Holder vs Wahl

[Will James]

In SEC Play
K%.... Holder 41.3%.. Wahl 19.5%
BB%.. Holder 6.5%.... Wahl 10.7%
AVG... Holder .159.... Wahl .165
K/BB... Holder 6.33.... Wahl 1.82
ERA.... Holder 0.36.... Wahl 1.24
WHIP.. Holder 0.77.... Wahl 1.01
XBH/IP Holder 0.08.... Wahl 0.21
FIP..... Holder 1.40.... Wahl 3.16

[CadaverDawg]

In SEC Play
K%.... Holder 41.3%.. Wahl 19.5%
BB%.. Holder 6.5%.... Wahl 10.7%
AVG... Holder .159.... Wahl .165
K/BB... Holder 6.33.... Wahl 1.82
ERA.... Holder 0.36.... Wahl 1.24
WHIP.. Holder 0.77.... Wahl 1.01
XBH/IP Holder 0.08.... Wahl 0.21
FIP..... Holder 1.40.... Wahl 3.16

How many innings has each pitched?

[Will James]

How many innings has each pitched?

All of those stats are not cumulative but Wahl 65.1 Holder 24.2

[CadaverDawg]

All of those stats are not cumulative but Wahl 65.1 Holder 24.2

You think Holder should start next season? We could move Bracewell to closer if he comes back.

[Coach34]

You think Holder should start next season? We could move Bracewell to closer if he comes back.

It's an option for sure. Holder has to develop a 3rd pitch to do that though

[RTO Dawg]

You think Holder should start next season? We could move Bracewell to closer if he comes back.

Fri. E. Mitchell
Sat. Lindy
Sun. Big Ben

Closer Holder

[msstate7]

Fri. E. Mitchell
Sat. Lindy
Sun. Big Ben

Closer Holder

You think Evan comes back? I would love for him to. Could be year he puts it all together...

[Will James]

Also something that should raise a red flag for Wahl in the draft. ATTN SCOUTS!

Wahl has a SIERA of 4.34. Not good. The link explaining this stat can be found at the bottom of the post. Basically it is like FIP, but also adds in groundballs and flyballs. Obviously ground balls are better because they limit HR and XBH. Wahl's ground ball % is only 45%. His fly ball % is 43%. That don't translate well when facing top hitters.

To add icing on his cake he doesn't get that many K's and walks a good amount of people, his 19.5% is very pedestrian for a "top prospect". His K/BB ratio of 1.82 is downright shitty.

So here is a top Bear prospect that doesn't strike people out, gives up walks, and allows a ton of fly balls. I think he gets his ass rocked at the next level and won't pan out for much. If I am an MLB team, I'm saying "Thanks but no thanks" to this sheep in bear's clothing

Holder's SIERA is a ridiculous 1.27

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/siera/
(http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/siera/)

[Todd4State]

Wahl's draft stock has been dropping. The reason is because a LOT of teams think he is going to be a relief pitcher in MLB. Based on what I saw Sunday, I think that's probably a fair assessment.

Also, I really wish someone in baseball- sabermetrics or otherwise would quit lumping all pitchers together in one category. To me, starting pitcher and relief pitcher are two totally different positions. You could even break it down further into closer, set-up man, middle relief, etc.

I still think Holder is far more valuable to us as a closer than a starting pitcher. As coach said, he would need a third pitch, but also being a closer is something that is totally different than being a starter. You have to be able to get through a lineup more than twice. A closer- first of all, they come in with a lead, and so the batter is normally trying to get ahead in the count meaning that they are taking pitches. So, if you have a guy like Holder that has good control and can throw strike one and strike two- well, they're pretty much screwed with that curveball he has that is just about unhittable and he can also throw for strikes.

Also, I don't think we need to make him a starting pitcher. We have a healthy Woodruff coming back, Lindgren will be much better, Trevor Fitts, Will Cox, and honestly, I would let Bracewell start before I started Holder.

But even more than that, on the rare occasions that Holder has come into a game in a non-save situation or a situation where the game has been tied, he hasn't nearly been as effective.

[Todd4State]

Also something that should raise a red flag for Wahl in the draft. ATTN SCOUTS!

Wahl has a SIERA of 4.34. Not good. The link explaining this stat can be found at the bottom of the post. Basically it is like FIP, but also adds in groundballs and flyballs. Obviously ground balls are better because they limit HR and XBH. Wahl's ground ball % is only 45%. His fly ball % is 43%. That don't translate well when facing top hitters.

To add icing on his cake he doesn't get that many K's and walks a good amount of people, his 19.5% is very pedestrian for a "top prospect". His K/BB ratio of 1.82 is downright shitty.

So here is a top Bear prospect that doesn't strike people out, gives up walks, and allows a ton of fly balls. I think he gets his ass rocked at the next level and won't pan out for much. If I am an MLB team, I'm saying "Thanks but no thanks" to this sheep in bear's clothing

Holder's SIERA is a ridiculous 1.27

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/siera/
(http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/siera/)

That doesn't surprise me at all. He wasn't very efficient against us. Our game plan against him was pretty smart- work the count and drive his pitch count up and hope Bianco doesn't decide to leave him in for 150 and rock their bullpen's world. Fortunately, we didn't give up too many runs at the start to overcome.

Oh- and an Ole Miss pitching prospect NOT panning out at the next level? You don't say.:cool:

[Todd4State]

Speaking of prospects, Chris Stratton is rated the third best prospect in the Giants organization and Devin Jones is rated in the top 20 in the Orioles.

Both have an outstanding chance of making it up to MLB in the next two years. I think Devin will be a middle relief guy.

[Homedawg]

You think Holder should start next season? We could move Bracewell to closer if he comes back.

If it were me- and it's not- no way.

[Homedawg]

You think Evan comes back? I would love for him to. Could be year he puts it all together...

No. Not unless he wants to be one of the 8 guys who aren't on baseball aid. Bc he won't be next year. I like the optimism. But what makes u think he's all of the sudden going to make a turn upward?

[CadaverDawg]

If it were me- and it's not- no way.

Yea, I'm not a fan of Holder in the rotation either. Like Todd said, we should have Woodruff, Lindgren, Bracewell, Fitts, Cox, Shelly, and maybe even Evan, who knows. Why take one of the best closers in the SEC out of that role when you don't Have too? If Woodruff and Evan are done, and Hudson or another freshman can't start...maybe we look at Holder. But I would definitely try Bracewell in the rotation before Holder. Or even Ross.

[Will James]

Speaking of prospects, Chris Stratton is rated the third best prospect in the Giants organization and Devin Jones is rated in the top 20 in the Orioles.

Both have an outstanding chance of making it up to MLB in the next two years. I think Devin will be a middle relief guy.

Guess who led us in FIP in 2011.... Devin Jones.

[Homedawg]

In SEC Play
K%.... Holder 41.3%.. Wahl 19.5%
BB%.. Holder 6.5%.... Wahl 10.7%
AVG... Holder .159.... Wahl .165
K/BB... Holder 6.33.... Wahl 1.82
ERA.... Holder 0.36.... Wahl 1.24
WHIP.. Holder 0.77.... Wahl 1.01
XBH/IP Holder 0.08.... Wahl 0.21
FIP..... Holder 1.40.... Wahl 3.16

A whip of .77 is just plain sick.

[Homedawg]

Guess who led us in FIP in 2011.... Devin Jones.

So, are you saying FIP is a bullshit stat? Because devin jones wasn't any good here except to ignite a good fire. Good stuff, yes. I guy I wanted on the mound? Hell no.

[Homedawg]

Yea, I'm not a fan of Holder in the rotation either. Like Todd said, we should have Woodruff, Lindgren, Bracewell, Fitts, Cox, Shelly, and maybe even Evan, who knows. Why take one of the best closers in the SEC out of that role when you don't Have too? If Woodruff and Evan are done, and Hudson or another freshman can't start...maybe we look at Holder. But I would definitely try Bracewell in the rotation before Holder. Or even Ross.

Like you, I like our options next year for the rotation. Bracewell coming back would be huge, no matter his role. He will be healthy, hopefully, for a full year by then and could be a big factor.

[RTO Dawg]

No. Not unless he wants to be one of the 8 guys who aren't on baseball aid. Bc he won't be next year. I like the optimism. But what makes u think he's all of the sudden going to make a turn upward?

Nasty stuff.....hope he finds his head this summer

[Will James]

So, are you saying FIP is a bullshit stat? Because devin jones wasn't any good here except to ignite a good fire. Good stuff, yes. I guy I wanted on the mound? Hell no.

Im saying it translates to the next level. Missing your spots and getting hit can be remedied but if you got the natural stuff it will show up in the FIP. Lindgren this year is a good case study in FIP.

[msstate7]

No. Not unless he wants to be one of the 8 guys who aren't on baseball aid. Bc he won't be next year. I like the optimism. But what makes u think he's all of the sudden going to make a turn upward?

I have nothing to base it on but hope unfortunately. I just look at his talent and it makes me sick we can't utilize it. You're prob right about not bringing him back though

[RTO Dawg]

You think Evan comes back? I would love for him to. Could be year he puts it all together...

Evan Mitchell reminds me of Devin Jones.....

[CadaverDawg]

Evan Mitchell reminds me of Devin Jones.....

He reminds me of "Rube"

[Homedawg]

Evan Mitchell reminds me of Devin Jones.....
Good comparison. Very similar.

[Homedawg]

I have nothing to base it on but hope unfortunately. I just look at his talent and it makes me sick we can't utilize it. You're prob right about not bringing him back though
I soooo wish you were right. It would be huge. But I can't get past the facts of the case at this point.

[Will James]

Evan Mitchell reminds me of Devin Jones.....

Evan walks way more people. Twice as many as Jones in fact.

[msstate7]

Evan walks way more people. Twice as many as Jones in fact.
What exactly is Evans problem? Release point?

[CadaverDawg]

What exactly is Evans problem? Release point?

Head case. Goofy as ****.

[RTO Dawg]

Head case. Goofy as ****.

his shit is ridiculous and I would try to help the kid out.......

[msstate7]

Head case. Goofy as ****.

Maybe we can send him to Lucas. It did wonders for Sydney... Haha

[Homedawg]

his shit is ridiculous and I would try to help the kid out.......

I think we have tried to help for 3 years. Short of wearing a garter belt or buying candlesticks as a wedding gift I think hes SOL.