Cohen Ball

[MetEdDawg]

I was a fan of Cohen's style. It's worked well for stretches and against good teams. I am losing faith in the overall approach of what he wants to do. This is not a knee jerk reaction to losing 2 to LSU in Baton Rouge (which really isn't the end of the world people). I don't like our line up construction because we just don't have enough pop and I'm not talking about HR power.

Utilizing the HBP and the BB and sac bunts is great when teams actually give you those opportunities. Good teams have good pitching that limit those types of opportunities. But I want you to go through a stretch of our lineup right now and find me a spot where you say "I can count on those guys getting solid contact on a ball 3 or 4 out of 10 times." Not a hit, just solid contact. We don't have that. When teams don't walk us, we have an amazingly difficult time at creating our own runs because we don't have enough consistently solid contact guys. We had 3 guys over 6 feet tall in our lineup tonight. The rest are 5' 10" and under and are just not the kind of guys that are going to get a ton of runs home.

Britton, Randolph, and Vickerson and gaping holes right now in the lineup. We have an amazing defense because of them and that has helped us. But does anyone think that replacing those three by putting Detz and 3rd, DH Humphreys, Garner or Collins at C, and either moving Vickerson down in the lineup or platooning with Robson/Brown is going to really kill us? I just don't buy that. We need more guys with gap potential. We need solid contact guys that can do some damage when they hit it hard. We have got to start manipulating our lineup to our strengths and if that means moving guys up and down the lineup game by game or series by series, then so be it.

I know everyone is struggling to score runs in today's college baseball, but it always seems like the teams in the end have good pitching and defense, but also are able to hit balls hard and not have to rely on 3 or 4 guys to make decent contact to score a run. Just my opinion.

[Todd4State]

I agree with much of that. The biggest problem with small ball is if the other team plays well, it's tough to score. That's why I want a balanced lineup with speed and power. That way we can do both.

I'd definitely give Collins the lion's share at catcher. He's a better hitter and defender than Randolph.

Humphreys is better defensively at third than Detz, so I'd move Detz to DH and Humprheys to third.

With the OF, I'd go Armstrong, CT, and Henderson. If one of those guys cools off, then go with someone else.

[MarketingBully01]

I was a fan of Cohen's style. It's worked well for stretches and against good teams. I am losing faith in the overall approach of what he wants to do. This is not a knee jerk reaction to losing 2 to LSU in Baton Rouge (which really isn't the end of the world people). I don't like our line up construction because we just don't have enough pop and I'm not talking about HR power.

Utilizing the HBP and the BB and sac bunts is great when teams actually give you those opportunities. Good teams have good pitching that limit those types of opportunities. But I want you to go through a stretch of our lineup right now and find me a spot where you say "I can count on those guys getting solid contact on a ball 3 or 4 out of 10 times." Not a hit, just solid contact. We don't have that. When teams don't walk us, we have an amazingly difficult time at creating our own runs because we don't have enough consistently solid contact guys. We had 3 guys over 6 feet tall in our lineup tonight. The rest are 5' 10" and under and are just not the kind of guys that are going to get a ton of runs home.

Britton, Randolph, and Vickerson and gaping holes right now in the lineup. We have an amazing defense because of them and that has helped us. But does anyone think that replacing those three by putting Detz and 3rd, DH Humphreys, Garner or Collins at C, and either moving Vickerson down in the lineup or platooning with Robson/Brown is going to really kill us? I just don't buy that. We need more guys with gap potential. We need solid contact guys that can do some damage when they hit it hard. We have got to start manipulating our lineup to our strengths and if that means moving guys up and down the lineup game by game or series by series, then so be it.

I know everyone is struggling to score runs in today's college baseball, but it always seems like the teams in the end have good pitching and defense, but also are able to hit balls hard and not have to rely on 3 or 4 guys to make decent contact to score a run. Just my opinion.

Here is a stat that should scare the shit out of you for this year's team. A stat that is very telling and adds validity to your concerns. We are 3-4 when the opposing team doesn't commit an error. I found that stat mind boggling and it speaks a lot to the fact if the other team doesn't make a mistake, we don't win.

[MarketingBully01]

I agree with much of that. The biggest problem with small ball is if the other team plays well, it's tough to score. That's why I want a balanced lineup with speed and power. That way we can do both.

I'd definitely give Collins the lion's share at catcher. He's a better hitter and defender than Randolph.

Humphreys is better defensively at third than Detz, so I'd move Detz to DH and Humprheys to third.

With the OF, I'd go Armstrong, CT, and Henderson. If one of those guys cools off, then go with someone else.

I agree 100% with your changes Todd.

[DancingRabbit]

I was a fan of Cohen's style.


but it always seems like the teams in the end


10 months removed from #2 in the country

I know message boards are made to 2nd guess but for now I'll blame it on talent and chemistry and continue to hold out hope for "Cohen ball"

[C222]

We should fire him. Cohen ball has only gotten us and SEC tourney win, 2 Supers, and a National Championship game appearance. Terrible.

[BogeyGolfer]

I was a fan of Cohen's style. It's worked well for stretches and against good teams. I am losing faith in the overall approach of what he wants to do. This is not a knee jerk reaction to losing 2 to LSU in Baton Rouge (which really isn't the end of the world people). I don't like our line up construction because we just don't have enough pop and I'm not talking about HR power.

Utilizing the HBP and the BB and sac bunts is great when teams actually give you those opportunities. Good teams have good pitching that limit those types of opportunities. But I want you to go through a stretch of our lineup right now and find me a spot where you say "I can count on those guys getting solid contact on a ball 3 or 4 out of 10 times." Not a hit, just solid contact. We don't have that. When teams don't walk us, we have an amazingly difficult time at creating our own runs because we don't have enough consistently solid contact guys. We had 3 guys over 6 feet tall in our lineup tonight. The rest are 5' 10" and under and are just not the kind of guys that are going to get a ton of runs home.

Britton, Randolph, and Vickerson and gaping holes right now in the lineup. We have an amazing defense because of them and that has helped us. But does anyone think that replacing those three by putting Detz and 3rd, DH Humphreys, Garner or Collins at C, and either moving Vickerson down in the lineup or platooning with Robson/Brown is going to really kill us? I just don't buy that. We need more guys with gap potential. We need solid contact guys that can do some damage when they hit it hard. We have got to start manipulating our lineup to our strengths and if that means moving guys up and down the lineup game by game or series by series, then so be it.

I know everyone is struggling to score runs in today's college baseball, but it always seems like the teams in the end have good pitching and defense, but also are able to hit balls hard and not have to rely on 3 or 4 guys to make decent contact to score a run. Just my opinion.

You need to take a deep breath and relax... By the end of the season we will be very good and Cohen always has us playing to a very high level. I agree that our bats need to improve but take a look around the league, Ark just took the series from USC. We will be fine... " In Cohen I Trust"

[AlSwearengen]

I would like to see us work Humphries in at third, not full time, but lets put him in there with his best chance to succeed (maybe on sundays). Outfield needs to be CT, Henderson, Armstrong, with Cody Brown sprinkled in. Time for Collins to catch on friday and sunday and let Randolph spell him on saturdays.

I like the idea of protecting freshmen from losing confidence, but we at least need to get them a little playing time to get some experience.

[Saltydog]

fine. Did you play Kevin Bacon's character in "Animal House"?

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

I agree with much of that. The biggest problem with small ball is if the other team plays well, it's tough to score. That's why I want a balanced lineup with speed and power. That way we can do both.

I'd definitely give Collins the lion's share at catcher. He's a better hitter and defender than Randolph.

Humphreys is better defensively at third than Detz, so I'd move Detz to DH and Humprheys to third.

With the OF, I'd go Armstrong, CT, and Henderson. If one of those guys cools off, then go with someone else.

Agree 100%

[Todd4State]

Here is a stat that should scare the shit out of you for this year's team. A stat that is very telling and adds validity to your concerns. We are 3-4 when the opposing team doesn't commit an error. I found that stat mind boggling and it speaks a lot to the fact if the other team doesn't make a mistake, we don't win.

The thing is at pretty much every level of baseball, the team that wins usually wins because they played better than the other team. Mistakes come in many different forms because of how baseball is scored. If Ross doesn't make his error, we win last night.

[DownwardDawg]

We should fire him. Cohen ball has only gotten us and SEC tourney win, 2 Supers, and a National Championship game appearance. Terrible.

Yeah, way too early to panic. I do some second guessing also but he has shown that these early season results mean nothing towards how well we finish.

[Will James]

We should fire him. Cohen ball has only gotten us and SEC tourney win, 2 Supers, and a National Championship game appearance. Terrible.


We went to a bowl game last year.
We often ran Perkins up the middle.

Conclusion: We went to a bowl game because we ran Perkins up the middle often.

[War Machine Dawg]

I was a fan of Cohen's style. It's worked well for stretches and against good teams. I am losing faith in the overall approach of what he wants to do. This is not a knee jerk reaction to losing 2 to LSU in Baton Rouge (which really isn't the end of the world people). I don't like our line up construction because we just don't have enough pop and I'm not talking about HR power.

Utilizing the HBP and the BB and sac bunts is great when teams actually give you those opportunities. Good teams have good pitching that limit those types of opportunities. But I want you to go through a stretch of our lineup right now and find me a spot where you say "I can count on those guys getting solid contact on a ball 3 or 4 out of 10 times." Not a hit, just solid contact. We don't have that. When teams don't walk us, we have an amazingly difficult time at creating our own runs because we don't have enough consistently solid contact guys. We had 3 guys over 6 feet tall in our lineup tonight. The rest are 5' 10" and under and are just not the kind of guys that are going to get a ton of runs home.

Britton, Randolph, and Vickerson and gaping holes right now in the lineup. We have an amazing defense because of them and that has helped us. But does anyone think that replacing those three by putting Detz and 3rd, DH Humphreys, Garner or Collins at C, and either moving Vickerson down in the lineup or platooning with Robson/Brown is going to really kill us? I just don't buy that. We need more guys with gap potential. We need solid contact guys that can do some damage when they hit it hard. We have got to start manipulating our lineup to our strengths and if that means moving guys up and down the lineup game by game or series by series, then so be it.

I know everyone is struggling to score runs in today's college baseball, but it always seems like the teams in the end have good pitching and defense, but also are able to hit balls hard and not have to rely on 3 or 4 guys to make decent contact to score a run. Just my opinion.

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae73/MSUDawgBurke/JokerSlowClap_zps7a9617b1.gif (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/MSUDawgBurke/media/JokerSlowClap_zps7a9617b1.gif.html)

THIS. Every. Damn. Word. Although I'd leave Britton in for D. Or take the gamble and put Humphreys at 3B.

[War Machine Dawg]

We went to a bowl game last year.
We often ran Perkins up the middle.

Conclusion: We went to a bowl game because we ran Perkins up the middle often.

Damn, WJ actually making a good point.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm a convert to your side in terms of bunting. It's the dumbest play in all of baseball. NEVER give up an out. NEVER. It's cost us 2 runs just in the last 2 games.

[SignalToNoise]

We should fire him. Cohen ball has only gotten us and SEC tourney win, 2 Supers, and a National Championship game appearance. Terrible.

This is a message board where fans come to discuss the game, strategy/lineups, and other philosophies related to it. Responses like yours to posts that are well-thought-out are really annoying. You don't have to agree with the opinions, but no one in this thread is calling for Cohen to be fired.

If you would care to disagree with any of the points he is posting and add make a meaningful contribution to the conversation that would be great.

[State82]

This is a message board where fans come to discuss the game, strategy/lineups, and other philosophies related to it. Responses like yours to posts that are well-thought-out are really annoying. You don't have to agree with the opinions, but no one in this thread is calling for Cohen to be fired.

If you would care to disagree with any of the points he is posting and add make a meaningful contribution to the conversation that would be great.

Very well put. But I guess only in a perfect world will you have mature, grown-up conversation. Unfortunately, we are quite a ways away from that.

[BulldogBear]

Here is a stat that should scare the shit out of you for this year's team. A stat that is very telling and adds validity to your concerns. We are 3-4 when the opposing team doesn't commit an error. I found that stat mind boggling and it speaks a lot to the fact if the other team doesn't make a mistake, we don't win.

That trend can be applied to any sport, but in baseball it can be crippling when you are undependable when it comes to forcing your will anyway. Read that as "put the ball in play." When the ball comes off the bat, stuff happens. When it doesn't you have to work really really really hard to make those same things happen and more often than not, as you pointed out, the other folks have to make mistakes.

Conclusion: More mistakes happen when you can consistantly put the ball in play.

[BulldogBear]

Damn, WJ actually making a good point.

And I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm a convert to your side in terms of bunting. It's the dumbest play in all of baseball. NEVER give up an out. NEVER. It's cost us 2 runs just in the last 2 games.

Yep, while I don't say "never" bunt (hell, if you got a kid or two that CAN bunt in little league, your team's going to win your league!), see my above comment^. I'd rather just knock the ball into play and see what happens. Stuff happens when the other team has to actually play defense.

[War Machine Dawg]

Yep, while I don't say "never" bunt (hell, if you got a kid or two that CAN bunt in little league, your team's going to win your league!), see my above comment^. I'd rather just knock the ball into play and see what happens. Stuff happens when the other team has to actually play defense.

I'm to the point where just about the only time I'd even consider it is if it's a suicide or safety squeeze, where you're gambling on scoring a run. I *might* bunt Randolph, just because he's an automatic out anyway. Why not at least give him a chance to move a guy 90 feet? Other than that, I'm ready to lose my shit with all the bunting.

[smootness]

Anyone saying that we need to change is missing the fact that we're already beginning to change. Look at who we are now recruiting in terms of position players, and you'll see that the days of 'bunt, hope for an error, etc.' are soon to be gone. It's just that the transition hasn't fully taken place, so our best bet for this year's team is to continue to play small ball.

Collins, Humphreys, Swinarski, Rooker, Ingram, Gordon, Vallot, Burdick, etc. - we are already recruiting to do exactly what you want us to do. We just have to give it another year or two before we fully see a lineup like you want.

[Todd4State]

Yep, while I don't say "never" bunt (hell, if you got a kid or two that CAN bunt in little league, your team's going to win your league!), see my above comment^. I'd rather just knock the ball into play and see what happens. Stuff happens when the other team has to actually play defense.

Well, my thing is this:

We want to put pressure on the defense. What causes more pressure? The threat of a single or a home run? Or even a double?

If we can steal bases, bunt, hit and run and do the things that we do pretty well right now but add some power to it, then all of a sudden that mistake goes from one run to maybe 3-4 runs. If a team- the pitcher and the defense have to worry about something like bunting, stealing etc. it causes them to have to account for that. And that sometimes causes them to throw pitches that are easier to crush. It causes the defense to have to play to account for the small ball things and that can also open up holes.

[Todd4State]

Anyone saying that we need to change is missing the fact that we're already beginning to change. Look at who we are now recruiting in terms of position players, and you'll see that the days of 'bunt, hope for an error, etc.' are soon to be gone. It's just that the transition hasn't fully taken place, so our best bet for this year's team is to continue to play small ball.

Collins, Humphreys, Swinarski, Rooker, Ingram, Gordon, Vallot, Burdick, etc. - we are already recruiting to do exactly what you want us to do. We just have to give it another year or two before we fully see a lineup like you want.

That's the problem with power hitters though- they have to develop most of the time. It's a lot easier to get guys that can run and steal bases as far as immediate impact a lot of times.

[Todd4State]

We went to a bowl game last year.
We often ran Perkins up the middle.

Conclusion: We went to a bowl game because we ran Perkins up the middle often.

So going to a bowl is now = a championship in baseball? I don't think so.

The difference is Cohen at least uses the strengths of our players that he puts on the field. Not trying to run and do things to take advantage of their speed would be much more like Dan running Perkins up the middle.

[Will James]

So going to a bowl is now = a championship in baseball? I don't think so.

The difference is Cohen at least uses the strengths of our players that he puts on the field. Not trying to run and do things to take advantage of their speed would be much more like Dan running Perkins up the middle.

1. It was an analogy with correlation/causation. The ANALOGY fits. Hank Williams Jr. wasn't comparing Obama to Hitler.

2. You always include the bunt in your "balanced approach" sentence but it's just not like the others. Sac bunting doesn't take advantage of speed OR play into strengths. Its not "stealing, bunting, hit and running"… Its "stealing and hit and running". If you mean drag bunting then thats 100% different and we all know that. Its not ALL bunting that we don't like. Its squaring around and GUARANTEEING an out moving ONE runner up. Its always been that… for years now…. but we have to spell it out every.damn.time.

[HailState39110]

fine. Did you play Kevin Bacon's character in "Animal House"?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zDAmPIq29ro

[Todd4State]

1. It was an analogy with correlation/causation. The ANALOGY fits. Hank Williams Jr. wasn't comparing Obama to Hitler.

2. You always include the bunt in your "balanced approach" sentence but it's just not like the others. Sac bunting doesn't take advantage of speed OR play into strengths. Its not "stealing, bunting, hit and running"… Its "stealing and hit and running". If you mean drag bunting then thats 100% different and we all know that. Its not ALL bunting that we don't like. Its squaring around and GUARANTEEING an out moving ONE runner up. Its always been that… for years now…. but we have to spell it out every.damn.time.


1. No- it was a bad anaolgy all the way around. And using Hank Williams Jr. as a defense should tell you something. Like you need to think before you post.

2. I mention it because I've seen you bitch about obvious drag bunts before. You hate bunting so much you couldn't even include it in "stealing and hit and running." Hilarious. When I am talking about bunting and using speed- it should be obvious that I'm talking about drag bunting. I shouldn't have to spell that out for you either. None of the other baseball posters have a problem understanding what I am saying. I wonder why?

[C222]

This is a message board where fans come to discuss the game, strategy/lineups, and other philosophies related to it. Responses like yours to posts that are well-thought-out are really annoying. You don't have to agree with the opinions, but no one in this thread is calling for Cohen to be fired.

If you would care to disagree with any of the points he is posting and add make a meaningful contribution to the conversation that would be great.

So saying "Cohen ball" isn't working, when clearly it is, is okay? I disagreed by pointing our everything Cohen has accomplished. Sorry that wasn't meaningful enough for you.

[Will James]

So saying "Cohen ball" isn't working, when clearly it is.

Crystal clear this weekend

[C222]

Crystal clear this weekend

Let's take 1 weekend and not the entire ****ing time he's been here. Great post.

[Will James]

Let's take 1 weekend and not the entire ****ing time he's been here. Great post.

"Cohenball" is not all aspects of MSU baseball under Cohen pal.

Refer back to "Perkins up the middle is THE reason for us going to a bowl game"

[HancockCountyDog]

most of these posts are going to look silly in about 6 weeks.

Just saying

[SignalToNoise]

So saying "Cohen ball" isn't working, when clearly it is, is okay? I disagreed by pointing our everything Cohen has accomplished. Sorry that wasn't meaningful enough for you.

It adds nothing meaningful because what we did last year or two years ago doesn't matter at this point.

A lot of us see this past weekend's offensive production as a legit concern and want to discuss things we could do differently to get the bats going again. If anyone is wanting to fire Cohen- then fine, show them your post 1000x, but right now a lot of us just want changes to the lineup so the offense will look better than what Sly Croom produced.

[RossDawg82]

Our problem certainly isn't John Cohen. For those that think he is the problem after what he has done in the short time he has been here are absolutely crazy. You guys do realize that we lost a great starter in Graveman, one of the better relievers in the NCAA in Girado, a career .378 hitter and the 9th overall pick in the draft. Are we were I would like to be NO, but come on guys. It is stupid for you guys to come out and say we suck and we are a horrible team. Some of you sound like rebel fans when you do that. We may not make a Super this year, but there is no doubt we will be back very shortly. We recruit better than most other teams in the country and we still have the best pitching coach in the game. If you feel that we need to be ranked in the top 5 every single year or its a bust then you need to stop watching MSU sports. There will be times when we are down and times when we are up. That is BASEBALL

[RossDawg82]

The thing that we lack this year is one or two bats that intimidate opposing pitchers. Last year it was Renfro. We need someone with pop and right now we don't have it.

[RougeDawg]

The thing that we lack this year is one or two bats that intimidate opposing pitchers. Last year it was Renfro. We need someone with pop and right now we don't have it.

You are basically contradicting everything you said about not blaming Cohen and proving everyone else's point that Cohen ball doesn't work. He had 2 players that carried the lineup last year. Renfroe and Frazier. Without those two, you see what we have. A bunch of guys that can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Bunting needs to be banned from this team. Not because it gives away outs, but because our GD hitters don't know how to do it properly. Never seen such a collective group of shitty bunters. The bat is never out in front of the plate, they rarely "catch" the ball with the bat and they are moving all over the GD place as the ball is coming. Bunting is fairly simple. Bat out front of plate, knees bent, knob or handle pointed to opposite base you are wanting to burn toward. You bend with knees to bunt the ball, not stab at it like our hitters. This falls squarely on whoever is responsible for coaching hitting, whoever that may be.

I'm not going to start on our swings, if you can call them swings. The only two we've seen under Cohen with good mechanics are Frazier and Renfroe, and anyone with baseball knowledge can see that they learned their hitting during their summer leagues. It's no coincidence that Hunters avg and power numbers skyrocketed that summer in the cape. Some small adjustments can make a world of difference and the coaches up there "teach hitting".

This isn't the first time I've brought this up. It was excruciatingly painful to sit there Friday night and watch our hitters. Pull side Roll over ground balls and lazy pop flies. Everything I've been saying about our "around the body" swings we have. That's what you get when you swing like we do. I'll say it again, either our coaches are not teaching proper hitting, or our players are not listening to the coaches and doing their own thing. It's one of the two because our swings are complete shit.

[RAYn_Man]

HUNTER RENFROE NEVER WENT TO THE CAPE. And there is not much teaching going on in summer leagues. It is more of just showing up and playing baseball in front of scouts or to just get innings/ABs.

[RossDawg82]

You are basically contradicting everything you said about not blaming Cohen and proving everyone else's point that Cohen ball doesn't work. He had 2 players that carried the lineup last year. Renfroe and Frazier. Without those two, you see what we have. A bunch of guys that can't hit the broad side of a barn.

Bunting needs to be banned from this team. Not because it gives away outs, but because our GD hitters don't know how to do it properly. Never seen such a collective group of shitty bunters. The bat is never out in front of the plate, they rarely "catch" the ball with the bat and they are moving all over the GD place as the ball is coming. Bunting is fairly simple. Bat out front of plate, knees bent, knob or handle pointed to opposite base you are wanting to burn toward. You bend with knees to bunt the ball, not stab at it like our hitters. This falls squarely on whoever is responsible for coaching hitting, whoever that may be.

I'm not going to start on our swings, if you can call them swings. The only two we've seen under Cohen with good mechanics are Frazier and Renfroe, and anyone with baseball knowledge can see that they learned their hitting during their summer leagues. It's no coincidence that Hunters avg and power numbers skyrocketed that summer in the cape. Some small adjustments can make a world of difference and the coaches up there "teach hitting".

This isn't the first time I've brought this up. It was excruciatingly painful to sit there Friday night and watch our hitters. Pull side Roll over ground balls and lazy pop flies. Everything I've been saying about our "around the body" swings we have. That's what you get when you swing like we do. I'll say it again, either our coaches are not teaching proper hitting, or our players are not listening to the coaches and doing their own thing. It's one of the two because our swings are complete shit.

No I said he was our hitter that intimidated other pitchers along with Frazier. We could count on them getting key hits when we needed it. I think we have a good team with a great coach. In almost all of our games (excluding yesterday) Cohen has had us in a position to win if we can get the key hits. We haven't gotten those hits much this year. We also have a fairly young team. Give these kids a chance and I bet next year you will sing a much different tune. I would rather play Cohen ball and make it to Omaha then play Bianco ball (meaning hit 50 HR's a year and lose in the regionals or supers)

[SallyStansbury]

We went to a bowl game last year.
We often ran Perkins up the middle.

Conclusion: We went to a bowl game because we ran Perkins up the middle often.


This is a very funny post. I laughed.

[jimbo352]

1. It was an analogy with correlation/causation. The ANALOGY fits. Hank Williams Jr. wasn't comparing Obama to Hitler.

2. You always include the bunt in your "balanced approach" sentence but it's just not like the others. Sac bunting doesn't take advantage of speed OR play into strengths. Its not "stealing, bunting, hit and running"? Its "stealing and hit and running". If you mean drag bunting then thats 100% different and we all know that. Its not ALL bunting that we don't like. Its squaring around and GUARANTEEING an out moving ONE runner up. Its always been that? for years now?. but we have to spell it out every.damn.time.

I can think of one situation were I'm okay with this, and it never happens before the bottom of the 9th...