Damn that Ross Mitchell sucked cock tonight.

[Requiem For A Dawg]

Right Will?

[Homedawg]

Right Will?

He was lucky tonight.

[Todd4State]

It would be pretty funny if Ross did a Sierra Mist ad on the scoreboard. Of course, I would probably be the only one who gets it in the stands, but...

[Will James]

I didn't particularly enjoy the single and double to start the 7th. Glad their coach sent him with no outs, that would have been run number 5. He did good to get the out when he came in though.

Also I don't understand the Will thinks Ross sucks meme. I think he is about on par with everyone else in our bullpen. On par. If Lindgren or Porter has a big game I'm not going to come here and play the nanny nanny boo boo game or the next time Renfroe gets a hit with RISP. Same concept.

[Requiem For A Dawg]

Well he did lead the team in K's last night, probably has been reading your advice online.

[Will James]

Well he did lead the team in K's last night, probably has been reading your advice online.

Good. His K rate is down 25% from last year.

[The Croom Diaries]

Also I don't understand the Will thinks Ross sucks meme. I think he is about on par with everyone else in our bullpen. On par.

For the last 36 hours you've been in a twitter spat about how Mitchell's stats mean nothing and you'd rather have Girado or C.T. If you'd rather have other people in the game than our leader in wins and a guy who has the same ERA as Girado but 125% more IP and you are afraid of what would happen if we bring him in during critical situations then you don't think he's on par with the rest of our league-leading bullpen.

Then you start a post on here about how people just want to defend Mitchell because of our blind allegiances to baseball players and aren't recognizing that he's not that great based on your set of advanced stats.

Most of us are proud that Mitchell and glad that his name is among the league leaders. Instead you want to bring him down and say he needs to get better. He is what he is - a crafty lefty. He isn't going to develop a 90 mph fastball over night. I find what he is able to do with his abilities remarkable. We all know he doesn't have Holder or Bracewell's stuff. But we do know he's a winner and he plays damn good for the maroon and white. I'm glad he's on our team and I hope he's at the top of Cohen's list to pitch in every big game we play from here on out.

[Will James]

I agree with most of that. On par doesn't mean same in every situation. I put my opinion out there that we use him in the wrong situations a lot which got turned into "WJ thinks he sucks" by the unthinking people.

Also I think we look at the wrong stats. Because I dismiss ERA outright the rubes say "Oh WJ thinks Ross sucks because he doesnt like his low ERA". Any reliever coming in with outs on the board will have a lower ERA nnaturally which is why it's a bullshit stat. Same with pitcher wins and losses. Is Graveman the worst starter because he had the most losses? No. I'm not proud of anything regarding wins losses and ERA because I don't believe in those as measuring sticks. I'm not going to fake proudness in a 9-0 record if I don't think the pitcher record means anything.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

Bench mitchell for lindgren and let renfroe bat with the game on the line. That is what the formula says. Yall are all ****ing stupid if you cant see that

[The Croom Diaries]

I'm not going to fake proudness in a 9-0 record if I don't think the pitcher record means anything.

You don't have to be "fake proud" about anything. There's just no use in bashing his statistics - stats that everyone uses. I don't see any of your FIBA or SIERA or MSODFIU stats on MLB.com - which if we're going to be seeing those stats on the backs of baseball cards in 5 years I would assume they'd have them somewhere, right?

Maybe you don't mean to bash Mitchell, but that's how it comes off to almost everyone reading. You are terrible at arguing, which is unfortunate since it's your favorite past time even ahead of sabermetrics. Your goal seems to be to get people to buy in to this way of thinking about baseball. If that's the case, then have an introduction, body and conclusion of your thought process and why/how it matters rather than simply thinking we should all buy in and if we don't we are morons stuck in the 1960s.

[Will James]

You don't have to be "fake proud" about anything. There's just no use in bashing his statistics - stats that everyone uses. I don't see any of your FIBA or SIERA or MSODFIU stats on MLB.com - which if we're going to be seeing those stats on the backs of baseball cards in 5 years I would assume they'd have them somewhere, right?

Fangraphs.com Great site.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=21,a



Maybe you don't mean to bash Mitchell, but that's how it comes off to almost everyone reading.

That's not my problem. Again it seems that people jump at the slightest opportunity to jump in and defend baseball players as opposed to football and basketball. Coach has a good point about Stansbury being a good correlation but that was a coach. Dee Bost won a ton of games yet has been identified as a cancer multiple times. A cancer, all I am doing is putting numbers out there. I don't know any of our baseball players, don't really care to. Me talking about Ross' numbers and stats is just me talking about random roster number 48's numbers. There is nothing personal on my side, but there definitely is in area's of the other side.


Your goal seems to be to get people to buy in to this way of thinking about baseball.

Yes and I guarantee I've been successful in changing how some people watch our games.

[Bullmutt]

As long as he (and all the others in the pen) are contributing to WINNING efforts, I don't care what the individual stats say. Ultimately, W's vs. L's is the only stat that counts.

[The Croom Diaries]

That's not my problem. Again it seems that people jump at the slightest opportunity to jump in and defend baseball players as opposed to football and basketball. Coach has a good point about Stansbury being a good correlation but that was a coach. Dee Bost won a ton of games yet has been identified as a cancer multiple times. A cancer, all I am doing is putting numbers out there. I don't know any of our baseball players, don't really care to. Me talking about Ross' numbers and stats is just me talking about random roster number 48's numbers. There is nothing personal on my side, but there definitely is in area's of the other side.



It is your problem. If you can't lay out a complete thought that allows other people to actually understand what point you are trying to convey, then you aren't doing it right. You keep saying we are misunderstanding you - the people reading aren't all dumb and you are smart. If most people aren't getting what you are trying to say, then you aren't explaining it well enough.

Your conclusion that people just want to defend Mitchell is not accurate. Is anyone defending Sam Frost? Everyone says there is no way in hell he should get on the field yet he has a batting average well over .300 and is hitting almost .350 in SEC play. If we were all smitten by those stats wouldn't we defend him since he's a baseball player?

The plain simple fact is more people don't buy into this theory about Ross Mitchell than do. The percentage of people who think sabermetrics trumps ERA and batting average is very low. You harping that one of our best pitchers isn't really as good as we think he is just makes you look like an idiot, not make us want to buy into your outside the box statistical analysis.

[Requiem For A Dawg]

Any reliever coming in with outs on the board will have a lower ERA nnaturally which is why it's a bullshit stat.

Come on dude. He's 3rd on the team in innings pitched. Quit acting like Cohen brings him in with 2 outs to face lefty, then yanks him.

[Will James]

Come on dude. He's 3rd on the team in innings pitched. Quit acting like Cohen brings him in with 2 outs to face lefty, then yanks him.

I look at the SEC numbers. He has been on the mound when 13 runs have been scored not attributed to him. That's why I look at what have you as a pitcher done vs hitters at the plate. Not things like earned runs that rely on others and certainly not pitcher W's and L's.

[Todd4State]

I agree with most of that. On par doesn't mean same in every situation. I put my opinion out there that we use him in the wrong situations a lot which got turned into "WJ thinks he sucks" by the unthinking people.

Also I think we look at the wrong stats. Because I dismiss ERA outright the rubes say "Oh WJ thinks Ross sucks because he doesnt like his low ERA". Any reliever coming in with outs on the board will have a lower ERA nnaturally which is why it's a bullshit stat. Same with pitcher wins and losses. Is Graveman the worst starter because he had the most losses? No. I'm not proud of anything regarding wins losses and ERA because I don't believe in those as measuring sticks. I'm not going to fake proudness in a 9-0 record if I don't think the pitcher record means anything.


No- we think Will James thinks Ross sucks because you keep putting out a stat that you say proclaims that Ross is lucky and then tweet it out to him.

[Will James]

No- we think Will James thinks Ross sucks because you keep putting out a stat that you say proclaims that Ross is lucky and then tweet it out to him.

Thats a lie. Luck is a statistical phrnomenonen not an insult and I have never tweeted at any player in my life

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

No- we think Will James thinks Ross sucks because you keep putting out a stat that you say proclaims that Ross is lucky and then tweet it out to him.

As a lot of you know and a lot of you will learn in life, it is better to be lucky than good.

Dude has thrown over 60 innings and had a 1.2 era. Period. Of course players like lindgren have first round potential. So did renardo sidney. Ill take brandon vincent over sidney all day.

[Todd4State]

Thats a lie. Luck is a statistical phrnomenonen not an insult and I have never tweeted at any player in my life

Someone may have retweeted or sent it to him- regardless he saw it and found out about it.

And whether you want to believe it or not, when you say something about someone who is working their ass and or requires some degreeof talent to be good at something and say that they are "lucky"- yes, it's an insult.

[Todd4State]

As a lot of you know and a lot of you will learn in life, it is better to be lucky than good.

Dude has thrown over 60 innings and had a 1.2 era. Period. Of course players like lindgren have first round potential. So did renardo sidney. Ill take brandon vincent over sidney all day.

Very true. It's about making it count when it counts.

[Hump4Hoops]

The reason people rag on you so much is because you enjoy doing things in the most "PLEASE LOOK AT MEEEEEE!!!!!" way possible.

[FFF]

Thats a lie. Luck is a statistical phrnomenonen not an insult and I have never tweeted at any player in my life

People have no respect for you or your opinion because you don't listen and consider all perspectives, instead, you find some facts that support YOUR perspective and act like an ass simply to be "right."

Ross is 9-0 and, aside from a few outings, has done a phenomenal job at taking his abilities an using them in an effective way. Instead of saying "Ross has been extremely effective, hell he had 9 wins, but here's an area of improvement he might look at.." you spout off, and I quote, "wins and era are meaningless stats... My stats will be on the backs of baseball cards because all those others are outdated." Even if the points are the same, that's why no one listens to you.

I know you won't listen to me at all, but if you'd consider a few other perspectives other than your own (limited) perspective and not all out attack everyone who disagrees with your (limited) perspective, you might get a little more respect...

[Will James]

Someone may have retweeted or sent it to him- regardless he saw it and found out about it.

And whether you want to believe it or not, when you say something about someone who is working their ass and or requires some degreeof talent to be good at something and say that they are "lucky"- yes, it's an insult.

Wainwright had one of the highest BABIP's in baseball last year. Mike Minor ha one of the lowest. Saying Minor was lucky and Wainwright unlucky is a stat not an insult. Despite both working very hard. Quit this coddling of baseball players. We are talking about a damn statistic. Nobody coddles football or basketball players but for some reason it becomes personal when baseball players are discussed. It became personal to the guy I was debating on twitter Becuase he ttweeted at Ross saying "This guy thinks your just lucky and not any good" when nothing can be further from the truth. Dee Bost has repeatedly been described as a cancer and nobody said anything. He's one of The winningest players we've ever had. I give my statistical opinion of our baseball team and people go bonkers. It's pathetic. It's like some people don't consider it major college athletics so criticism should be kept minimum. Well I disagree and if a stat offends anyone it doesn't bother me in the least.

[The Croom Diaries]

No Will, you didn't say this stat suggest he may be lucky, you say he is lucky. After watching him for 2 years, we know he is not just lucky. Your stats are wrong. You come off as a baseball nerd who doesn't know much about the game, only how to analyze stats.

You keep reverting to people not wanting to criticize baseball players. You ignored my comment about Sam Frost. Why do we criticize him when he has such good stats? He is on the BASEBALL team right?

[Will James]

No Will, you didn't say this stat suggest he may be lucky, you say he is lucky. After watching him for 2 years, we know he is not just lucky. Your stats are wrong. You come off as a baseball nerd who doesn't know much about the game, only how to analyze stats.

You keep reverting to people not wanting to criticize baseball players. You ignored my comment about Sam Frost. Why do we criticize him when he has such good stats? He is on the BASEBALL team right?

Ross has come into the game 12 times in league play with runners on base. 7 of those times he has allowed runs to score, totaling 13 runs. That does not show up in ERA. It does show up in FIP and SIERA. I don't know why this is ignored.

[WeWillScrewItUp]

Ross has come into the game 12 times in league play with runners on base. 7 of those times he has allowed runs to score, totaling 13 runs. That does not show up in ERA. It does show up in FIP and SIERA. I don't know why this is ignored.

I'm curious if you could tell me of those 13 runs how many were on 3rd base or just in scoring position when he came in and how many outs we had. Like I said I'm just curious.

[Will James]

I'm curious if you could tell me of those 13 runs how many were on 3rd base or just in scoring position when he came in and how many outs we had. Like I said I'm just curious.

I believe I listed them in another thread. I also believe the point of a reliever is to shut that situation down in most cases. Not give up runs in 58% of them. That's why we need high strikeout options, that situation is not suitable for Ross which is my entire point. ERA reflects none of that.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

No Will, you didn't say this stat suggest he may be lucky, you say he is lucky. After watching him for 2 years, we know he is not just lucky. Your stats are wrong. You come off as a baseball nerd who doesn't know much about the game, only how to analyze stats.

You keep reverting to people not wanting to criticize baseball players. You ignored my comment about Sam Frost. Why do we criticize him when he has such good stats? He is on the BASEBALL team right?

Slow clap. Wonder what wills vcash account looks like from the betting page.

I can see will being a coach that goes .500 every year and loses to an inferior coach who just goes on instinct. Will has all the charts so he will never accept that he is wrong.

Kind of like him with the renfroe deal and runners in scoring position. If you could pick anyone on the team to hit with the game on the line, he would pick renfroe. Yet, renfroe is least clutch on the team, no matter what a chart says.


Just watch all the games and see who the baseball players are. Mitchell isnt a great pitcher. He probably wont even sniff minor league ball but he is a ******* baseball player. That is what I want. Judge by how they play

[Will James]

You are correct, I would pick Renfroe. How stupid of me*

[swdawg]

And here we go...some things never change.

[Coach34]

Will James is a closet Rebel and wants us to lose.
Will James would rather be right than us win
Will James is an arrogant prick douche
Will James just cherry picks stats to make our team look bad
Why does Will James hate Mitchell so much? I think Mitchell ****ed Will James girlfriend

(It's fun to do it to other people now)

[swdawg]

Will James has a girlfriend?


Will James is a closet Rebel and wants us to lose.
Will James would rather be right than us win
Will James is an arrogant prick douche
Will James just cherry picks stats to make our team look bad
Why does Will James hate Mitchell so much? I think Mitchell ****ed Will James girlfriend

(It's fun to do it to other people now)

[Randy1375]

Requiem posts on here? Whats up Requiem?

[Homedawg]

Ross has come into the game 12 times in league play with runners on base. 7 of those times he has allowed runs to score, totaling 13 runs. That does not show up in ERA. It does show up in FIP and SIERA. I don't know why this is ignored.

Of course it doesn't show up on era, he didn't let the f-ing guy on base! He, however, is responsible those he faces. Why is his era not high? Because people ate bailing him out of jams he created? Hell no. He's third in innings pitched so that's not it.

[Will James]

Of course it doesn't show up on era, he didn't let the f-ing guy on base! He, however, is responsible those he faces. Why is his era not high? Because people ate bailing him out of jams he created? Hell no. He's third in innings pitched so that's not it.

So let him start innings in long relief but use someone else to get out of jams. Which is my point. Again. When you come into jams your job is to get out of them. He's not been great at that because his doesn't K people. The reason we change pitchers is because the current one is on pace to let those runners score. What's the point of changing pitchers if the next guy lets them in.

[Todd4State]

Wainwright had one of the highest BABIP's in baseball last year. Mike Minor ha one of the lowest. Saying Minor was lucky and Wainwright unlucky is a stat not an insult. Despite both working very hard. Quit this coddling of baseball players. We are talking about a damn statistic. Nobody coddles football or basketball players but for some reason it becomes personal when baseball players are discussed. It became personal to the guy I was debating on twitter Becuase he ttweeted at Ross saying "This guy thinks your just lucky and not any good" when nothing can be further from the truth. Dee Bost has repeatedly been described as a cancer and nobody said anything. He's one of The winningest players we've ever had. I give my statistical opinion of our baseball team and people go bonkers. It's pathetic. It's like some people don't consider it major college athletics so criticism should be kept minimum. Well I disagree and if a stat offends anyone it doesn't bother me in the least.

Who is coddling Ross? If anything, you coddle Jacob Lindgren with the exact same stat despite the obvious fact that he simply isn't performing all that well.

I'm TELLING you how people are perceiving what you are saying and why they are saying that. In your mind, you think it's because people are somehow refusing to accept sabermetrics. It's because you said that a guy that is reasonably performing well for us and has done nothing to warrant criticism for performance is lucky.

The fact that BABIP's poster boy is a guy that was recovering from Tommy John surgery last year should tell you something. I can tell you that Wainwright wasn't sharp at all at the beginning of the year- but that had nothing to with luck as much as it had to do with recovering from a major arm surgery. In all honesty, the Cardinals rushed him back a little bit. He performed much like the old Adam Wainwright the second half of the year. EVERYONE in baseball knew he was going to be good in 2013 no matter what metric you used.

And again, yes by saying Mike Minor was lucky you are insinuating that he isn't all that good which yes, is an insult at him.

[The Croom Diaries]

So let him start innings in long relief but use someone else to get out of jams. Which is my point. Again. When you come into jams your job is to get out of them. He's not been great at that because his doesn't K people. The reason we change pitchers is because the current one is on pace to let those runners score. What's the point of changing pitchers if the next guy lets them in.

This is so confusing. I thought we were comparing him to Lindgren who is a starting pitcher.

First he was lucky, now he is good but just don't bring him in with runners on base.

Ok. I think I have your logic down. So - Mitchell isn't a strikeout pitcher so he shouldn't be brought in during those situations but he is good to go if starting off an inning. But I am afraid to criticize baseball players unlike basketball and football. Just one question, who's call is it to bring in Mitchell with runners on base? Next time it happens, should I yell at Ross and say "HEY MITCHELL YOU SUCK WHY ARE YOU COMING INTO THE GAME WITH RUNNERS ON WE TOLD YOU TO WAIT UNTIL THE NEXT INNING"?

[Will James]

Dont take it to the extreme ends Todd. A really low BABIP means some luck is involved not that it's "all luck and no talent". Lance Lynn had a high one. Cliff Lee had a high one. Max Scherzer had a high one. Matt Cain had a low one. It's not an insult.

What Im not saying: Mike Minor is just lucky that's all
what I am saying: With a low BABIP, Minors Numbers are improved based on the luck factor.

If you can't see the difference, which you seemingly can't, I don't know what to tell you.

[Will James]

Ok. I think I have your logic down. So - Mitchell isn't a strikeout pitcher so he shouldn't be brought in during those situations but he is good to go if starting off an inning.

I don't know why that was so hard.

[The Croom Diaries]

I don't know why that was so hard.

Then your whole critique is on Cohen for bringing Ross in with runners on rather than Ross himself. Yet you lambast people for claiming Ross is one of the SEC's most effective pitchers saying we are afraid to criticize a baseball player.

If your point from the start was runners on when he comes in people would agree, but you keep changing your responses and blaming Ross rather than Cohen.

[Will James]

Then your whole critique is on Cohen for bringing Ross in with runners on rather than Ross himself. Yet you lambast people for claiming Ross is one of the SEC's most effective pitchers saying we are afraid to criticize a baseball player.

If your point from the start was runners on when he comes in people would agree, but you keep changing your responses and blaming Ross rather than Cohen.

There are two issues. It's absolutely on Cohen on when pitchers come in. But when you are in the game giving up runs hurting other's pitchers ERA I'm going to state the obvious and say "Hey he has a low ERA, but there are 13 runs in SEC games alone he has given up (because Cohen brings in a contact pitcher with runners all over the pond) that are skewing his data."

The question of low ERA yet high opponents batting average and on base % can be answered by this. He has tons of innings logged, and I'm sure he has a very low ERA on just innings he has started. Ground ball pitchers are optimal and effective, just not when ducks are on the pond because balls in play means runs crossing the plate.

[Homedawg]

So let him start innings in long relief but use someone else to get out of jams. Which is my point. Again. When you come into jams your job is to get out of them. He's not been great at that because his doesn't K people. The reason we change pitchers is because the current one is on pace to let those runners score. What's the point of changing pitchers if the next guy lets them in.

I give up. The point is the reason his era is low is because he doesn't allow his runners score. Thats the the way it works!!! Lucky bastard.

[Todd4State]

Dont take it to the extreme ends Todd. A really low BABIP means some luck is involved not that it's "all luck and no talent". Lance Lynn had a high one. Cliff Lee had a high one. Max Scherzer had a high one. Matt Cain had a low one. It's not an insult.

What Im not saying: Mike Minor is just lucky that's all
what I am saying: With a low BABIP, Minors Numbers are improved based on the luck factor.

If you can't see the difference, which you seemingly can't, I don't know what to tell you.

Extremes? Come again?

Maybe you should take that up with the guy that chose a pitcher recovering from Tommy John surgery as their prime example of their stat being valid.


You are the one that said Minor was lucky is a stat, not an insult. I simply said it was just as insulting as saying Ross was lucky. I'm not sure what is so "extreme" about that?

[Will James]

The extremes as in looking on a spectrum. You act like I'm on the extreme saying oh its just luck. Where I'm in the middle saying BABIP just inflates or deflates the 'Real' stats of where a pitcher is.

[Todd4State]

There are two issues. It's absolutely on Cohen on when pitchers come in. But when you are in the game giving up runs hurting other's pitchers ERA I'm going to state the obvious and say "Hey he has a low ERA, but there are 13 runs in SEC games alone he has given up (because Cohen brings in a contact pitcher with runners all over the pond) that are skewing his data."

The question of low ERA yet high opponents batting average and on base % can be answered by this. He has tons of innings logged, and I'm sure he has a very low ERA on just innings he has started. Ground ball pitchers are optimal and effective, just not when ducks are on the pond because balls in play means runs crossing the plate.

No- those pitchers are hurting their own ERA by letting those runners on in the first place.

[swdawg]

This thread is so "SixPackSpeak".

[Will James]

No- those pitchers are hurting their own ERA by letting those runners on in the first place.

So if you are a middle reliever it's ok if your inherited runners score, just as long as you hitter doesn't? Not buying it.

[Todd4State]

The extremes as in looking on a spectrum. You act like I'm on the extreme saying oh its just luck. Where I'm in the middle saying BABIP just inflates or deflates the 'Real' stats of where a pitcher is.


Then why even use the stat? It seems to me to be sketchy at best. You're talking about some good pitchers that have some numbers all over the board that are without a doubt productive. When you have something that scattered, to me, it makes the stat unreliable.

[Todd4State]

So if you are a middle reliever it's ok if your inherited runners score, just as long as you hitter doesn't? Not buying it.

It's just as OK for the first pitcher to let them on and put the reliever in a shitty situation right? I'm not buying that.

If Ross comes in and gets a double play and minimizes the damage and keeps us in the game and keeps them from having a big inning (3 runs or more) then, yeah- he did an OK job. Would I prefer him to not allow his inherited runners to score? Of course. But let's face it, when runners are on and it's a jam, odds are good that the other team is going to get something out of it. If you don't believe me, look at the stats for situations with the bases loaded, runners on the corners, etc. whatever sitauation you want with less than two outs. You just don't want it to be a big inning.

That's what a middle reliever does- he minimizes damage. He gets you out of the inning and keeps you in the game.

And you know what? I guarantee you that every single time Ross has allowed an inherited runner to score- you could go up to whomever the pitcher was before him and he would say "You know what, it's my fault the guy was on in the first place."