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View Full Version : A Song of Ice and Fire - Theories Thread - **SPOILERS** for Game of Thrones Show



BulldogBear
06-26-2014, 01:53 AM
As promised, this is the thread for discussing book theories. It's late right now but I'll list below some things I have figured out as well as theories and predictions that I subscribe to as well as couple that I'm not convinced of yet but find interesting and am being open minded about. Y'all let me know a couple you want me to tackle first and I'll give the long versions one at a time.

Let me first say that I believe the ASOIAF endgame is going to involve only two real "sides." Those wanting to destroy all mankind and those who seek to defend mankind. Some on the "enemy" side may be unwitting pawns. This colors my big picture understanding of the story as I believe the throne of Westeros is, in the end, small potatoes. If you want to find "the bad guys" who will be against mankind in the endgame you need to look at the those that exhibit some of the following traits:

Human Sacrifice
Blood Magic
Raising of the Dead

now on to theories....

1) not really a theory but a prediction: GRRM is going to tease us by having Victarion almost get revenge on Euron Greyjoy but FAIL. But then Theon Greyjoy, who is on a redemption character arc is going to kill Euron Crow's Eye LIKE A BOSS. He will finally gain the respect of the Ironborn, be elected by a King's Moot with Asha's support and lead the Ironborn to switch sides and be a major factor in the defeat of the enemy.

2) The main hero of the story is Jaime Lannister and the main villain is Bran Stark. GRRM threw us all off by having Jaime throw Bran out of the tower in Book 1. Jaime's the bad guy right!!?? Wrong. In the end we're going to wish Bran had died.

3a) Children of the Forest are evil. Bran is being deceived into helping them attempt to destroy mankind. The Children and the Others are allies. Bran will use greenseeing powers (COF have none) to lead the armies of the Others and their allies against mankind.

3b) The Great Other and R'hollor are one in the same. Melisandre is a pawn. Stannis will become the New Night King and will ally with the Others, the Children of the Forest, and the Faceless men to attempt to kill all mankind.

3c) The Faceless Men agenda is to kill every last man, woman, and child in the world and then kill themselves as they believe this is a good thing. They believe all men are suffering and it is a mercy to put them out of their misery. "All Men Must Die" is not a shrugging quip such as saying we all die one day. "All Men Must Die" is a goal. Varys is a faceless man and the young girl in the room when Kevan Lannister is murdered is Arya Stark.

4) Rhaegar Targaryean is alive. He is incognito as Mance Rayder. He saw himself as the Prince who was Promised and feels that he has to save mankind. The Prince who was Promised and Azor Ahai are not the same person. Rhaegar believed Aegon was AA but he is wrong. His attempt to get the Wildlings South is his attempt to save everyone. The man killed at the Trident was Ser Arthur Dayne. Ned learns the truth at the Tower of Joy and this is why Dayne's death is painful to him.

5) Ned's father conspired with Jon Arryn, Rhaegar and others (even Tywin who is now conveniently dead) to oust the Mad King and implement Rhaegar's plan for the coming war for the survival of mankind. Hot head older brother Brandon Stark kind of 17ed it all up.

6) The valonqar is the Hound. He will bring about Cersei's downfall because he, the little brother, will be the Faith's champion against Cersei's Champion Ser Robert Strong aka UnGregor Clegane. The Hound will kill the Mountain in single combat and doom Cersei. The Hound is a changed man and is still alive by the way, for those of you who didn't figure that out.

7) Jon Connington's "Aegon" is a fraud and is probably the son of Ashara Dayne who is Septa Lemor. It is possible he is still Rhaegar's son by Ashara though. Or Brandon Stark. But I think he is a Blackfyre. This forshadowed in the story about the wrought iron black dragon in the history of the Crossroads Inn.

8) Syrio Forel was captured by Mandon Moore and thrown into the black cells. He is Jaqen H'ghar.

9) Jojen Reed and Howland Reed are the same person. He is now dead which we'll learn in TWOW but GRRM is just 17ing with us with Howland's death. We'll still eventually learn more of the TOJ because of #4 above. Rhaegar was there and was one of the the "they" who found Ned still clutching Lyanna's body.

10) The words "Hodor" and "Other" are the same word. The name Hodor is the name of the great other (who is also R'hllor). Our beloved "Hodor" was traumatized by something that had to do with this and that is why "Hodor" or "Other" is the only word he says.

11) "Winter is Coming" is not a warning. It is a threat.

12) Jon was not stabbed at the end of ADWD. It was Ghost that was killed.

13) Jaime and Cersei are Targaryeans and are the children of the Mad King and Tywin's wife. This prima nocta is the true reason for the falling out between Tywin and the Mad King, although Tywin does not believe the children are the Mad King's. They look like Lannisters after all, but remember Tywin's wife was his cousin and also was a Lannister. The Targaryean seed is weak. Joffrey was a Targaryean after all. Remember that Targaryeans are either great or they are nutjobs. This explains sibling love tendency between Jaime and Cersei as well as Cersei and Joffrey being freaks.

14) Most of the Prophecies about Azor Ahai and the building of the Wall are bullsh*t. The whole history and lore of the wall and the war of the dawn are stories fabricated by: The Children of the Forest, who are purposely banished to the other side of the Wall. None of the men who later became "the Wildlings" were meant to be over there. Azor Ahai is not the same person as the Prince who was Promised. The Prince that was Promised is Theon Greyjoy or Jaime Lannister (I fluctuate between the two on this). Azor Ahai is actually a villain and is the "opposite" number to the Prince who was Promised. I theorize that he's Ramsey Snow with a slight chance of being Jon as a pawn of the enemy. As I've said before Mel, Stannis, and Bran are all of them deceived and are pawns of the enemy. Danaerys is a smokescreen for both Azor Ahai and the PTWP.

15) The Brotherhood has infiltrated Winterfell and is in cahoots with Wyman Manderly and other northern Lords to kick some Bolton and Frey a$$. These "cahoots" are called the Great Northern Conspiracy and is not my own theory but one others have convinced me of.

16) Benjen Stark has so many possibilites as to be mind boggling. I believe he was captured and taken to Mance, who revealed to Benjen that his true identity is Rhaegar Targaryean. Whatever Benjen is up to, it is something that Rhaegar has tasked him to do. Perhaps that is why I think he could also be the hooded man that recognizes Theon at Winterfell. After all, we already know that Mance/Rhaegar and the spearwives are at Winterfell as well. I personally wonder if he's not on Skaggos with Rickon and Osha. Some think he is Daario Naharis. I'm interested but not buying that one yet. Another that is tempting is that Quaithe = Lyanna Stark and whatever role she is playing has something to do with the plan Rickard Stark and Rhaegar hatched. Not quite there on that one yet but it is interesting. What if the reason he is posing as Daario is to try to root out more about Quaithe/Lyanna?

17) The horn that "brings down the wall" and the horn that "controls dragons" does the same thing. GRRM loves doing this cross cultural stuff. You've got to realize that some cultures and characters don't interact much and can be describing the same object, type of object, or person in their own way. By controlling dragons you bring down the wall with dragonfire. This is going to happen.

18) A faceless man killed Balon Greyjoy. Euron Crow's Eye paid for this murder with a dragon egg he found in the East. This is why Jaqen H'ghar (Syrio) has infiltrated the Citadel: To try to find how to make it hatch.

19) Viserys and Danaerys did not grow up in Essos. It was in Dorne (although they were told differently) and Doran knew of it and is part of a plot to restore the Targaryeans with Martell as the "second" family if you will.


Just to ruffle your feathers.... Danaerys, Tyrion, Bran, Stannis, UnCat, Arya and quite possibly even Jon... are all characters that we've been hoodwinked into rooting for who are actually going to find themselves on the enemy side in the endgame. They are going to become antagonists and/or villains. Bran, Stannis, Tyrion, UnCat and Arya are all headed somewhere dark. Danaerys will be a pawn more so than "evil" and Jon as well if he turns out wrong. I personally believe that Danaerys will be eaten by one of her dragons and then the sh*t is really gonna hit the fan.

Similarly, the Hound, Jaime, Theon, and Alliser Thorne are going to be our heroes in the end.

Littlefinger? Even I won't touch him. Littlefinger wants Sansa and the crown. If there is indeed a 3rd side in the endgame it is liable to be Littlefinger's "side."

tenureplan
06-26-2014, 10:29 AM
I think you are WAY off on most of this, but know you are off on 3c. There's no way the girl was Arya. A sample chapter has been released that still puts Arya in Braavos where she marks another one off her list. That girl was just one of Varys' little birds.


ETA - It was Jon that was stabbed and he will warg into Ghost before he dies. That's why we had the opening chapter with a guy doing that.

SheltonChoked
06-26-2014, 11:22 AM
I agree with tenure. I think you are way off on most of this.

I'm with you on items 1, 7, 10, 11, 15, 16, 17, and 18.

I'm not sure on 9, 12 or 13.

I think you are off on 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, and 14.

There is room for interpretation due to the unreliable narrators of the POV GRRM writes in. But History is written by the victors, the current history is the Children of the forest and the First Men defeated the Others and built the wall.


3b) The Great Other and R'hollor are one in the same. I agree with this part. Melisandre Has no Idea what she is toying with. I'm not sure Stannis is the Night King, But Davos will sacrifice to save his king.


4) Rhaegar Targaryean is alive. He is incognito as Mance Rayder. Maybe on the first part, but No way on the second. GRRM has a say on the casting and Mance look nothing like Rhaegar. And his great Uncle would recognize him.


6) The valonqar is the Hound. The Hound is dead. Crow food Dead. Cercei gets killed by Jamie, to save the city/kingdom from a crazy power mad regent about to do something stupid, again.


8) Syrio Forel was captured by Mandon Moore and thrown into the black cells. He is Jaqen H'ghar. I want to believe this, but I don't think it is true. The big mystery around Jaqen is "Who was he paid to kill?"

tenureplan
06-26-2014, 02:10 PM
[QUOTE=SheltonChoked;202962]

The Hound is dead. Crow food Dead. Cercei gets killed by Jamie, to save the city/kingdom from a crazy power mad regent about to do something stupid, again.

While I agree that Jaime is the one that will kill Cercei, the Hound is very much alive and is digging graves on the Quiet Isle.

BulldogBear
06-26-2014, 07:52 PM
Edited above to add (19). I forgot one.

Cabo32
06-27-2014, 10:07 AM
I'm not agreeing with you on Bran being a villain. I do think that Jamie will one of the heroes because he will be the one that chokes cersi to death.

The more I read about the whole rhaegar/mance deal the more I think mance is actually Arthur dayne. Ned sent him to the wall after the battle of the TOJ was cut short due to the birth of Jon. Daynes life revolves around protecting the "king". Well once jon is born, Ned convinces dayne to take the black and he'll be able to protect him later down the road while Jon grows up in winterfell.

That also leads me to think that the faith will chose mance/dayne as they're champion against Robert strong. At the battle by combat mance/dayne will unveil DAWN and put a serious beat down on the mountain.

The emp is a targ, not the twins

BulldogBear
06-27-2014, 11:31 AM
Just a quick note to muse with Shelton about Jaqen H'ghar.

I've wondered that myself though not at length because I've wondered if Syrio Forel was in fact Varys. GRRM likes to drop clues and hints but also red herring. So, Jaqen may have been there as part of some mission in the ambition of the Faceless Men. He might not have been there to kill anyone in particular but meet with Varys or perhaps deliver Euron's dragon egg. When Jaqen goes to the Citadel it doesn't seem to be to kill anyone in particular but to locate tightly kept information. So, accordingly perhaps he was not originally in KL for murder either. He may not have gone there as Jaqen but as Forel and found a recruit in the process. He also might have already been there a long time and changed to Forel as a way to get close to someone mentioned below. But after the failed coup he had to get out some way in the aftermath and couldn't do so as Syrio. So he changed his face and then leaving as a conscript for Night's Watch is the perfect cover.

So, I haven't mused about murder much but if he was there to murder somebody, it may have been Ned. Varys seems to be in charge of Faceless Men ambitions in KL and we know the last thing he wants is competent leadership. With Robert (the perfect apathetic king the FM want in charge) murdered by meddling Lannister ambitions they couldn't have an honorable man like Ned or Stannis running things. Well, then came the coup and Joffrey did the deed for him at Baelor. Just some off the cuff thoughts. Have you got any ideas on who the mark may have been if Jaqen was there for an assassination? Or was he successful? Is there some seemingly obscure death in the right time frame that we're not thinking of?

Still haven't decided which one to present to y'all in detail first. Some are very very long. I'm going to hold off a while on Azor Ahai because that's more presenting options as I have still not decided if I believe it's Ramsey or Jon (the 2 "evil" options) or if it's Theon or Jaime (the 2 "good" options). I'm leaning toward the Hound as the valonqar or Rhaegar lives. On the latter, I'm certain it's Mance though some think he's the tattered prince. There are just too many clues, parralells and forshadowing that lead to the conclusion that Rhaegar is Mance if he's still alive. Bear with me and be open minded. You'll be on the Rayder/Rhaegar train when I'm done.

Shelton again: regarding Arya at Kevan's murder. I've not read the Arya chapter so I may concede that she's not Arya after I read it. I just thought it was interesting. I HAVE heard some opinion's that think the time scale is deceptive at the end of ADWD and beginning of TWOW so she could still be both. I'll need to read up more on that. With that said, if the skinny girl is not Arya, who is she? GRRM doesn't waste many words. Why bother drawing attention to her if she's just a schmo that needs to eat more? Here's a freaky thought. Remember that I believe the Children of the Forest are plotting the downfall of mankind and have a weird alliance with Faceless Men at some point. They are often referred to just in ASOIAF as "The Children." In fact, Varys may have done just that in the epilogue to ADWD when he tells Kevan that he bore him no ill will and that he had to die "...for the realm. For the children." Just who's "realm" is Varys doing all this for? Some have even suggested that the freaky little "children" who stab Kevan are some form of COF. Not sure I believe that part and I don't wanna get into that too much as there is so much more to the COF as the real enemy theory. Why would Varys be plotting the downfall of man yet groom "Aegon" for kingship? That's covered elsewhere as well.

War Machine Dawg
06-27-2014, 03:03 PM
I'm with you on Bran being evil. However, I don't think he'll be evil knowingly. He'll be a pawn using his green dreams and ability to warg conned into helping the COF without knowing about their alliance to the Others.

Entirely disagree about Jon being evil. I think he is the real hero of the story. I'm basing that off his parents being Rhaegar and Lyanna. Remember, there is a flashback/vision of Rhaegar talking about his son having the Song of Ice and Fire and being the PTWP. IF Jon's parents are truly R & L, then I think that makes him TPTWP. He gets the Ice part from his mother, Lyanna - a Northern Stark - Direwolf/North/Ice/WIC. And he gets Fire from Rhaegar - a Targaryen - Valyrian/Dragons/Fire. Plus, as a Stark, the blood of the First Men flows in his veins according to Ned. And we know that the First Men defeated the Others.

I do agree that Jaime is a hero and not a villain. As you point out, he's definitely on a redemption arc. He's become one of my favorite characters, actually. I don't know if he'll be the one to off Cersei or not, but he clearly won't defend her the way he would have pre-capture.

Don't think Theon is anything more than a pawn to convey other parts of the story. There's no way he becomes some heroic badass. He's physically incapable after what Ramsey has put him through. GRRM made it clear he's been flayed, can barely walk, and doesn't have many of his teeth left or unbroken. He might get pissed and stab someone to death, but he's not going to be able to seriously harm anyone outside of a "heat of the moment" killing.

Can't wait to hear your theories on Benjen and the Hound. I'd love for the Hound to be alive, but I don't think he is. I think he was intended solely to give Arya a different perspective on killing and further her journey towards becoming a badass assassin.

I can buy Cabo's theory that Mance might be Arthur Dayne, but I just don't see any way he's Rhaegar. Too many people saw Rhaegar die at Ruby Falls for me to believe it was anyone else.

I also think Dany is a major player. She'll find a way to control the dragons soon, whether it be with a dragon horn or learning the old Targaryen secrets. Hell, Drogon is already protecting her at the end of ADWD. She'll unite Essos, then move on Westeros to recapture the Iron Throne. Eventually she & Jon will meet, fall in love, and marry. This will preserve the purity of the Targaryen bloodline, assuming R + L = J. The marriage will also unite the two ultimate heroes, giving TPTWP control of both the Dragons and all the armies of Men.

Littlefinger interests the hell out of me. He definitely wants the Iron Throne, but I don't think he makes it out of the series alive. He'll train Sansa to be the perfect political player, then she'll have no need of him and off him somehow. Sansa will be a badass before this is over, I predict.

I have no clue what Varys' plan is. But I agree that his "Aegon" is an impostor of some form.

Anyway, that's just my musings. Definitely look forward to hearing your theories.

Cabo32
06-27-2014, 09:30 PM
I can't believe you sticking to your guns regarding the Howland/jojen theory. Jojen is dead...Howland is alive. GRRM already said we would hear from Howland soon enough.

The only stark I see becoming evil is stoneheart...she just doesn't care and wants everyone dead.

Your theories are pretty amazing, though...I just don't agree with 3/4 of them..

Not gonna lie, about halfway through reading your theories I could have swore you we're gonna the "Ned stark is alive because varys had a faceless man swap places with him before the execution" theory

War Machine Dawg
06-27-2014, 09:48 PM
I can't believe you sticking to your guns regarding the Howland/jojen theory. Jojen is dead...Howland is alive. GRRM already said we would hear from Howland soon enough.

The only stark I see becoming evil is stoneheart...she just doesn't care and wants everyone dead.

Your theories are pretty amazing, though...I just don't agree with 3/4 of them..

Not gonna lie, about halfway through reading your theories I could have swore you we're gonna the "Ned stark is alive because varys had a faceless man swap places with him before the execution" theory

There actually IS a theory that Ned is alive (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Eddard_Stark/Theories) and one of the key players working for Dany. I don't buy it, as we clearly see Ned get his head chopped off on tv, and GRRM has content approval rights. They've obviously changed a few things, but they won't be making any changes that will affect the outcome. It's also why I've hopped off the theory that Robb's wife is alive, pregnant, and hiding out with the Blackfish after he escapes Riverrun. Offing the made-for-GoT preggers wife pretty much tells me even IF book version wife is alive & pregnant, it has virtually no major impact on the story.

Cabo32
06-28-2014, 09:56 AM
Yeah. As much as you don't want to see a character like Ned get killed off, it had to happen. It's what made this story interesting.

You talk ab littlefinger...I think he dies in a very drastic way. I think varys knows that littlefingers plot was to get Ned to KL and betray him. A beheadding of LF would be great

BulldogBear
06-28-2014, 10:09 AM
Ned is the one character, if you had to pick only one, that must remain dead for any of the story to make sense. Bringing him back would be juvenile. In some direct or indirect way his death is the flashpoint for every fire.

Personally I want to see Littlefinger transition form rotten stinky human piece of sheit to rotten stinky piece of dragon sheit.

BulldogBear
06-28-2014, 10:15 AM
Now that you've got me back to thinking of Baelish, I thinking that he's got to encounter UnCat at some point. If not, GRRM needs to be ashamed of himself for not pulling that off somehow. So, here's a thought... what does he think of her now that she's all green and stuff? I wonder if UnCat will be the one to off him, especially if she picks up on how he's using Sansa.

bgdog
06-28-2014, 11:17 AM
It's also why I've hopped off the theory that Robb's wife is alive, pregnant, and hiding out with the Blackfish after he escapes Riverrun. Offing the made-for-GoT preggers wife pretty much tells me even IF book version wife is alive & pregnant, it has virtually no major impact on the story.

I always took the straight stomach stabbing in the tv show as GRRM adding that as part of cannon and putting that particular theory to bed

BoomBoom
06-30-2014, 09:15 PM
*cracks knuckles* you're in my wheelhouse now, son.......

Tyrion will achieve his endgoal, inherit the Rock, and only then learn that the gold mines have run dry and the gold vaults are empty. He'll learn he's dead broke, laugh and pour some wine. the TV show foreshadowed this with Tywin confirming the Rock is broke and the mines are dry.

interesting that the fingers Theon has left are the ones needed for archery, the martial skill he is known for.

"what is dead may never die, but rises again stronger" or something. Theon will be executed (in front of a Weirwood tree) and rise reborn, made whole.

R+L=J. In the first book, Joffrey scoffs at Jon and states that a bastard cannot sit at table with a Prince. He didn't. ;)

maybe Benjen is the Night's King? makes more sense than Stannis.

that the TV show did not give Arya the BOSS scene with Polliver (or whoever) that she has in the WoW preview just proves (as if it was needed by this point) that the TV show does not have a grand plan, they are just groping from season to season without thinking ahead. they skipped Lady Stoneheart for gawdssakkes! don't care what they have to say about ANY theory.

Rheagar is dead. no way no one thought to look at who was in the armor. too many people knew him too. though, for argument's sake, who at the Wall would recognize him or Dayne? Benjen for one. probably Thorne. Melissandre, though i guess she could be in on it. Stannis or his wife, most likely. any number of her noble knights.

Howland Reed is in his castle, still banging his smoking hot wife Ashara. The rest of Robb's army is there too, except the ones sent to notify Jon that he is Rob's heir. He spurned Stannis making him KotN, he will not spurn his brother (cousin). He will be saved magically by Mel (hopefully not as unJon). Can't decide if he will awaken in time to see the Wall fall, or if he will be declared dead and his Watch ended, freeing him to accept his heirship to Rob.

12 is interesting. i'm going to have to pull out the book and read it with that in mind. i think the bit about Longclaw sticking though contradicts the theory.

A dragon may have many riders, but each dragonrider may only ride one dragon. I wonder what this means for Starks that have 'ridden' their direwolves? does this mean SANSA will be a dragonrider?

The Horn of Joramun FAR predates the Valyrians. I think it allows the Others to control their wights.

19 is interesting. perhaps Dany finds the house with the red door in Dorne, and settles there at the end (as one of the few places not destroyed by the Others).

Lemore is not Ashara, Tyrion would have described her differently. The White Fawn maybe, she had been a septa i believe?

Nymeria's army will munch on Freys. I'd love to see Walder live to see all his offspring die, but Black Walder will inherit, that's been set up too much. perhaps Black Walder will get tired of waiting, and stage a coup? That would be fitting, for Walder to be killed by one of his (numerous) offspring.

Moqourro (sp?) is playing Victarion. There is no way he'd be for bending the dragons to Victarion's will. In fact, since in the PatQ the Targs didn't even use horns, i bet all the horn does is call the dragons for a meal.

SheltonChoked
07-01-2014, 09:48 AM
Just got around to being able to reply to this.

I can see how you got to Vary's being in league with the COF and the Faceless Men, but I'm having trouble with it. I could see one, but not both. And the more I think about it the more I like the faceless men idea.

I also agree that Arya will have a much larger role as an assassin in the books to come.

Jaqen's mark. It doesn't fit the show, but in the books it could have been Tywin. Or maybe he was sent by the Iron Bank to enforce a future threat. Or he was brought in by Ned to train Arya.

Cabo32
07-07-2014, 11:05 AM
Here's one that I came across the other day

Meera reed and job snow are twins. Meera is the 3rd head of the dragon

Meera and jon resemble one another, they were born in the same year

Meera and Lyana share the same personality characteristics

Howland owes Lyana for saving his butt for the knight at the laughing tree

It makes more sense that she would die giving birth to twins. Ned took jon and Howland took meera.

Ned, Howland and..Arthur dayne all witnessed this happen

Ned took jon to winterfell...Howland took meera to greywater and Arthur dayne decided to take the black because he felt dishonored by the fact that he failed to protect his best friend, rhaegar..

After hearing about the actor that plays theon say that jon snow family is similar to that of Star Wars, it made me think that jon(Luke) and meeta(leia) are long lost twins and mance rayder is not rhaegar(darth vader) but Arthur dayne(Obi-wann).

Bulldog bear...you're theory on rhaegar actually being mance just got me thinking that it could be dayne...one thing that got me thinking about it was the fight between jon and mance(disguised as rattle shirt)...mance pretty much manhandles him...jon states that mance swung his sword(a great sword) faster than jon could swing his..

Not too many of the characters could swing a big sword like that other than the sword of morning..

Just another crackpot theory

War Machine Dawg
07-12-2014, 10:34 PM
Bear, where you at? Football season is rapidly approaching and you haven't expanded on any of your theories yet. We're waiting.

http://i.imgur.com/4CYRi5f.gif

BulldogBear
07-13-2014, 07:26 PM
Bear, where you at? Football season is rapidly approaching and you haven't expanded on any of your theories yet. We're waiting.

http://i.imgur.com/4CYRi5f.gif

Been battling fleas in our yard and house. Preachermatt would tell me that's why you don't have inside pets! Also 2 weeks of camp and an anniversary. Busy times. I'll hit on some of it before kickoff!

War Machine Dawg
07-15-2014, 09:55 PM
Been battling fleas in our yard and house. Preachermatt would tell me that's why you don't have inside pets! Also 2 weeks of camp and an anniversary. Busy times. I'll hit on some of it before kickoff!

Ugh, no fun. And gotta agree with Preacher. Pets are for outside. No big rush, just felt like busting your balls a little.

War Machine Dawg
08-09-2014, 11:16 PM
Bump for Bear. 3 weeks. We're still waiting.

bgdog
08-12-2014, 02:02 PM
Uh oh, someone reads elitedawgs

http://uproxx.com/tv/2014/08/george-r-r-martin-confirms-that-fans-have-correctly-predicted-the-ending-of-a-song-of-ice-and-fire/

BulldogBear
08-13-2014, 10:33 PM
I haven't forgotten WMD. Just finally declared flea final victory last week, kids just started school and my mind is squarely on COLLEGE FOOTBALL!!! But I will expound on a few before kickoff as promised. Thanks for the bump.

bgdog, thanks for the link. I wonder how he knew I figured it out*****

BulldogBear
08-29-2014, 09:12 PM
WMD,

BulldogBear = Mud

I just back from Atlanta and was gonna write some stuff up tonight but I'm just ready to unpack and hit the hay. Excited about tomorrow and going to leave early. I will try to get on it during the week sometime though.

War Machine Dawg
08-29-2014, 10:53 PM
No problem. It's football!!!!!! Doubt we'll be spending much time here until mid-December/early January, ha!

BulldogBear
03-23-2015, 12:15 PM
I can't believe you sticking to your guns regarding the Howland/jojen theory.

Can't anymore. There's a rumor that he's taking a head basketball coach job at some place far from Westeros.***

Cabo32
03-23-2015, 12:41 PM
Can't anymore. There's a rumor that he's taking a head basketball coach job at some place far from Westeros.***

Hahaha..I heard he's hiring Ned stark as his assistant.

I did see that the writers of the show confirmed that the show is going to pass the book up but they'll both have the same ending...

Also..I saw that there is going to be a POV character death this season that hasn't happened in the books yet...

Now at first I thought it may be the character that was stabbed at the end of "A dance with dragons"

But George pretty much confirmed that he is not dead

I hope it's not barriston selmy..badass character that everyone likes..that's pretty much the recipe for Martin to kill off a character

War Machine Dawg
03-23-2015, 03:11 PM
Hmmm.....wonder if it might not be Victarion, Davos, or Theon. I could see any of them going down as a shocker. Selmy might be a little too obvious.

And yeah, there's no way Jon is dead. My money is still on him being TPTWP as the son of Rhaegar and Lyana, marrying Dany, and them combining to wipe out The Others and their forces.

engie
03-23-2015, 04:18 PM
One that hasn't died in the books yet? Hmmmm...

One thing the TV show has already spoiled is which storylines are going to be important to the endgame. For instance -- not including the White Harbor storyline at all thusfar -- sending Rickon to Last Hearth instead of Skagos, no Arianne Martell, no Aegon, no Jon Con, etc...

Seems Umber is going to take the role of Manderly in the feast at Winterfell that we are no doubt destined to see -- if he ever falsely aligns with Bolton in the first place and isn't still in open rebellion. Let's remember that in the tv series, Greatjon is looking for Howland Reed and wasn't there for the Red Wedding, so he's presumably still free and fighting for the cause.

Seems the Riverlands storyline is just going to be glossed over. Jaime is headed to Dorne and could very well be filling the role of Arys Oakheart as well.

I have a feeling that this season is going to leave us hanging with Jon the same way the books have. And by season 6, hopefully we'll have TWOW...

BulldogBear
03-23-2015, 05:15 PM
I wonder if Arianne is supposed to show up this season. There may still be time for White Harbor.

If they killy Theon it will get rid of one AA theory!

engie
03-23-2015, 05:27 PM
Arianne is not. Or else, it's being kept secret...

Only Doran and Trystane Martell confirmed -- along with a couple of the sand snakes. And Areo Hotah will play a role as well(which really only would serve the purpose for the Oakheart storyline being taken up by another character)...

Someone is going to die in Dorne in the Oakheart role or some variation thereof IMO... Hope it isn't Jaime, but it very well may be -- as in the books -- his situation seems dire in the riverlands...

Uncle Ruckus
03-24-2015, 12:49 PM
IF there is going to be a replication of the Oakheart/Myrcella fiasco I think it will be Brohn that will be taking Oak's place. As for the other theories, some are flat out ridiculous. Jon is Danny's nephew, he is one of the heads of the dragon. Tyron is the 3rd head. On Tywin's wedding night the mad king didn't allow a traditional bedding between him and Joanna and that's where they're affair started, eventually producing Tyrion. Tywin claims Tyrion is in fact not his son in the book and says there is no way to prove it. Tyrion has blonde hair and different colored eyes, half Lannister half Targaerean. He's fascinated with dragons and lives in books like Rhaegar. That's pretty much all ingot except that I think Sanda ends up a queen finally and all of her fantasies come true but she still isn't happy.

BeardoMSU
04-07-2015, 12:09 PM
This is really funny if y'all haven't seen it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

Political Hack
04-07-2015, 02:33 PM
reading this thread has taught me that I know way less about this show than I thought I did.

BulldogBear
04-07-2015, 03:29 PM
This is really funny if y'all haven't seen it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BabsgCQhpu4

I was waiting for it... and waiting ...and finally my patience was rewarded at 4:36... I knew there had to be a "You know nothing Jon Snow" in there somewhere. But I like the way Ygritte says it: "You know nothin' Jon Snuh."

Dawgology
04-15-2015, 10:39 AM
I'm going with R+L = J. Jon is the combination of Stark and Targaryen...Ice and Fire. The black dragon that Dana can't control belongs to Jon. They will combine to melt the **** out of the Others.

Tbonewannabe
04-15-2015, 02:41 PM
With the show changing how Tyrion gets to meet Danerys, is the whole nephew thing a dead end? Are they also leaving the whole baby switch at the wall out of the show?

BulldogBear
04-15-2015, 07:52 PM
With the show changing how Tyrion gets to meet Danerys, is the whole nephew thing a dead end? Are they also leaving the whole baby switch at the wall out of the show?

I think the first is not dead yet. The second really has me wondering.

engie
04-15-2015, 10:52 PM
I'm going with R+L = J. Jon is the combination of Stark and Targaryen...Ice and Fire. The black dragon that Dana can't control belongs to Jon. They will combine to melt the **** out of the Others.

Except Dany has already ridden Drogon... Pretty safe to say he's hers...

Cabo32
04-16-2015, 12:19 AM
With the show changing how Tyrion gets to meet Danerys, is the whole nephew thing a dead end? Are they also leaving the whole baby switch at the wall out of the show?

#1.) by nephew, what do you mean?? Aegon/Jon con?

#2.) they never introduced dalla in the show much less their child...

It will be interesting to see how the show portrays the mance/rattleshirt ordeal

Tbonewannabe
04-17-2015, 11:16 AM
#1.) by nephew, what do you mean?? Aegon/Jon con?

#2.) they never introduced dalla in the show much less their child...

It will be interesting to see how the show portrays the mance/rattleshirt ordeal

I watched through first 4 episodes and it seems Tyrion might get to Mareen different than in the book unless something changes.

BulldogBear
04-19-2015, 09:37 PM
Well, does this mean Ja'qen is NOT at the Citadel as we all thought?

Or can any FM be "Ja'qen," which makes sense in that they are "no one?"

Or is the description of the guy at the Citadel just GRRM smokescreen?

engie
04-19-2015, 10:07 PM
Well, does this mean Ja'qen is NOT at the Citadel as we all thought?

Or can any FM be "Ja'qen," which makes sense in that they are "no one?"

Or is the description of the guy at the Citadel just GRRM smokescreen?

Ja'Qen is just a FM "face" kept in the room in the House of Black and White... I don't think any FM will ever be directly distinguishable...unless they want to be or the plot needs them to be...

A lot of seemingly important book stuff hasn't made the first 4 episodes of season 5... The TV deviation is, for the first time in my opinion, reducing itself to being supremely dumbed down and less interesting than the books. Too bad George is likely to be behind from here on out...

BulldogBear
04-19-2015, 10:25 PM
Ja'Qen is just a FM "face" kept in the room in the House of Black and White... I don't think any FM will ever be directly distinguishable...unless they want to be or the plot needs them to be...

A lot of seemingly important book stuff hasn't made the first 4 episodes of season 5... The TV deviation is, for the first time in my opinion, reducing itself to being supremely dumbed down and less interesting than the books. Too bad George is likely to be behind from here on out...

I personally think it will suck beyond all suckdom to fiinish before the books. If the show catches up I may buy dvds but not watch till all the books are read. But it will take a lot of discipline.

engie
04-22-2015, 09:09 PM
I personally think it will suck beyond all suckdom to fiinish before the books. If the show catches up I may buy dvds but not watch till all the books are read. But it will take a lot of discipline.

Pretty sure it's going to pass it in many respects this season. Problem is the show is diverging into a bunch of boring storylines no one cares much about. I feel like the show has mishandled everything for the past 3 episodes. Jamie in dorne? Who cares? Fixing the Riverlands and the strategic steps of his redemption would have been way more interesting. With all of the foreshadowing in the books of the Dayne importance, it drives me nuts that the show has excluded them. The Poppy storyline? Dgaf. Arya? Necessary but not really interesting yet. The only overly interesting storylines to me are the ones with Sansa and Jon Snow/Stannis..

I guess I do find the point they are driving home about Dany's inability to control the dragons interesting. They have keyed on that twice in two episodes. Zero white walker impending doom discussion. Hopefully that becomes key soon...

The show's primary intrigue has been its ability to eliminate loved characters and replace them with equally/more interesting characters that were tremendously interpreted to the screen. The Sand Snake storyline is way more interesting when Momma is trying to keep her daughters from turning into the war-embracing big sisters. Arianne's role just can not be filled in the way they are trying and it be as interesting to me

Cabo32
04-22-2015, 11:29 PM
So who all has seen the first 4 episodes?

BulldogBear
04-26-2015, 09:29 PM
Pretty sure it's going to pass it in many respects this season. Problem is the show is diverging into a bunch of boring storylines no one cares much about. I feel like the show has mishandled everything for the past 3 episodes. Jamie in dorne? Who cares? Fixing the Riverlands and the strategic steps of his redemption would have been way more interesting. With all of the foreshadowing in the books of the Dayne importance, it drives me nuts that the show has excluded them. The Poppy storyline? Dgaf. Arya? Necessary but not really interesting yet. The only overly interesting storylines to me are the ones with Sansa and Jon Snow/Stannis..

I guess I do find the point they are driving home about Dany's inability to control the dragons interesting. They have keyed on that twice in two episodes. Zero white walker impending doom discussion. Hopefully that becomes key soon...

The show's primary intrigue has been its ability to eliminate loved characters and replace them with equally/more interesting characters that were tremendously interpreted to the screen. The Sand Snake storyline is way more interesting when Momma is trying to keep her daughters from turning into the war-embracing big sisters. Arianne's role just can not be filled in the way they are trying and it be as interesting to me

Just watched ep5-3. Well, Sansa seems to have been inserted into the whole Jayne Poole role. Does this mean the Sansa book storyline is unimportant garbage? This divergence from the book feels big. I'm really kind of uncomfortable with it. She can work in the role. What I mean is the wasting of her book storyline unless you can think of some way to merge it that I'm missing.

As to who is going to die next episode I wonder if it's going to be Brienne. Show Brienne knows too much, especially that Arya is alive. And she won't be rescuing Sansa. That is.... unless the show Theon dies and Brienne sort of takes on the role of jumping from the walls at Winterhell.

tcdog70
04-27-2015, 02:09 PM
Seems that HBO is taking a sharp turn away from the Book.

Tbonewannabe
04-29-2015, 11:16 AM
Just watched ep5-3. Well, Sansa seems to have been inserted into the whole Jayne Poole role. Does this mean the Sansa book storyline is unimportant garbage? This divergence from the book feels big. I'm really kind of uncomfortable with it. She can work in the role. What I mean is the wasting of her book storyline unless you can think of some way to merge it that I'm missing.

As to who is going to die next episode I wonder if it's going to be Brienne. Show Brienne knows too much, especially that Arya is alive. And she won't be rescuing Sansa. That is.... unless the show Theon dies and Brienne sort of takes on the role of jumping from the walls at Winterhell.

Who actually cares that Arya is still alive? Bran is off doing his thing and Jon is sworn to the Night's Watch. Sansa is in the middle of Littlefinger's plans. I don't know other than just following around a Stark what Brienne will end up doing. I guess she could go protect Rickon.

Uncle Ruckus
04-30-2015, 06:13 PM
People who've read the book and knows where her story is going.

Tbonewannabe
04-30-2015, 07:09 PM
People who've read the book and knows where her story is going.

I meant in the actual story. Sansa is just worried about herself. Jon is completely dedicated to the wall. Bran has dedicated himself to the 3 eyed crow. Arya realized there wasn't anything left for her in Westeros. Brienne realized she didn't want her to follow her around. Arya is one of my favorite part of the books. Jon, Tyrion, and Arya are the best part of the books.

engie
05-01-2015, 10:05 PM
I meant in the actual story. Sansa is just worried about herself. Jon is completely dedicated to the wall. Bran has dedicated himself to the 3 eyed crow. Arya realized there wasn't anything left for her in Westeros. Brienne realized she didn't want her to follow her around. Arya is one of my favorite part of the books. Jon, Tyrion, and Arya are the best part of the books.

IMO that's the point -- seeing how far they can all drift before a climactic event puts them back together. Starks are the Kings of Winter -- hence how IMO their fortunes improve in WOW. Wish we were getting it this year...

BulldogBear
05-04-2015, 02:22 PM
Well. Ser Barristan then.

Does this mean he will die early in the WoW? IOW, they've moved it up? If not, I have trouble seeing the significance.

engie
05-04-2015, 02:27 PM
I'm pretty upset if they actually killed off the greatest fighter in Westeros in that fashion... I get that it's trying to build up the threat of the Poppy, but still... Let Greyworm be the one that goes...

Tbonewannabe
05-04-2015, 03:42 PM
I was really trying to think who would die but I didn't think of him. If they hold anywhere close to the books, what goes down in Dorne will be interesting to see the aftermath.

Uncle Ruckus
05-04-2015, 06:23 PM
Didn't expect that last night, especially since Barristan is a viewpoint character in the next book. With the way the scenes were playing out with Zo Loraq back and forth I think verifies that he is the harpy. He's also not at all what I envisioned when reading the book. I'm getting a bad feeling about Shireen and greyscale as well. I don't think hers wil come back but something will happen. With her bringing out emotions in Stannis the Mannis, her mom pretty much calling her an abomination, Red Woman saying she HAD to go with them to the wall, then her saying she has kings blood and we all know what that means to her. As far as grey scale someone will get it. I'm going with Jorah. Oh yeah, sand snakes are lame. Especially Obara, don't like how they changed that storyline.

Everyone says Barristan is the greatest fighter in Westeros. If Barristan is greater than Raegar, Robert killed Raegar, shouldn't Robert be considered?

Tbonewannabe
05-12-2015, 11:55 AM
Are they completely eliminating the Griff story line? Jorah getting greyscale saving Tyrion is different. I have started rereading the books. Does the TV show let you know that Lady Stoneheart and Griff aren't important?

Cabo32
05-12-2015, 12:56 PM
Are they completely eliminating the Griff story line? Jorah getting greyscale saving Tyrion is different. I have started rereading the books. Does the TV show let you know that Lady Stoneheart and Griff aren't important?

I think both of those storylines are going to be avoided in the show. The supporting characters in those stories aren't where they should be..
With griff..They're using a different route for tyrion
With stone heart..Brianne and pod aren't where they are in the books

It's starting to become clear that GRRM just isn't that good of a writer..he did a good job of creating a fantasy land/setting..but his story line just has too many tangents/loose ends

BulldogBear
05-12-2015, 01:36 PM
I think both of those storylines are going to be avoided in the show. The supporting characters in those stories aren't where they should be..
With griff..They're using a different route for tyrion
With stone heart..Brianne and pod aren't where they are in the books

It's starting to become clear that GRRM just isn't that good of a writer..he did a good job of creating a fantasy land/setting..but his story line just has too many tangents/loose ends

Well, we did get a sort of "The North Remembers" in this episode. I still think that storyline will occur but without Stoneheart's involvement. I also think (fake)Aegon will show up at some point. There probably gonna accelerate a few eastern things this season so they can bring it in with next season. Why pay an actor for more seasons than you need to? More surprised that Tristan's storyline is still in it. This makes me wonder if it is more important than I thought. Now, my mind is opening more to the thoery that he is not dead and in fact did succeed in stealing a dragon, with Drink covering for him.

Uncle Ruckus
05-13-2015, 03:13 PM
Part of your theory is correct, Trystane is in fact alive and well. Unfortunately his brother Quentyn was burned alive by the dragons. Wrong Martell.

BulldogBear
05-14-2015, 10:51 PM
Part of your theory is correct, Trystane is in fact alive and well. Unfortunately his brother Quentyn was burned alive by the dragons. Wrong Martell.

Can't believe I got them mixed up. I still wonder if they're gonna bring that storyline and/or Young Griff next season. They could still do it and maybe just don't wanna include too much in this season. They already seem to moving a lot of Essos stuff way too soon. They won't have anything to tell in season six. I really think one of those two will be the main Essos storyline.

BulldogBear
06-01-2015, 09:08 AM
So, now that we've confirmed what we suspected about Valyrian steel, I have a question for those that believe Jon is AA. I'm not convinced yet per sey, but it definitely possible. So if Jon is AA, then I think we have to assume that Longclaw is lightbringer. Seriously, just as in real world biblical passages, Bible scholars are often finding ancient texts/prophecies are more straightforward than you would think and it's usually an issue of language and translation that mystifies things. So AA has a flaming sword. Rabble Rabble... it certainly could be that its really as simple as something along the lines of AA has a Valyrian steel sword. It's specially forged, aka Dragon steel. Dragons are fire made flesh, fire has been put into the blade so to speak. So the thing I'd like to hear some speculation on is how/why house Mormant wouldve come into posession of this blade.

engie
06-01-2015, 09:26 AM
I don't believe that Longclaw is "Lightbringer" in the traditional sense from the old times. I believe that Azor Ahai's sword becomes Lightbringer because he wields it. Azor Ahai would predate steel in any form by hundreds if not thousands of years, as only the more recent Starks had steel swords. The older tombs had brass and iron weapons that had completely rotted away. Hell, even Ice(Ned Stark's Valyrian Steel greatsword that was melted down into Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper for Lannisters) was not the traditional Stark Greatsword ICE and had only been around for a couple hundred years at the time the novels take place.

Jon is the battleground on many layers. He's both fire and ice as a Targaryen and Stark. Not purely either.

I don't believe there's anything special about Longclaw beyond the fact that it is a valyrian steel sword. Now, Dawn, on the other hand.

Starting to buy into the theory that there is a definite connection between the Kings of Winter(Starks) and the White Walkers. Not sure if that connection is adversarial or friendly at this point. But the term KOW seems to put them on the same side. At least in relation to Fire anyway....

mcain31
06-01-2015, 11:01 AM
Since season finale is titled "Mother's Mercy", do you guys think Lady Stoneheart finally shows up? I believe that if Ramsay takes Sansa's to Catelyn's grave she will appear. I'm guessing Cersei does the walk of shame in the finale since that is also the Mother's Mercy.

BulldogBear
06-01-2015, 12:50 PM
Since season finale is titled "Mother's Mercy", do you guys think Lady Stoneheart finally shows up? I believe that if Ramsay takes Sansa's to Catelyn's grave she will appear. I'm guessing Cersei does the walk of shame in the finale since that is also the Mother's Mercy.
I wish but I don't think so. I'm looking for Danaerys to ride off on Drogon as the big Cliffhanger of the season. Bronn will probably bite the dust next week though I'm still trying to figure why (in show) Hotah will have reason to kill him.

engie
06-01-2015, 12:54 PM
Being that the Riverlands storyline has been abandoned altogether, I don't think we will be seeing LSH. Particularly not in a cameo. If they bring her back, it will be with a larger role to play.

Cersei will walk, but it will not be enough to atone for her sins. Been enough easter eggs this season to show that her trial by combat is going to happen, and the unMountain will represent her. Yet to be seen who will be the champion for the faith.

Just as in the books, I'm fully expecting this to end in cliffhanger, along with Jon's storyline, Dany's storyline, Stannis/Winterfell storyline, Dorne's, etc. There is not going to be any closure this season IMO...just more questions to ask... exactly at the same point that the books currently are...

mcain31
06-01-2015, 01:02 PM
I feel bad for Shireen. I think either Melissandre or Ramsay will take her out in episode 10

Uncle Ruckus
06-01-2015, 01:18 PM
I'm not sold that we'll see her trial by combat how we would in the books. I think Loras or Lancel will be facing Robert Strong. With the mountain 'dead' who does Loras really have to fear? There's no way he'll confess to being gay and he'll demand a trial by combat and could face Strong for whatever reason. Or Lancel will be representing the faith when Cersei demands a trial and he'll face Robert Strong. Either way both Lancel and Loras could die since they're health is in question in the books. I did see where they are casting for next season and one of the descriptions meets exactly what the priest from the island (Meribald?) would be. Maybe we'll have no combats this year and his introduction will lead us to the faiths representative and we'll have the Clegane Bowl.

mcain31
06-01-2015, 01:57 PM
Starting to buy into the theory that there is a definite connection between the Kings of Winter(Starks) and the White Walkers. Not sure if that connection is adversarial or friendly at this point. But the term KOW seems to put them on the same side. At least in relation to Fire anyway....

I think I also am starting to think that old Starks make up the White Walker council. Do you think Benjen is the Night's King?

BulldogBear
06-01-2015, 02:47 PM
Being that the Riverlands storyline has been abandoned altogether, I don't think we will be seeing LSH. Particularly not in a cameo. If they bring her back, it will be with a larger role to play.

Cersei will walk, but it will not be enough to atone for her sins. Been enough easter eggs this season to show that her trial by combat is going to happen, and the unMountain will represent her. Yet to be seen who will be the champion for the faith.

Just as in the books, I'm fully expecting this to end in cliffhanger, along with Jon's storyline, Dany's storyline, Stannis/Winterfell storyline, Dorne's, etc. There is not going to be any closure this season IMO...just more questions to ask... exactly at the same point that the books currently are...

Champion for the faith will be the Hound, unless they change it from where the books seem to be going. I really don't think it's gonna be this season though.

The Hound is the Valonquar... the younger sibling that will bring about her doom... by defeated her champion in the trail by combat. They haven't talked about that yet. It was not mentioned in the flashback about Maggie the Frog. It seemed truncated. Perhaps Sandor will appear in s5e10 shortly after finishing the flashback and Circe will sheit herself when he appears and she finally "gets it" about what the prophecy meant. But, if so, I still think it will be more cliffhangerish and the fight will be next season.


Ruckus, I don't think it'll Loras as he is one of the accused. He can champion himself but IDK about another.

McCain, I kind of wondered the same thing. I have read that HBO is calling the horny crowned White Walker (that sounds horrific) the Nights King. I think Stannis or Jon may be on path to supplant him if this is true. I more and more believe that the Starks were once on the "other" side (HA!), seeing as they are kings of Winter. "Winter is coming" may be a threat not a warning. "Winterfell" is possibly where "Winter" fell (was defeated) as in the final battle of the war of the dawn. Saw an interesting read on that one time but I have no idea where to find it again.

Uncle Ruckus
06-01-2015, 03:24 PM
What I said may have been confusing, I didn't mean that Loras will champion anyone. I meant I don't believe we'll be seeing Cersei's trial this year, but we could see Loras have one. I just don't see the faith introducing the Hound this year without anyone going to thru isles yet. After that little clip of Robert Strong under the sheet you have to think he'll be introduced before seasons end so I thought he may face someone in combat. Most likely Strong's only appearance will be catching Cersei after her walk though and we'll have no Clegane Bowl until next year. I don't think the Hound is thru Volanquar though, I think it is more than likely Tommen.

SheltonChoked
06-01-2015, 03:32 PM
A few things. First, last night's show was the best one yet of the series. I could watch Tyrion and Dany talk all day. Tyrion is in his element as Hand to the Queen. He discovered it under Jeoffery, I think he will come into his own with Dany. Well at least for another 2 weeks anyway.

I've been waiting for Cercei to get he comeuppance, although the trial by combat will be next season, I think it will be Lancel that kills Robert Strong on the show. I just don't think the Hound is coming back on TV.

I also think this is the last season for Ramsey, and Theon gets to do it. Although it could be early next season.

There will be no Stoneheart in the show. Doesn't fit anymore. The Mother's Mercy is Cercei's walk, Dany's ride off on Drogon, and Sheeren's sacrifice to the red god by her mom.

War Machine Dawg
06-01-2015, 06:30 PM
I'm not totally caught up on the TV show (still about 2 eps behind), but I'll chime in here. I still think Jon is TPTWP due to R+L=J. Bran will be champion for the non-human forces. This season will definitely end with Dany being taken off to the Sea of Grass by Drogon, Jon being stabbed by the Watch, etc. I could see Theon taking out Ramsey at some point, but it could play out a different way. The Hound returning to face "Robert Strong" would be epic, but I'm not counting on it. The books *seem* to have established pretty clearly that he's dead, as did the TV show. (I should probably go back and check, but we did see his eyes glaze over, didn't we?)

I also think we can't read too much into the changes on tv versus the books. While there's no question both of them are going to the same ending, I think how they are getting there will be relatively different. Some of the important things will stay and some will change so those of us who read the books will still have reason to buy and rad them after the show ends, since GRRM isn't going to get them finished before the show is over. Plus, GRRM can do things in the books that don't really work on TV - look at the Whitebeard/Selmy gimmick. That's why I'm not overly concerned about what changes are being made by HBO. They will be things that make sense for the story they are telling but still leave GRRM room to tell the story he wants to tell in the books.

Uncle Ruckus
06-03-2015, 08:32 AM
The Hound returning to face "Robert Strong" would be epic, but I'm not counting on it. The books *seem* to have established pretty clearly that he's dead, as did the TV show. (I should probably go back and check, but we did see his eyes glaze over, didn't we?)
.
People believe the hound is alive from certain hints in the books. When Brienne goes to the quiet isle they meet the elder and he tells them how the hound is dead over and over, never saying sandor clegane. Then there is the gravedigger guy there who is huge, bigger than brienne and has his face covered. At one point a dog (hound) walks up to him and he pets it. The hounds horse is also there and it's been said before than only one person could control it, if that's so then how did it get there? The path to getting to the isles is extremely difficult so that makes it even more unlikely that anyone besides the hound could get it there. Also, the elder brother says that he died on the trident but clearly he didn't as he's alive so the idea of death means something completely different to him.

BulldogBear
06-03-2015, 09:02 AM
THIS^

It's the same metaphor that we as Christians use that we are dead to the old self and alive to Christ. What the man meant was that the Hound was indeed dead but Sandor Clegane was a new man Or something along that line. So he was telling the truth but also protecting what would seem to be Clegane's and/or the faith's desire for him to remain anonymous. By digging all those graves he may have even been performing some sort of penitent gesture such as digging a grave for all his victims.

We already know to be suspicious of anything that happens "off-screen' in both the books and show. In neither has anyone seen a dead Sandor Clegane. WMD, go re-read that chapter. It's AFFC. Brienne VI (chapter 31).

ETA: chapter citation

Dawgology
06-04-2015, 08:49 AM
So, now that we've confirmed what we suspected about Valyrian steel, I have a question for those that believe Jon is AA. I'm not convinced yet per sey, but it definitely possible. So if Jon is AA, then I think we have to assume that Longclaw is lightbringer. Seriously, just as in real world biblical passages, Bible scholars are often finding ancient texts/prophecies are more straightforward than you would think and it's usually an issue of language and translation that mystifies things. So AA has a flaming sword. Rabble Rabble... it certainly could be that its really as simple as something along the lines of AA has a Valyrian steel sword. It's specially forged, aka Dragon steel. Dragons are fire made flesh, fire has been put into the blade so to speak. So the thing I'd like to hear some speculation on is how/why house Mormant wouldve come into posession of this blade.

Let me give you my crazy theory! Jon is, indeed, AA. When he is stabbed and killed at the end of the last book his transformation will begin to AA. The prophecy says that AA will be borm among salt an smoke and that he will pull the Lightbringer from a fire. So, as is common with the Night's Watch, they will burn his body and (low and behold) he won't burn because he is still alive and is Targeryen. So he will arise from the smoke with his sword which may (at that point) literally burst into flames. Boom...transformation to AA complete...and awesome!

Uncle Ruckus
06-05-2015, 08:31 AM
I'm not completely sold he'll die in the show like in the book the more I think about it. They're making him way too important. And if he doesn't burn it won't be because he is a targ, that's a big misconception. Targ's burn like everyone else, several have died from burning. Danny didn't burn due to all the magic and sorcery with the gypsy witch that she was burning, that or she is unique and AA, which I believe. She was born in salt, one of the worst storms of their time on Dragonstone, and again in smoke with her dragons, plus the red comet immediately after their hatching. I don't know if Lightbridge will be an actual sword or if it will be dragon but she will kill Jorah or Dario to fulfill the prophecy. If Jon is indeed AA then it will be Arya that he kills with Longclaw while shes under disguise as a faceless man.

War Machine Dawg
06-06-2015, 10:45 AM
THIS^

It's the same metaphor that we as Christians use that we are dead to the old self and alive to Christ. What the man meant was that the Hound was indeed dead but Sandor Clegane was a new man Or something along that line. So he was telling the truth but also protecting what would seem to be Clegane's and/or the faith's desire for him to remain anonymous. By digging all those graves he may have even been performing some sort of penitent gesture such as digging a grave for all his victims.

We already know to be suspicious of anything that happens "off-screen' in both the books and show. In neither has anyone seen a dead Sandor Clegane. WMD, go re-read that chapter. It's AFFC. Brienne VI (chapter 31).

ETA: chapter citation

Based on your advice, I went back and re-read the chapter's pertinent parts. There's definitely a few hints that could be construed as The Hound being alive. "The man you're hunting is dead." - Elder Brother I could definitely see that as a metaphor, particularly since they had tried to establish the Elder's gift of healing. That said, being a former knight, the Elder could have meant it quite literally. Certainly an interesting theory, though. The Hound still being alive would be epic.

BulldogBear
06-07-2015, 11:41 PM
Well. I want a new book by next season. The Essos storyline has all but run a out if material unless they are planning to bring in Tattered Prince, JonCon, Aegon, Quentin story lines late. IdK if Jon/Ghost stabbing will take place this season or not. I hope not. I guess they've cut out Yara/Asha and Deepwood Motte episode. Shireen execution perplexes me.

Uncle Ruckus
06-08-2015, 10:55 AM
Yara and Balon were credited for this season so I'm guessing he dies and we're being set up for Euron on S6. I think Jon gets stabbed at the end of the episode and TV viewers are left hanging. Hopefully we'll what Varys has been up to and Brienne storm the castle to save Sansa. What's going to happen when she runs across Standiss' army? She made it clear her priority is to avenge Renly in episode 3. What is going to be the result of Shireen? Maybe Sansa and Reek get revenge on the Bolton's due to her kingsblood sacrifice.

SheltonChoked
06-08-2015, 05:14 PM
I have no idea what they are going to do for next season. It seems strange to even start the Ironborn side-plot with where they are now in the narrative. Likewise the way the passed over Dorne and the riverlands.


I guess we could catch up with Bran. But we have caught up with the books now (and gone past them in some respects). So it should be fun for everyone from here on out.

Too bad George will write for another 10 years before the books will catch the show.

Cabo32
06-08-2015, 07:30 PM
They're caught up with the books in pretty much every aspect of the storyline..except for one major part in the book...which will probably be the last scene in the season finale...I'm guessing that Olley kid will probably be the most hated character on tv Sunday night at 9pm.

War Machine Dawg
06-08-2015, 11:43 PM
They're caught up with the books in pretty much every aspect of the storyline..except for one major part in the book...which will probably be the last scene in the season finale...I'm guessing that Olley kid will probably be the most hated character on tv Sunday night at 9pm.

Certainly seem to be foreshadowing that, don't they? That said, I'm guessing he won't be the one to do it. It's too obvious and I think the writers will try to surprise us. Plus, it will be more in line with what actually happens if they have several of the Brothers do it in order to "protect the Watch." They sorta hinted it with Ser Alliser's comment to Jon after letting him through the Wall.

mcain31
06-10-2015, 11:52 AM
Another interesting take on R+L=J from Reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1py3ee/spoilers_all_i_know_the_gamechanging_secret_in/


The Theory
Rhaegar's unique silver-stringed harp is in Lyanna's tomb.
"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.
"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire."
ACOK, Daenerys IV
The quote is about Aegon and it's between Elia and Rhaegar. Recall what Marwyn says, "Prophecy is like a treacherous woman". Rhaegar may have been wrong about Aegon; or more likely he believes that one, all or any of the three 'heads of the dragon' are/is the prince that was promised.
Thematically it's more sensible if Jon Snow is the prince that was promised and especially when you consider his parentage. Simply combine the Stark and Targaryen words. This isn't exactly a novel concept, many ASOIAF fans have thought the same.
The Importance of Legitimacy
I was deeply conflicted when I first read ADWD. I've been a longtime believer in the R+L=J theory, so I have a personal bias. I struggled with this bias over Aegon/Young Griff, but intellectually I knew I couldn't answer the question of who is actually legitimate.
It then occurred to me that the more practical question is how to prove said legitimacy. This poses a challenge to both Aegon and Jon. Looking at them closely:
Aegon
It's not enough to just show up looking like a Targaryen or declaring yourself one; you need legitimacy, you need proof. The lords of Westeros already doubt his legitimacy so he must prove it or subjugate them all. At some point winning bannermen via a legitimate claim will be more valuable than conflict. It doesn't help that he's backed by the Golden Company either. It is telling that he and his advisors all know this, which is why he is initially bent on securing Daenerys's hand in marriage; so he has her blood and her dragons to establish him.
Jon
He's supposedly dead. Keep in mind, if the notion of establishing some connection between Jon and Rhaegar is important to the story irrespective of his living status, then this theory is still useful. No one aside from Howland Reed has knowledge of Jon's heritage, so he has no self-driven need to find something like this harp. But for those of us who would like to see him revealed as a bastard- or trueborn Targaryen, Azor Ahai or the prince that was promised, he must also prove it to himself and/or others.
So obviously we then ask "What would significantly bolster a claim of Targaryen ancestry?" My thoughts immediately ran to the Valyrian swords Dark Sister and Blackfyre. Unfortunately both are associated with bastard lines of Targaryens, each attainted with histories that would actually detract from a pretenders' legitimacy, even if I think Bloodraven is a badass. Both have also gone unseen for a number of years and there could be serious logistical questions regarding whether they've stayed in families of true or bastard Targaryen blood.
But this thought process is revealing; we readers inherently know that if any kind of proof exists; it will be something both
Well-known to the high lords and ladies of the realm
Universally recognized as a symbol of the true Targaryen lineage
We can also exploit some knowledge of factors that exist outside of the books themselves. In the fifth book of a seven book series, it would be sophomoric to introduce a new piece of evidence to the story merely for the sake of answering the riddle of legitimacy. It would be seen by readers as a cop-out. GRRM has already stated that he wants to avoid writing such an ending to the series because he was unhappy with the ending of Lost. Additionally, knowing GRRM, the evidence is likely something lurking beneath our very noses. The kind of thing we'll kick ourselves over when you look back.
So while I was brainstorming every possible Targaryen artifact, tome and treasure I had a sudden tangential thought, Rhaegar never wanted to be a fighter, he only did it to meet Lyanna. He would have much rather continued playing his harp. That idea may not be true and it's not important to this theory; only the fact that the harp jumped into my mind. That's when the epiphany hit me like an anvil. It's that damn harp.
A Reluctant Agreement to a Tricky Promise
I can't deductively prove that harp is in Lyanna's tomb. What I did was speculate the circumstances that led to it's being there with a high degree of confidence. I then considered this theory against alternatives using the notions of 'least complicated' and 'most relevant to the narrative' to arrive at the conclusion that this is more likely that any alternatives. It is a puzzle piece that solves more of the puzzle than any other possibility.
The circumstances regarding how the harp ends up in Lyanna's tomb:
Rhaegar left it at the Tower of Joy
Rhaegar loved to play his harp. It's something everyone familiar with him says. He elopes with Lyanna for almost a year before returning to King's Landing and then to his doom at the Trident. It's unlikely that Rhaegar would leave his harp behind while 'retreating' to the Tower of Joy.
After the outbreak of Robert's Rebellion, it appears he waited until it was clear that Lyanna was with child. Assuming he planned on returning, it is likely he would not carry things to war that he didn't plan on using or would be coming back to. Taking it to war or to King's Landing also puts it at risk of being destroyed should he lose. He also may have left it as a symbol for Lyanna of his affection and promise to return.
At the very least, there has been no mention of it at any time during or after Robert's Rebellion, implying it vanished somewhere.
Rhaegar may have calculated the odds of his own demise. Leaving the harp also may have been a deliberate attempt to leave a trace of his lineage; Particularly if he really feels like Lyanna's child will be the prince that was promised. This would be based on the fact that his harp is so unique, it's presence in the wrong place would suggest a relationship with Rhaegar.
Now we all know what happened after that. The Battle of the Trident, the fight at the Tower of Joy. Promise Me, Ned; and a bed of blood. Or do we?
"Promise me, Ned" and Eddard's reluctance.
Imagine someone saying to you "Promise me ,<yourname>". Imagine it being said multiple times. If you're like me, the most immediate thing that comes to mind is someone asking you to vow to do something you'd be otherwise reluctant to do or something they might not otherwise trust that you'll do; i.e., "Promise me you'll clean this mess up", means "I know you don't want to do it, but please do it."
As existing theories point out, asking to be buried in the Winterfell crypts seems mundane for a dying wish (ironic after you read this theory). The real reason is shown below, but first we need context.
Ned loves his family and as shown at his death is willing to lie when necessary to protect his kin. I have no doubt that even if Lyanna hadn't asked him, he would have taken Jon in. As many challenges as he would incur from adopting Jon, he would do it. But going back to what I said about the nature of asking promises of others, Lyanna most likely asked him to do something he was apprehensive about. What seems likely is that she is asking him to preserve Jon's heritage, which is something Ned would never want to do. Remember that Ned has endured the loss of his father, his brother, Jon's half-brother and half-sister and is witnessing the death of his sister. Any sane man would be understandably traumatized. He's seen too much death and war. With the apparent end of the Targaryen dynasty at hand, there seems to be no practical reason to ever telling Jon his ancestry. Such would only re-open wounds just starting to heal (at that time), tarnish Lyanna's image to the kingdom, and likely result in Jon's death both as a Targaryen and as a bastard pretender (consider that the nature of his parentage recalls the bastards of the Blackfyre Rebellion).
There are several possible reasons why Lyanna could want Jon to know his bloodline:
She also believes in the prophecy of the prince that was promised.
She doesn't want him to live never knowing who his mother and father are.
'It all can't have been for nothing'. She does this for the personal reasons of wanting to feel like her and Rhaegar's deaths weren't just for a vain cause.
I surmise that either Ned would vocally argue that he would never tell Jon or that Lyanna just implicitly knows he doesn't want to.
Lyanna demands that Ned promise to bury her in Winterfell. With some personal effects (harp included).
It stands to reason that if Lyanna really felt that there must be some final way for Jon to find out, or that some evidence (even dubious) her liaison with Rhaegar was mutual should be preserved, Lyanna would have to demand a promise from Ned. A promise that he could keep, that didn't seem to put too many people at risk. While asking to be buried in the crypts in Winterfell is unusual because no women are buried there, it's a far cry less hazardous than telling Jon who his parents are. It's further plausible that if there was any evidence of their relationship, she could have easily convinced him that hiding it in her tomb would be the best way to conceal it.
This creates a beautiful duality between the original, straight-forward interpretations of 'Promise me, Ned' readers first have, and the more intuitive interpretations put forth by the R+L=J theorists.
The Importance of Tomb Selection
Setting aside speculations about the promise Lyanna asked of Ned, there are several intriguing factors surrounding the crypts in the context of her burial there and the possible contents within her tomb. She may have known that these factors might eventually attract attention to her tomb.
There are no other female tombs.
The sole exception in a population set as large as 'all the lords of Winterfell back to the time of Bran the Builder', being the only female tomb is an extreme outlier. It draws attention to itself on that basis alone.
Only the male tombs have swords across their laps, intended to conceal their spirits within.
The importance of this is entirely speculative; but it could be implied that the absence of the sword for Lyanna implies that her tomb does not contain her spirit and is possibly less ominous, opening it if necessary is less abominable as opening others.
What better place to hide secret Targaryen relics than in a tomb you know Robert will never defile?
Talk about hiding in plain sight. If there were any Targaryen relics of importance at the Tower of Joy that should be hidden in order to clear Lyanna of any 'wrong-doing' in her dalliance with Rhaegar, hiding them in a place where Robert would never think or dare to look is brilliant.
The big question that remains is "How does Jon or anyone know to look in the tomb?"
Jon Snow has had frequent ominous dreams of a mysterious destiny that awaits him in the crypts. Bran and Rickon dreamed of Eddard trying to talk to them about Jon in the crypts, and Eddard regretted things he never told to Jon while in the black cells. As for how Jon might learn, consider the possibility that Jon may have a Bran-like dream or vision while he is dead/warged. If you remember that dream of his in the Winterfell crypts ?the one he can never finish because he always wakes up? Well, in this dead/warged state he can't wake up and is forced to finish the dream. This dream gives him the knowledge he needs.
The Relevance of the Harp
What is the significance of the harp? Is it just a random object thrown in the story and being mistakenly attributed too much importance in this post? What would other people in Westeros think of it? Does it tie into an character development, larger plots or even into the larger themes of the series?
The harp has been mentioned in four of the five books currently in print.
Almost every time the subject of Rhaegar is discussed at any length the harp is mentioned. Particularly when characters are reflecting on their experiences with him. The only exception I can think of is Jaime's remembered talk with him before Rhaegar departed for the Trident.
It's unique silver strings are mentioned every time.
And I do mean every time.
It seems to have a unique sound.
When people recall his playing, they often recall that his songs or the instrument itself create a melancholy tune.
His harp would have been widely known.
Not only are there many times where Rhaegar is explicitly remembered to have played his harp, it is implied that Rhaegar played at many tournaments and other gatherings in general and that he played it a lot on his sojourns to Summerhall. This suggests that it has been exposed to a wide variety of people.
Major players already introduced have prominent knowledge of the harp.
Cersei, Jorah Mormont, Daenerys, Ser Barristan and most importantly Jon Connington are all characters who recall seeing the harp. With Connington's looming death anything that suggests there may be another of Rhaegar's line might sow the seeds of doubt in him.
The emergence of the harp may help establish legitimacy for Jon if that becomes important.
The harp alone can't prove anything. I do think it's more useful than a bridal cloak or a document alone, since it has the distinction of being something a lot of people saw during Rhaegar's life; other items can be disputed. The harp in combination with other objects however, and especially if the opening of the tomb is witnesses by people of note, could substantiate his bloodline and perhaps his inheritance. Coupled with Jon Snow's eventually legitimization as a Stark (:D) this will give him the entire North.
'Waking a dragon from stone'
If Jon or someone retrieves this evidence from the tomb, it seems likely that it may amount to the completion of the prophecy regarding waking dragons out of stone. This could imply that Jon is Azor Ahai, or instead the person who retrieves the harp.
Finally, out of all the passages in the books related to harps, only one is in the abstract, and is rather eye-catching in light of this theory:
"A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands." - Littlefinger
Every word drips, pregnant with meaning; true to GRRM's style.
Mic drop

War Machine Dawg
06-10-2015, 03:25 PM
Hell of a theory, cain. Certainly lots of circumstantial evidence to support it. The one problem I have is with the "Promise me" part of the theory. I've always assumed Lyanna was asking Ned to hide Jon's lineage from literally everyone including Jon himself and to raise Jon as his son. In her mind, it was the only way to keep Jon safe. But she also knew Ned's honor would make participating in such a grand deception extremely difficult for him. But I could also see her extracting a promise from Ned to bury her with an artifact that indisputably belonged to Rhaegar, assuming her relationship with Rhaegar was mutual. Regardless, it's an interesting thought.

curmudgeon
06-11-2015, 10:37 AM
I'm beginning to think the High Sparrow is indeed Howland Reed, and will drop the R+L=J on Westeros from a position of power.

After he takes down the entire Lannister family.

engie
06-11-2015, 10:53 AM
That actually pretty closely aligns with my own theory on R+L=J. The question is in the revealing, proving, and why it matters. Jon would have to betray everything it means to be a Stark prettymuch in order for it to matter -- or the Night's Watch vows have to be eradicated altogether.

engie
06-11-2015, 10:59 AM
I'm beginning to think the High Sparrow is indeed Howland Reed, and will drop the R+L=J on Westeros from a position of power.

After he takes down the entire Lannister family.

Not buying. How would he know he would ever be in position to gain true power? How would he know he would be armed in the foolish manner that he actually was? What would be his beef with the Tyrells -- knowing that he has to proceed with caution now, lest he get KL taken and all the small folk he caters to slaughtered by Randyl Tarly.

I think it more likely that he's in the Neck at Greywater Watch preparing for the war to come from the north. He seemed to be one that knew of magic and the coming issues in advance, as well as someone that understood prophecy. IMO there is COTF in his blood. The importance of Moat Cailin has never been greater. Given what we know about it's history, I find it as good as any place to make the true stand against the WW.

Cabo32
06-11-2015, 01:49 PM
Not buying either..they would have cast a much younger actor for that role. Remember, the show writers know how the story ends

Cabo32
06-11-2015, 01:51 PM
Whomever wrote the theory has wayyy to much time on their hands. The R+L=J theory is pretty cut and dry

Cabo32
06-11-2015, 01:55 PM
I tell yall one theory that has been destroyed..the whole mance rayder is really...(fill in the blank)...in disguise.

War Machine Dawg
06-11-2015, 02:16 PM
That actually pretty closely aligns with my own theory on R+L=J. The question is in the revealing, proving, and why it matters. Jon would have to betray everything it means to be a Stark pretty much in order for it to matter -- or the Night's Watch vows have to be eradicated altogether.

How so? If he's truly Targaryen and a blending of the Northern & Southern bloodlines, I'm not seeing how that betrays what it means to be a Stark. He'll liberate the North and give it to Sansa. As for the Night's Watch, he can be legitimized and excused from his oaths by the legitimate ruler of Westeros. If Dany shows up and unites everyone, why wouldn't she excuse him from service to be co-ruler with her? Hell, Stannis already offered him that very deal. And he was stabbed by the Watch for deciding to march on Winterfell.

Then again, maybe I'm and idiot and need it spelled out. If so, apologies.

BulldogBear
06-11-2015, 02:53 PM
I tell yall one theory that has been destroyed..the whole mance rayder is really...(fill in the blank)...in disguise.

No. Mance "died" at the stake in the book too. Still holding out I am!!!

engie
06-11-2015, 03:17 PM
Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.
To "liberate the north" is to break these vows. Breaking these vows is betraying what it means to be a Stark. Given his show clash with the WW -- it really doesn't make sense for him to turn his attention to the realms of men regardless of what happens. None of that is the real war. Unless he's forced with Ramsay backing him into a corner with the threat of annihilation from the south. And IMO there's a decent chance the NW doesn't exist anymore when he comes back. WunWun is about to wipe out Castle Black for that little mutiny. It was just stupid on their part. Might as well have stabbed Stannis while he was posted at Castle Black if the goal was to commit suicide to the whole castle. For Jon to ever actually hold the north -- he also has to usurp Bran and Rickon -- who Jon has a very good idea are still alive through their meeting with Sam and coming into contact with one of their direwolves.

Stannis also offered Jon something that was not his to offer. And is in distinct defiance/at odds with Jon's "true" claim. For him to be a Targ gives him a claim that supercedes Stannis' claim. Stannis would not support him given those conditions. And to be clear, Stannis didn't offer him any "co-rulership" -- he offered to legitimize him as a Stark which would give him a legitimate claim to Winterfell and the wardenship of the north -- but you still have to defeat the Lannisters/Tyrells/fAegon/Martells and actually hold the Iron Throne for any of that to matter. Jon is still not a trueborn Stark nor a trueborn Targ, even as a Targ/Stark bastard. He can't hold Winterfell ahead of Bran and Rickon. He can't heir the Targ dynasty ahead of Dany. And by the Laws of the Seven, there is no way he's considered a true Targ, since he was a bastard conceived while Elia was still alive.

We have no record of anyone ever being excused from their oath in the NW that I'm aware of. We know it was offered to Aemon and refused. And why would someone in power offer to take less power in order to give it away to someone they have never met? Why would Daenerys offer that up? It just doesn't make sense. Even if it is apparent that he is Rhaegar's offspring. It still becomes -- "why does it matter and what can he do with that power"? He's just not in position to play the "Game of Thrones". He's on the true front lines. I do agree that he's probably the main/most important character in the struggle -- as both Fire and Ice. Maybe he's the champion for both or the valonquar for both. I don't know. He may be the ultimate hero of the story -- but he's not finishing it in any great position of power in regards to the Seven Kingdoms IMO. Even if he's the one that actually saves them. He's the Stanislav Petrov of the story IMO.

SheltonChoked
06-12-2015, 12:59 PM
I think that's why Jon got stabbed.. Jon has to die so his watch can end. Then he can be freed from his oath.

War Machine Dawg
06-12-2015, 06:49 PM
To "liberate the north" is to break these vows. Breaking these vows is betraying what it means to be a Stark. Given his show clash with the WW -- it really doesn't make sense for him to turn his attention to the realms of men regardless of what happens. None of that is the real war. Unless he's forced with Ramsay backing him into a corner with the threat of annihilation from the south. And IMO there's a decent chance the NW doesn't exist anymore when he comes back. WunWun is about to wipe out Castle Black for that little mutiny. It was just stupid on their part. Might as well have stabbed Stannis while he was posted at Castle Black if the goal was to commit suicide to the whole castle. For Jon to ever actually hold the north -- he also has to usurp Bran and Rickon -- who Jon has a very good idea are still alive through their meeting with Sam and coming into contact with one of their direwolves.

Stannis also offered Jon something that was not his to offer. And is in distinct defiance/at odds with Jon's "true" claim. For him to be a Targ gives him a claim that supercedes Stannis' claim. Stannis would not support him given those conditions. And to be clear, Stannis didn't offer him any "co-rulership" -- he offered to legitimize him as a Stark which would give him a legitimate claim to Winterfell and the wardenship of the north -- but you still have to defeat the Lannisters/Tyrells/fAegon/Martells and actually hold the Iron Throne for any of that to matter. Jon is still not a trueborn Stark nor a trueborn Targ, even as a Targ/Stark bastard. He can't hold Winterfell ahead of Bran and Rickon. He can't heir the Targ dynasty ahead of Dany. And by the Laws of the Seven, there is no way he's considered a true Targ, since he was a bastard conceived while Elia was still alive.

We have no record of anyone ever being excused from their oath in the NW that I'm aware of. We know it was offered to Aemon and refused. And why would someone in power offer to take less power in order to give it away to someone they have never met? Why would Daenerys offer that up? It just doesn't make sense. Even if it is apparent that he is Rhaegar's offspring. It still becomes -- "why does it matter and what can he do with that power"? He's just not in position to play the "Game of Thrones". He's on the true front lines. I do agree that he's probably the main/most important character in the struggle -- as both Fire and Ice. Maybe he's the champion for both or the valonquar for both. I don't know. He may be the ultimate hero of the story -- but he's not finishing it in any great position of power in regards to the Seven Kingdoms IMO. Even if he's the one that actually saves them. He's the Stanislav Petrov of the story IMO.

I can completely agree with that.

And I didn't mean to imply that Stannis offered to make him co-ruler, because he clearly didn't. Just that he'd been offered legitimacy and to be excused from the Watch.

Tbonewannabe
06-13-2015, 10:55 PM
I have been thinking this myself. Jon "dies" and his watch is ended. Maybe he realizes he is needed elsewhere.

engie
06-13-2015, 11:04 PM
I have been thinking this myself. Jon "dies" and his watch is ended. Maybe he realizes he is needed elsewhere.

Too cheap... For the books anyway. Where else would he be needed? He's fighting on the front lines of the real war and IMO leaving there doesn't make a bit of sense.

For Jon to leave, the wall has to come down IMO...

Tbonewannabe
06-14-2015, 11:05 PM
Too cheap... For the books anyway. Where else would he be needed? He's fighting on the front lines of the real war and IMO leaving there doesn't make a bit of sense.

For Jon to leave, the wall has to come down IMO...

Someone has to rally the rest of the kingdom. Unless a lot more people show up, the Nights watch is just going to be a speed bump.

Tbonewannabe
06-14-2015, 11:11 PM
I believe with the Red priestess showing up at the wall that Jon will be brought back to life. Maybe she sees in the flames Davos has to go get Rickon. I enjoy Arya story but unless she is going to kill Cersi I don't understand how she relates back to Westeros.

I am very interested to see if they really killed Marcella. I know the prophecy says all the kids will die. It is interesting to see if some of the book storylines actually aren't going anywhere.

BulldogBear
06-15-2015, 12:58 AM
I believe with the Red priestess showing up at the wall that Jon will be brought back to life. Maybe she sees in the flames Davos has to go get Rickon. I enjoy Arya story but unless she is going to kill Cersi I don't understand how she relates back to Westeros.

I am very interested to see if they really killed Marcella. I know the prophecy says all the kids will die. It is interesting to see if some of the book storylines actually aren't going anywhere.

She won't die. The sand snake with a thing for Bronn slipped him the antidote when she got Frisky with him before he got on the boat. Just as in the book, there is an attempt on her life that she will survive. What I can't figure out is where they will go. I don't think she's actually headed to KL in book so I'm thinking shipwreck maybe?

Tbonewannabe
06-15-2015, 04:11 PM
I wonder if the sand snakes have much left in the show next season.

War Machine Dawg
06-16-2015, 02:19 AM
Someone has to rally the rest of the kingdom. Unless a lot more people show up, the Nights watch is just going to be a speed bump.

This. The Night's Watch, even with the Wildlings, isn't in a position to fight a war with the Walkers and the Others. In the books, they were opening some of the other castles along the Wall, but they really didn't have enough men to do it. They need the manpower of a united Westeros. That's why the politics behind capturing the Iron Throne matters. And Jon is apparently the only one with the first hand experience, speaking ability, and clout to actually convince the Seven Families to band together.....if he can prove that he's really the heir of Rhaegar.

I'm really interested to see what happens with Dany next season. The group of Dothraki is led by Khal Drogo's top bloodrider who swore to kill her if he saw her again when she refused to join the Crones after Drogo's death. Of course, that was before she had burned Drogo's body and the dragons were hatched. I'm guessing he reconsiders when Drogon shows up and sets a good part of his khalasar on fire.

And I know I'm beating a dead horse by now, but I wouldn't read too much into what they change between the books and tv. I'd be shocked if GRRM and the producers haven't worked out some significant plot changes to force those of us already reading to continue to buy the books after GoT ends. We may know the ultimate end (Iron Throne Winner, Jon's parentage, the Stark family fate, Others/Walkers or Humanity triumphs, etc.), but how they get there will be pretty different. Look at some of the differences just within this episode: Arya being found out and punished for killing someone on her list instead of being blinded as part of the training process, Sam convincing Jon to send him to Maester school instead of the other way around, Myrcella being poisoned and on a ship to KL instead of being cut with a sword and staying in Dorne. Plus, simply for the sake of budget realities, it's necessary for GoT to combine plot points, characters, or eliminate some altogether. Personally, I think we'll wind up enjoying both for what they are.

Tbonewannabe
06-16-2015, 12:47 PM
So it just hit me but could Dany be Aziz Ahari? She came back out of the flames and could the "flaming sword" be the dragons?

War Machine Dawg
06-16-2015, 07:58 PM
So it just hit me but could Dany be Aziz Ahari? She came back out of the flames and could the "flaming sword" be the dragons?

I'm in the camp that thinks there are multiple AA/TPTWP characters. "Three heads of the Dragon" Jon, Dany, and one other we aren't sure of yet. I've seen lots of speculation in regards to Sam.

engie
06-16-2015, 10:35 PM
I'm in the camp that thinks there are multiple AA/TPTWP characters. "Three heads of dragon"
Agree with this.

In The World of Ice and Fire, there is talk of Five Forts, which is the Essos version of The Wall. That war is going to be fought on multiple fronts when time comes IMO...

Tbonewannabe
06-17-2015, 10:12 AM
I think the 3rd head is Tyrion. Some things point to Tyrion being the child of the Mad King raping Joanna Lanister. Tyrion has always been drawn to dragons and it would make more sense why Tywin always hated him.

engie
06-17-2015, 11:01 PM
5 main characters that survive until the end:
Jon, arya, bran, Dany, and tyrion.... Per original GRRM manuscript...
Fire - Dany
Ice - bran
Fire&ice - Jon
Tyrion and Arya could go either way....

Tbonewannabe
06-18-2015, 01:36 PM
Awesome. I didn't know that.

Tbonewannabe
06-18-2015, 01:43 PM
I would figure Tyrion for fire being part Targeryen and Arya ice being a Stark.

From Cersei fortune does Jamie or Tyrion kill her? If Marcella is dead only Tommen left to die. I am wondering if somehow her scheming and quest for power gets Tommen killed and Jamie turns on her.

Intramural All-American
06-18-2015, 06:14 PM
I rewatched HardHome last night, and I heard a line that could be a little foreshadowing. When talking to Ollie about Jon, Sam says "Don't worry about Jon. He'll come back. He always does."

Tbonewannabe
06-18-2015, 08:37 PM
Jon is coming back. Martin allowed them to make the show after they guessed who Jon's mom was. If Jon was actually dead his mother wouldn't matter.

engie
06-18-2015, 09:28 PM
That isn't in the manuscript...

alot has obviously been changed since then, but the original script had Jaime ending up on the throne...and cutting a bloody path to get there while framing tyrion for most of it...

Search it out -- it is extremely interesting to read...

BulldogBear
06-19-2015, 02:29 AM
I would figure Tyrion for fire being part Targeryen and Arya ice being a Stark.

From Cersei fortune does Jamie or Tyrion kill her? If Marcella is dead only Tommen left to die. I am wondering if somehow her scheming and quest for power gets Tommen killed and Jamie turns on her.
Doesn't say will KILL her. Says will bring about her downfall. I still maintain its the Hound defeating unGregor in trail by combat.

Tbonewannabe
06-19-2015, 08:24 AM
Damn I never thought about how the prophecy wouldn't be her brother. It would be funny that she has always hated Tyrion because of the prophecy she assumed he was responsible.