters out and tonight their QB went out with what they think is a broken collar bone. Tough to win with a 3rd string QB and the other starters out.

Are they not basically platooning Smith and Walker?

[CadaverDawg]

There have been issues there for awhile that were masked by being in a weaker district and teams that had good potential being down such as Clinton and Warren Central. To me, this has been only a matter of time. His whole mantra for staying around is "but we won the district." A trained chicken could have won MC's district before Starkville joined with MC's talent.

As far as being eliminated from the playoffs- yes. They've lost to Clinton, Warren Central, Starkville, and now Columbus. And I wouldn't be shocked at all if they lost to Northwest Rankin. Right now the only thing left to play for is to not have a losing season.

Is Bobby Hall done? Not that I have heard, but in my opinion yes, he should be. It's complicated a little bit because he is also the athletic director. There were rumors about Brad Peterson coming aboard after he resigned from Brandon, however to my understanding that has been smoothed over and Peterson is staying there.

I don't think the talent is all that bad. Trey Smith and Keenan Barnes are D-I players. They've beaten Brandon, a pretty good Gulfport team on the road, and then West Monroe. Ever since they lost to Clinton, I think it has rocked their world. I don't know if he lost the team or what- but that's kind of what I suspect has happened.

There's no excuse for MC to be this bad. There are too many resources there- possibly more than any other than the state including a state of the art healthplex with a prominent focus on football training literally within walking distance of the school. They're getting what they deserve though IMO- for allowing him to be an embarrassment to the community with his schenanigans. Madison Central really should be Mississippi's version of Hoover HS. If they ever stop being ridiculous and redneck and decide to actually get serious about it that is. There is zero reason why MC should not be able to attract a very innovative football coach and have a top level program year in and year out. They just need someone that can utilize the resources that they have.

Thanks for the breakdown. I totally agree with that last paragraph....no reason for MC not to be a perennial power in MS Highschool football.

[War Machine Dawg]

There have been issues there for awhile that were masked by being in a weaker district and teams that had good potential being down such as Clinton and Warren Central. To me, this has been only a matter of time. His whole mantra for staying around is "but we won the district." A trained chicken could have won MC's district before Starkville joined with MC's talent.

As far as being eliminated from the playoffs- yes. They've lost to Clinton, Warren Central, Starkville, and now Columbus. And I wouldn't be shocked at all if they lost to Northwest Rankin. Right now the only thing left to play for is to not have a losing season.

Is Bobby Hall done? Not that I have heard, but in my opinion yes, he should be. It's complicated a little bit because he is also the athletic director. There were rumors about Brad Peterson coming aboard after he resigned from Brandon, however to my understanding that has been smoothed over and Peterson is staying there.

I don't think the talent is all that bad. Trey Smith and Keenan Barnes are D-I players. They've beaten Brandon, a pretty good Gulfport team on the road, and then West Monroe. Ever since they lost to Clinton, I think it has rocked their world. I don't know if he lost the team or what- but that's kind of what I suspect has happened.

There's no excuse for MC to be this bad. There are too many resources there- possibly more than any other than the state including a state of the art healthplex with a prominent focus on football training literally within walking distance of the school. They're getting what they deserve though IMO- for allowing him to be an embarrassment to the community with his schenanigans. Madison Central really should be Mississippi's version of Hoover HS. If they ever stop being ridiculous and redneck and decide to actually get serious about it that is. There is zero reason why MC should not be able to attract a very innovative football coach and have a top level program year in and year out. They just need someone that can utilize the resources that they have.

Or maybe the problem is a bunch of silver spoon white boys for players. Money and resources are cool, but it eventually boils down to talent. Ridgeland and MRA have eaten into MC's talent pool.

I know I'm a bit of a homer, but there's a reason SP has dominated the state for 20+ years. The talent pool is ridiculous. You can accuse them of recruiting all you want (and every damn school does it), but for the most part, the last names don't change. I can drive you all over south Panola County and point out where each family clan lives. "Over there is where the Markets are. There's the Barksdales. Up that hill are the Pegues." I could keep going, but you get the drift. Those guys are all brothers, cousins, nephews, etc. Hell, even during his micromanaging days where he refused to let SP pass, Ed Stanley managed to win most of the time. Why? The talent was that good. Then you get in a Rickey Woods, who opened up the offense, and you wind up with The Streak. Even Pogue, who's a rich man's Ed Stanley, manages to win in spite of his shitty "coaching." SP may not have the resources of an MC, but they damn sure have the talent. And those guys work 24/7/365 to be the best.

Unless MC magically gets a bunch of players who aren't soft and want to work their asses off to be the best, they'll never be more than a distant #2 or #3 in the state to SP. In MC's case - money is the problem, not the answer.

[Intramural All-American]

Y'all forget that MC had Germantown split off 3 years ago. That took some of the player pool, while not the majority of the talent. But before MC and Germantown separated, MC was top 2 or 3 in the state most years and just couldn't get over th SP hump (no one could). This same thing has happened in baseball. And this same situation happened in both sports when Ridgeland split off in 02.

[Todd4State]

Or maybe the problem is a bunch of silver spoon white boys for players. Money and resources are cool, but it eventually boils down to talent. Ridgeland and MRA have eaten into MC's talent pool.

I know I'm a bit of a homer, but there's a reason SP has dominated the state for 20+ years. The talent pool is ridiculous. You can accuse them of recruiting all you want (and every damn school does it), but for the most part, the last names don't change. I can drive you all over south Panola County and point out where each family clan lives. "Over there is where the Markets are. There's the Barksdales. Up that hill are the Pegues." I could keep going, but you get the drift. Those guys are all brothers, cousins, nephews, etc. Hell, even during his micromanaging days where he refused to let SP pass, Ed Stanley managed to win most of the time. Why? The talent was that good. Then you get in a Rickey Woods, who opened up the offense, and you wind up with The Streak. Even Pogue, who's a rich man's Ed Stanley, manages to win in spite of his shitty "coaching." SP may not have the resources of an MC, but they damn sure have the talent. And those guys work 24/7/365 to be the best.

Unless MC magically gets a bunch of players who aren't soft and want to work their asses off to be the best, they'll never be more than a distant #2 or #3 in the state to SP. In MC's case - money is the problem, not the answer.

First of all, I would be willing to bet that most of MC's starters are black.

The second thing I highlighted about the players wanting to work their asses off- that to me is coaching. To me, if you are rich you have no excuse because most people that come from rich families- the reason why they are rich a lot of times is because they had to work their ass off to get rich. And therefore, they should have people that model hard work and the value of hard work in a lot of instances.

A good coach should be able to take advantage of the resources given and drive and instill hard work. And this maybe a horrible analogy- but on the college level, Alabama has a ton of resources and they have a coach that drives the players to work hard. And that's why they win. With Hall it's all about making himself the show by yelling at officials and whatever.

So, in short- they're not soft because they're rich. They're soft because their coach doesn't push them like he needs to win at a championship level.

[Todd4State]

Y'all forget that MC had Germantown split off 3 years ago. That took some of the player pool, while not the majority of the talent. But before MC and Germantown separated, MC was top 2 or 3 in the state most years and just couldn't get over th SP hump (no one could). This same thing has happened in baseball. And this same situation happened in both sports when Ridgeland split off in 02.

This is a lame excuse. MC has almost 100 football players on the roster currently. Germantown has been around, what three years now? MC hasn't struggled like this the past two years. MC has/had some major coaching issues with the baseball team to say the least.

I will say this though- I've always laughed at people that say that MC doesn't want a Flora HS because it would take all the good football players away when the reality is splitting off Ridgeland and Germantown hurt them worse than splitting out Flora ever would have.

[M.Fillmore]

Or maybe the problem is a bunch of silver spoon white boys for players. Money and resources are cool, but it eventually boils down to talent. Ridgeland and MRA have eaten into MC's talent pool.

I know I'm a bit of a homer, but there's a reason SP has dominated the state for 20+ years. The talent pool is ridiculous. You can accuse them of recruiting all you want (and every damn school does it), but for the most part, the last names don't change. I can drive you all over south Panola County and point out where each family clan lives. "Over there is where the Markets are. There's the Barksdales. Up that hill are the Pegues." I could keep going, but you get the drift. Those guys are all brothers, cousins, nephews, etc. Hell, even during his micromanaging days where he refused to let SP pass, Ed Stanley managed to win most of the time. Why? The talent was that good. Then you get in a Rickey Woods, who opened up the offense, and you wind up with The Streak. Even Pogue, who's a rich man's Ed Stanley, manages to win in spite of his shitty "coaching." SP may not have the resources of an MC, but they damn sure have the talent. And those guys work 24/7/365 to be the best.

Unless MC magically gets a bunch of players who aren't soft and want to work their asses off to be the best, they'll never be more than a distant #2 or #3 in the state to SP. In MC's case - money is the problem, not the answer.

I'll raise a third possibility. People may scoff at it, but I think is has validity. The teams that do well in the All-Sports trophy have good athletes siphoned off by other sports. Yes, I know that there are multi-sport athletes at schools. I also know that kids get distracted and there is more specialization these days. I had a football coach tell me that in the past he always got the best athletes, not so anymore. But I don't think Lance Pogue has this problem. At South Panola they have great athletes and these guys play football (yes South Panola had a good baseball team a few years ago, but South Panola has never sniffed an All Sports award.

Take a look at the All Sports champions for 2012-13 (the CL did not give detailed standings in 2013-14). I'll list the All Sports champions at how they did in football.

6A: Madison Central (semi-finals)
5A: Oxford (quarter-finals)
4A: Corinth (round of 16)
3A: St. Andrews (didn't make football playoffs)
2A: St. Joe (round of 16)
1A: Tupelo Christian (didn't male football playoffs)

Either Tupelo or Madison Central has won each of the 27 All Sports awards for their classification. Each school has only one football title. Both schools have great football facilities.

I'm no Bobby Hall homer. I do have a great relationship with Bobby Hall as well as with Brad Peterson, Judd Boswell, Josh Morgan, Tyler Petersen, et al.

[War Machine Dawg]

First of all, I would be willing to bet that most of MC's starters are black.

The second thing I highlighted about the players wanting to work their asses off- that to me is coaching. To me, if you are rich you have no excuse because most people that come from rich families- the reason why they are rich a lot of times is because they had to work their ass off to get rich. And therefore, they should have people that model hard work and the value of hard work in a lot of instances.

A good coach should be able to take advantage of the resources given and drive and instill hard work. And this maybe a horrible analogy- but on the college level, Alabama has a ton of resources and they have a coach that drives the players to work hard. And that's why they win. With Hall it's all about making himself the show by yelling at officials and whatever.

So, in short- they're not soft because they're rich. They're soft because their coach doesn't push them like he needs to win at a championship level.

Keep telling yourself that. You can deny it if you wish, but money definitely makes kids soft. MC hasn't bred the hard work aspect into their culture, and that's why they aren't winning. MC needs a culture change. But I doubt it will happen.

[Intramural All-American]

This is a lame excuse. MC has almost 100 football players on the roster currently. Germantown has been around, what three years now? MC hasn't struggled like this the past two years. MC has/had some major coaching issues with the baseball team to say the least.

I will say this though- I've always laughed at people that say that MC doesn't want a Flora HS because it would take all the good football players away when the reality is splitting off Ridgeland and Germantown hurt them worse than splitting out Flora ever would have.

It's definitely hurt in baseball worse than football, but you can't expect not to have some issues when a good 30% of the school leaves to start a new one. That first senior class was able to decide if they wanted to leave or stay so it wasn't affected at that point. The past two years, though have not been great in either sport. I'm not arguing that we should be doing more, I'm just saying no other school in the state other than in desoto county has had to split twice in 10 years. It definitely hurts, especially for a depth standpoint.

[War Machine Dawg]

I'll raise a third possibility. People may scoff at it, but I think is has validity. The teams that do well in the All-Sports trophy have good athletes siphoned off by other sports. Yes, I know that there are multi-sport athletes at schools. I also know that kids get distracted and there is more specialization these days. I had a football coach tell me that in the past he always got the best athletes, not so anymore. But I don't think Lance Pogue has this problem. At South Panola they have great athletes and these guys play football (yes South Panola had a good baseball team a few years ago, but South Panola has never sniffed an All Sports award.

Take a look at the All Sports champions for 2012-13 (the CL did not give detailed standings in 2013-14). I'll list the All Sports champions at how they did in football.

6A: Madison Central (semi-finals)
5A: Oxford (quarter-finals)
4A: Corinth (round of 16)
3A: St. Andrews (didn't make football playoffs)
2A: St. Joe (round of 16)
1A: Tupelo Christian (didn't male football playoffs)

Either Tupelo or Madison Central has won each of the 27 All Sports awards for their classification. Each school has only one football title. Both schools have great football facilities.

I'm no Bobby Hall homer. I do have a great relationship with Bobby Hall as well as with Brad Peterson, Judd Boswell, Josh Morgan, Tyler Petersen, et al.

Very valid point. And I don't think it's crazy at all. As you point out, the age of specialization has hurt. Kids feel forced to choose much earlier than they should and inevitably several choose other sports. Plus, I think the concussion issue the drive-by sports media is pushing has started having an effect. Parents are more likely to encourage their kids towards other sports like soccer and away from football.

But I still say MC is a program full of soft players who don't want to do the hard work it takes to win. Games are won from January-July, and MC is getting mauled in those months.

[M.Fillmore]

But I still say MC is a program full of soft players who don't want to do the hard work it takes to win. Games are won from January-July, and MC is getting mauled in those months.

I agree with you in theory but I'll use different words. Per the Census data, over 63% of Madison's residents over age 25 have a Bachelor's degree or higher and the average household income is just under $97,000. Look the football title-towns of Batesville and Louisville: Batesville has 30% degreed and $20,215 while Louisville has 23% and $15,435.

The kids in Madison don't need sports as a ticket out. Batesville and Louisville kids are more hungry and they can view football as a way out.

Also, at MC the academics are really celebrated. MC has more National Merit scholars than St. Andrews and Jackson Prep combined. MC's goal is to have over 100 kids in the "ACT 30+" club. They are currently in the high 90's and may hit 100 by Christmas. I'd bet there is no "ACT 30+" club at South Panola and Louisville. Parents at MC push academics.

[TUSK]

I agree with you in theory but I'll use different words. Per the Census data, over 63% of Madison's residents over age 25 have a Bachelor's degree or higher and the average household income is just under $97,000. Look the football title-towns of Batesville and Louisville: Batesville has 30% degreed and $20,215 while Louisville has 23% and $15,435.

The kids in Madison don't need sports as a ticket out. Batesville and Louisville kids are more hungry and they can view football as a way out.

Also, at MC the academics are really celebrated. MC has more National Merit scholars than St. Andrews and Jackson Prep combined. MC's goal is to have over 100 kids in the "ACT 30+" club. They are currently in the high 90's and may hit 100 by Christmas. I'd bet there is no "ACT 30+" club at South Panola and Louisville. Parents at MC push academics.

good post....

i agree with you Re: "ticket out", however, I don't think it gives enough credit to the athletes from "Batesville & L'ville"...

While most won't kick ass on a standardized test like thier MC counterparts, they are definitely superior physically.

[ScottH]

MC has more National Merit scholars than St. Andrews and Jackson Prep combined.

Based purely on raw numbers shouldn't they have more like double St Andrews and Jackson Prep combined?

[I seen it dawg]

Keep telling yourself that. You can deny it if you wish, but money definitely makes kids soft. MC hasn't bred the hard work aspect into their culture, and that's why they aren't winning. MC needs a culture change. But I doubt it will happen.

Culture change starts with the leader of the program does it not?

(I have zero dog in this hunt)

[I seen it dawg]

good post....

i agree with you Re: "ticket out", however, I don't think it gives enough credit to the athletes from "Batesville & L'ville"...

While most won't kick ass on a standardized test like thier MC counterparts, they are definitely superior physically.

Agree. And to add not enough credit given to leaders of the program to drive this talent to be successful. How many teams do we talk about every year that don't win anything and we look back and say "how can they not win with that roster?"

[BeastMan]

Madison Central has taken on the personality of their head coach IMO. As far as the "white boy, silver spoon comment, I'm a former white MC player (whose team beat SP and got a ring) and that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Madison is nice but if you think every player is an entitled, rich kid, you'd be mistaken.

Mike Justice (and Ted Taylor for that matter) didn't allow for soft.

[engie]

How did this "softness" you speak of magically manage to skip Jackson Prep and a bunch of others?

These coaches get the players for 6 years at most of these schools -- fielding a "soft" team is 100% on the coach and no one else.

[M.Fillmore]

Based purely on raw numbers shouldn't they have more like double St Andrews and Jackson Prep combined?

That is a common misconception. First, since MC is a public school they have to take all comers which includes those who will never attend college. I think its safe to say most everyone at Prep and SA are headed to college. Secondly the senior class at MC is 350. I'm rarely on those campuses but I'd guess that combined they are 200+, if not 250+ or more.

[Mutt the Hoople]

To be a top-notch program in High School football, you have to have a feeder system of coaches in Middle School, 9th Grade, and JV, who do one thing: Get players ready for the system. Out here in Texas, High School football is often as good as Division II. One of the reasons is that the big-time schools (and a lot of the smaller schools) work on football 24/7.

For example, you take game-planning for an upcoming game. Immediately after the previous game is concluded, the Middle school coaches will get the Tape (or files) of the game just played, and spend all night breaking them down into offense, defense, special teams, and miscellaneous. At 6 AM the next morning, the High School coaches will meet at the office, look at them, then grade them. The players come in to lift weights, run a little bit, or get treatment if they're injured.

After exchanging game files with the other team, the coaching staff will have a game plan for its opponent by Sunday night. On Monday, the team begins practice with the new game plan. In the meantime, the HS coaches also spend time between Tuesday (Middle School) and Thursday (JV) scouting the players coming up in the system. By Friday, the cycle starts all over again.

I bet something similar goes on at South Panola, and until other Mississippi Schools start implementing a system like this, they'll rarely beat them.

[Saltydog]

he was here at Amory, he won a ton of ball games and yes, "some" of those teams had great talent. However, he won a lot of games here w/o great talent. One of his better teams here ('98) won a State championship w/o a single D1 player on it..........Are there character issues with the man, certainly. But he's a heck'uva football coach and I'll argue that with anyone.......BTW, his son is going to be a d1 coach somewhere along the line......He's the real deal folks......I would've loved to have gotten him on the MSU staff......Kid can coach and knows this State.....

[War Machine Dawg]

The Madison crew is touchy, I see. Look, I was just making a point that the Madison kids just don't want it bad enough. They aren't willing to do the hard work it takes to win. Games are won in January-July, and MC is getting mauled by other programs during those months.

But the larger point I was making is that everyone is acting like MC has some huge, unending talent pool. I don't think that's the case. As I pointed out, they've split players with Ridgeland, Germantown, MRA, and at least one other school I'm forgetting. Unlike some other schools, MC doesn't have the yearly legacy players.

As for Bobby Hall, I'm not defending the guy. Far from it. Can't stand him, actually. It's well known he's an alcoholic. Schools that see their souls to hire him and clean up behind him deserve what they get. And for the record, yes, "soft" is at least partially on the coach. Culture change definitely has to start there. But don't pretend it isn't on the players, too. Some schools have kids who will never be soft regardless of the coach.

[Irondawg]

They've had a bunch of injuries to a lot of thier skill positions. I think they are now down to 3rd string qb and 4th string rb which has just made it very tough on the offense.

[MabenMaroon]

How did this "softness" you speak of magically manage to skip Jackson Prep and a bunch of others?

These coaches get the players for 6 years at most of these schools -- fielding a "soft" team is 100% on the coach and no one else.

Don't know if this exactly correlates with what you wrote; but several weeks ago H2H radio was doing a live remote at MC, I believe, and they had Coach Hall on for an interview. When asked about evaluating the division, He stated that Starkville is unbeatable, but we will put on the uniforms and go out there and see what happens. I can't think of one single coach anywhere who has ever made such a defeatist remark in public or to the media.

[CadaverDawg]

I don't buy the "rich boys are being out worked by the poor boys" argument one damn bit. I'm not a Madison fan or alum, but chances are the rich kids that don't want to work aren't playing football to begin with. In my opinion, their coaches have gotten lazy due to always being able to out-talent everybody else, and now they aren't doing that to such a great extent with the addition of Germantown, and their lack of being pushed is starting to show in a big way.

[gravedigger]

Your contention is that year in and year out Jackson prep can hang with their public school counterparts?

What is the size of JP 9-12?

[War Machine Dawg]

Your contention is that year in and year out Jackson prep can hang with their public school counterparts?

What is the size of JP 9-12?

I DARE JP and St. Andrews to line up against SP. Absolutely DARE them. SP would name their score.

[engie]

Your contention is that year in and year out Jackson prep can hang with their public school counterparts?

What is the size of JP 9-12?

Do we really have to go through this AGAIN?

Yes, that is exactly my contention. Prep hovers around 500 kids in 9th-12th grade. You place Prep against MHSAA contemporaries about their same size, listed here, and they will absolutely wreck shit. Even use the 1.3 multiplier that other states use to determine "fair" private school divisions -- and they are still wrecking shit.
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20141025-i4xk-69kb.jpg

Play them up one division -- and they are still competing for titles year in and year out. 6A they are not.

[engie]

I DARE JP and St. Andrews to line up against SP. Absolutely DARE them. SP would name their score.

Really, you "dare" Prep to line up with a school 250% it's size?

I DARE Noxapater high school to match up with vintage Hillcrest on the baseball field. DARE them**

[Drugdog]

You can break it down nine ways to Sunday. It starts at the top with the AD and head coach. Oh that means Hall.
Look no further than Miss. State.
New AD new Head Coach. Look at the results.

Problem solved

Btw- talk to most any parent of a player and they will tell you how bad ALL the coaches are. No coaching up. No development. This is from an ex D1 player fwiw.