Should MSU and Ole Miss fans really want each other's coach to leave?

[ShotgunDawg]

There is one thing I want more than the total and complete destruction of the Ole Miss football program and university, and that is for MSU to win and win big.

I realize that I am in the minority and perhaps I am the complete minority, but I think we have learned something over the past 5 years, and that is that MSU and Ole Miss both benefit from other team being successful. The two schools push each other, and a rising tide of competition lifts both ships. A good analogy to this is how sprinters always run faster times against other fast sprinters. If they ran by themselves, they would likely run a slower time.

Throughout both of our histories, it has been thought and accepted that both MSU and Ole Miss couldn't be successful at the same time because there simply wasn't enough talent to go around, but I think that is hogwash. The truth is that the schools have always had the ability to be successful at the same time, but lack of leadership, creativity, money, and technology made it very difficult to do so. The truth is that there has always been enough players in Mississippi, that when combined with a few key players from out of state, have the ability win big. Remember Mississippi is the state where Favre, McNair, Rice, Payton, Guy, Pinkston, etc... are all from, but none played for MSU or Ole Miss. The talent is here, but, unlike a few other states, you have to find it, seek it out, and correctly project and evaluate. With modern video, the internet, recruiting websites, etc... winning at the Misssissippi schools can be done. It just takes a little more effort, and creativity.

These last three weeks have made me realize why Alabama and Auburn have both been successful for so long. They simply push each other. It is rare that either team ever plays flat, because they are motivated by the other already winning that day. I would guess that for the past two weeks, Ole Miss has been a little more motivated in their games because MSU had already won that day and they didn't want to be embarrassed or out done. I also think MSU and it's fan base has felt some extra motivation to make sure that Ole Miss didn't out do us.

Therefore, it is my opinion, that while it may be a kick in the gut and uncomfortable, it is in the best interest of Mississippi State for Hugh Freeze to stay at Ole Miss and it is in the best interest of Ole Miss for Dan Mullen to stay at MSU. Competition brings out the best in everyone. It is why I have never had a problem discussing and comparing MSU to Ole Miss on a daily basis because it is due to these daily cat fights that both team's alumni bases, administrators, and universities have been pushed to get better and continue to raise the bar and push forward in an effort to get better and not be out done by the other school.

Competition is uncomfortable and not for the weak minded. A true rivalry causes heart break and struggle. However, ultimately, the lack of competition brings about apathy, laziness, and a lack of sense of urgency and bring with it poor decisions.

I hope Hugh and Dan stay at both schools for years to come, so that both MSU and Ole Miss can continue to move forward, push each other, and win championships. Let's have an Auburn/Alabama, Duke, UNC situation in this state. Ole Miss baseball became relevant because their fans got tired of being out done by MSU baseball and the ensuing competition, not only lifted Ole Miss but also lifted MSU to make the right baseball coaching hire and to invest in building a new stadium. The competition lifted both schools. It can be done in football as well.

[Coach34]

And this is why the guys on Bafoom think you're a troll. This is a continuation of that stupid ass thread they had going.

Our team in 2014 had zero to do with Freezus being hired and doing anything. Most of the guys starting for us were recruited before his Prophet acting ass was hired. He didn't push Mullen to do anything. We recruit the same way regardless. We run the same offense regardless. We run the same D regardless.

Only thing that has happened is that our team has grown up, our Dual threat QB developed, and we added a couple of elite players to the mix. Nothing more-nothing less

[ShotgunDawg]

And this is why the guys on Bafoom think you're a troll. This is a continuation of that stupid ass thread they has going.

Our team in 2014 had zero to do with Freezus being hired and doing anything. Most of the guys starting for us were recruited before his Phophet acting ass was hired. He didn't push Mullen to do anything. We recruit the same way regardless. We run the same offense regardless. We run the same D regardless.

Only thing that that has happened is that our team has grown up, our Dual threat QB developed, and we added a couple of elite players to the mix. Nothing more-nothing less

Whatever man....

I disagree and could care less what Bafoom thinks. I think competition is good and brings out he best in both. As a former coach, you should understand that, and, if you don't understand that, you were probably a sorry ass coach. Maybe that's why you don't coach anymore

Your correct, this year's team had nothing to do with Hugh Freeze, but I do believe that both universities have been pushed by the other to get better.

Lack of competition causes apathy.

[Coach34]

Don't get sassy mf'er

whether they are 3-9 or 9-3...it doesn't matter. It's still competition. And they aren't the only team we play- they are 1 of 12. aGAIN- we recruit the same, our strength program is the same, our offense is the same, and our D is the same no matter what their record is. What they do is no factor.

[ShotgunDawg]

Don't get sassy mf'er

whether they are 3-9 or 9-3...it doesn't matter. It's still competition. And they aren't the only team we play- they are 1 of 12. aGAIN- we recruit the same, our strength program is the same, our offense is the same, and our D is the same no matter what their record is. What they do is no factor.

It's a good debate

[starkvegasdawg]

If what you're saying is true then that means each school judges itself by the other. I don't think Mullen gives a crap about tsun until egg bowl week. If Oxford fell into a sink hole this afternoon and there was no more tsun, I think Mullen would work just as hard. He's competing for the west. Until this year that meant matching up with bama, auburn, and LSU. They are (were) the measuring stick for this conference. Not the holier than thou pricks in bow tie land.

[I seen it dawg]

Whatever man....

I disagree and could care less what Bafoom thinks. I think competition is good and brings out he best in both. As a former coach, you should understand that, and, if you don't understand that, you were probably a sorry ass coach. Maybe that's why you don't coach anymore

Your correct, this year's team had nothing to do with Hugh Freeze, but I do believe that both universities have been pushed by the other to get better.

Lack of competition causes apathy.

So if OM wasn't around we would be apathetic and not play as well? Is that what you are really saying?

[I seen it dawg]

It's a good debate

No it's not. There isn't one coach in the country that basis how they run their programs on another particular program. That's pee wee football shit and just doesn't happen. There is no debate with this subject.

[Coach34]

So if OM wasn't around we would be apathetic and not play as well? Is that what you are really saying?

Sounds like something an Ole Missus fan would say

[DancingRabbit]

I'll be happy to see the hypocrite up north leave, but I don't want to see him leave of his own accord to take a better job. I want to see him runnoft in 2-3 years.

[ShotgunDawg]

I knew I was in the minority

[ShotgunDawg]

Do you guys think that MSU's baseball program forced Ole Miss to step it up in that sport?

Then do you think Ole Miss' success in baseball forced MSU to return the favor?

[I seen it dawg]

Do you guys think that MSU's baseball program forced Ole Miss to step it up in that sport?

Then do you think Ole Miss' success in baseball forced MSU to return the favor?

No. Because neither schools coaches said, "oh shit they are getting better so I should try to be good now." This isn't some Podunk rec league sports. It's real, big business. Guys don't run programs to be motivated to be good just because another school close to them gets better. It just doesn't work that way. If there are guys that do it they don't last long.

[HoopsDawg]

I knew I was in the minority

Dude, you have had some pretty good posts lately, but you talk about Ole Missus way too much.

[I seen it dawg]

Dude, you have had some pretty good posts lately, but you talk about Ole Missus way too much.

Obsessed?

[Coach34]

I've clearly shown that this 2014 team was built 4-5 years ago. We're just now reaping the benefits of good recruiting, redshirting of large numbers of players, and development. It has zero...I repeat- ZERO- to do with Freezus or Ole missus.

Our new stadium had nothing to do with Ole Missus going to Omaha. Cohen was promised that when he was hired- and the process began when we punched our ticket for Omaha and the title series. We had architects and business leaders looking at plans and spitballing ideas for nearly a year before it was announced. aGAIN- nothing to do with what Ole Missus did.

[Dawg61]

I do think Shotgun is partially correct here at least with recruiting, social media, video department, the Junction and media relationships. We have been forced to step up our game in these areas by our peers and Ole Miss is our most direct peer. Coaching, developing players etc.. I don't think Ole Miss has had that much more influence on us than any other SEC school has. Facility upgrades, coaches salaries etc.. Ole Miss hasn't been the peer forcing us to keep up.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

om has been as bad as us in several areas and even worse in some...our improvement began we when got AD's who had vision and a coach that changed the culture of the whole university. It's ****ing blasphemy for anyone to try and take credit away from Mullen and co for building what we have now.

[Coach34]

I do think Shotgun is partially correct here at least with recruiting, social media, video department, the Junction and media relationships. We have been forced to step up our game in these areas by our peers and Ole Miss is our most direct peer. Coaching, developing players etc.. I don't think Ole Miss has had that much more influence on us than any other SEC school has. Facility upgrades, coaches salaries etc.. Ole Miss hasn't been the peer forcing us to keep up.

Every school tries to keep up facilities-wise and such. That's Captain Obvious stuff.

Shotgun's post specifically mentioned Freezus and what he is doing having an effect- and that is simply just not true

[Johnson85]

Um being good does not help MSU be good. MSU being good does not help UM be good. Either school being good stops the other from accepting being terrible.

There is a tiny grain of truth in what you are saying in that either school being good prevents the other from using size/money to justify subpar results. Neither Pete Boone nor LT would have lasted 5 years if they had not been AD's at the same time. Both schools having incompetent AD's allowed both schools to look at the other and say maybe this is the best we can do. Had Houston Nutt not been a much better coach than Crooms, Crooms might could have survived another year. Had MSU not been showing improvement, Nutt might could have survived another year. Had UM been 0-8 last year, I'm not sure Mullen's seat would have even been perceived as warm (even though it wasn't warm in reality, I think fans would have been more patient if UM didn't look to be trending up).

That said, this is not as important for UM as it is for MSU. They have issues with being delusional, so it might help them if State is down. They didn't need a decent state team to be calling for Cutcliff's head.

Also, it helps MSU not accept being bad, but UM being good still makes it harder for MSU to be good. Mullen has had incredible success identifying players with potential and developing them. No guarantee he can keep doing that, especially if LSU, Auburn, and Bama start paying attention when he makes na offer in their back yard. MSU may need to get a greater share of instate talent going forward.

Also, I'm not sure it matters anymore. Now that the SEC has separated itself and we have the money to compete, I don't think either fanbase will get content. Much more of a worry that they'll be too impatient and can a good coach too soon.

[TUSK]

I can't speak intelligently about this re: OM/MSU, but I do know this... When bammer or AU excels, the other tries a lil harder... & usually does better.

That being said, I wish AU would go no better than 10-3 forever.

[ShotgunDawg]

Um being good does not help MSU be good. MSU being good does not help UM be good. Either school being good stops the other from accepting being terrible.

There is a tiny grain of truth in what you are saying in that either school being good prevents the other from using size/money to justify subpar results. Neither Pete Boone nor LT would have lasted 5 years if they had not been AD's at the same time. Both schools having incompetent AD's allowed both schools to look at the other and say maybe this is the best we can do. Had Houston Nutt not been a much better coach than Crooms, Crooms might could have survived another year. Had MSU not been showing improvement, Nutt might could have survived another year. Had UM been 0-8 last year, I'm not sure Mullen's seat would have even been perceived as warm (even though it wasn't warm in reality, I think fans would have been more patient if UM didn't look to be trending up).

That said, this is not as important for UM as it is for MSU. They have issues with being delusional, so it might help them if State is down. They didn't need a decent state team to be calling for Cutcliff's head.

Also, it helps MSU not accept being bad, but UM being good still makes it harder for MSU to be good. Mullen has had incredible success identifying players with potential and developing them. No guarantee he can keep doing that, especially if LSU, Auburn, and Bama start paying attention when he makes na offer in their back yard. MSU may need to get a greater share of instate talent going forward.

Also, I'm not sure it matters anymore. Now that the SEC has separated itself and we have the money to compete, I don't think either fanbase will get content. Much more of a worry that they'll be too impatient and can a good coach too soon.

Outstanding post.

I think I agree with what you've said more than I agree with my initial post. Good discussion and you make some great points.

I think this run we are making should allow Mullen to have more success with out of state recruiting. I don't think that either OM or MSU will ever dominate recruiting a year to year basis enough to only rely soley on Mississippi players. As long as Alabama and Auburn only have 25 schollys, they simply cannot take everyone. If they now offer the in-state player that Mullen just offered, that means that there will now be another player without an Alabama or Auburn offer.

I think this recent run should allow us to make some headway in Texas, FL, and, hopefully, the Mid-Atlantic region.

[ShotgunDawg]

I can't speak intelligently about this re: OM/MSU, but I do know this... When bammer or AU excels, the other tries a lil harder... & usually does better.

That being said, I wish AU would go no better than 10-3 forever.

This is kind of what I meant. They both push each other, and thus both rise because it.

[ShotgunDawg]

I've clearly shown that this 2014 team was built 4-5 years ago. We're just now reaping the benefits of good recruiting, redshirting of large numbers of players, and development. It has zero...I repeat- ZERO- to do with Freezus or Ole missus.

Our new stadium had nothing to do with Ole Missus going to Omaha. Cohen was promised that when he was hired- and the process began when we punched our ticket for Omaha and the title series. We had architects and business leaders looking at plans and spitballing ideas for nearly a year before it was announced. aGAIN- nothing to do with what Ole Missus did.

Coach, I agree with what you've said here with these specific examples. I guess I am looking at this from a bigger picture. I think both MSU and Ole Miss pushing each other, benefits both schools.

[Dawg61]

Every school tries to keep up facilities-wise and such. That's Captain Obvious stuff.

Shotgun's post specifically mentioned Freezus and what he is doing having an effect- and that is simply just not true

Freezus has absolutely had an effect on MSU recruiting and how MSU and MSU fans interact on social media. We have an army online now because we have to and it's because of Ole Miss. To say Freezus hasn't had an effect on us in these two areas alone is just flat out lying and being stubborn.

[Irondawg]

I'm on the fence is I want Hugh to leave or not. I think his biggest strength is recruiting and so I think it's highly likely that whomever they hired would be worse in that area. But I don't think he's a great offensive coach and Wommack is way better than i ever thought he would be considering he was a bit of a retread.

On the flip side I think he's a shenanigans type of guy that could eventually bring some sort of hammer. But with the SEC getting more and more power of the NCAA I wouldn't hold my breath on anything. In the end I'd say I want the guy gone.

[Dawgcentral]

We stepped it up when we hired Jackie Sherrill. Billy Brewer saw the writing on the wall, knew he was going to be out-recruited and faced with solid coaching. So he went on the attack with the "habitual liar" comment. Brewer, who is a decent sort of guy, showed the fear.

Croom was a result of the mindset that we had to counter our lack of success with yet another Bear Bryant protege for great recruiting and a civil rights advancement. Orgeron's defensive line recruiting (helped by freeze in Memphis), built up plenty to humiliate Sylvester " I never saw that coming" Croom.

When CDM said "we're never going to lose to these guys" we was referring to the Nutt staff at OM. CDM was so far into Nutt's head that nothing short of a frontal lobotomy would eradicate the problem.

So....my conclusion is our actions have dictated theirs for quite some time. I think we could fall off the edge of the earth and they would not improve. But I also feel like they could do the same and we would continue to reach the heights that Mullen has set his sights on. We're the innovators in this state.

[Liverpooldawg]

And this is why the guys on Bafoom think you're a troll. This is a continuation of that stupid ass thread they has going.

Our team in 2014 had zero to do with Freezus being hired and doing anything. Most of the guys starting for us were recruited before his Prophet acting ass was hired. He didn't push Mullen to do anything. We recruit the same way regardless. We run the same offense regardless. We run the same D regardless.

Only thing that has happened is that our team has grown up, our Dual threat QB developed, and we added a couple of elite players to the mix. Nothing more-nothing less

THIS x 1000

[gravedigger]

The fallacy of false cause.

You have committed it.

You've fallen into the trap of thinking that players and coaches use fan's mentality to motivate themselves. They don't. They don't evaluate recruits that way. They don't evaluate game performance that way.

The reason a team wins is in the preparation and the proper implementation of personnel.

All this other shit is just window dressing and the only people shallow enough to believe it are ole miss fans.

[I seen it dawg]

The fallacy of false cause.

You have committed it.

You've fallen into the trap of thinking that players and coaches use fan's mentality to motivate themselves. They don't. They don't evaluate recruits that way. They don't evaluate game performance that way.

The reason a team wins is in the preparation and the proper implementation of personnel.

All this other shit is just window dressing and the only people shallow enough to believe it are ole miss fans.

Probably the post of the day. I should lock this thread but I want to see who the morons are that would try to argue or dispute this as false.

[RougeDawg]

Freezus has absolutely had an effect on MSU recruiting and how MSU and MSU fans interact on social media. We have an army online now because we have to and it's because of Ole Miss. To say Freezus hasn't had an effect on us in these two areas alone is just flat out lying and being stubborn.

The Bears could have Dr. Kevorkian coaching for them and they would still recruit the same, as long as he didn't get in the way. The head coach of OM is just a puppet of their machine. We now have an online army because under the Beaver Puppet, they expanded their high school draft beyond our state, and started buying players from around the nation. The only reason we have bonded together is we now have other fan bases who have had players bought out from under their noses, like we have for all these years. Everyone around the south and some of the mid west has now been subject to their shenannigans.

As far as their coach motivating our program or recruiting, it's plain and simple. F*CK NO. We recruit to win football games in the best conference in the nation. Nothing less, nothing more. Our coach has more influence on our program than theirs. We have a program built the correct way, and built to last.

I'm not attacking your post, but the OP is ridiculous and unnecessary. The only thing about OM that motivates us is they are an in conference that we need to beat in order to win one more game, and continue to dominate in state recruiting, no matter who their puppet is. Our main goal is to win football games. Beating them helps us in all facets of winning. I'm sure after Bucky bolts, Archie will have a full list of coaches who will "Turn thy cheek" while the alumni do the crootin.

We just need to keep Dan and keep doing things the way we do and we will be fine. We need to keep contributing as alumni, keep packing the house, and keep level heads when recruits don't choose us. We will get guys that fit in with our program and keep this thing rolling. Let's stay confident, keep the faith, and enjoy what we have going. There is no need to keep comparing ourselves to those arrogant pompous asshats. They will get theirs in due time.

[OurState]

Every school tries to keep up facilities-wise and such. That's Captain Obvious stuff.

Shotgun's post specifically mentioned Freezus and what he is doing having an effect- and that is simply just not true


I do think each school has gotten more press this year b/c both teams have been successful. Our brand has been strengthened by TSUN's success. Previously, I would not have thought that would be possible.

[I seen it dawg]

I do think each school has gotten more press this year b/c both teams have been successful. [B]Our brand has been strengthened by TSUN's success. Previously, I would not have thought that would be possible.

Huh? The **** it has. Our brand is strengthened by OUR success. Works the same for them. They are mutually exclusive.

[gravedigger]

Huh? The **** it has. Our brand is strengthened by OUR success. Works the same for them. They are mutually exclusive.

I smell a rat. The degree of WTF is off the charts.

[LiterallyPolice]

It's obvious to me that the main reason we are undefeated and #1 in the country is due to UM's historical 5th place finish in the west last year. ****

[Johnson85]

Huh? The **** it has. Our brand is strengthened by OUR success. Works the same for them. They are mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive but us being good at the same time significantly cuts down on the number of people that think the University of Ole Mississippi State Rebel Bulldogs have a damn good team this year.

[Johnson85]

The reason a team wins is in the preparation and the proper implementation of personnel.



Good things fans and donors have no impact on personnel. No possible way we tightened up our recruting game after the Mississippi "Grand Slam" (which is a hilarious name looking back at it). It's stupid to think that players and coaches train or prepare differently because of the success of probably the historically weakest team of the six intradivisional opponents. But it's also kind of stupid to think game prep is the only thing that goes into a college program. Who the coach is and what players they get is pretty much just as important.

[Coach34]

Our brand has been strengthened by TSUN's success. Previously, I would not have thought that would be possible.

No- if we were 3-3, people wouldnt be giving a **** about us with Ole Missus being 6-0. They would havebeen the only team on the SI cover. Our brand has grown because we are 6-0 with 3 top 10 wins in a row and talented, solid young man playing QB. What Ole Missus does has nothing to do with us.

[Homedawg]

The fallacy of false cause.

You have committed it.

You've fallen into the trap of thinking that players and coaches use fan's mentality to motivate themselves. They don't. They don't evaluate recruits that way. They don't evaluate game performance that way.

The reason a team wins is in the preparation and the proper implementation of personnel.

All this other shit is just window dressing and the only people shallow enough to believe it are ole miss fans.
Gravedigger, your best post ever!!!

[Dawgheadcheese]

THIS x 1000

No, THIS x 10,000

[Homedawg]

Good things fans and donors have no impact on personnel. No possible way we tightened up our recruting game after the Mississippi "Grand Slam" (which is a hilarious name looking back at it). It's stupid to think that players and coaches train or prepare differently because of the success of probably the historically weakest team of the six intradivisional opponents. But it's also kind of stupid to think game prep is the only thing that goes into a college program. Who the coach is and what players they get is pretty much just as important.
I think you help make the point by this post and mention of the Mississippi grand slam. That was under Nutt not freeze. Change the clown in the costume and the circus goes on no matter who has on the wig and big nose.

[Johnson85]

No- if we were 3-3, people wouldnt be giving a **** about us with Ole Missus being 6-0. They would havebeen the only team on the SI cover. Our brand has grown because we are 6-0 with 3 top 10 wins in a row and talented, solid young man playing QB. What Ole Missus does has nothing to do with us.

Our brand hasn't been strengthened but we've received some very marginal benefit exposurewise as a result of the whole "Magnolia State" angle. The way it's worked out, it's been basically irrelevant for us because you're going to get good exposure as the #1 team regardless, but we got some extra exposure before this week. It's been a much bigger deal for Ole Miss, as I'd guess they're getting a good bit more mentions as a number 3 team than they would without the novelty of having two Mississippi teams in the top 3.

And again, while I like for UM to be terrible, us both being on top does help remind people that there are actually two separate SEC teams from Mississippi. It's probably too much to ask for, but maybe if we both have successful teams this year people will even start to distinguish which campus was integrated with military force and which school ignored the orders of the Governor (who was a graduate of the other school) to play the game of change.

[Johnson85]

I think you help make the point by this post and mention of the Mississippi grand slam. That was under Nutt not freeze. Change the clown in the costume and the circus goes on no matter who has on the wig and big nose.

You're right, but not in the way that you think. UM having success ensures that MSU people don't get complacent. Anything Freeze has done is irrelevant to MSU's success because donors haven't really had a time to be complacent since he's been here. Hypothetically, if the program wasn't in good shape, *******' seat would definitely get a little hotter a little quicker because of a concern that UM was distancing itself from us. If Mullen was consistently going between 5-7 and 8-5, however much grumbling their might be, I think his job would be fairly secure if UM was consistently winning between 3 and 4 games a year over the same time frame. If UM is consistently winning 7 to 9 games a year, I think Strickln would get a lot more pressure from people that actually matter in one of Mullen's 5 win years.

And that's not completely crazy. UM is our closest peer in the West as far as resources and recruiting footprint and consistently outperforming them is a good sign that you are performing at least adequately. You just can't let that be the only thing you look at because you'll end up thinking your smouldering dumpster (LT) is ok simply because there aren't visible flames like at UM (Pete Boone).