Braves fans.......

[War Machine Dawg]

Here's a nice column on BJ from the AJC. (http://jeffschultz.blog.ajc.com/2014/05/19/b-j-upton-has-become-a-head-case/) Pretty spot on, I'd say. We should really bench his ass and FREE SCHAFER!!!!

[msstate7]

Bj's got 3 walks, 1 hit, and scored 3 runs in the last 2 games. I'm not saying he's raking by no means, but he's being productive. As long as he's getting on base I like him more than Schafer bc he has some power. Now if bj goes back to old ways, I'm fine with Schafer

[smootness]

We're just screwed in CF for the foreseeable future, unless Kyle Wren turns into something. Personally, I'd be all for a move of Heyward to CF and Justin to RF because it's much easier to find a LF (Terdoslavich?) than a CF. And I'd just eat BJ's salary.

That won't happen, but it makes the most sense to me.

[The Croom Diaries]

It's incredible how bad he is. He was a good but not great player in Tampa but he comes to Atlanta and loses all power, all speed, all ability to hit for average or get on base. He's struck out at least 150 times a year so that's just who he is, but he is a AAA outfielder at best. I think Frank Wren makes a lot of good moves, but B.J. and Uggla are two moves that would get you fired up north.

[War Machine Dawg]

It's incredible how bad he is. He was a good but not great player in Tampa but he comes to Atlanta and loses all power, all speed, all ability to hit for average or get on base. He's struck out at least 150 times a year so that's just who he is, but he is a AAA outfielder at best. I think Frank Wren makes a lot of good moves, but B.J. and Uggla are two moves that would get you fired up north.

They should get you fired anywhere period. To think we gave up Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Uggla. And we could've re-signed Bourn for what we gave BJ. How much better would this team be with Bourn leading off & playing CF? It pisses me off to think we could have this lineup right now:

1. Bourn, CF
2. Infante, 2B
3. Freeman, 1B
4. J Upton, LF
5. Heyward, RF
6. Johnson, 3B
7. Gattis, C
8. Simmons, SS

Now THAT is a productive, badass lineup.

[msstate7]

I wish the braves could somehow get Jose Altuve from the Astros.

Altuve would put this team over the top IMO

[War Machine Dawg]

I wish the braves could somehow get Jose Altuve from the Astros.

Altuve would put this team over the top IMO

Hell of an idea. I'd swap JHey for him in a heartbeat. Doubt the 'Stros would go for it, though. I think he's the guy they're trying to build around for the future.

[Political Hack]

JHey Griffey Jr is 5-10 in this series.

[msstate7]

JHey Griffey Jr is 5-10 in this series.

I think he's about to blow up.

[KB21]

We're just screwed in CF for the foreseeable future, unless Kyle Wren turns into something. Personally, I'd be all for a move of Heyward to CF and Justin to RF because it's much easier to find a LF (Terdoslavich?) than a CF. And I'd just eat BJ's salary.

That won't happen, but it makes the most sense to me.

I agree with this, but Heyward is a guy that also has to realize his potential as well. It is getting to the point that I wonder if he's going to become the Jason Heyward that can post a 6 WAR season with a .210 ISO like he did in 2012.

Mycal Jones is having a strong season at Mississippi. He was a highly regarded guy coming out of JUCO ball. Maybe he has realized some potential. Other than him, Kyle Wren is really the only other guy that can possibly project as a starter down the road.

[smootness]

They should get you fired anywhere period. To think we gave up Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Uggla. And we could've re-signed Bourn for what we gave BJ. How much better would this team be with Bourn leading off & playing CF? It pisses me off to think we could have this lineup right now:

1. Bourn, CF
2. Infante, 2B
3. Freeman, 1B
4. J Upton, LF
5. Heyward, RF
6. Johnson, 3B
7. Gattis, C
8. Simmons, SS

Now THAT is a productive, badass lineup.

No thanks on Bourn and Infante at the top of the lineup. I'm not sure if you've seen what they've done recently. Bourn had an OBP just over .300 last year and only stole 23 bases to 12 CS. His OBP is below .300 this year. Yes, he's better than BJ right now, but he would still be overpaid by quite a bit. I don't fault Wren for signing BJ. If he had just continued doing what he was doing for TB (.250, 20 HR, 30 SB while playing good CF) he would have been worth the money.

Same with Uggla, too. And Uggla did give us a decent first couple of years. He wasn't the Marlins Uggla, but he was still a valuable 2B and more valuable than Infante would have been those first couple of years. It's just that he dropped off even further after that, something we somewhat saw coming. I blame Wren a little more for that deal, but it's more about the extension we gave him and not the trade itself.

[smootness]

Mycal Jones is having a strong season at Mississippi. He was a highly regarded guy coming out of JUCO ball. Maybe he has realized some potential. Other than him, Kyle Wren is really the only other guy that can possibly project as a starter down the road.

Mycal Jones is 27 and older than just about everyone in AA. He's not a prospect. I'm hoping Wren can develop into something, but this season hasn't been promising so far.

[The Croom Diaries]

Uggla has never been good, but I don't blame Wren too much. He was a solid player with the Marlins and hit .287 with 33 HR and 105 RBI the year before he came to Atlanta so it looked like he was about to hit his prime. But he's had enough chances, and if he's still on the team by the all-star break then I will blame Wren.

BJ was overpaid from the start. He has never been a good hitter. Just a guy with some occasional pop and the ability to steal a base. He should've been paid around $8-10 mil instead of $15. If he has the Braves would be looking at eating $25 million instead of $45 million he they were to cut ties after the 2014 season.

[War Machine Dawg]

No thanks on Bourn and Infante at the top of the lineup. I'm not sure if you've seen what they've done recently. Bourn had an OBP just over .300 last year and only stole 23 bases to 12 CS. His OBP is below .300 this year. Yes, he's better than BJ right now, but he would still be overpaid by quite a bit. I don't fault Wren for signing BJ. If he had just continued doing what he was doing for TB (.250, 20 HR, 30 SB while playing good CF) he would have been worth the money.

Same with Uggla, too. And Uggla did give us a decent first couple of years. He wasn't the Marlins Uggla, but he was still a valuable 2B and more valuable than Infante would have been those first couple of years. It's just that he dropped off even further after that, something we somewhat saw coming. I blame Wren a little more for that deal, but it's more about the extension we gave him and not the trade itself.

Uh, no. I was never enamored with Uggla and hated the trade the day it was done. And as for Uggla having "a decent first couple of years" that's wrong. He had literally one good 3 month stretch in hist first season. Other than that, he's been plain terrible.

Infante isn't great, but he's been better than Uggla. Or hell, we still could've traded him and kept Prado. That would've been best all the way around.

Bourn is, has been, and will be better than BJ. He's an elite #1 hitter. Guys struggle after getting new deals with new teams. I'd be willing to bet he'd still be putting up All-Star numbers if he'd stayed in Atlanta.

[smootness]

Uh, no. I was never enamored with Uggla and hated the trade the day it was done. And as for Uggla having "a decent first couple of years" that's wrong. He had literally one good 3 month stretch in hist first season. Other than that, he's been plain terrible.

Infante isn't great, but he's been better than Uggla. Or hell, we still could've traded him and kept Prado. That would've been best all the way around.

Bourn is, has been, and will be better than BJ. He's an elite #1 hitter. Guys struggle after getting new deals with new teams. I'd be willing to bet he'd still be putting up All-Star numbers if he'd stayed in Atlanta.

Uggla absolutely was decent his first couple of years. He put up a 2.2 WAR his first year and a 3.3 his second. He may not have been worth the money we were paying him, but he was a valuable 2B despite his decline in offensive numbers. He was more valuable than Infante those first 2 years.

And no, Bourn is not an elite #1 hitter, not anymore. His offensive numbers and SBs were already declining with Atlanta, and he's now a guy who doesn't get on base much and struggles to steal bases when he is on. He obviously never had any power to speak of. If BJ was still hitting .240ish with a .300ish OBP with the kind of power/speed he showed in TB, he would be better than Bourn right now.

Either way, we were going to have to overpay for our CF. You always do in FA, and we had to get a CF through FA. Our choices were essentially Bourn or BJ, and going in everyone assumed you would pay about an equal amount for either. We tried to give Bourn an offer, he didn't take it, and we couldn't risk waiting out and missing on both. So we signed BJ. We knew we had overpaid some at the time, and obviously he's being way overpaid now. But Bourn is also being way overpaid; he just doesn't suck as bad.

[smootness]

BJ was overpaid from the start. He has never been a good hitter. Just a guy with some occasional pop and the ability to steal a base. He should've been paid around $8-10 mil instead of $15. If he has the Braves would be looking at eating $25 million instead of $45 million he they were to cut ties after the 2014 season.

That's what the market was. You always overpay in FA. If we had gone in saying, 'We will only offer what we feel you're worth,' we wouldn't have had either BJ or Bourn. And we would have been screwed. We ended up screwed anyway, but I would have been much more upset with Wren had he not cared who our CF was.

[The Croom Diaries]

That's what the market was. You always overpay in FA. If we had gone in saying, 'We will only offer what we feel you're worth,' we wouldn't have had either BJ or Bourn. And we would have been screwed. We ended up screwed anyway, but I would have been much more upset with Wren had he not cared who our CF was.

That's on Wren then. You could pretty much name any CF in the major leagues and probably 25 in the minor leagues who would be doing better than B.J. Upton right now, and he's the highest paid player for one of the best franchises in MLB.

If you're thinking about making an average ball player your highest paid player then you should just go with a rookie. Just that fact alone is a strike against Wren. But the fact that BJ has been worse than horrible just compounds the issue.

[War Machine Dawg]

That's on Wren then. You could pretty much name any CF in the major leagues and probably 25 in the minor leagues who would be doing better than B.J. Upton right now, and he's the highest paid player for one of the best franchises in MLB.

If you're thinking about making an average ball player your highest paid player then you should just go with a rookie. Just that fact alone is a strike against Wren. But the fact that BJ has been worse than horrible just compounds the issue.

Not to mention we could've traded for Denard Span. In fact, there was talk we might do that. Instead, he's playing a good CF for our division rival the Nats.

[War Machine Dawg]

Uggla absolutely was decent his first couple of years. He put up a 2.2 WAR his first year and a 3.3 his second. He may not have been worth the money we were paying him, but he was a valuable 2B despite his decline in offensive numbers. He was more valuable than Infante those first 2 years.

And no, Bourn is not an elite #1 hitter, not anymore. His offensive numbers and SBs were already declining with Atlanta, and he's now a guy who doesn't get on base much and struggles to steal bases when he is on. He obviously never had any power to speak of. If BJ was still hitting .240ish with a .300ish OBP with the kind of power/speed he showed in TB, he would be better than Bourn right now.

Either way, we were going to have to overpay for our CF. You always do in FA, and we had to get a CF through FA. Our choices were essentially Bourn or BJ, and going in everyone assumed you would pay about an equal amount for either. We tried to give Bourn an offer, he didn't take it, and we couldn't risk waiting out and missing on both. So we signed BJ. We knew we had overpaid some at the time, and obviously he's being way overpaid now. But Bourn is also being way overpaid; he just doesn't suck as bad.

Ah, WAR. The most speculative, ridiculous, bullshit "stat" ever created. Once aGAIN, go look at his numbers. He's been nothing short of awful outside of the post-ASB hot streak in 2011. Anyone with a brain who's actually watched the Braves knows that to be fact. In 2012 (his 2nd year in ATL), Uggla hit .220 with 19 HRs. Those 19 HRs are the fewest of his career to date.

Uggla was never a good player, and I never understood why the Braves coveted him for so long, other than he was a Braves Killer for the Marlins. He sucked on D, and other than his power numbers, wasn't a good hitter. Outside of a couple of years, he never batted much more than .250 with the Marlins. The seasons he batted .282 and .287 look like the flukes at this point. His other season BAs: .245, .260, .243, .233., .220, .179. He's at .178 so far this season and has been essentially benched. Hell, looking at those numbers, even the .260 season looks like an outlier.

[dawgs]

Not to mention we could've traded for Denard Span. In fact, there was talk we might do that. Instead, he's playing a good CF for our division rival the Nats.

Yeah that was a great move by the nats. Lots of talk they were going to sign upton, then they get span for 2 years at a team friendly price and an option for 2015. Only gave up Alex Meyer, who has good K potential but is now 24 and still in the minors, and hasn't really gotten his control down yet.

[smootness]

Ah, WAR. The most speculative, ridiculous, bullshit "stat" ever created. Once aGAIN, go look at his numbers. He's been nothing short of awful outside of the post-ASB hot streak in 2011. Anyone with a brain who's actually watched the Braves knows that to be fact. In 2012 (his 2nd year in ATL), Uggla hit .220 with 19 HRs. Those 19 HRs are the fewest of his career to date.

Uggla was never a good player, and I never understood why the Braves coveted him for so long, other than he was a Braves Killer for the Marlins. He sucked on D, and other than his power numbers, wasn't a good hitter. Outside of a couple of years, he never batted much more than .250 with the Marlins. The seasons he batted .282 and .287 look like the flukes at this point. His other season BAs: .245, .260, .243, .233., .220, .179. He's at .178 so far this season and has been essentially benched. Hell, looking at those numbers, even the .260 season looks like an outlier.

Ok, let's use OBP and SLG, then. In 2011, Uggla's OBP was 4 points lower than Infante's, and his SLG was 70 points higher. In 2012, Uggla's OBP was 48 points higher and his SLG was 30 points lower. So his OPS both years was higher than Infante's and significantly so in 2011.

If you want to use wRC+, Uggla's was clearly better both years. wOBA? Clearly better both years. If you think BA is more important than all these numbers, then I can't help you. Uggla's 19 HRs in 2012 may not impress you, but they're still good for a 2B and the amount that Infante put up in 2011-2012 combined.

As a 2B, Uggla was a valuable player for us in 2011 and 2012. You may not like players who don't hit for a high average and strike out a lot, but they can still be valuable, and he was. It's just the truth. And at the time the deal was made, it looked like he'd at least give you a .240 BA with 30 HRs and at best would give you a .285 BA with 30 HRs. That is quite good for a 2B - he was either very valuable or insanely valuable. That's why the Braves wanted him. But I've said Wren made a mistake by signing the extension; that's what made it a bad deal.

Let me ask you this, do you think the Chris Johnson extension was a good one?

[smootness]

That's on Wren then. You could pretty much name any CF in the major leagues and probably 25 in the minor leagues who would be doing better than B.J. Upton right now, and he's the highest paid player for one of the best franchises in MLB.

If you're thinking about making an average ball player your highest paid player then you should just go with a rookie. Just that fact alone is a strike against Wren. But the fact that BJ has been worse than horrible just compounds the issue.

Of course there are a ton of CFs better. But the Braves didn't decide to pay '<.200 with no power BJ Upton' that money - they thought they were getting the player he had been, and it turned out badly.

But Span isn't a great option, either. He's a great option compared to what BJ Upton turned into but not compared to what BJ Upton was.

In regard to how to go about contracts, that's just how things work, especially in baseball. If you have the room in your budget available and have a dire need at a certain position, I'm ok with overpaying for it. It kills you if it doesn't work out, so obvioulsy you need to be wise in doing it, but there is no payroll in baseball in which the order of salary is directly analagous to the order of talent/value.

We have been paying Heyward/Freeman/Simmons/Teheran/Minor/Kimbrel, etc. dirt compared to their value, so we have room to overpay at certain positions.

[msstate7]

Didn't the braves come close to angel pagan?

[The Croom Diaries]

Of course there are a ton of CFs better. But the Braves didn't decide to pay '<.200 with no power BJ Upton' that money - they thought they were getting the player he had been, and it turned out badly.

But Span isn't a great option, either. He's a great option compared to what BJ Upton turned into but not compared to what BJ Upton was.

In regard to how to go about contracts, that's just how things work, especially in baseball. If you have the room in your budget available and have a dire need at a certain position, I'm ok with overpaying for it. It kills you if it doesn't work out, so obvioulsy you need to be wise in doing it, but there is no payroll in baseball in which the order of salary is directly analagous to the order of talent/value.

We have been paying Heyward/Freeman/Simmons/Teheran/Minor/Kimbrel, etc. dirt compared to their value, so we have room to overpay at certain positions.

If you've ever looked at Upton's numbers in Tampa, he wasn't that good there either. .230-.240 hitter, 25 HR on a good year with a lot of stolen bases.

[War Machine Dawg]

If you've ever looked at Upton's numbers in Tampa, he wasn't that good there either. .230-.240 hitter, 25 HR on a good year with a lot of stolen bases.

Smootness has no clue. He's attempting to defend the indefensible. Uggla & BJ are awful players whose contracts are albatrosses. Period. All the SABR stats in the world don't change that when you actually watch them and understand they cost you wins by being in the lineup.

[The Croom Diaries]

Smootness has no clue. He's attempting to defend the indefensible. Uggla & BJ are awful players whose contracts are albatrosses. Period. All the SABR stats in the world don't change that when you actually watch them and understand they cost you wins by being in the lineup.

Yep. When these two are so bad that the franchise is considering eating $75 million worth of contracts just to get your ass off them team - not whether you should be benched, but cut - then you know you are just a lousy piece of crap. They are the suck brothers. 25% of the lineup taking up by AA players.

[smootness]

Smootness has no clue. He's attempting to defend the indefensible. Uggla & BJ are awful players whose contracts are albatrosses. Period. All the SABR stats in the world don't change that when you actually watch them and understand they cost you wins by being in the lineup.

What are you talking about? I watch the Braves just about every night. They're both incomprehensibly bad now. Uggla wasn't his first two years in Atlanta. And BJ wasn't in TB. Yes, their contracts now are albatrosses. But you have to take risks as a GM, not all of them work out. We've been very good and trending up with Wren as a GM. He's done a great job overall.

But sure, every player who hits below .280 is terrible.

[War Machine Dawg]

What are you talking about? I watch the Braves just about every night. They're both incomprehensibly bad now. Uggla wasn't his first two years in Atlanta. And BJ wasn't in TB. Yes, their contracts now are albatrosses. But you have to take risks as a GM, not all of them work out. We've been very good and trending up with Wren as a GM. He's done a great job overall.

But sure, every player who hits below .280 is terrible.

I showed you by the numbers how bad Uggla was his 2nd year. He had literally one good 3-month stretch post-ASB of 2011. Other than that, he's been bad. Every Braves fan but you agrees on that point. Once aGAIN, Uggla batted .233 with only 19 HRs and 78 RBI in 2012. That is NOT a good year.

[msstate7]

1 game, but uggla and Bj had good games tonight