This is the kind of stuff that makes me afraid Ray will never get it done at MSU...

[maroonmania]

while Pearl will bring Auburn up from the ashes. You've got no chance in basketball if you can't get high end players to sign on with your program. I assume we are not looking good for Newman?

http://www.secrant.com/news/105535/50425709/No-2-National-Scorer-Antoine-Mason-Transfers-To-Auburn?sect=home_main

[jimbo352]

JMO.... The sooner we admit the Rick Ray experiment was a failure, the faster we can get back to being a top tier SEC BB program.

[CadaverDawg]

JMO.... The sooner we admit the Rick Ray experiment was a failure, the faster we can get back to being a top tier SEC BB program.

I agree completely. I share your Opinion.

But I'm sure our opinions will somehow be proven wrong.

[HancockCountyDog]

All I know is that winning 10 SEC games just got a lot harder for Ray. AU on the road will be extremely tough.

Im hoping that we see some real progress next year.

[smootness]

There are a lot of assumptions being made here. His other option was Providence.

[Dawg61]

Holy shit, Auburn won't need a year before they beat the crap out of us in basketball, it'll be this year. Go ahead and spend $100 million on a new ballpark though guys that'll only extend us getting a good coach at $2 mill a year for idk like 6 years.

[Dawg61]

All I know is that winning 10 SEC games just got a lot harder for Ray. AU on the road will be extremely tough.

Im hoping that we see some real progress next year.

Hope you like the NIT cause that's all 10 wins will get us and there ain't no way in hell we'll get 10 wins anyways. We can't even fill a roster going into year 3.

[quickstrike2]

Baseball postseason must be over, back to the why Stans sucks and why Ray hadnt been gave a chance and then visa versa.

Should be great conversation******

[smootness]

How do you bookmark a thread?

[CadaverDawg]

How do you bookmark a thread?

No clue

[codeDawg]

At some point you have to take a step back and recognize that he didn't get a fair shake, he isn't going to get one, and the best thing for everybody is to move on. You can't let somebody sit around and flounder because it's your fault they are in a shitty position. Move on to somebody everybody can go with and get on with life.

[jimbo352]

I agree completely. I share your Opinion.

But I'm sure our opinions will somehow be proven wrong.

lol... I have no data to argue, just a feeling that Ray was doomed from the start. I said from the very beginning it would be the coach after Ray that brought us back. Just the nature of the beast.

[smootness]

At some point you have to take a step back and recognize that he didn't get a fair shake, he isn't going to get one, and the best thing for everybody is to move on. You can't let somebody sit around and flounder because it's your fault they are in a shitty position. Move on to somebody everybody can go with and get on with life.

I know this is a discussion we've had a million times already, but it's still too early to do this. He didn't get a fair shake in the sense that he started in a terrible spot; it was never going to get fixed in 2 years. Just because he hasn't gotten it fixed in 2 years doesn't mean he won't. I think he deserves at least this year. If we're still in the same spot after this year, then make a change. But if we have reason to believe, based on this coming year, that he is moving us in the right direction, then he deserves more time again.

[Dawg61]

MSU can't just sit back and watch Pearl and everyone else do laps around Ray in recruiting. There is no sense of urgency with Ray. None. Why is Pearl already landing #1 scorers in the nation that are immediately eligible to play this upcoming year? Why have we not gotten one single transfer in basketball in a world filled with survivors feeding off of transfers. We are starving for help and yet refuse to add help. Why? Because we have suddenly become above it? We are better than stooping to the depths of accepting transfers that will help immediately? Boy that's awfully high and mighty of the glorious prestigious Mississippi State basketball program. Last in the standings but first in class. "Doing it the right way" by Croom Ray.

[smootness]

MSU can't just sit back and watch Pearl and everyone else do laps around Ray in recruiting. There is no sense of urgency with Ray. None. Why is Pearl already landing #1 scorers in the nation that are immediately eligible to play this upcoming year? Why have we not gotten one single transfer in basketball in a world filled with survivors feeding off of transfers. We are starving for help and yet refuse to add help. Why? Because we have suddenly become above it? We are better than stooping to the depths of accepting transfers that will help immediately? Boy that's awfully high and mighty of the glorious prestigious Mississippi State basketball program. Last in the standings but first in class. "Doing it the right way" by Croom Ray.

First of all, you know why Pearl is able to land players. Second, I have no idea the circumstances surrounding this guy, but neither does anyone else. As I said, his other option was Providence.

You continue to use 'no sense of urgency', but your definition of 'urgency' is what someone else would define as 'cutting corners that will hurt you in the long run'. As always, we still have to let it play out to see which strategy is better.

[preachermatt83]

we are gonna stick with ray for 2 more years with no progress and then no one is gonna wanna coach here.

[codeDawg]

I know this is a discussion we've had a million times already, but it's still too early to do this. He didn't get a fair shake in the sense that he started in a terrible spot; it was never going to get fixed in 2 years. Just because he hasn't gotten it fixed in 2 years doesn't mean he won't. I think he deserves at least this year. If we're still in the same spot after this year, then make a change. But if we have reason to believe, based on this coming year, that he is moving us in the right direction, then he deserves more time again.

I don't disagree with you on this year, but if there is not significant progress in recruiting and on the court, we need to move on to someone the program supporters will get behind. He's always going to be playing from behind. Nobody in any program can do it without outside help. That's not his fault, but it is our problem. Let's get somebody in here that can get everybody paddling in the same direction.

[engie]

lol... I have no data to argue, just a feeling that Ray was doomed from the start. I said from the very beginning it would be the coach after Ray that brought us back. Just the nature of the beast.

Worry not -- It's just Cadaver attempting to bring an argument from one thread that he went personal attack mode in multiple times before locking into practically every other thread on the front page I've checked thusfar...

[msstate7]

If ray gets us in the nit this year, I'll be happy with him. I think we can do it too if ready can stay healthy and Fred builds on the end of last season. If ready stats hurt again and Fred goes back to the early season form, ray is probably doomed

[engie]

I don't disagree with you on this year, but if there is not significant progress in recruiting and on the court, we need to move on to someone the program supporters will get behind. He's always going to be playing from behind. Nobody in any program can do it without outside help. That's not his fault, but it is our problem. Let's get somebody in here that can get everybody paddling in the same direction.

Year 3 is go time. Now is time for him to either prove it or get out. His grace period is over with everybody, and it's time to see serious progress.

[Dawg61]

How is adding immediate transfers "cutting corners" when EVERYONE else is doing it but us? To "cut corners" means to be gaining an advantage by taking the faster more dangerous route but it's not "cutting corners" if the entire rest of the pack is doing it. We might be the only Power6 school in the nation to not have added a transfer in the last 3 years. This old-school way of thinking of building up a program is never going to work with how basketball is today. It's also a cop-out for Ray's inability to recruit for jack. He can't recruit vs major college coaches. He loses every battle.

[smootness]

What kind of one-year transfer do you believe we would have attracted given the state of our team the last couple of years?

[C222]

How is adding immediate transfers "cutting corners" when EVERYONE else is doing it but us? To "cut corners" means to be gaining an advantage by taking the faster more dangerous route but it's not "cutting corners" if the entire rest of the pack is doing it. We might be the only Power6 school in the nation to not have added a transfer in the last 3 years. This old-school way of thinking of building up a program is never going to work with how basketball is today. It's also a cop-out for Ray's inability to recruit for jack. He can't recruit vs major college coaches. He loses every battle.

Isaiah Williams, PG transferring from Samford is visiting this weekend. 12pts, 1.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists per game. Not bad #'s but it was at Samford.

[msstate7]

Isaiah Williams, PG transferring from Samford is visiting this weekend. 12pts, 1.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists per game. Not bad #'s but it was at Samford.

Immediate or have to sit?

[Dog316]

we are gonna stick with ray for 2 more years with no progress and then no one is gonna wanna coach here.

-----------

Surely not! Our problem was never lack of talent. Our problem was the coach, or so I read here. So it is simple. Just get a new coach. It has always been about the coach. Everyone who coaches here shoul be able to get us to the sweet sixteen nearly every year.

[Raytoraid83]

And stansbury has already gotten a top transfer to chose A&M over ucla. Is it too much to ask Ray to find one transfer? He tried with the Wake Forrest pg and lost him to vandy.

[C222]

And stansbury has already gotten a top transfer to chose A&M over ucla. Is it too much to ask Ray to find one transfer? He tried with the Wake Forrest pg and lost him to vandy.

Also lost T.J. Lang to Auburn. Not a transfer but a decommit from Va Tech that was between us and Auburn.

[Dawg61]

Isaiah Williams, PG transferring from Samford is visiting this weekend. 12pts, 1.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists per game. Not bad #'s but it was at Samford.

If he's an immediate transfer eligible right away then Ray will be at 13 and I'll shut my mouth for awhile

[C222]

Immediate or have to sit?

He'll have to sit a year I believe. He is also visiting Butler.

[Dawg61]

Isaiah Williams, PG transferring from Samford is visiting this weekend. 12pts, 1.8 rebounds, 3.5 assists per game. Not bad #'s but it was at Samford.

6'1, 160lbs will be a soph, 46 for 118 .390 on 3s. Good shooter and looks to be an upgrade over Davis. He's small though, another small guard but at least this one can shoot and has experience.

[KB21]

MSU can't just sit back and watch Pearl and everyone else do laps around Ray in recruiting. There is no sense of urgency with Ray. None. Why is Pearl already landing #1 scorers in the nation that are immediately eligible to play this upcoming year? Why have we not gotten one single transfer in basketball in a world filled with survivors feeding off of transfers. We are starving for help and yet refuse to add help. Why? Because we have suddenly become above it? We are better than stooping to the depths of accepting transfers that will help immediately? Boy that's awfully high and mighty of the glorious prestigious Mississippi State basketball program. Last in the standings but first in class. "Doing it the right way" by Croom Ray.

You know, if you are mad that Rick Ray doesn't cheat, then just say it.

[smootness]

If he's an immediate transfer eligible right away then Ray will be at 13 and I'll shut my mouth for awhile

We would be at 13 whether he's able to play immediately or not.

[CadaverDawg]

Also lost T.J. Lang to Auburn. Not a transfer but a decommit from Va Tech that was between us and Auburn.

Hell yes, C222. Dropping knowledge, I love it. And good info. Any others you know of?

[tcdog70]

6'1, 160lbs will be a soph, 46 for 118 .390 on 3s. Good shooter and looks to be an upgrade over Davis. He's small though, another small guard but at least this one can shoot and has experience.

please no more smurf point guards. Unless they are world-class. A 12 point smurf from Samford-Just Say No. I want 6'3" point guards or bigger. Defense is crucial, We already have dwarfs for PGs that everyone just shoots over.

[Dawg61]

We would be at 13 whether he's able to play immediately or not.

Hmmm yes we would but only have 12 available to play assuming we stay as is. Interesting

[Irondawg]

Yep, Auburn didn't do any real favors to Ray in hiring Pearl b/c it's a standard for us to judge. Ray basically wins this year or I think he's gone.

[Dawg61]

You know, if you are mad that Rick Ray doesn't cheat, then just say it.

Not mad he doesn't cheat. More like mad because he gets his ass kicked in recruiting and refuses to bring in immediate. Full ride to an SEC school to play basketball sells itself. You don't have to cheat to get 100 players foaming at the mouth for that opportunity. I don't want to hear excuses anymore. Tennessee signed 8 players in one month, Auburn just signed the leading scorer in the nation, Ole Miss has brought in eight new players. What have we done for me to get excited about? What? How are we any better this next year than this last year? Because we have 4 more guys on our bench? Because we got to see a 2 minute clip of baby Giraffe in the gym? Yay

[smootness]

Hmmm yes we would but only have 12 available to play assuming we stay as is. Interesting

...which is the situation for just about every program in the country. Almost everyone is redshirting someone or has a transfer sitting out a year. Your standard is insane.

[smootness]

What have we done for me to get excited about? What? How are we any better this next year than this last year? Because we have 4 more guys on our bench? Because we got to see a 2 minute clip of baby Giraffe in the gym? Yay

Why don't we just wait until the season starts. Ray's job isn't to make you excited or to make everyone think we're going to be way better. It's to actually get better and win games.

I'm personally excited about the fact that we return essentially everybody, so everyone should be improved. And I'm excited about Daniels and Ndoye, and I'm excited to see what Ray runs when he has a full roster of athletic guys to work with.

You are not excited by that, that's fine. But neither my excitement nor your lack of it means anything for this year. The fact that you don't see a reason to get excited doesn't mean we'll be just as bad as last year, and my excitement and hope doesn't mean we'll be way better.

But continuing to use the exact same arguments when there has been no change (and no one should have expected big changes, we've always known what Ray's plan was) in anything since last season.

[Dawg61]

...which is the situation for just about every program in the country. Almost everyone is redshirting someone or has a transfer sitting out a year. Your standard is insane.

If he was some stud that would be an immediate starter an impact transfer like Moultrie or Roberts I would count it but he's just a bench filler that's eating a scholi for a year so no I won't count it. He's still short one. How's that for insane

[smootness]

How's that for insane

Yep, still insane.

You keep moving the goalposts. First it's, 'Just fill the roster, I don't care who it is'. Then it's, 'I don't care if the roster is full, the players aren't good enough'. Then it's, 'Look at Tennessee, they were able to add a bunch of players!' Then when someone points out that we have no idea how good those 8 players are, you respond with, 'It doesn't matter how good they are, we can't even fill the roster!' Then we get a transfer to fill the roster, and it's back to a quality argument...

[Goat from MSU]

I love these threads it is Dawg61 vs smoot and engie .By the way by not getting the Wake Forest transfer or Lang what chance does Ray have with Newman. When he loses Newman the moving truck will be pulling up to his backdoor.
Hell yes, C222. Dropping knowledge, I love it. And good info. Any others you know of?

[KB21]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

[Charlie_Sheen420]

This horse has been beaten beyond death, it's a bloody pulp now. Wait one more year, and then we will all know where the basketball program stands and be able to judge it and Ray. For now just keep calm about it all, and grow out your wool for football season.

[Dawg61]

He's filling the last spot with an undersized bench player that won't play this year so nope I'm not gonna count that bullshit. Replace the 13th spot with someone that will actually help us THIS YEAR. Doesn't matter cause he won't get him anyways.

[smootness]

He's filling the last spot with an undersized bench player that won't play this year so nope I'm not gonna count that bullshit. Replace the 13th spot with someone that will actually help us THIS YEAR. Doesn't matter cause he won't get him anyways.

Like I said, constantly moving the goalposts. I don't know why I keep getting sucked into this.

[DudyDawg]

I understand that this is a slower process for us than it would be for a Duke or someone, but we need to at least start competing. Meaning no more losing by 30, losing to TCU at home, stuff like that. I don't think it should be anything like winning the NIT or getting to the NCAA or fire him, but we need to be competitive or we won't be able to recruit, win in the future, etc

[Dawg61]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

Um no Ray wasn't left with a program that had a player GET MURDERED. Comparing Drew and Ray is ridiculous. Drew had to deal with major punishments dealt out by the NCAA including half a season not being allowed to play any games. Oh yea and one of the players got MURDERED. In these circles that Ray coaches around Payne include how to beat a 1-3-1 zone? Payne could go eat hotdogs with Calipari while his Nike All-Stars rip new assholes into Ray's x's and o's masters of basketball fundamentals.

[KB21]

Um no Ray wasn't left with a program that had a player GET MURDERED. Comparing Drew and Ray is ridiculous. Drew had to deal with major punishments dealt out by the NCAA including half a season not being allowed to play any games. Oh yea and one of the players got MURDERED. In these circles that Ray coaches around Payne include how to beat a 1-3-1 zone? Payne could go eat hotdogs with Calipari while his Nike All-Stars rip new assholes into Ray's x's and o's masters of basketball fundamentals.

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

[smootness]

Anyone who wanted Kenny Payne should be automatically banned from the discussion.

[Brad Stevens]

Late to this awesome party ** - serious question: Didn't Auburn have 2 of the top 3 or 4 scorers in the SEC this year and still finish near the bottom? Can we all agree that scoring 25 ppg for Niagara is different than for some other actually recognizable NCAA team? My point is this: why is this no-name transfer causing y'all to return to this vomit of an argument? I am open to correction and may be wrong, but typically in college basketball, more even distribution of scoring leads to higher chances of winning (see UK and UF in the SEC). This guy may go for 30 against us (hopefully not), but that doesn't mean we automatically lose. Again, let's wait and see what happens in a few months. And let's at least use this offseason to enjoy our football hype and not tear each other up over the same recycled basketball thread.

[DudyDawg]

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

Ever heard the phrases not cheating if you don't get caught and ain't cheating ya ain't trying?

I'm not saying we should cheat, but we should be better than we are

[HoopsDawg]

Ever heard the phrases not cheating if you don't get caught and ain't cheating ya ain't trying?

I'm not saying we should cheat, but we should be better than we are

It's not a foul if the Ref doesn't blow the whistle. Ray is raiding Samford for a guys scoring 11 a game? Sounds about right.

Hey, we should be loaded this year. Haven't you guys seen the practice videos we have been releasing?

[Homedawg]

We would be at 13 whether he's able to play immediately or not.

I pray we sign a guy at Sanderson to get to 13 just to get him to shut up about the 13 full roster. Who cares if we are at 13 if number 13 can't play dead? Being full in itself doesn't mean crap. But it makes dawg61 happy.

[Homedawg]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

How can you say that? Kenny Payne has done a great job head coaching at ........**********

[Dawg61]

So you support cheating to win. Just admit it, like I said earlier. This is obviously why you have mentioned a known cheater in Bruce Pearl in this thread and also support the way Kentucky puts those Nike All Star teams together. Personally, I don't support cheating.

I haven't once said we should be cheating. You said that. Twice. You really think Donnie Tyndall just showed up and started cheating his ass off to sign 8 new players in a month? I don't think so. Ray's direct competition is Calipari, Pearl, Donovan, Kennedy, Martin etc.. and those coaches are having no issues signing immediate impact transfers. We haven't signed one. It's about to be year three. Not one. Tyndall signed 3 transfers in less than 30 days. MSU has signed 0 in 850 days. Zero.

[preachermatt83]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

comparing the state of the MSU program when Ray got here to the Baylor when Drew got there may be the most insane thing I have seen posted on this message board.

[MarketingBully01]

comparing the state of the MSU program when Ray got here to the Baylor when Drew got there may be the most insane thing I have seen posted on this message board.

Agreed x1000. Oh well, it will play out one way or the other and someone is going to have a mountain of egg on their face. I am leaning towards Ray doesn't work out but that is just me.

[PassInterference]

JMO.... The sooner we admit the Rick Ray experiment was a failure, the faster we can get back to being a top tier SEC BB program.

Depends on whether or not he gets the crootin machine together.

[ScottH]

we are gonna stick with ray for 2 more years with no progress and then no one is gonna wanna coach here.

Kenny Payne will apparently still be available.

[tcdog70]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.


What have you seen that makes Ray a good x and O guy. Name something he has done that makes you go WOW that guy can Coach. I haven't seen it. A 1-3-1 blew his mind. He didn't have a clue. I will take talent over Xs and Os anyday.

[tcdog70]

It's not a foul if the Ref doesn't blow the whistle. Ray is raiding Samford for a guys scoring 11 a game? Sounds about right.

Hey, we should be loaded this year. Haven't you guys seen the practice videos we have been releasing?


The problem with the videos is it is against our players. I've seen several average players look great against us. Who hasn't looked good.

[Political Hack]

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

[smootness]

The problem with the videos is it is against our players. I've seen several average players look great against us. Who hasn't looked good.

You bring a lot to the table. Good job!

[dawgs]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

Last time I checked we didn't have players murdering each other, pending major ncaa sanctions hanging over our head, AND have the program damn near death penalty'd for a season when they were prevented from playing non-conf games and only allowed to play conference games to prevent hurting the rest of the conference.

Yep, basically the same thing.

[CadaverDawg]

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130927193338/mlp/images/7/73/This.gif

[dawgs]

I disagree. Winning takes care of everything. Everyone, including me, would gladly shut up about the lack of production and the incessant problems if he starts winning. He did inherit a mess, but it doesn't take long to fix a basketball team and he's taking a long time just to "not suck."

Bingo. I'd much rather be good at basketball again than be right on the Internet.

[CadaverDawg]

Bingo. I'd much rather be good at basketball again than be right on the Internet.

Wow, that is just beautifully put. Well said

[dawgs]

Yeah I just get annoyed and tired of the pro-ray crowd that keeps saying those of us voicing our concerns/doubts/lack of faith would rather see ray fail than succeed. No we would rather win than anything, it's just we don't see any reasons to be overly optimistic about ray getting it done, and we vocalize what we see happening. That's not the same thing as hoping he fails.

[engie]

Yeah I just get annoyed and tired of the pro-ray crowd that keeps saying those of us voicing our concerns/doubts/lack of faith would rather see ray fail than succeed. No we would rather win than anything, it's just we don't see any reasons to be overly optimistic about ray getting it done, and we vocalize what we see happening. That's not the same thing as hoping he fails.

There's a difference between the crowd you fall into -- and the ones that actually ARE actively hoping Ray fails. And, yes, there are a number of posters and State fans that fall into that category.

There is no "pro-Ray" crowd that I'm aware of. There's simply a crowd that says he hasn't gotten a fair shake yet and shouldn't be judged on results until this upcoming season -- and then there's those that are jumping to conclusions based on what's happening in the pits of the rebuild. That -- and having a faction of the fanbase actively sabotaging your efforts to rebuild over loyalty to the previous coach -- is what that makes it similar to the baseball transition. That's not to say it will work out as well -- just a cautionary tale about what you can take from the early parts of a rebuild -- especially one with the situational issues we had.

[Homedawg]

There's a difference between the crowd you fall into -- and the ones that actually ARE actively hoping Ray fails. And, yes, there are a number of posters and State fans that fall into that category.

There is no "pro-Ray" crowd that I'm aware of. There's simply a crowd that says he hasn't gotten a fair shake yet and shouldn't be judged on results until this upcoming season -- and then there's those that are jumping to conclusions based on what's happening in the pits of the rebuild. That -- and having a faction of the fanbase actively sabotaging your efforts to rebuild over loyalty to the previous coach -- is what that makes it similar to the baseball transition. That's not to say it will work out as well -- just a cautionary tale about what you can take from the early parts of a rebuild -- especially one with the situational issues we had.

Well said

[Dawg61]

You ever watch a bad movie and make comments about why it is bad and how it could be better during the movie? What about making comments during an ass-whoopin in a football or baseball game? Well consider the Ray experiment a very long bad movie or game-thread that has lasted going on 3 years now.

[dawgs]

At some point he has to win over those boosters or win in spite of them. Sucks for him, but I just want to win and of he can't get them on board or do it without them, then time to move along. Of course Cohen also had a successful track record as a HC and was one of the hottest coaches in the country when we hired him, whereas ray did not, therefore Cohen was given a lot more benefit of the doubt. (I know you and others don't agree with that reasoning, but I think it's clear as day...if one guy has done it before, you trust him through the rebuilding stages more than the guy that's never done it before and doesn't have the track record to suggest he's got it in him)

And do other programs have this kinda shit go on? Seems like naming a few names publicly around the message boards of those that are causing the problems could at least stop the active sabotaging.

[Political Hack]

At some point he has to win over those boosters or win in spite of them. Sucks for him, but I just want to win and of he can't get them on board or do it without them, then time to move along. Of course Cohen also had a successful track record as a HC and was one of the hottest coaches in the country when we hired him, whereas ray did not, therefore Cohen was given a lot more benefit of the doubt. (I know you and others don't agree with that reasoning, but I think it's clear as day...if one guy has done it before, you trust him through the rebuilding stages more than the guy that's never done it before and doesn't have the track record to suggest he's got it in him)

And do other programs have this kinda shit go on? Seems like naming a few names publicly around the message boards of those that are causing the problems could at least stop the active sabotaging.

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

[engie]

So, with Cohen having all of that stuff on his resume, should it not, then, actually afford Ray MORE patience?

We've seen the difficulties faced by one of probably the top 10-15 coaches in the country at a traditional top 20 baseball program during a rebuild with a HIGH percentage of the support structure sabotaging him behind the scenes IN SPITE OF his accolades. THAT good of coach had THAT much trouble getting the ball rolling at MSU...and we are STILL not quite at the level I expect to be/hold under him

By proxy, we are supposed to expect Ray to be better -- get it done faster -- facing the same(and in many ways worse) difficulties -- at a program that is, at best, a top 50 program traditionally?

I get that "he doesn't have the resume"... and that was an issue upon his hiring. But he's here now -- and he deserves a fair shake before it's time to discuss getting rid of him. To me, that's this year. He either gets the ball rolling significantly -- or I'm ready to go another direction as well. By ball rolling significantly, I mean making a postseason tournament of some description...

[Dawg61]

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

So would he pull a Counzo Martin? Idk that is his good buddy though so maybe but one thing is for damn sure he won't have a Jordan McRae and Jarnell Stokes to get him into the Sweet16.

[engie]

if he does win, does he leave to get closer to home? That's a question that hasn't really been brought up but if we sit around for five years for a winning season to see him bolt after 1 or 2 good seasons, it'll set us back another half decade. That was never an issue with Cohen and that's why it was the right decision to give him time.

Why would him leaving us with a successful program "set us back a half decade"? It'd tee us up to make a significantly higher profile hire, with alot more money to throw at it, and a much more attractive situation than the one we hired Ray into.

Let's face it -- at this point, the SEC only has 2 consistent destination jobs.

[Political Hack]

basketball players transfer at a pretty high rate when their coaches leave. It shouldn't take a half decade, but it would be a year adjustment period before a new coach could field his team. So, essentially, we'd have 1-2 good years in about 10+ due to coaching transitions.

[dawgs]

So, with Cohen having all of that stuff on his resume, should it not, then, actually afford Ray MORE patience?

We've seen the difficulties faced by one of probably the top 10-15 coaches in the country at a traditional top 20 baseball program during a rebuild with a HIGH percentage of the support structure sabotaging him behind the scenes IN SPITE OF his accolades. THAT good of coach had THAT much trouble getting the ball rolling at MSU...and we are STILL not quite at the level I expect to be/hold under him

By proxy, we are supposed to expect Ray to be better -- get it done faster -- facing the same(and in many ways worse) difficulties -- at a program that is, at best, a top 50 program traditionally?

I get that "he doesn't have the resume"... and that was an issue upon his hiring. But he's here now -- and he deserves a fair shake before it's time to discuss getting rid of him. To me, that's this year. He either gets the ball rolling significantly -- or I'm ready to go another direction as well. By ball rolling significantly, I mean making a postseason tournament of some description...

More patience for a guy that may not have and has not given any indication of having the ability to build a program is foolish.

More patience for a guy that you know has the ability to build a program actually makes sense.

If someone has shown genius they can do it again. If someone hasn't shown genius, they just might not be a genius, and waiting for the to show it is pointless.

Your logic of given an unproven coach more time to develop makes no sense to me. Of course part of that still goes back to the point that we shouldn't be hiring a guy that has no HC resume and/or isn't a highly regarded assistant for a hall of game type HC. We shouldn't be hiring a guy that's this much of a question mark and needs years to learn to be a HC at any collegiate level, not just a major conference level.

[engie]

More patience for a guy that may not have and has not given any indication of having the ability to build a program is foolish.
How so? Being ready to fire someone in year 2 of something that was always going to take 3 years before judgement time is unfair. It's not giving him "more" patience -- it's giving him a fair shake period.


More patience for a guy that you know has the ability to build a program actually makes sense.
There are plenty of guys that have proven they have the ability to build a program that failed miserably at their next stop. There is no perfect formula on that.


If someone has shown genius they can do it again. If someone hasn't shown genius, they just might not be a genius, and waiting for the to show it is pointless.
Or they might actually be a genius that inherited bad circumstances on the front end? I'm not saying he is -- I'm saying it's still too early to make a call on this either way. John Cohen sure looked like an idiot that was in over his head at this point in 2010. I'm just saying.


Your logic of given an unproven coach more time to develop makes no sense to me. Of course part of that still goes back to the point that we shouldn't be hiring a guy that has no HC resume and/or isn't a highly regarded assistant for a hall of game type HC. We shouldn't be hiring a guy that's this much of a question mark and needs years to learn to be a HC at any collegiate level, not just a major conference level.
And alot of what you just said is the negative Rick Ray propaganda originating from "those with an agenda". Research his actual history and you'll find a pretty highly regarded assistant coach that showed beyond traditional levels of success at every stop he made -- and was considered the best recruiter on staff at Clemson and committed the multi-year ACC dPOY...

Now, we hired in a perfect storm of negative circumstances the first time. There's no denying that. He's not "who we wanted". That's been beat to death.

But my issue is this -- what are you actually advocating? Because if it's anything other than pulling the plug right now, what is the point? The real answer will come in 6 months -- and THEN we can make a logical decision on a path that needs to be taken.

[dawgs]

You are really spinning that rick ray resume. There's literally dozens of assistants with better resumes.

[engie]

You are really spinning that rick ray resume. There's literally dozens of assistants with better resumes.

Yeah -- one of the main candidates everyone wanted already lost to Ray last year.

And let's go ahead and assume that any assistant in the country was gonna jump at the chance to take over our dumpster fire -- where they weren't going to be supported regardless...

How many times do I have to ask you to define your position before you actually do it?

[dawgs]

Also I never advocated cutting bait right now. I have said that there are really no indications of things getting better. And I understand the segment of fans that are ready to cut bait for the reasons I listed and some of the reasons they've listed. It's just the way I view the situation. Once ray proves to be an expert in identifying undervalued talent and developing said talent into high caliber sec basketball players, I'll buy in, but until then, to get pissed at folks for either questioning him or already fed up with him is being is just being at the other end of the spectrum.

[dawgs]

Yeah -- one of the main candidates everyone wanted already lost to Ray last year.

And let's go ahead and assume that any assistant in the country was gonna jump at the chance to take over our dumpster fire -- where they weren't going to be supported regardless...

How many times do I have to ask you to define your position before you actually do it?

I would rather have a proven d2 HC than an assistant that bounced around mediocre programs and recruiting mediocre talent.

I just absolutely refuse we are apparently the biggest dumpster fire in the history of MBB that couldn't even pry away a proven HC by doubling or tripling his salary. Think about how many major conference programs have hired HCs in the last couple of years and find the others that pulled a hire this far out of their ass.

Even Baylor pulled a guy with HC experience in the middle of their MURDER ordeal and pending major ncaa violations that nearly death penalty'd them.

But yeah, we are the worst dumpster fire and that explains everything.

[maroonmania]

Gosh, didn't mean to stir up a major summer debate on Rick Ray. I actually think Ray is a good floor coach and seems to be a sharp dude. But right now I just don't see him recruiting at a near high enough level for us to get back to an NCAA tournament. I mean the best players we have in Ware, Sword and Thomas are Stansbury recruits. Part of the problem though is also our administration if they are tying Ray's hands and insisting we do things the right way. Basketball recruiting, especially in the South, is just a very unsavory business and if we aren't willing to play the games others are then I guess we will just have to all accept a mediocre or less basketball program. People always talked around the fact that Stans was doing shady things in recruiting to get some of the players he did but all I know is we never had any NCAA problems in the entire 14 years he ran our program. If he would have been willing to surround himself with better assistant coaches that knew Xs and Os and could gel a team on and off the court rather than a staff of just recruiters he would still be our head coach.

[Coach34]

Ray was about the 7th guy we offered the job to. It is what it is. People kept turning us down, and it wasnt because Stands could win 20 games at State

[TrueMaroon]

Ray was about the 7th guy we offered the job to. It is what it is. People kept turning us down, and it wasnt because Stands could win 20 games at State


After reading this, it doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies thinking about Scott Stricklin leading another big 3 HC search.

[HailState39110]

That's what pisses me off about the hire and Stricklin running a search. Jay Jacobs told the media he wasn't going to let Pearl give him no for an answer. I wish our AD was more cut throat and not so passive on situations like this

[Dawg61]

That's what pisses me off about the hire and Stricklin running a search. Jay Jacobs told the media he wasn't going to let Pearl give him no for an answer. I wish our AD was more cut throat and not so passive on situations like this

Joe Dean Jr. would make an excellent AD for MSU

Bio http://www.scacsports.com/information/directory/bios/dean_joe

[Coach34]

That's what pisses me off about the hire and Stricklin running a search. Jay Jacobs told the media he wasn't going to let Pearl give him no for an answer. I wish our AD was more cut throat and not so passive on situations like this

I dont think anyone was pleased with the way the search was done. Anyone

[thf24]

After reading this, it doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies thinking about Scott Stricklin leading another big 3 HC search.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Stricklin would have made a better hire two years ago if the state of the program didn't have both hands and a foot tied behind his back.

[Goat from MSU]

But who else beside Ray that you heard of that would have taken the job ,I can not blame Ray for taking the money . I have a feeling there is something missing from Ray and this upcoming season will make or break him.
I dont think anyone was pleased with the way the search was done. Anyone

[Dawg61]

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Stricklin would have made a better hire two years ago if the state of the program didn't have both hands and a foot tied behind his back.

Stricklin didn't have to make the hire rushed like. He missed on a few and then panicked and rushed the decision. Why? Just be cool bro and we'd be fine. Waiting an extra month to make the right hire would of saved us a damn 5 year mess.

[Dawg61]

Please stop acting like MSU is East Mississippi Community College. There's 500 candidates across USA that would take a million dollar SEC men's head basketball coaching job. Ray was perfect in Stricklin's eyes for what he wanted accomplished and winning wasn't on the top 5 things in his mind he wanted done. Till he finishes the football stadium and new ballpark we are not getting a new basketball coach.

[Goat from MSU]

Please stop acting like MSU is East Mississippi Community College. There's 500 candidates across USA that would take a million dollar SEC men's head basketball coaching job. Ray was perfect in Stricklin's eyes for what he wanted accomplished and winning wasn't on the top 5 things in his mind he wanted done. Till he finishes the football stadium and new ballpark we are not getting a new basketball coach.
If we have to wait on that ,then we have a problem now. Turd No.1 will be laid when Newman passes on us .Turd 2 thru 10 will be next season.If we give him a season 4 well .....we would be bordering on getting the dumbass gold medal.

[maroonmania]

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Stricklin would have made a better hire two years ago if the state of the program didn't have both hands and a foot tied behind his back.

I think that the "state of our program" excuse on the hire has been WAY overplayed. I know our program had some issues behind the scenes but nothing a few rules being laid down and short term house cleaning couldn't quickly correct. And no, we might not could have gotten the high end mid-major coaches because those guys, if they've proven themselves, are looking to move into high end D1 jobs but that doesn't mean we couldn't have gotten a high quality candidate. I actually think the restrictions our AD and administration wanted to put on the new coach coming in on how the program would be run probably scared off a lot more candidates than the dreaded "state of the program". I'm sure a LOT of coaches didn't want to take the job if you are going to handcuff them in trying to be successful in getting the players needed. I probably would have passed too.

[smootness]

The Rick Ray hire was lauded by a whole lot of people in basketball. But to fans, the fact that no one had heard of him means he's not a good coach, which then means we made a terrible hire, which then means Stricklin must not have cared about winning, which then means Stricklin is a horrible AD and has to go.

In reality, if we have some success this year, then perhaps you were all entirely wrong about every single bit of that.

[Dawg61]

Or you just need to see the house completely burned to the ground before you'll say there's a fire.

[drunkernhelldawg]

I think that the "state of our program" excuse on the hire has been WAY overplayed. I know our program had some issues behind the scenes but nothing a few rules being laid down and short term house cleaning couldn't quickly correct. And no, we might not could have gotten the high end mid-major coaches because those guys, if they've proven themselves, are looking to move into high end D1 jobs but that doesn't mean we couldn't have gotten a high quality candidate. I actually think the restrictions our AD and administration wanted to put on the new coach coming in on how the program would be run probably scared off a lot more candidates than the dreaded "state of the program". I'm sure a LOT of coaches didn't want to take the job if you are going to handcuff them in trying to be successful in getting the players needed. I probably would have passed too.

Nobody worth a damn will take a "head" anything job if he can't actually call the shots. Don't ever do it unless you want to spend your sleepless nights in the fetal position.

[smootness]

Or you just need to see the house completely burned to the ground before you'll say there's a fire.

There was already a fire burning when Ray was hired. His approach seems to be to let it burn all the way to the ground so you can build it up the way you want it. Some wanted him to put it out and try to repair what was left of the house.

We'll see if he was right, but it's definitely too early still to make a judgement on that.

[MadDawg]

There was already a fire burning when Ray was hired. His approach seems to be to let it burn all the way to the ground so you can build it up the way you want it. Some wanted him to put it out and try to repair what was left of the house.

We'll see if he was right, but it's definitely too early still to make a judgement on that.

Around these parts, we call that the Croom Method.

[engie]

Around these parts, we call that the Croom Method.

Around these, we call it the Cohen Method.

[MadDawg]

Around these, we call it the Cohen Method.

I hope you are right that Ray is just another Cohen in waiting. We shall see.

[engie]

I hope you are right that Ray is just another Cohen in waiting. We shall see.

I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying that we don't know yet. This year will tell the story either way and the fanbase should be more united either way by the time it's over...

[Dawg61]

Croom NSFW

http://pfitpfun.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/muffintop1.jpg


Ray

http://i1.cdnds.net/13/11/618x1168/snooki-swimsuit.jpg


Cohen

http://37.media.tumblr.com/0861f102434c8b81a63345dd8afffd82/tumblr_mif7nomroK1rc9m5ao1_400.jpg




Stop comparing Ray to Cohen

[TheRef]

61.....you need to put a NSFW warning on that. I about vomited all over my whole setup...

[Dawg61]

61.....you need to put a NSFW warning on that. I about vomited all over my whole setup...

Lol my bad

[Goat Holder]

The fact of the matter is this. The dumpster fire that Rick Ray inherited was as bad as the dumpster fire that Scott Drew inherited at Baylor. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season at Baylor until his 5th year. This program was such a dumpster fire that the likes of Bryce Drew and the Murray State coach wanted no part of it.

The hate on Rick Ray has very little to do with the product on the floor and has everything to do with who he isn't. He isn't Kenny Payne and doesn't have Kenny's connection with the handlers of the AAU racket. He can coach circles around Kenny Payne from an x's and o's standpoint though.

Since when do you have the right to chastise anyone over their disdain for a coach......weren't you the guy that supported Ron Polk until the bitter end, no matter the harm he was trying to do to the university and John Cohen? All because of his ego?

[Goat Holder]

Please stop acting like MSU is East Mississippi Community College. There's 500 candidates across USA that would take a million dollar SEC men's head basketball coaching job. Ray was perfect in Stricklin's eyes for what he wanted accomplished and winning wasn't on the top 5 things in his mind he wanted done. Till he finishes the football stadium and new ballpark we are not getting a new basketball coach.

Thread over....

[Coach34]

Ray has his year coming to show us something. No more excuses- he's had his 2 years to rebuild. Now it's time to get better

[dawgs]

I'm not saying he is. I'm just saying that we don't know yet. This year will tell the story either way and the fanbase should be more united either way by the time it's over...

Relatively speaking, Cohen was light years ahead of ray in the crootin' game even when he was rebuilding the program.

[tcdog70]

Around these parts, we call that the Croom Method.


And Smoot loved the Slytantic. Rick Ray is losing at every aspect of being a Head Coach.

[engie]

Relatively speaking, Cohen was light years ahead of ray in the crootin' game even when he was rebuilding the program.

And so was Polk -- according to 'crootin rankings that were consistently TOTALLY full of shit back in those days, much like basketball rankings are today beyond the top 100 or so obviously elite players in the country...

Recruiting rankings are a total joke in basketball. Too much margin for error with those few players. There are a BUNCH of coaches in basketball that are dominating on the court without ever having a top 50 recruiting class.

[smootness]

And Smoot loved the Slytantic. Rick Ray is losing at every aspect of being a Head Coach.

And I also loved Cohen. I loved Stans for a long time, too. My problem is that I'm biased in favor of our head coach, sometimes for too long. I freely admit that. But I do not believe this is too long. I said when Ray was hired that we couldn't judge him for 2 years. Now we can. If we have the same product on the court this year, me and everyone else who is considered a 'Ray lover' will agree with making a change. Period.

[maroonmania]

I hope you are right that Ray is just another Cohen in waiting. We shall see.

I very, very much doubt that because Cohen is a recruiting machine. Ray on the other hand?