Fox announcers on best rf'er

[msstate7]

They keep saying puig and Heyward are neck and neck defensive rf'ers. This is ridiculous. Heyward's dWAR is 12.7. Puig's is -4.2. These guys are paid to cover baseball. Do your job!
(Stats from fangraphs.com)

Anyway this just rubbed me wrong

[Dawg61]

How can Puig possibly have a negative dWAR? He's a phenomenal defensive player and has an absolute cannon for an arm. Defense is his best tool imo. Heyward is good don't get me wrong but those numbers are just flat retarded wrong.

[msstate7]

I could've read fangraphs incorrectly. Espn has Heyward at 2.0 DWAR and puig at -0.5

[TheRef]

I could've read fangraphs incorrectly. Espn has Heyward at 2.0 DWAR and puig at -0.5

Remember...it WAS Joe Buck commentating that game sooooooooo

[KB21]

How can Puig possibly have a negative dWAR? He's a phenomenal defensive player and has an absolute cannon for an arm. Defense is his best tool imo. Heyward is good don't get me wrong but those numbers are just flat retarded wrong.

Because he take bad angles and doesn't get to as many plays as he should. Puig is also -1 in DRS. Jason Heyward is +21, which is tops in the league at all positions.

[Dawg61]

I could've read fangraphs incorrectly. Espn has Heyward at 2.0 DWAR and puig at -0.5

Forgive my ignorance but how are they figuring out this statistic? WAR is wins above replacement so this is just for defense only and if there's any RFs better than Puig on defense it sure as shit ain't enough of them to make him worse than the average RF which is what a negative is suggesting. Common sense says Puig is on the top shelf of RFs in the league. This is why I don't look at fangraphs and why Brian Kenny is the biggest douche in baseball followed closely by the Astros organization. Lol not knocking Heyward here man he's a great defensive player.

[msstate7]

Forgive my ignorance but how are they figuring out this statistic? WAR is wins above replacement so this is just for defense only and if there's any RFs better than Puig on defense it sure as shit ain't enough of them to make him worse than the average RF which is what a negative is suggesting. Common sense says Puig is on the top shelf of RFs in the league. This is why I don't look at fangraphs and why Brian Kenny is the biggest douche in baseball followed closely by the Astros organization. Lol not knocking Heyward here man he's a great defensive player.

KB21, Todd, will, or engie could answer this much better than me. I'm not sure myself. I do watch Heyward nightly and I haven't seen ANYONE play rf like him.

[Pioneer Dawg]

Fan graphs numbers aren't the actual war but the formula that goes into the war.

[Dawg61]

Heyward is the steadier fielder and with his height/length and speed he covers the most area. Puig is the highlight reel player and the gambler with the higher chance for the phenomenal play with an elite arm but a much higher chance for the retarded play too. Puig has the very unique ability to make you say "I can not believe he just did that" and for it to mean great or terrible multiple times in a game. Puig destroys Heyward on offense though so no GM is taking Heyward over Puig ever. I like Heyward I just wish he'd spend a year with Ken Griffey Jr. attached to his hip. Can you imagine Heyward with his size combined with KG Jr. swing? Not sure if true but I've heard multiple times that the Yankees plan on going after him hard this winter.

[msstate7]

Heyward is the steadier fielder and with his height/length and speed he covers the most area. Puig is the highlight reel player and the gambler with the higher chance for the phenomenal play with an elite arm but a much higher chance for the retarded play too. Puig has the very unique ability to make you say "I can not believe he just did that" and for it to mean great or terrible multiple times in a game. Puig destroys Heyward on offense though so no GM is taking Heyward over Puig ever. I like Heyward I just wish he'd spend a year with Ken Griffey Jr. attached to his hip. Can you imagine Heyward with his size combined with KG Jr. swing? Not sure if true but I've heard multiple times that the Yankees plan on going after him hard this winter.

Puig's unbelievable plays are most likely plays Heyward makes look easy. Kinda like comparing Jim edmunds to Andruw jones to me.

On offense... There is no doubt puig is much better. Heyward is only 24 (seems older) so I expect him to get better and better offensively.

[Dawg61]

Puig's unbelievable plays are most likely plays Heyward makes look easy. Kinda like comparing Jim edmunds to Andruw jones to me.

On offense... There is no doubt puig is much better. Heyward is only 24 (seems older) so I expect him to get better and better offensively.

Yea but Puig has to wear 3 cups his nuts are so big. He's tough and fearless and has one of the best throwing arms at any OF position in all of baseball. It's a freaking cannon. I'd say it's the best till the throw Cespedes had vs the Angels. You gotta know that guys don't even attempt taking the extra base vs Puig so the few balls Heyward may grab over Puig gets negated by the cannon Puig possesses. I would rather have Heyward while the ball is in the air but once it hits the glove or ground I'd rather have Puig. Whoever has either on defense isn't complaining. Both are gold glovers in my book.

[smootness]

Yea but Puig has to wear 3 cups his nuts are so big. He's tough and fearless and has one of the best throwing arms at any OF position in all of baseball. It's a freaking cannon. I'd say it's the best till the throw Cespedes had vs the Angels. You gotta know that guys don't even attempt taking the extra base vs Puig so the few balls Heyward may grab over Puig gets negated by the cannon Puig possesses. I would rather have Heyward while the ball is in the air but once it hits the glove or ground I'd rather have Puig. Whoever has either on defense isn't complaining. Both are gold glovers in my book.

These metrics take all of this into account.

Puig is not even close to a GG outfielder. Well, let me take that back. He may win a GG b/c GG's are often a joke and based solely on reputation, often offensive reputation. Puig does have great talent, but what you see is him making diving catches and throwing people out. What you don't see are the balls he didn't get to that most other outfielders did.

Defense is mostly about instincts, reads, and range. It is not much about making highlight-reels plays.

msstate7 is right, Jim Edmonds would often make a ridiculous catch and people assumed he was the best there was. What no one realized is that the same ball hit against the Braves, Andruw Jones was catching on his feet and making look easy.

Heyward is a better defensive RF than Puig and it isn't at all close. Comparing the two is an incredible insult to Heyward.

[Dawg61]

I watch a lot of Dodgers games and I don't remember very often saying to myself "Puig should of had that ball". You make it sound like he's Gattis or Soriano playing RF. Puig is a great RF and I stand by my statement that I'd rather have Heyward in the air and Puig once it hit's the ground or is caught. There's two parts to the play. The catch and the throw. Heyward is better at the catch but Puig is better with the throw so i disagree with your statement that "Heyward is a better defensive RF than Puig and it isn't at all close".

Show me this from Heyward


http://youtu.be/5FEsXGyTraI

[Pioneer Dawg]

Puig missing the cut allowing extra bases are taken into account

[smootness]

Again, all you're showing me is highlights.

Heyward has a fantastic arm and is tied for the NL lead in assists with 6 this year. He doesn't have quite the arm Puig does, but it's very, very good. The amount of plays Puig makes with his arm over Heyward is minimal. And there are times that Puig makes the wrong play trying to gun somebody out when the better play was to either throw it to a different base or throw it low so it could be cut off. Heyward does a better job of this.

95% of an OF's job is when the ball is in the air. So if you're taking Heyward in the air, you should take Heyward overall.

It really isn't a debate, Heyward is a far better defensive OF than Puig is. Again, Puig can make the spectacular play. But he also often makes the wrong play. Heyward saves the Braves far more runs than Puig saves the Dodgers overall.

[Dawg61]

Smoot how many Dodgers games have you watched since Puig arrived?

[smootness]

Several, not a whole lot. I know what the guy can do, his talent is special. But I also have seen enough of these defensive metrics to trust them, and all you're giving me are highlights. If you want to see Heyward, just go to youtube and search for Heyward 2012 highlights. You'll see plenty of highlights of his arm, and it's pretty comparable to Puig's...again, not quite as good but I'd venture to say they're probably 1 and 2 in the majors; Heyward is at least among the top few, and that's just arm.

DRS and other metrics aren't complete gospel. But over time, if one guy is off the charts and the other guy is average or worse, you can rest assured the first guy is definitely better.

[Dawg61]

Puig is flashy and cocky and people don't like that so they nitpick his game and rip him on the slightest wrinkle. Same thing happens to LeBron in basketball. Puig is by no means anywhere close to LeBron in his sport but they do share this together. Yasiel Puig is 18 months younger than Jason Heyward.