What is it about baseball?

[Will James]

That brings out the partisans like its politics? I'm having a discussion with some MSU writer for SB Nation on twitter tonight and he's acting like I'm going after Ross personally with my stats and theories. Like no other sport do you get this 'personal' attachment to the athletes like some people have. The old "Cohen does no wrong" crowd exemplifies this. Dude even went as far as to copy Ross' twitter handle into our conversation. This guy says that his W are all that should matter and me suggesting otherwise was being a bad fan, going after Ross etc etc. basketball and especially football players don't get this shield treatment, why is baseball any different.

[Todd4State]

Well, just being honest- when you put out a stat and say the stat suggests that a player is lucky, it looks like you are saying that the player really isn't that good. Which could be taken as an "attack" in some people's minds.

Maybe you aren't going for that, but that's what it might look like to some people.

And I don't really mind a MSU writer trying to protect a player to be honest, if they feel like it's warranted. Lucky or not, Ross has pitched well for us in some big games this year including the SEC Tournament Championship Game last year and the Governor's Cup this year, and he leads the team in wins. That alone is going to get you some fans if you are a baseball player. Heck, I wish the writers would protect our football players more- like Will Redmond this past season.

I hate to pull the old "our players read message boards/social media" speech but putting something like that out there really isn't that productive when we need our players to be their most confident and quite frankly, a stat like that probably could have waited until the season is over.

[Will James]

This is SEC baseball. Anything I put out there can only be used for a positive. I'm not saying they got a free car. Its statistics. It's emotionless. If a message board poster sayin "hey you have a high percentage of your at bats end with balls I play, maybe stop leading the team in HBP and work to get more K's" is getting in your head then.... But I guarantee you it's not getting in Ross' head and I guarantee you Butch has told him the exact same thing.

Thats my whole point why are baseball players seemingly "protected" from any criticism where we have had literally every MSU QB get booed coming off the field. They don't need it. Especially not bringing up a damn statistic. When you talk about season tickets, gas, concessions, actual time, baseball fans spend WAY more than football fans attending 40+ games compared to 7. This is major college athletics. If any player is bothered by any statistic in any sport they shouldn't be playing. If Ross sees my stats he will either A. Use them to make himself a better pitcher or B. say I'm gonna shut this ****er with the Cartman avatar the **** up an make himself a better pitcher.

The whole "luck" thing is over blown too. It's not like im saying it condescendingly "oh we'll you've just been lucky". He has literally been statistically very fortunate in where his ground balls have ended up. That's the only point regarding luck and anyone not seeing or understanding that meaning is a dope.

[The Croom Diaries]

I jumped in on this twitter argument last night because of how ridiculous you sounded Will. All Robbie did was bring up a statistic about how Ross is 4th in the league in wins behind 3 of the SEC's best pitchers (Nola, Beede and Ziomek) and you attack him about how "wins are an outdated stat". Excuse him for trying to promote MSU with factual information.

You need to recognize that not everyone buys into your sabermetric stuff. Telling everyone they need to shut up the only thing that matters is his SIERRA MIST stats or his FICA score means nothing because no one other than you knows what the hell you're talking about. We don't sit around analyzing obscure stats, and when you come at people trying to act like we are supposed to accept this as baseball truth because you are the expert, it is off-putting. And since you are so set in stone with your way of thinking, you concoct this idea that if anyone disagrees with you it must be because there is some attachment to baseball players where we won't criticize them.

The sabermetrics aren't as black and white as you portray them to be. There is a lot of gray area just like anything. Trying to suggest that Butch Thompson should tell Ross Mitchell to try and get more strikeouts is the dumbest thing I've heard on the subject. Tell a guy who tosses it up there at 83 mph to try and blow past guys? That's a recipe to get rocked. Ross has been doing an EXCELLENT job for 2 years as a relief pitcher. He is as effective as anyone on our staff...and that's all that matters. The bottom line is he eats up a bunch of innings where he's putting zeros on the board and he's been rewarded with a lot of wins for being able to do that. It doesn't matter if he is the best guy to come out of the pen to strike someone out to get out of a jam - he has a niche as a long middle reliever and he is VERY good at it.

The sabermetrics are a good way of determining value for a major league franchise, but I don't see the point of bringing it to college baseball. We don't need to know if those stats say Lindgren is better than Mitchell. We need to know who is getting outs and giving us the best chance to win. I'll take Todd's critique of the players over these obscure stats every day of the week.

Above all else, your WORST offense of the night in the twitter debate was copying Matt Stevens to back up your argument. Seriously, Stevens? If that's who you are calling in for backup then please, you need help.

[Will James]

Well that was an accident haha notice he was only in one tweet not all of them. Also I was adding info, not telling anyone to shut up or "let it go" like the other guy did. People can disagree but suggesting that I'm just "attacking" him is not debate it's protection.

He has done an excellent job. He gets a lot of ground balls. My only concern is that so many AB's end with balls in play, which in a clutch situation could be problematic.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

Sigh. I cant imagine what someone who spends 20 hours a day doing formulas/spreadheets/made up stats and twitter fights must be like.

[Will James]

Sigh. I cant imagine what someone who spends 20 hours a day doing formulas/spreadheets/made up stats and twitter fights must be like.

10 mins every Monday morning.

[justinrsutton]

I'm lost...since when did being a pitcher that forces ground ball outs become a bad thing?

For most pitchers, ABs end with a ball in play or a walk far more often than a strike 3.

Relief pitching is situational. I wouldn't bring him in when looking for a strike out, but why not keep him going in long relief?

[Will James]

I'm lost...since when did being a pitcher that forces ground ball outs become a bad thing?

For most pitchers, ABs end with a ball in play or a walk far more often than a strike 3.

Relief pitching is situational. I wouldn't bring him in when looking for a strike out, but why not keep him going in long relief?

I agree with this post. I don't think he's a bad pitcher. I just dispute the validity of Wins and ERA as a measuring stick.

[justinrsutton]

I agree that there are stats that can help see just how valid those two are or how likely a trend is to continue, but at some point you are what your record says you are, right?

[Will James]

I agree that there are stats that can help see just how valid those two are or how likely a trend is to continue, but at some point you are what your record says you are, right?

I disagree. Last year Clayton Kershaw was 27th in the MLB in wins. You can Win a game giving up 10
runs if your offense scores 11. You can throw 9 perfect innings and not win like Pedro if your offense doesn't score. Pitchers W-L is not a valid stat in my opinion, it measures nothing performance wise.

[Coach34]

. Its statistics. It's emotionless.
.

Apparently you never saw me throw out a statistic about Stands from 2006-2012 on Sixpack then

[Ronny]

That brings out the partisans like its politics? I'm having a discussion with some MSU writer for SB Nation on twitter tonight and he's acting like I'm going after Ross personally with my stats and theories. Like no other sport do you get this 'personal' attachment to the athletes like some people have. The old "Cohen does no wrong" crowd exemplifies this. Dude even went as far as to copy Ross' twitter handle into our conversation. This guy says that his W are all that should matter and me suggesting otherwise was being a bad fan, going after Ross etc etc. basketball and especially football players don't get this shield treatment, why is baseball any different.

What gets me is you think everybody sees baseballl through the prism of statistics like you do.

I've disheartening revelation: They don't.

Just like your aforementioned partisan politics comparison, it's 100% about gut feeling & emotion & 0% about facts & reality.

Which brings me to this: You are about to see the game of college baseball succumb to 100% gut feeling & emotion & 0% facts & reality.

It's going to take place when the regional sites are chosen. There will be no a Will James mathematics & statistics involved in the chosing of the regional sites.

Like the way everything else is decided in American culture, it will boil down to a Miss America popularity contest.

So when you see some really dumb-shit regional sites awarded, remember this post.

[maroonmania]

I'm lost...since when did being a pitcher that forces ground ball outs become a bad thing?

For most pitchers, ABs end with a ball in play or a walk far more often than a strike 3.

Relief pitching is situational. I wouldn't bring him in when looking for a strike out, but why not keep him going in long relief?

Guess its only a bad thing if it gets through the infield but obviously a double play gets you twice as many outs as a strike out. So a ground ball many times can be a lot better than a strikeout when men are on base.

[Will James]

Guess its only a bad thing if it gets through the infield but obviously a double play gets you twice as many outs as a strike out. So a ground ball many times can be a lot better than a strikeout when men are on base.

Ground balls are better than fly balls, especially as you move toward the Big Leagues. But a K is always optimal. With a man on 1st one out, a ground ball could turn two or go through for a hit. A K guarantees nobody advances and then you could still get the next guy to ground out.

[The Croom Diaries]

It doesn't matter what stat you want to use or if you don't want to use them at all - Ross Mitchell has been a MAJOR part of our success this year, and we wouldn't be where we are without him. He has saved our asses several times this year:

vs. St. Joe's: 3.0 scoreless, entered a 1-1 game, got us to the 8th inning where we took the lead.
vs. Kentucky: 4.2 scoreless, he inherited a 3-2 deficit and two men on in the 5th and finished the game, we won 8-4.
vs. Arkansas: inherited Bracewell's mess but went 6+ scoreless to give us a chance to win but our bats were dead
Governor's Cup: 6.0 scoreless, he inherited a 1-0 deficit getting and got us from the 2nd inning to the 8th inning for Holder, 5-1 win
vs. Auburn: 3.0 scoreless, we're up 4-3 Pollo is struggling, he inherits 2 men on gets out of it and we take a bigger lead in the 6th, win 6-3
vs. Memphis: 6.0 scoreless, goes from 2nd inning to 8th inning again, allows us to get a comfortable lead on them, win 12-1

None of this includes any of the 1-2 inning games were he didn't allow anyone to score.

Sure, Girado will be a key lefty coming out of the pen when we need an out in the postseason, maybe C.T. too. But I think Mitchell right there with Holder as far as importance to the pen. With the way our starting pitching has been the last month or so, we absolutely need him in long relief to stretch the game and get the ball in Bracewell or Holder's hands to finish a game off. It's was great to see that Bracewell is capable of going 4-5 innings because long relief is our most precious weapon right now with our starters at a 50/50 shot to even make the 5th inning.

[Will James]

Most of his SEC appearances have been less than 2 innings. Especially lately. We haven't been using his value, which is my whole point. He's not the guy to bring in with runners on base, he's the guy to start the next inning.

[Will James]

Apparently you never saw me throw out a statistic about Stands from 2006-2012 on Sixpack then

Exactly.

[Todd4State]

This is SEC baseball. Anything I put out there can only be used for a positive. I'm not saying they got a free car. Its statistics. It's emotionless. If a message board poster sayin "hey you have a high percentage of your at bats end with balls I play, maybe stop leading the team in HBP and work to get more K's" is getting in your head then.... But I guarantee you it's not getting in Ross' head and I guarantee you Butch has told him the exact same thing.

Thats my whole point why are baseball players seemingly "protected" from any criticism where we have had literally every MSU QB get booed coming off the field. They don't need it. Especially not bringing up a damn statistic. When you talk about season tickets, gas, concessions, actual time, baseball fans spend WAY more than football fans attending 40+ games compared to 7. This is major college athletics. If any player is bothered by any statistic in any sport they shouldn't be playing. If Ross sees my stats he will either A. Use them to make himself a better pitcher or B. say I'm gonna shut this ****er with the Cartman avatar the **** up an make himself a better pitcher.

The whole "luck" thing is over blown too. It's not like im saying it condescendingly "oh we'll you've just been lucky". He has literally been statistically very fortunate in where his ground balls have ended up. That's the only point regarding luck and anyone not seeing or understanding that meaning is a dope.

I didn't say he couldn't take it. I'm saying it's not productive. Ultimately when you look at the total picture of what Ross has done- he has been good. He has been successful. So, why say something that could be possibly even be misconstrued as negative?

It's not the stat so much as you saying that his success is more of a product of luck than anything else. By saying that you are insinuating that he really isn't any good. Whether you meant to or not.

It would be like me speaking at MSU's graduation and saying "statistically, three of you will go on to be in the porn industry." Statistically, it may be true, and my intention may be harmless, but a lot of people are going to take offense to me saying that.

I'm not sure why you would want a guy like Ross to strike out more people? His whole game is getting people to make contact and letting the defense to work behind him. You have to be who you are. I'm sure he would like to be David Price, but he's not. And if he tried to be, he would be a lot less successful. I think the reason he hits batters sometimes is simply because when we pitch him, he sometimes goes for a long time, and he gets tired. Not to mention he pitches more than a lot of the other pitchers.

Also, I'm not sure why you want to inspire one of our best pitchers to be even better? Is 9-0 with an ERA of around 1 not good enough?

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

Who wants an undefeated pitcher that leads the sec in era when you can pitch lindgren, our best pitcher that cant get through an inning without shitting the bed?

[Todd4State]

I disagree. Last year Clayton Kershaw was 27th in the MLB in wins. You can Win a game giving up 10
runs if your offense scores 11. You can throw 9 perfect innings and not win like Pedro if your offense doesn't score. Pitchers W-L is not a valid stat in my opinion, it measures nothing performance wise.

I think there is some validity to it though. It means you pitched well enough to win. In MLB, it also means that you pitched long enough to win or get a decision if you are a starting pitcher. Steve Carlton won 27 games in 1972 which was something like 30-40% of his entire teams wins that year. It is more of a team stat. It's not a catch all stat, and it doesn't tell everything, but neither does FIP.

But I honestly don't know anyone that totally judges a pitcher or any player on just one stat.

Actually, I think that's what WAR tries to do and is probably the best stat at telling you how valuable a player is, but good luck with that equation. I've seen one of the variations of WAR and I guarantee you it would take more than 10 minutes to plug in our teams numbers.

And I would imagine that Ross's WAR is probably pretty good when you compare him with the other pitchers in the SEC.

Just because something is a traditional statistic doesn't mean that there isn't any value in it.

[The Croom Diaries]

Also, I'm not sure why you want to inspire one of our best pitchers to be even better? Is 9-0 with an ERA of around 1 not good enough?

Ross did just shoot me a text that said, "I NEED TO WORK ON MY SIERA MIST STAT LINE, I'M AFRAID COHEN WON'T PITCH ME ANYMORE BECAUSE IT IS HIGHER THAN 1/2 THE SEC WHEN PITCHING ON A TUESDAY AFTER IT RAINED ON MONDAY".

[Todd4State]

Ross did just shoot me a text that said, "I NEED TO WORK ON MY SIERA MIST STAT LINE, I'M AFRAID COHEN WON'T PITCH ME ANYMORE BECAUSE IT IS HIGHER THAN 1/2 THE SEC WHEN PITCHING ON A TUESDAY AFTER IT RAINED ON MONDAY".

That sounds like Ross. LOL.

[FFF]

Any statistician will tell you stats are only a TOOL to help make decisions... MLB Managers use them for that very reason. Stats prove nothing because they can't. Questioning a baseball players success based on a "luck" stat is totally unproductive, especially when he's consistently keeping you in a positin to win games, no matter how he does it. Ultimately, Ross gets outs while minimizing runs. That's the goal of any pitcher taking the mound.

[Quaoarsking]

Part of the problem is that in general most people don't like math, but most people here do like baseball. To many fans, Sabermetrics turns something they like and turns it into something they don't.

I would say that accounts for half of the backlash here.

[FFF]

I like math and I like statistics... But there are far more variables in baseball than what stats tell you.

[maroonmania]

Ground balls are better than fly balls, especially as you move toward the Big Leagues. But a K is always optimal. With a man on 1st one out, a ground ball could turn two or go through for a hit. A K guarantees nobody advances and then you could still get the next guy to ground out.

Certainly a strike out is the only way to guarantee that you record an out given a ground ball can either go through for a hit or be errored. However strikeout guys don't normally eat up innings because if you do NOT pitch to contact your pitch count is going to rise much faster with more prolonged at bats. Therefore if you are primarily going to pitch guys with that approach then you are going to need more arms available on your staff.

[The Croom Diaries]

Part of the problem is that in general most people don't like math, but most people here do like baseball. To many fans, Sabermetrics turns something they like and turns it into something they don't.

I would say that accounts for half of the backlash here.

Sabermetrics are designed to find value in places that can't be seen through traditional stat lines, right? That works great for low-budget MLB teams but it is stupid for college baseball. I don't really care that Lindgren or Holder or anyone else has a lower percentage of balls put in play that wind up as base hits than Mitchell. He is a ground ball pitcher, not a strike out pitcher. Those stats are designed to find out if a professional pitcher who went 10-10 with a 3.85 ERA is really the equivalent to a 14-6 pitcher with a 2.90 ERA and just had some bad luck so the Toronto Blue Jays need to sign him for $5 million a year now before he actually does put up those stats next year and demands $10 million and the Yankees get him. It doesn't work in this scenario where we are trying to find out who gives us the best chance to win. Will keeps changing his mind from 'Ross needs to strike out more people' to 'I just think he doesn't need to come in with runners on' to 'I don't want him pitching in a crucial situation because he'll give up a hit'.

[Will James]

Sabermetrics are designed to find value in places that can't be seen through traditional stat lines, right? That works great for low-budget MLB teams but it is stupid for college baseball. I don't really care that Lindgren or Holder or anyone else has a lower percentage of balls put in play that wind up as base hits than Mitchell. He is a ground ball pitcher, not a strike out pitcher. Those stats are designed to find out if a professional pitcher who went 10-10 with a 3.85 ERA is really the equivalent to a 14-6 pitcher with a 2.90 ERA and just had some bad luck so the Toronto Blue Jays need to sign him for $5 million a year now before he actually does put up those stats next year and demands $10 million and the Yankees get him. It doesn't work in this scenario where we are trying to find out who gives us the best chance to win. Will keeps changing his mind from 'Ross needs to strike out more people' to 'I just think he doesn't need to come in with runners on' to 'I don't want him pitching in a crucial situation because he'll give up a hit'.

I think your definition and application are way off.

[Will James]

Certainly a strike out is the only way to guarantee that you record an out given a ground ball can either go through for a hit or be errored. However strikeout guys don't normally eat up innings because if you do NOT pitch to contact your pitch count is going to rise much faster with more prolonged at bats. Therefore if you are primarily going to pitch guys with that approach then you are going to need more arms available on your staff.

I would argue that 'contact' pitchers number of pitches per inning would even out because more balls get put in play, more people reach base, more at bats to pitch to.

Holder's pitches/inning in SEC play is 14.9.
Ross' pitches/inning in SEC play is 14.8

[The Croom Diaries]

I think your definition and application are way off.

Shocker.

[Will James]

I don't really care that Lindgren or Holder or anyone else has a lower percentage of balls put in play that wind up as base hits than Mitchell. He is a ground ball pitcher, not a strike out pitcher.

Lindgren's ground ball % is higher than Ross'.

Graveman 63.6%
Lindgren 63.0%
Mitchell 61.2%

Holder 52.3% for reference.

[The Croom Diaries]

Lindgren's ground ball % is higher than Ross'.

Graveman 63.6%
Lindgren 63.0%
Mitchell 61.2%

Holder 52.3% for reference.

Ok, so what that tells me is that hitters hit the ball harder against Lindgren and it gets through the infield than against Mitchell. Ross' effectiveness is that hitters don't make solid contact on him because he doesn't throw it as straight as Lindgren does. He is getting weak ground balls, Jacob is getting harder hit ground balls that fielders don't have as much time to get to before they are through to the outfield.

[FFF]

Ok, so what that tells me is that hitters hit the ball harder against Lindgren and it gets through the infield than against Mitchell. Ross' effectiveness is that hitters don't make solid contact on him because he doesn't throw it as straight as Lindgren does. He is getting weak ground balls, Jacob is getting harder hit ground balls that fielders don't have as much time to get to before they are through to the outfield.

B...b.... But... The stat doesn't say that!!! You are wrong.

[Will James]

Ok, so what that tells me is that hitters hit the ball harder against Lindgren and it gets through the infield than against Mitchell. Ross' effectiveness is that hitters don't make solid contact on him because he doesn't throw it as straight as Lindgren does. He is getting weak ground balls, Jacob is getting harder hit ground balls that fielders don't have as much time to get to before they are through to the outfield.

There could be something to that. It's called F/X and it is a new way of measuring batted ball speed, trajectory, etc. Hopefully someday this can be used from HS on up. That's years down the road though.

But if you are correct then Ross should give up fewer hits than Lindgren. When we look at the SEC numbers, Lindgren is giving up 1.09 hits/inning. Mitchell is at 1.14 hits/inning.

In SEC play Ross and Jacob are essentially giving up hits and walking batters at the exact same rate.

[Will James]

3-16 LSU - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, no outs. Immediate double. 2 runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-22 UK - Ross comes in man on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Immediate single, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-23 UK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-31 ARK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-5 UF - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

4-7 UF - Ross comes in man on 1st and 3rd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-14 A&M - Ross comes in bases loaded. Two ground balls score two runs. Two more ground ball errors on Frazier accompanied by two singles score two more runs. This is what I mean by wanting strikeouts in these situations. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-18 AU - Ross comes in men on 1st and 2nd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-28 Vandy - Ross comes in 1st and 3rd, 2 outs. Two immediate singles, two runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-6 ALA - Ross starts the 6th inning and goes 1-2-3.

5-7 ALA - Ross comes in bases loaded. Gets out of the inning Good work Ross.

5-10 OM - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Immediate Balk, Walk, Walk. Run scores, doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-11 OM - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

So that's 13 runs in SEC play that have been scored while Ross is on the mound but not attributed to him. He has come in 12 times with people on base and has gotten out of it unscathed just 4 times. This is what I mean when I say we have been using him wrong. If our starter is struggling early and a situation like this comes up we need a strikeout guy to stop the opposition. When the next inning starts THEN it's time to put Ross on the mound. This has only been done once, the 5-6 Alabama game and was successful. This is why his Earned Run Average is so low, with his SIERA and FIP so high. And this is why ERA is a terrible, no good, very bad measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers.

[FFF]

3-16 LSU - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, no outs. Immediate double. 2 runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-22 UK - Ross comes in man on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Immediate single, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-23 UK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-31 ARK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-5 UF - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

4-7 UF - Ross comes in man on 1st and 3rd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-14 A&M - Ross comes in bases loaded. Two ground balls score two runs. Two more ground ball errors on Frazier accompanied by two singles score two more runs. This is what I mean by wanting strikeouts in these situations. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-18 AU - Ross comes in men on 1st and 2nd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-28 Vandy - Ross comes in 1st and 3rd, 2 outs. Two immediate singles, two runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-6 ALA - Ross starts the 6th inning and goes 1-2-3.

5-7 ALA - Ross comes in bases loaded. Only gives up one run. Given the situation, good work Ross but Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-10 OM - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Immediate Balk, Walk, Walk. Run scores, doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-11 OM - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

So that's 13 runs in SEC play that have been scored while Ross is on the mound but not attributed to him. He has come in 12 times with people on base and has gotten out of it unscathed just 4 times. This is what I mean when I say we have been using him wrong. If our starter is struggling early and a situation like this comes up we need a strikeout guy to stop the opposition. When the next inning starts THEN it's time to put Ross on the mound. This has only been done once, the 5-6 Alabama game and was successful. This is why his Earned Run Average is so low, with his SIERA and FIP so high. And this is why ERA is a terrible, no good, very bad measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers.

So... Who would you put in there? Serious question... Leave a struggling starter in? Put a freshman in? Girodo, maybe, but Ross has proven to be far more reliable. Bracewell or Holder? You'd like to save them for the end of a game. Another starter?

Point is, there are very few pitchers in the country who can come out of a situation with multiple runners on, less than two outs and consistently come out unscathed.

[Will James]

See I dont believe in the save your best pitchers for the end. I would probably lean towards Bracewell to shut down a men on base situation early on the game. Give him some IP give Ross some and close it out with Girodo and holder. If its the middle of a game I'm shutting it down with Girodo, then go with Ross/Ben the next inning and Holder to finish. If its the 7th inning or on I'm going straight to Holder to stop the rally and finish the game.

In the postseason I'm going straight to Holder to shut down any inning.

[The Croom Diaries]

3-16 LSU - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, no outs. Immediate double. 2 runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-22 UK - Ross comes in man on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Immediate single, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-23 UK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-31 ARK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-5 UF - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

4-7 UF - Ross comes in man on 1st and 3rd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-14 A&M - Ross comes in bases loaded. Two ground balls score two runs. Two more ground ball errors on Frazier accompanied by two singles score two more runs. This is what I mean by wanting strikeouts in these situations. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-18 AU - Ross comes in men on 1st and 2nd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-28 Vandy - Ross comes in 1st and 3rd, 2 outs. Two immediate singles, two runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-6 ALA - Ross starts the 6th inning and goes 1-2-3.

5-7 ALA - Ross comes in bases loaded. Only gives up one run. Given the situation, good work Ross but Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-10 OM - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Immediate Balk, Walk, Walk. Run scores, doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-11 OM - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

So that's 13 runs in SEC play that have been scored while Ross is on the mound but not attributed to him. He has come in 12 times with people on base and has gotten out of it unscathed just 4 times. This is what I mean when I say we have been using him wrong. If our starter is struggling early and a situation like this comes up we need a strikeout guy to stop the opposition. When the next inning starts THEN it's time to put Ross on the mound. This has only been done once, the 5-6 Alabama game and was successful. This is why his Earned Run Average is so low, with his SIERA and FIP so high. And this is why ERA is a terrible, no good, very bad measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers.

I am 100% sure Ross Mitchell came into the Alabama game with bases loaded and 0 out and got out of the jam without anyone scoring. Since you didn't get that one right, I'm not sure I can believe any of these other games.

[Will James]

I am 100% sure Ross Mitchell came into the Alabama game with bases loaded and 0 out and got out of the jam without anyone scoring. Since you didn't get that one right, I'm not sure I can believe any of these other games.

I ****ed that one up. Just looked again, on his walk I thought the bases were loaded. MY MISTAKE. But the other's are valid. 5 of 12 not 4 of 12.

[FFF]

I am 100% sure Ross Mitchell came into the Alabama game with bases loaded and 0 out and got out of the jam without anyone scoring. Since you didn't get that one right, I'm not sure I can believe any of these other games.

Im also pretty sure sunday arky is wrong too. He came in after ben walked in two, bases loaded, no out, first batter hits into a DP (which obviously scores a run)... Not a walk. No other runs score.

[Will James]

Im also pretty sure sunday arky is wrong too. He came in after ben walked in two, bases loaded, no out, first batter hits into a DP (which obviously scores a run)... Not a walk. No other runs score.

No, the first batter Ross faced walked in a run.

Arkansas 1st - Mahan, J. singled to center field (3-2). Mahan, J. stole second. Serrano, J. walked (3-1). Spoon, T. doubled down the lf line, RBI (3-2); Serrano, J. advanced to third; Mahan, J. scored. Anderson, B. walked (3-1). Mitchell, R. to p for Bracewell. Vinson, M. walked, RBI (3-1); Anderson, B. advanced to second; Spoon, T. advanced to third; Serrano, J. scored. Ficociello,D grounded into double play ss to 2b to 1b (1-2); Vinson, M. out on the play; Anderson, B. advanced to third; Spoon, T. scored. Schwanke, W. struck out looking (2-2). 3 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors, 1 LOB.

[Will James]

3-16 LSU - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, no outs. Immediate double. 2 runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-22 UK - Ross comes in man on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Immediate single, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-23 UK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-31 ARK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-5 UF - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

4-7 UF - Ross comes in man on 1st and 3rd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-14 A&M - Ross comes in bases loaded. Two ground balls score two runs. Two more ground ball errors on Frazier accompanied by two singles score two more runs. This is what I mean by wanting strikeouts in these situations. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-18 AU - Ross comes in men on 1st and 2nd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-28 Vandy - Ross comes in 1st and 3rd, 2 outs. Two immediate singles, two runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-6 ALA - Ross starts the 6th inning and goes 1-2-3.

5-7 ALA - Ross comes in bases loaded. Gets out of the inning Good work Ross.

5-10 OM - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Immediate Balk, Walk, Walk. Run scores, doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-11 OM - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

So that's 13 runs in SEC play that have been scored while Ross is on the mound but not attributed to him. He has come in 12 times with people on base and has gotten out of it unscathed just 4 times. This is what I mean when I say we have been using him wrong. If our starter is struggling early and a situation like this comes up we need a strikeout guy to stop the opposition. When the next inning starts THEN it's time to put Ross on the mound. This has only been done once, the 5-6 Alabama game and was successful. This is why his Earned Run Average is so low, with his SIERA and FIP so high. And this is why ERA is a terrible, no good, very bad measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers. 2nd page bump.

[Todd4State]

3-16 LSU - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, no outs. Immediate double. 2 runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-22 UK - Ross comes in man on 1st and 2nd, 1 out. Immediate single, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-23 UK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA

3-31 ARK - Ross comes in bases loaded. Immediate walk, run scores. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-5 UF - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

4-7 UF - Ross comes in man on 1st and 3rd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-14 A&M - Ross comes in bases loaded. Two ground balls score two runs. Two more ground ball errors on Frazier accompanied by two singles score two more runs. This is what I mean by wanting strikeouts in these situations. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

4-18 AU - Ross comes in men on 1st and 2nd. They don't score. Good work Ross.

4-28 Vandy - Ross comes in 1st and 3rd, 2 outs. Two immediate singles, two runs score. Doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-6 ALA - Ross starts the 6th inning and goes 1-2-3.

5-7 ALA - Ross comes in bases loaded. Gets out of the inning Good work Ross.

5-10 OM - Ross comes in 1st and 2nd, 2 outs. Immediate Balk, Walk, Walk. Run scores, doesn't hurt the ERA.

5-11 OM - Ross comes in man on 2nd. He doesn't score. Good work Ross.

So that's 13 runs in SEC play that have been scored while Ross is on the mound but not attributed to him. He has come in 12 times with people on base and has gotten out of it unscathed just 4 times. This is what I mean when I say we have been using him wrong. If our starter is struggling early and a situation like this comes up we need a strikeout guy to stop the opposition. When the next inning starts THEN it's time to put Ross on the mound. This has only been done once, the 5-6 Alabama game and was successful. This is why his Earned Run Average is so low, with his SIERA and FIP so high. And this is why ERA is a terrible, no good, very bad measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers. 2nd page bump.

Umm....you do know that they have a stat called inherited runners allowed to score right?

[Todd4State]

I would argue that 'contact' pitchers number of pitches per inning would even out because more balls get put in play, more people reach base, more at bats to pitch to.

Holder's pitches/inning in SEC play is 14.9.
Ross' pitches/inning in SEC play is 14.8

Depends on how well they locate their pitches. Holder locates his pitches really, really, well. So, he's usually throwing around 12-15 pitches per inning a lot of the time. He's an outlier. We're talking about the best closer I have ever seen at MSU.

Ross has had over 30 at bats more in SEC play compared to Holder.

[Will James]

Depends on how well they locate their pitches. Holder locates his pitches really, really, well. So, he's usually throwing around 12-15 pitches per inning a lot of the time. He's an outlier. We're talking about the best closer I have ever seen at MSU.

Ross has had over 30 at bats more in SEC play compared to Holder.

Lindgren, who has struggled, is only at 16 pitches per inning in league play. Point is I don't think pitch count is that big of a deal across the "types" of pitchers on our team.

[Todd4State]

See I dont believe in the save your best pitchers for the end. I would probably lean towards Bracewell to shut down a men on base situation early on the game. Give him some IP give Ross some and close it out with Girodo and holder. If its the middle of a game I'm shutting it down with Girodo, then go with Ross/Ben the next inning and Holder to finish. If its the 7th inning or on I'm going straight to Holder to stop the rally and finish the game.

In the postseason I'm going straight to Holder to shut down any inning.

You say you don't believe in the save your best pitchers for the end- yet you still use Holder to close in pretty much every situation? That seems contradictory.

The thing about relief pitchers is more than any other position, they are creatures of comfort. Some guys can close, some simply can not. See Mitchell Boggs of the Cardinals- GREAT set-up guy. Could not close out a game when given the job when Motte went down.

Other guys thrive in other situations- set-up, middle relief, lefty/lefty, etc.

A coach has to figure out what works best for each individual pitcher from a comfort standpoint. I guarantee you that Cohen and Butch use Ross in situations where there is a jam because he has shown that he can minimize damage more often than not. Also, they know that once he gets into a groove, he can pitch for a long time. When you have a guy that inherits a lot of runners they are going to let runners score from time to time.

Tony LaRussa figured this out a LONG time ago, and that's why teams use bullpens the way that they do now. And also because it works. That sabermetric saying is pretty ridiculous to me- because that's how managers USED to do it, and it didn't work as well. Plus, their stats are based off of pitchers pitching in situations that they are comfortable in. But hey, it's just numbers.

[Will James]

You say you don't believe in the save your best pitchers for the end- yet you still use Holder to close in pretty much every situation? That seems contradictory.

A little. I just don't think the highest leverage situation will occur in the 2nd or 3rd. Give us a chance to score runs in innings 2,3,4,5 etc.

[Quaoarsking]

I thought it was a good call to bring Holder in in the 2nd against Ole Miss. We needed to put out the fire right away.

I think the MLB concept of a "closer" who comes in in save situations only and is paid millions is absurd. If you're up 3 in the 9th, put in one of your weaker pitchers -- anyone capable of making an MLB roster will probably win in that scenario.

[Will James]

I thought it was a good call to bring Holder in in the 2nd against Ole Miss. We needed to put out the fire right away.

I think the MLB concept of a "closer" who comes in in save situations only and is paid millions is absurd. If you're up 3 in the 9th, put in one of your weaker pitchers -- anyone capable of making an MLB roster will probably win in that scenario.

Agreed on both counts. It was a Sunday and he was good to go for a long time.

[Todd4State]

I thought it was a good call to bring Holder in in the 2nd against Ole Miss. We needed to put out the fire right away.

I think the MLB concept of a "closer" who comes in in save situations only and is paid millions is absurd. If you're up 3 in the 9th, put in one of your weaker pitchers -- anyone capable of making an MLB roster will probably win in that scenario.

Except in MLB there are 162 games, and like I said- not everyone can close out games. It's not so much the three run leads that you need them for anyway- it's the one, two run games. I didn't ask MLB how to define what a save is. As a Cardinals fan, when Ryan Franklin was blowing 9th inning leads every night it sucked. Royally.

In college, we're playing 56 games + whatever in the postseason. So, I don't mind a guy like Holder going 2-3 innings to close out a game.

I thought bringing in Holder that soon was not a good call. He was out of his element and it showed in the second inning that he pitched. We are very lucky that Ben had the game of his life. Essentially, we got one good inning and then because he got in trouble, walking a couple of people, it led to another three runs which put us down by six. Had we lost, I guarantee you that people would be questioning that call.

[Todd4State]

A little. I just don't think the highest leverage situation will occur in the 2nd or 3rd. Give us a chance to score runs in innings 2,3,4,5 etc.

That's the other thing- there's no way to know when the highest leverage situation will occur without a crystal ball.