Summer Baseball Updates

[Pioneer Dawg]

Pioneer you still haven't answered this...

The 4th-5th best hitter should hit 3rd because of the propensity to come up with nobody on and 2 outs.. It would be a waste to have your masher hit here. I think I said this earlier..

ctrl C ctrl V

[I seen it dawg]

Can you prove where the most "dangerous" hitter is most productive hitting 3rd?

It's a combination of talent and probability. Typically your most dangerous hitter is going to be the most likely guy to hit for gap power, high average, have plate discipline. Normally it's the player with the most hitting talent with the ability to drive in runs. It's probable that throughout a 9 inning game the 3 hole hitter will come to the plate with the opportunity to do the most damage and because of his talent the most likely to do damage when given the opportunity. Most dangerous.

Why would you hit your 4th-5th BEST hitter in the 3 hole? I answered yours even though you have avoided mine this entire evening...

[Homedawg]

And what will James wrote AFTER following 3 years of Msu baseball and a fall, I suppose, he wanted Wes rea hitting 4th. Who, by his account, was our best overall and power hitter, based on being put 4th. (Or that could have been generally, not sure). After one fall, Daniel garner and his 18%k rate he was the new nature boy and got screwed out of playing time. Even after striking out 21 times in 46ab's and 9 of 12 in sec play. I just need to know which book to follow, the one that said prior to the season, which also said vickerson was a stud, or the post season one that says garner got screwed?

[I seen it dawg]

The 4th-5th best hitter should hit 3rd because of the propensity to come up with nobody on and 2 outs.. It would be a waste to have your masher hit here. I think I said this earlier..

ctrl C ctrl V

So your masher is your BEST hitter? What do you define as your masher? I'm gonna guess it's your 4 hole hitter....by your logic for the 3 hole wouldn't it be very counter productive to have your BEST hitter your MASHER leading off an inning in the 4 hole?

[Pioneer Dawg]

most hitting talent with the ability to drive in runs. It's probable that throughout a 9 inning game the 3 hole hitter will come to the plate with the opportunity to do the most damage and because of his talent the most likely to do damage when given the opportunity. Most dangerous.

Why would you hit your 4th-5th BEST hitter in the 3 hole? I answered yours even though you have avoided mine this entire evening...

Why wouldn't you want your most dangerous hitter hitting 1st then?

The 4th-5th best hitter should hit 3rd because of the propensity to come up with nobody on and 2 outs.. It would be a waste to have your masher hit here. I think I said this earlier..

ctrl C ctrl V... aGAIN

[Homedawg]

It's a combination of talent and probability. Typically your most dangerous hitter is going to be the most likely guy to hit for gap power, high average, have plate discipline. Normally it's the player with the most hitting talent with the ability to drive in runs. It's probable that throughout a 9 inning game the 3 hole hitter will come to the plate with the opportunity to do the most damage and because of his talent the most likely to do damage when given the opportunity. Most dangerous.

Why would you hit your 4th-5th BEST hitter in the 3 hole? I answered yours even though you have avoided mine this entire evening...

Makes sense considering you are giving up 20 abs in a season. One a week. And that one might be a hr, probably didn't matter though***

[Pioneer Dawg]

So your masher is your BEST hitter?

Sure

[Pioneer Dawg]

Makes sense considering you are giving up 20 abs in a season. One a week. And that one might be a hr, probably didn't matter though***

A solo HR

[Homedawg]

A solo HR

Last time I checked a solo hr counts doesn't it? How many games end by a run? The difference between making the playoffs and not! Stupid ****ing statement idiot

[I seen it dawg]

A solo HR

The 3 hole guy is just as likely to hit a solo...as long as you don't put your 4th-5th BEST hitter there

[TheRef]

Earlier you said 0.3 RPG is a big deal but a solo HR a week is bad? Sureeeee.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Last time I checked a solo hr counts doesn't it? How many games end by a run? The difference between making the playoffs and not! Stupid ****ing statement idiot

I'd rather my most dangerous bat hit with the most men possible on base

[Pioneer Dawg]

Earlier you said 0.3 RPG is a big deal but a solo HR a week is bad? Sureeeee.

You have better reading comprehension than this...

[I seen it dawg]

So your masher is your BEST hitter? What do you define as your masher? I'm gonna guess it's your 4 hole hitter....by your logic for the 3 hole wouldn't it be very counter productive to have your BEST hitter your MASHER leading off an inning in the 4 hole?

Pioneer you haven't touched this one...

[I seen it dawg]

I'd rather my most dangerous bat hit with the most men possible on base

Holy shit that is right....

[Pioneer Dawg]

Pioneer you haven't touched this one...

You said "masher = best hitter"... I said "sure"... You have failed to actually read previous posts like 4 times this thread

[Pioneer Dawg]

Holy shit that is right....

Which... is.... cleanup....

[TheRef]

Time to battle you stats vs. stats. This says that the 4-hole has the most PA with runners on base and has the highest percentage of PAs with runners on base.

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/10/12/3490578/lineup-optimization-part-1-of-2

[Pioneer Dawg]

Time to battle you stats vs. stats. This says that the 4-hole has the most PA with runners on base and has the highest percentage of PAs with runners on base.

http://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2012/10/12/3490578/lineup-optimization-part-1-of-2

I agree.. as noted by my post before this... or were you responding to I See It

[DudyDawg]

You have better reading comprehension than this...

Typical response

[TheRef]

I agree.. as noted by my post before this... or were you responding to I See It

No I was responding to you. You said that the 3-hole should have the best hitter on your team. This suggests that the 3-hole should be worse than the 2 and 4-hole.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Typical response

20 extra plate appearances will ALL result in home runs? He said a HR a week...

[I seen it dawg]

You said "masher = best hitter"... I said "sure"... You have failed to actually read previous posts like 4 times this thread

I like it...you focus it on what the definition of masher is and it's 4 hole which I assumed it was and said that and avoid the whole point of the post..stay with me here...Now...by your 3 hole logic of putting your 4th-5th BEST hitter in the 3 hole because of the fear of hitting with no one on with 2 outs and you don't want to waste your best hitter there, wouldn't it be equally as bad to have your BEST hitter, your MASHER leading off an inning?

So do you just make a wild guess every game to try to predict where to put your best guy every game? (Don't focus on this just yet, answer the previous question first)

[Pioneer Dawg]

No I was responding to you. You said that the 3-hole should have the best hitter on your team. This suggests that the 3-hole should be worse than the 2 and 4-hole.

You clearly have not read this thread at all... This is why the quote feature is so key... You are agreeing with me here and do not even know it...

[TheRef]

You clearly have not read this thread at all... This is why the quote feature is so key... You are agreeing with me here and do not even know it...

I've misread and I apologize.

[Pioneer Dawg]

wouldn't it be equally as bad to have your BEST hitter, your MASHER leading off an inning?

No it would be a huge benefit to the next inning..

You want Miguel Cabrera hitting with nobody on and 2 outs.. Hardly a good chance of scoring....
I want him either hitting with somebody on OR leading off the next inning.. Win-win..

[Pioneer Dawg]

I've misread and I apologize.

Easy mistake but I like your thinking on the issue with that link

[Pioneer Dawg]

So do you just make a wild guess every game to try to predict where to put your best guy every game?

If you're Fredi Gonzalez.

Other's use the statistical information

[TheRef]

Easy mistake but I like your thinking on the issue with that link

Comprehensive stats with explanation.

[Homedawg]

Easy mistake but I like your thinking on the issue with that link

It's clearly worked for the blue jays for the last 8 Years.

[TheRef]

It's clearly worked for the blue jays

That's just a fan's statistical analysis of it. Doesn't mean the teams use it.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Comprehensive stats with explanation.

Thats how I try to post

[I seen it dawg]

No it would be a huge benefit to the next inning..

You want Miguel Cabrera hitting with nobody on and 2 outs.. Hardly a good chance of scoring....
I want him either hitting with somebody on OR leading off the next inning.. Win-win..

By your logic he leads off the inning more than hitting with men on. Because of the fear of the guys in front of him getting out. Your best on base guy hits in front of the 3hole guy which. Why would your 3 hole guy be your 4th-5th BEST hitter? Wouldn't you want someone better hitting behind your top on base guy and your masher? I still haven't gotten an explanation on that

[DudyDawg]

20 extra plate appearances will ALL result in home runs? He said a HR a week...

The hell are you talking about? Did I mention anything to do w home runs, baseball, anything!??

[Homedawg]

That's just a fan's statistical analysis of it. Doesn't mean the teams use it.

Well that's how will explained how the a's were leading the league in runs. Even though it's a "small sample"

[Pioneer Dawg]

It's clearly worked for the blue jays

They're the 4th highest scoring team in baseball.

I see you've changed your quote now because you probably looked this info up

[Homedawg]

The hell are you talking about? Did I mention anything to do w home runs, baseball, anything!??

You didn't, I mentioned the 20 extra plate appearances and never said they were all home runs. The bastard can't read

[Pioneer Dawg]

The hell are you talking about? Did I mention anything to do w home runs, baseball, anything!??

You said typical response

The response was saying Ref misred something

I told you where Ref misread something to which I provided a "typical response"

I'm debating 3-4 people and I can follow it just fine...

[Homedawg]

They're the 4th highest scoring team in baseball.

I see you've changed your quote now because you probably looked this info up

No I changed it bc I saw when it was written dipshit. Just proving they haven't won shit this year, last year, nor the last 8. Thanks for playing

[I seen it dawg]

I'm going to bed. I don't think there is an explanation you will give on why your 4th-5th BEST hitter would get stuck in the 3 hole and whatever explanation you would try to give would be ludicrous at best. Good luck guys.

[Pioneer Dawg]

No I changed it bc I saw when it was written dipshit. Just proving they haven't won shit this year, last year, nor the last 8. Thanks for playing

Baseball's more than just offense

[Homedawg]

They're the 4th highest scoring team in baseball.

I see you've changed your quote now because you probably looked this info up

4th highest in baseball means nothing. Hell only half counts the other league wo a dh can't be compare for runs scored. That's silly. Thought u could follow. But not shocked.

[Pioneer Dawg]

I'm going to bed. I don't think there is an explanation you will give on why your 4th-5th BEST hitter would get stuck in the 3 hole and whatever explanation you would try to give would be ludicrous at best. Good luck guys.

Bwahahahaha not only have I responded with the same exact post 3 times the Ref has also given you the information

[Homedawg]

Baseball's more than just offense

Thanks for telling me. Wow. Great info.

[Pioneer Dawg]

4th highest in baseball means nothing.

This is where you are taking it

[Homedawg]

This is where you are taking it

I like how you pull a partial quote. 4th highest in baseball means nothing when you are only counting half the teams. AND, I also referred to the last 8 years where they haven't done shit. Yea, there are lots of factors but I can pull more teams that have won shit and haven't followed your plan than have.....guess it was more to baseball bc it didn't follow your plan!...guess that's where the generally falls in??

[I seen it dawg]

Bwahahahaha not only have I responded with the same exact post 3 times the Ref has also given you the information

Ok so you put your BEST, your MASHER at 4 hole because at 3 hole they will be hitting with 2 outs and no one on in one inning of the game. But why only the 4th-5th BEST at 3 hole? Why not the 2nd or 3rd best? And how do you determine the "BEST" ranking for these hitters?

[I seen it dawg]

Baseball's more than just offense

How would that be possible in your stat world?

[engie]

How would that be possible in your stat world?

I was wondering who would be first to point out that hypocrisy...

At least I can finally agree with him on something.

[I seen it dawg]

I hate to bring it up but boy does it sure add an element to the Garner/Rea debacle that he refuses to see. Now that he has said baseball isn't just all offense. Scary to think he might be learning something.

[I seen it dawg]

Pioneer.....

So you are saying that the 4 hole guy should be your MASHER, your BEST hitter? Correct?

[Dawg61]

Putting the 4th or 5th best hitter in the 3 hole completely goes against the logic behind putting your top 2 OBP guys 1 n 2 in the lineup. So you'd be aggressive with your first two guys and assume they get on base the most throughout the season only to then set your lineup at the 3 spot like those two failed to get on base? There's your fail.

[mic]

My guess is Will James got cut from his high school baseball team..

[DudyDawg]

My guess is Will James got cut from his high school baseball team..

Junior high

[Pioneer Dawg]

Ok so you put your BEST, your MASHER at 4 hole because at 3 hole they will be hitting with 2 outs and no one on in one inning of the game. But why only the 4th-5th BEST at 3 hole? Why not the 2nd or 3rd best? And how do you determine the "BEST" ranking for these hitters?

Because you want your other two best hitters hitting 1st and 2nd.. I see you are ignoring The Ref in this debate

[Pioneer Dawg]

I was wondering who would be first to point out that hypocrisy...

At least I can finally agree with him on something.

Engine knows that I've never said baseball is all about offense
Engine knows that sabermetrics wants the best possible team in the field.
Engine knows this is not "hypocrisy"
Engine is building "cred"

[Pioneer Dawg]

Putting the 4th or 5th best hitter in the 3 hole completely goes against the logic behind putting your top 2 OBP guys 1 n 2 in the lineup. So you'd be aggressive with your first two guys and assume they get on base the most throughout the season only to then set your lineup at the 3 spot like those two failed to get on base? There's your fail.

4 hole hits with the most guys on base.. How many times are 1-2 BOTH going to get on? Lets say 1-2 are both .360 OBP guys... They will both be on base just 18% of the time.

You have a much higher chance of having 2 guys on with him hitting 4th AND limit wasting his AB's with nobody on and 2 outs..
Boyd's expected run table says nobody on and 2 out produces runs just 7% of the time..

Check out Ref's link.

[I seen it dawg]

Pioneer.....

So you are saying that the 4 hole guy should be your MASHER, your BEST hitter? Correct?

Pioneeeeeerrrrrrrr.......don't leave this one unattended

[I seen it dawg]

Because you want your other two best hitters hitting 1st and 2nd.. I see you are ignoring The Ref in this debate

Don't try to drag Ref into this because you need help. He is innocent

[I seen it dawg]

4 hole hits with the most guys on base.. How many times are 1-2 BOTH going to get on? Lets say 1-2 are both .360 OBP guys... They will both be on base just 18% of the time.

You have a much higher chance of having 2 guys on with him hitting 4th AND limit wasting his AB's with nobody on and 2 outs..
Boyd's expected run table says nobody on and 2 out produces runs just 7% of the time..

Check out Ref's link.

Your whole argument is based on only one inning of a 9+ inning game.

[I seen it dawg]

Because you want your other two best hitters hitting 1st and 2nd.. I see you are ignoring The Ref in this debate

So if you want your other 2 best hitters hitting 1&2 wouldn't you want your best guy hitting immediately behind them? Not putting your 4th-5th BEST in between them and your best hitter. According to your logic that guy isn't near as dangerous so he won't do a whole lot of damage. So know he has hit into 2 or made it easier to pitch around the 4 guy because he got out and now has made it harder on the 4 guy. Because he is only 4th-5th BEST. Once again...how do you determine your BEST? And don't avoid my masher question...

[Pioneer Dawg]

Pioneeeeeerrrrrrrr.......don't leave this one unattended

Yes 4 hole should be your most productive hitter.. High wOBA....Renfroe last season is a good example...

[Pioneer Dawg]

So if you want your other 2 best hitters hitting 1&2 wouldn't you want your best guy hitting immediately behind them?

Because they will both be on base only 15-18% of the time.. And 3 hole comes up more in nobody on 2 out situations...

[Pioneer Dawg]

Your whole argument is based on only one inning of a 9+ inning game.

Yes. The only inning you are in complete control.. More runs are scored in the 1st than any other BY FAR. You need to maximize here.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Don't try to drag Ref into this because you need help. He is innocent

So, since he agrees with me he is dismissed?

[I seen it dawg]

Because they will both be on base only 15-18% of the time.. And 3 hole comes up more in nobody on 2 out situations...

Wait...you're going to put your 2 best on base guys together up front and at the same time assume the 3hole guy is going to hit with nobody on and 2 outs frequently? This is where your stats are irrelevant.

[Dawg61]

I checked out the link. It's just regurgitation numbers and frequency of them happening. And then telling you how you should set your lineup based on them. Several things immediately that I see wrong with that. One is that once you start changing your lineup away from the type of lineup this data was collected on then the whole theory is out of whack ex. if team A uses their 2nd best hitter in the 3 hole normally and then puts him in the 5 hole well then the numbers would completely change for all the hitters and you would then have a new theory for best lineup that doesn't match the lineup you just switched to. The fox would forever be chasing the rabbit. Second thing I see wrong is that it is suggesting putting the better homerun hitter in the 3 hole over the 5 hole because they can hit more solo home runs with 2 outs but that is just stupid because you want your homeruns to happen when there's people on base which the 5 hole gets more runners on then the 3 hole does. Last and most importantly is that these charts don't take anything else into account, speed, ability to hit productive outs, how often do they strike out, are they "clutch" and a lineup isn't filled with hitters that fit this mold perfectly. You can't just mix and match your hitters to perfectly fit this chart because you don't always have 3 great OBP guys and 3 great SLG% guys and 3 great HR guys etc… You might only have 1 HR guy or you might only have 1 high OBP guy. You have to mix and match your lineup based on it's strength and weaknesses not what some chart says that would be totally out of whack if it had to use your lineup only.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Wait...you're going to put your 2 best on base guys together up front and at the same time assume the 3hole guy is going to hit with nobody on and 2 outs frequently? This is where your stats are irrelevant.

Not frequently... Just more often than any other spot... You didn't do well in math and statistics did you..

[Dawg61]

Wait...you're going to put your 2 best on base guys together up front and at the same time assume the 3hole guy is going to hit with nobody on and 2 outs frequently? This is where your stats are irrelevant.

This is exactly the point I am trying to make. You set your lineup to have 1 and 2 happen and then set 3 because you think 1 and 2 won't happen. That makes zero sense. You assumed 1 and 2 would get on so now go for the fu@king kill and have the 3, 4 and 5 hitters mash them in.

[I seen it dawg]

I checked out the link. It's just regurgitation numbers and frequency of them happening. And then telling you how you should set your lineup based on them. Several things immediately that I see wrong with that. One is that once you start changing your lineup away from the type of lineup this data was collected on then the whole theory is out of whack ex. if team A uses their 2nd best hitter in the 3 hole normally and then puts him in the 5 hole well then the numbers would completely change for all the hitters and you would then have a new theory for best lineup that doesn't match the lineup you just switched to. The fox would forever be chasing the rabbit. Second thing I see wrong is that it is suggesting putting the better homerun hitter in the 3 hole over the 5 hole because they can hit more solo home runs with 2 outs but that is just stupid because you want your homeruns to happen when there's people on base which the 5 hole gets more runners on then the 3 hole does. Last and most importantly is that these charts don't take anything else into account, speed, ability to hit productive outs, how often do they strike out, are they "clutch" and a lineup isn't filled with hitters that fit this mold perfectly. You can't just mix and match your hitters to perfectly fit this chart because you don't always have 3 great OBP guys and 3 great SLG% guys and 3 great HR guys etc… You might only have 1 HR guy or you might only have 1 high OBP guy. You have to mix and match your lineup based on it's strength and weaknesses not what some chart says that would be totally out of whack if it had to use your lineup only.

Thank you. I didn't have the energy to post all of that.

[Pioneer Dawg]

I checked out the link. It's just regurgitation numbers and frequency of them happening. And then telling you how you should set your lineup based on them. Several things immediately that I see wrong with that. One is that once you start changing your lineup away from the type of lineup this data was collected on then the whole theory is out of whack ex. if team A uses their 2nd best hitter in the 3 hole normally and then puts him in the 5 hole well then the numbers would completely change for all the hitters and you would then have a new theory for best lineup that doesn't match the lineup you just switched to. The fox would forever be chasing the rabbit. Second thing I see wrong is that it is suggesting putting the better homerun hitter in the 3 hole over the 5 hole because they can hit more solo home runs with 2 outs but that is just stupid because you want your homeruns to happen when there's people on base which the 5 hole gets more runners on then the 3 hole does. Last and most importantly is that these charts don't take anything else into account, speed, ability to hit productive outs, how often do they strike out, are they "clutch" and a lineup isn't filled with hitters that fit this mold perfectly. You can't just mix and match your hitters to perfectly fit this chart because you don't always have 3 great OBP guys and 3 great SLG% guys and 3 great HR guys etc… You might only have 1 HR guy or you might only have 1 high OBP guy. You have to mix and match your lineup based on it's strength and weaknesses not what some chart says that would be totally out of whack if it had to use your lineup only.

1. Doesn't change the nobody on and 2 out propensity of the 3 hole.

2. Exactly. If you give me 5 players I can give you the best optimized lineup. Thats why I said "generally" which made I Seen It upset because he wants to play Engine.

3. The production from having a Josh Donaldson 3rd just works out to be better than a Yoenis Cespedes. These slots are close and will affect things the least. You have to look at the individuals for deciding here.

[Pioneer Dawg]

This is exactly the point I am trying to make. You set your lineup to have 1 and 2 happen and then set 3 because you think 1 and 2 won't happen. That makes zero sense. You assumed 1 and 2 would get on so now go for the fu@king kill and have the 3, 4 and 5 hitters mash them in.

No, you don't "think", you KNOW the percentages for where they both won't be on base. How many times are BOTH going to be on? 15-18%.

You want to maximize runners on base and that is 4 hole.

Its about maximizing the lineup. We are talking ~15-20 runs here but that can be the difference between in the playoffs and not.

[I seen it dawg]

Not frequently... Just more often than any other spot... You didn't do well in math and statistics did you..

By straight statistical analysis. Which does not strictly transfer to the game field which 61 just posted. You only view all of this through a computer, which has never tried to hit a ****ing fastball.

I did just fine in math and stats. You never actually played baseball on grass and dirt did you?

[Pioneer Dawg]

By straight statistical analysis. Which does not strictly transfer to the game field which 61 just posted. You only view all of this through a computer, which has never tried to hit a ****ing fastball.

I did just fine in math and stats. You never actually played baseball on grass and dirt did you?

3 hole hitting with nobody on and 2 out more directly translates to the field.. Because he is going to be the 3rd hitter in an inning at least once every single game.. Do you not understand this?

I have been milking this but gosh enough is enough, yes I played baseball.. I'm guessing all of us baseball guys on here that love it so much played.. I assume Brad Stevens played hoops.. I assume Dudy played soccer... I assume Coach played football... I assume you were a cheerleader

[I seen it dawg]

1. Doesn't change the nobody on and 2 out propensity of the 3 hole.

2. Exactly. If you give me 5 players I can give you the best optimized lineup. Thats why I said "generally" which made I Seen It upset because he wants to play Engine. for the same reason as you just use whatever stat you can find to make the argument even though it's relevance is nuked when you would actually have to put it into use in a real game

3. The production from having a Josh Donaldson 3rd just works out to be better than a Yoenis Cespedes. These slots are close and will affect things the least. You have to look at the individuals for deciding here.

Oh so now you want to look at the individuals? But I thought you just plug them in to where the stat machine says they go? You can't be so adamant about the stats and then change gears. You're actually agreeing with the game of baseball with your 3rd statement.

[Dawg61]

Homeruns are too infrequent and too valuable to place your better homerun hitter in the position most likely to hit with 2 outs and nobody one. This chart wants you to maximize the solo homerun. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Homeruns don't happen often so when they do happen you want them with runners on base not with 2 outs nobody on. Stop comparing lineups to the Oakland A's. Mississippi State can't have a lineup like the Oakland A's because we can't just go out and buy baseball players to fit the lineup like a MLB team can.

[I seen it dawg]

3 hole hitting with nobody on and 2 out more directly translates to the field.. Because he is going to be the 3rd hitter in an inning at least once every single game.. Do you not understand this?yes. But you can't make your lineup based one 1 AB in an entire game. That's what doesn't translate. For the matter why don't we just put the pitcher first and get it out of the way

I have been milking this but gosh enough is enough, yes I played baseball.. I'm guessing all of us baseball guys on here that love it so much played.. I assume Brad Stevens played hoops.. I assume Dudy played soccer... I assume Coach played football... I assume you were a cheerleader

Well you damn sure didn't learn anything from playing.

[DudyDawg]

No, you don't "think", you KNOW the percentages for where they both won't be on base. How many times are BOTH going to be on? 15-18%.

You want to maximize runners on base and that is 4 hole.

Its about maximizing the lineup. We are talking ~15-20 runs here but that can be the difference between in the playoffs and not.

You keep saying the likelihood of BOTH being on, what about just one of them? If the leadoff guy is on, and the two hole gets out, according to you, the 5th best hitter is now up with a runner on first and one down. The propensity of this 5th best hitter to hit into a double play is higher than your best hitter (who nearly every manager agrees should bat third). This would lead to your best hitter consistently hitting with no one on, minimizing his ability to contribute

[Pioneer Dawg]

Oh so now you want to look at the individuals? But I thought you just plug them in to where the stat machine says they go? You can't be so adamant about the stats and then change gears. You're actually agreeing with the game of baseball with your 3rd statement.

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/how-thomas-the-tank-engine-works-1.jpg

[I seen it dawg]

http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/how-thomas-the-tank-engine-works-1.jpg

Well if I had a picture of a serf I would post it in all my responses to you. I don't even know what you are trying to get at...except the fact you failed miserable replying to my questions

[Pioneer Dawg]

You keep saying the likelihood of BOTH being one, what about just one of them? If the leadoff guy is on, and the two hole gets out, according to you, the 5th best hitter is now up with a runner on first and one down. The propensity of this 5th best hitter to hit into a double play is higher than your best hitter (who nearly every manager agrees shouldn't bat third). This would lead to your best hitter consistently hitting with no one on, minimizing his ability to contribute

You keep bringing up these scenarios.. Yes that could happen. Its about statistically maximizing... Everything is going to happen... Bunting one man over leads to runs somethimes... Not bunting leads to MORE runs... You will score sometimes bunting, you won't score sometimes not bunting.... You have to look at what gives you the best chance for success.

You are ignoring the numbers that show the 3 hole hits with nobody on and 2 outs more than anyone else. I'd rather have Renfroe leading an inning off than hitting with nobody on and 2 outs.. I'd rather have Mark Reynolds or Chris Carter or Juan Francisco hitting with nobody on and 2 outs than leading off an inning

[I seen it dawg]

You keep bringing up these scenarios.. Yes that could happen. Its about statistically maximizing... Everything is going to happen... Bunting one man over leads to runs somethimes... Not bunting leads to MORE runs... You will score sometimes bunting, you won't score sometimes not bunting.... You have to look at what gives you the best chance for success.

You are ignoring the numbers that show the 3 hole hits with nobody on and 2 outs more than anyone else. I'd rather have Renfroe leading an inning off than hitting with nobody on and 2 outs.. I'd rather have Mark Reynolds or Chris Carter or Juan Francisco hitting with nobody on and 2 outs than leading off an inning

So it would be good to have strikeout machines hitting third? That's stupid

[Pioneer Dawg]

So it would be good to have strikeout machines hitting third? That's stupid

Id rather have a K with nobody on and 2 outs rather than leading off an inning

[DudyDawg]

Id rather have a K with nobody on and 2 outs rather than leading off an inning

I would rather have K's at Shelton State

[Pioneer Dawg]

I would rather have K's at Shelton State

I don't think Rea should transfer

[engie]

Engine knows that I've never said baseball is all about offense
Engine knows that sabermetrics wants the best possible team in the field.
Engine knows this is not "hypocrisy"
Engine is building "cred"

Contrary to your inflated sense of self, arguing with you does nothing to build "cred" and actually hurts it -- instead of letting the whole board just tune you out. It is generally not even worthwhile Phillip.

Hence why I simply sit back and allow you to talk yourself in circles about something as trivial as lineup setup, which contains no "right" answer -- and nothing that can actually be proven statistically. Of course, the limited scope of your knowledge of the totality of the game still allows you to think you can solve something that's purely trivial.

[engie]

I don't think Rea should transfer

Why don't you think that? You've made it clear that the Phillip Sanderson system has 4 other 1Bs ahead of him(well, 3 now). That seems like a ripe scenario for a transfer -- if you actually believed half the crap you say...