Question that needs to be asked about our pitching.....

[Goat Holder]

Look, I realize you can't bitch too much because pitching has been our strength overall. But I look back at this:

2009: Everybody sucks, but Ricky Bowen showed glimpses before he went pro as a Jr. after being drafted as a So.
2010: Everybody sucks, all pitchers are new recruits, Devin Jones is hyped but doesn't do anything
2011: Devin Jones hyped to be our ace, does some good things, but ultimately never pans out, goes pro as a Jr.
2012: Chris Stratton dominates and goes pro as a Jr.
2013: Evan Mitchell shows glimpes in previous year, hyped as the best athlete on team, never pans out, goes pro as a Jr. Daryl Norris is also drafted as a pitcher as a Jr., although we basically got nothing out of him as a pitcher
2014: Brandon Woodruff shows glimpses in 2012 SECT, hyped as electric, becomes Friday guy, never pans out, likely goes pro as a Jr.

The lack of development of our MLB capable guys is stunning. An improved Woodruff and we probably host this year. An improved Evan Mitchell may help us win a natty last year and/or get further in 2012. An improved Stratton might help us reach Omaha in 2011.

Obviously Graveman and other like Girodo did well, so it all cancels out. But what are we doing wrong with our highly talented, hard throwing starters? is Dakota Hudson going to go this route too?

[The Croom Diaries]

I think it's the mental make-up of the players, and I'm not sure we're helping to improve their mental game as a coaching staff. I'm just speculating though.

[Goat Holder]

It's valid. Look at Lindgren - the guy can't handle starting a contest. Real Deal is called a "creature of habit". Are we coddling these guys, or the opposite? Does Butch have 'his' system which is all he can coach?

[The Croom Diaries]

I don't know where the coaches got the habit thing on Ross. He was a reliever for 2 years, and a damn good one.

[smootness]

Eh, it's a good question, but in reality we did develop Stratton into an ace, so that's one.

To me the only one who sticks out that was a stud that didn't develop is Woodruff, and that could be tied to injury. Jones and Mitchell both had talent but they also both had serious flaws when they showed up; neither one was a big-time recruit or can't-miss guy out of HS. They both showed glimpses, but their flaws were too much to overcome.

I don't consider Lindgren to be a guy we didn't develop. He's going to be a 1st or 2nd round pick; some guys are just better suited to be RPs.

[Lefthandersrule]

It's valid. Look at Lindgren - the guy can't handle starting a contest. Real Deal is called a "creature of habit". Are we coddling these guys, or the opposite? Does Butch have 'his' system which is all he can coach?

It's funny you say that about him not being able to handle starting. Lindgren's numbers his Freshman and Sophomore seasons were better than Stratton's yet Butch moves him to the bullpen. I believe that our system can take an average pitcher and get the most out of him but cannot take above average pitchers and make them better.

[smootness]

It's funny you say that about him not being able to handle starting. Lindgren's numbers his Freshman and Sophomore seasons were better than Stratton's yet Butch moves him to the bullpen. I believe that our system can take an average pitcher and get the most out of him but cannot take above average pitchers and make them better.

I don't know why anyone thinks this was a bad move, though. He shined as a RP, so much so that he could be in the majors by the end of this year. If MLB teams thought he was a SP, they would draft him as such; but he's going to be drafted as a RP.

[Goat Holder]

True on the can't miss talents, but remember it was Cohen who hyped these guys up, not me, Gene Swindoll or Kendall Rogers. He continuously pumped up Jones and Mitchell, and sort of did it to Lindgren/Woodruff too. I'm starting to simply realize that Cohen does that to try and instill confidence into the headcases. And you say he was just a RP? No way, I dropped that line last year when all our fans were towing it. That's nonsense. Man up when your team needs you. You know who did that for us? Fitts and Laster. That's why I think we'll have a damn good rotation next spring with those guys as the anchors. That's 2 Kendall Grave(men) for you right there.

[Homedawg]

It's funny you say that about him not being able to handle starting. Lindgren's numbers his Freshman and Sophomore seasons were better than Stratton's yet Butch moves him to the bullpen. I believe that our system can take an average pitcher and get the most out of him but cannot take above average pitchers and make them better.

Lindgren was above avg and he made him better. The rest, all were projects out of high school with the exception of woodruff, which at this point has clearly under achieved

[Raytoraid83]

Are y'all seriously debating whether Butch is a good pitching coach or not?

[smootness]

It's not about 'manning up'. Some guys are just better out of the pen. Same thing happens in the majors all the time. Then you gave guys like Alex Wood who is much better as a SP than as a reliever. Does he just need to 'man up' when asked to pitch out of the bullpen?

Lindgren's stuff is more effective when he doesn't enter the game trying to go 8 innings.

[Goat Holder]

I believe that our system can take an average pitcher and get the most out of him but cannot take above average pitchers and make them better.

At the very least, it's a disturbing trend. These guys are good once they get to campus, why not just leave them alone and let them throw? I'm not siding with Ricky Bowen or his dad, but that was their beef after 2009. He said Butch tried to alter his motion or something. Why not let it ride with a guy if he's having success?

[Goat Holder]

Not so much in college, IMO. Either way, I saw the practices and games. Lindgren freaks out at the first sign of trouble when he starts. When he starts and does well, he dominates, similar to what he does out of the pen. That's a headcase.

We needed a shut down starter this year, and didn't have one. He would have been more effective for us there.

[Goat Holder]

I'm asking questions. We've got a 6 year sample size now.

[yjnkdawg]

I don't know where the coaches got the habit thing on Ross. He was a reliever for 2 years, and a damn good one.

I agree. He had been excellent coming out of the pen. I think he excels coming out of the pen because batters have been looking at around 90 mph fastballs prior to him entering the game. It seems like good hitting teams can adjust pretty quickly when he is a starter, and especially if he is not getting the low strike calls. I hope the coaching staff is able to have him back in as a middle relief pitcher come next year.

[Todd4State]

Bowen sucked other than the near perfect game he had against Ole Miss. I doubt Butch would have recruited him.

Devin Jones was from Eupora and didn't really get a lot of high level coaching until he came to MSU. He was always a project. Us being forced to use him more than we should have ideally probably stunted his development somewhat. Ironically, he came up big against LSU in 2011 which knocked LSU out of the regionals and started our SR run in 2011. He has a shot to make it to MLB as a middle relief guy. Was named one of the Orioles top 20 prospects last year.

Chris Stratton did pretty well for a freshman starter on a losing team, struggled in 2011 and lost his confidence, went to the Cape and then came back strong. I think he also ends up as a middle relief guy in MLB.

Evan Mitchell was a goofball with a really live arm. He also hardly pitched in high school because of injuries. Norris played third base most of his career.

Woodruff had a really good freshman year, had an arm injury and is just now coming back.

Lindgren was recruited with the thought of him being a starter- and he was until he got knocked around. He moves to the bullpen and then become a first-second round draft pick.

[Todd4State]

It's not about 'manning up'. Some guys are just better out of the pen. Same thing happens in the majors all the time. Then you gave guys like Alex Wood who is much better as a SP than as a reliever. Does he just need to 'man up' when asked to pitch out of the bullpen?

Lindgren's stuff is more effective when he doesn't enter the game trying to go 8 innings.

To me, starting pitcher and relief pitcher are two totally different positions. They all get lumped in as "pitchers".

I think a lot of it is personality. Some guys do better on a routine, set schedule. Those types of guys are probably going to be good starters. Some guys like knowing that they could play that day and like the adrenaline rush of trying to get out of a jam or closing the game. Lindgren and Holder are like that.

The thing that people need to understand is just about all of these guys are starting pitchers in high school and it's totally different in HS vs. the SEC or MLB because if you throw 92 and have a nasty breaking ball, you can dominate and throw just about whatever whenever. But that's not really pitching from a technical standpoint as much as it is throwing. That's where most of our recruits are coming from. And because of that, it's hard to know exactly what they are going to be in college or MLB. All you can do is look at their skill set and then maybe have a good idea of what a player will be in 2-3 years, but sometimes it works out like Lindgren. He wasn't a very good starter aside from a couple of games, but he was a really good relief pitcher.

[Irondawg]

Well to really answer the question you have to look and see if the pro coaches could do anything with them either. Most of those coaches are good enough to help guys maximize their talent.

For instance I know of a pitcher on another sec team that while throwing for a scout took a suggestion from said scout and immediately added 4 mph.

When some of those guys have success in the minors then it's a fair question

[Goat Holder]

I don't need a history lesson on our players. I want to know why the hard throwers keep flaming out.

[Goat Holder]

Maybe so. Typically if you can throw 90+ you'll get drafted, so it doesn't really mean much.

[War Machine Dawg]

It's valid. Look at Lindgren - the guy can't handle starting a contest. Real Deal is called a "creature of habit". Are we coddling these guys, or the opposite? Does Butch have 'his' system which is all he can coach?

I don't see being a "creature of habit" as necessarily being a bad thing. Roy Halladay was an average to below average MLB pitcher before he became a "creature of habit." Afterwards, he was arguably the best pitcher in MLB for years.

As for Lindgren, Woody, E Mitchell, etc. some guys just don't have it upstairs. That's the hardest thing to figure out about pitchers coming out of HS. To quote Bull Durham "Million dollar arm, five cent head."

[Coach34]

how are these drafted players performing in the minors?