How Many 5*s for Dayton and Wisconsin?

[engie]

Contributors tonight:

Dayton:
STARTERS PTS CLASS Ranking(Rivals)
Matt Kavanaugh 10 rsSR 3*
Devin Oliver 12 SR 2*
Dyshawn Pierre 6 SO N/R
Khari Price 2 SO N/R
Jordan Sibert 18 rsJR 4* transfer from Ohio St
BENCH PTS
Devon Scott 6 SO 3*
Jalen Robinson 4 SO 3*
Kendall Pollard 12 FR 3*
Vee Sanford 4 SR 3* transfer from Georgetown
Kyle Davis 3 FR 3*
Scoochie Smith 5 FR 4*

Wisky:
STARTERS PTS CLASS Ranking(Rivals -- since 24/7 hasn't been around)
Frank Kaminsky 19 JR 3*
Sam Dekker 7 SO 5* from Wisconsin
Josh Gasser 4 rsJR 3*
Ben Brust 14 SR 3*
Traevon Jackson 7 JR 3*
BENCH PTS
Duje Dukan 5 rsJR 3*
Nigel Hayes 10 FR 3*
Bronson Koenig 3 FR 4*

1 5* So starter and 1 4* Fr limited backup for Wisconsin
1 4* rsJR transfer starter and 1 4* Fr limited backup for Dayton

Common thread? Carried by a bunch of battle-tested upperclassmen -- and complemented by underclassmen. Average starter experience on those teams:
Dayton: 3.4 years
Wisconsin: 3.2 years

[tcdog70]

High basketball IQ , people that can shoot and defend. Really good Coaching.

[Dawg61]

How many stars do their coaches get? HC and assistants. What's the basketball environment at those two schools like? Do they place basketball #3 in the pecking order?

[esplanade91]

Stars in basketball are even more stupid than stars in football. Outside of the ESPN top 5 it's a crapshoot.

ETA: 2013 Rookie of the Year.

[engie]

Stars in basketball are even more stupid than stars in football. Outside of the ESPN top 5 it's a crapshoot.

No. They are perfect and mean everything. You can predict exactly what teams are going to be by the number of stars attached to recruits' names, even though none of these "scouts" ever saw them play a single game in person. And if you aren't chock full of 5*s and 4*s, you have no chance of success...

**

[HailState39110]

Dayton has (2)4* . Wisky (1 )4* and (1) 5*

We have no 4 or 5 stars . If anything this tells me Ray needs to recruit a couple of 4/5 stars on our roster if we want to make the dance

[smootness]

Ware was a 4-star.

[MSUTTT1]

Bo Ryan is an excellent coach and has had the Badgers in the big dance every year he has been there....let that sink in.

www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/bo-ryan-1.html

[engie]

Bo Ryan is an excellent coach and has had the Badgers in the big dance every year he has been there....let that sink in.

He recruits very, VERY few 4*s and 5*s... That means he has no chance at real success**

[ScoobaDawg]

Did either of these teams ever have a 13 game conference losing streak?

Ray has next year to make progress and I hope he does. He is a good fundamental coach that has had a major rebuilding job with the disaster he walked into.
But It's been hard to have an interest in a coach who was not the best candidate for the job but was the best fit for what the current administration was looking for.
especially when he buts up the results he has.

I'll never root for a MSU Coach to fail (well minus the Crooms last Egg Bowl) but he hasn't given me any reason to believe he can succeed yet.
and I liked Rick a lot as a person but the closer I got with his teams during my time at State, he needed to be forced out. So in no way did I want him to stay

[MarketingBully01]

13 game losing streaks in both seasons he was head coach. In fact with the way we started, you would have had to have a catastrophic collapse to finish the way we did. If he had gotten to 16-17 wins with no streak like that, no one would be having to defend him because no one would be complaining and we would see everyone's vision that things are looking better. But a 13 game losing streak in one of the worst conferences out there will bring with it their skeptics.

[Raytoraid83]

He recruits very, VERY few 4*s and 5*s... That means he has no chance at real success**

LOL

[KB21]

Bo Ryan is an excellent coach and has had the Badgers in the big dance every year he has been there....let that sink in.

www.sports-reference.com/cbb/coaches/bo-ryan-1.html

Big 10 coaches are in general better basketball coaches than SEC basketball coaches, IMO. Guys like Bo Ryan, Matt Painter, and Tom Izzo recruit to their systems. They do a great job at developing the players they get. They don't go after many guys who are one and done in college.

Compare that to John Calapari, who recruits the stars but does so only because he can't develop a player worth a damn. His x's and o's basketball coaching also sucks, and he needs 5 athletes to put on the floor just to make things work.

I personaly am glad that we have someone that was on Matt Painter's staff at Purdue as our coach.

[chef dixon]

This argument goes against you just as much as you may think it helps. Saying stars don't matter just throws us into a pile of 100 schools that recruit a bunch of 3 stars with the occasional 4 and hoping we emerge from this group as one of the few teams that wins big and makes deep tournament runs. Pointing our Wisconsin and Dayton success is merely just to give us the slightest bit of hope, but in reality they represent a very small portion of teams recruiting on that "star" level. I guess my point is a lot more goes into success than stars.

[KB21]

Here's what I think most of you who are on Ray's case do not understand. Games are won and lost due to the players on the court. There is only so much a coach can control when it comes to the game. He can draw up the best play in the right situation, but if the players don't execute the play, it won't work.

I'm not sure there was a worse situation for a coach to walk into than the one Rick Ray inherited at Mississippi State given the dumpster fire that Rick Stansbury left behind. The only one that is close and may actually have been worse was what Scott Drew went into at Baylor. Guess what. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season till his 5th year at Baylor. When he got the program built back up and started getting the players, Baylor started winning. Scott Drew is a heck of a coach, but coaches can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Situations like this take time to recover from. This is why an established mid major coach did not want this job. They knew it would be a while before this team could win, and they weren't going to risk their careers by taking on this dumpster fire.

[MarketingBully01]

Really? You are comparing this situation to Baylor? It's bad enough people comparing this situation to the one at Indiana but let's go a step further. All I know whatever he does next year, it will be interesting to see how the boards and factions shake out. Should be entertaining for Coach, Dawgstudent, Paul, and Gene.

[engie]

I guess my point is a lot more goes into success than stars.

Which is my point exactly.

You almost never see a young team go deep into March, sans a UK team that's basically an NBA team talent-wise. There are a handful of powerhouses that can go regardless of the makeup of their roster -- but in general -- age/experience > stars.

The common thread among those two teams are that they are veteran, battle-tested squads that are led by players have played together for a long time. If you look at the teams that make it even to the round of 32, they are almost always veteran teams full of juniors and seniors. Hell, even for the ones that make the tournament, that's generally true...

[tcdog70]

Big 10 coaches are in general better basketball coaches than SEC basketball coaches, IMO. Guys like Bo Ryan, Matt Painter, and Tom Izzo recruit to their systems. They do a great job at developing the players they get. They don't go after many guys who are one and done in college.

Compare that to John Calapari, who recruits the stars but does so only because he can't develop a player worth a damn. His x's and o's basketball coaching also sucks, and he needs 5 athletes to put on the floor just to make things work.

I personaly am glad that we have someone that was on Matt Painter's staff at Purdue as our coach.

and you loved Ron Polk two and wanted Tommy Raffo and railed against John Cohen--so please tell me why we should we believe you might know what the **** you are talking about.

[Raytoraid83]

Here's what I think most of you who are on Ray's case do not understand. Games are won and lost due to the players on the court. There is only so much a coach can control when it comes to the game. He can draw up the best play in the right situation, but if the players don't execute the play, it won't work.

I'm not sure there was a worse situation for a coach to walk into than the one Rick Ray inherited at Mississippi State given the dumpster fire that Rick Stansbury left behind. The only one that is close and may actually have been worse was what Scott Drew went into at Baylor. Guess what. Scott Drew didn't have a winning season till his 5th year at Baylor. When he got the program built back up and started getting the players, Baylor started winning. Scott Drew is a heck of a coach, but coaches can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

Situations like this take time to recover from. This is why an established mid major coach did not want this job. They knew it would be a while before this team could win, and they weren't going to risk their careers by taking on this dumpster fire.

Scott Drew is a great recruiter. Not a good X's and O's guy.

[chef dixon]

Which is my point exactly.

You almost never see a young team go deep into March, sans a UK team that's basically an NBA team talent-wise. There are a handful of powerhouses that can go regardless of the makeup of their roster -- but in general -- age/experience > stars.

The common thread among those two teams are that they are veteran, battle-tested squads that are led by players have played together for a long time. If you look at the teams that make it even to the round of 32, they are almost always veteran teams full of juniors and seniors. Hell, even for the ones that make the tournament, that's generally true...

Starting next year our team is suddenly not young anymore, so I hope it translates well for us. I'd bet we have the most returning career minutes in the conference next year, if not damn near close. I'm ok with saying stars in recruiting doesn't matter, but we've got miles to go to be on the level of a team like Wisconsin regardless of recruiting similarities. A good chunk of this has to be on the coach. I'm willing for wait since Ray has been given an unfair hand, but next year goes a long way in swaying my opinion in either direction given an experienced roster and a chance to see a number of recruits he's directly responsible for.

[MarketingBully01]

Starting next year our team is suddenly not young anymore, so I hope it translates well for us. I'd bet we have the most returning career minutes in the conference next year, if not damn near close. I'm ok with saying stars in recruiting doesn't matter, but we've got miles to go to be on the level of a team like Wisconsin regardless of recruiting similarities. A good chunk of this has to be on the coach. I'm willing for wait since Ray has been given an unfair hand, but next year goes a long way in swaying my opinion in either direction given an experienced roster and a chance to see a number of recruits he's directly responsible for.

There is nothing we can do but wait . Nothing we say or do will get rid of the coach. It seems a lot of the on the fencers will use next year as the measuring stick. I hope me and all of the naysayers are wrong and that Ray is the guy. If he isn't, our basketball program will go into oblivion because he will get four years. And after next year if we see similar results as the first two years, everyone will be screaming to get rid of him. I would definitely rather Smoot, Engie, and Coach be right and gloat personally .

[MadDawg]

There is nothing we can do but wait . Nothing we say or do will get rid of the coach. It seems a lot of the on the fencers will use next year as the measuring stick. I hope me and all of the naysayers are wrong and that Ray is the guy. If he isn't, our basketball program will go into oblivion because he will get four years. And after next year if we see similar results as the first two years, everyone will be screaming to get rid of him. I would definitely rather Smoot, Engie, and Coach be right and gloat personally .

If you are a Mississippi State fan you damn well better be pulling for Ray to come around. Otherwise, we are looking at the '18-'19 season before we will have any real expectations.

[MarketingBully01]

That's what I said. I don't want to see us fail. Nothing in that message said anything otherwise.

[smootness]

Starting next year our team is suddenly not young anymore, so I hope it translates well for us. I'd bet we have the most returning career minutes in the conference next year, if not damn near close. I'm ok with saying stars in recruiting doesn't matter, but we've got miles to go to be on the level of a team like Wisconsin regardless of recruiting similarities. A good chunk of this has to be on the coach. I'm willing for wait since Ray has been given an unfair hand, but next year goes a long way in swaying my opinion in either direction given an experienced roster and a chance to see a number of recruits he's directly responsible for.

I agree with essentially all of this.

This year, Ray had basically one player playing for us that he himself picked out and decided he wanted to have on his team. Next year, he should have at least 6. And we will have a lot of juniors on next year's roster. If we're still a joke, everyone will be off the bandwagon.

[MadDawg]

That's what I said. I don't want to see us fail. Nothing in that message said anything otherwise.

I was agreeing with you MarketingBully. I guess I should have started my post with this:

"I agree completely, MarketingBully01. If you are a Mississippi State fan you damn well ......... "

[engie]

Starting next year our team is suddenly not young anymore, so I hope it translates well for us. I'd bet we have the most returning career minutes in the conference next year, if not damn near close. I'm ok with saying stars in recruiting doesn't matter, but we've got miles to go to be on the level of a team like Wisconsin regardless of recruiting similarities. A good chunk of this has to be on the coach. I'm willing for wait since Ray has been given an unfair hand, but next year goes a long way in swaying my opinion in either direction given an experienced roster and a chance to see a number of recruits he's directly responsible for.

Agreed on all of this.

The "talent problem" people are seeing with us IMO is more of a "youth" problem. 4/5th of the starting 5 are capable of being good/very good SEC basketball players, and we haven't seen the projected 5th play yet. In a normal situation, those guys would be playing limited, back-up minutes in their first 2 years and learning under a good group of upperclassmen -- then taking the mantle their 2nd-3rd year when they are developed and ready. Unfortunately, they weren't permitted that luxury this time -- and they had to play WELL before they were ready. What we saw is what we got from that. But we'll see rewards from it beginning next year...

My argument is that a large percentage of our fanbase looks at the way Stansbury did it or the Kentucky model and think that's what we have to follow to win -- while ignoring the Dayton, Wisconsin, etc model that's equally as effective -- and probably more logically maintainable at MSU...

[SouthMsDawg]

Serious question....

How many players off our current team could fit in and play in the system that Bo Ryan runs that involves lots of passing and patience on offense and not forcing the ball as well as tough as nails half court man to man? Coach Ryan pulls a player every time they miss a blockout or turn the ball over (Wisconsin averaged less than 8 Turnovers as a TEAM this season lowest in the nation) We averaged a little over 14. Wisconsin also shoots FTs at over 75% as a team (we shot 66%)

Ryan stresses thinks like turnovers, rebounding and free throw shooting and takes advantage of them when playing more athletic teams.


Not many


Wisconsin doesn't win with star players (like Kentucky) they win with their system, coaching and being fundamentally sound. The fact that they have some mature guys like Kaminsky, Brust, and Gasser who give them leadership also helps with the younger athletic players like Jackson, Dekker and Hayes.


There's a reason that Bo Ryan doesn't recruit 5 and 4 star guys from Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit etc and its not b/c they aren't really good players, but because he doesn't fell that they are a good fit for his program. Very similar to Bobby Knight when he coached at Indiana. It takes a special type of player to play for Ryan in his system at Wisconsin.

[Schultzy]

There is nothing we can do but wait . Nothing we say or do will get rid of the coach. It seems a lot of the on the fencers will use next year as the measuring stick. I hope me and all of the naysayers are wrong and that Ray is the guy. If he isn't, our basketball program will go into oblivion because he will get four years. And after next year if we see similar results as the first two years, everyone will be screaming to get rid of him. I would definitely rather Smoot, Engie, and Coach be right and gloat personally .
Oblivion is what Rick Ray inherited. We are not in the Kentucky class of program and it will take us longer than them to climb out of it.
Ray will have to improve the program steadily from here on out and it's going to take him recruiting well to do it. Hopefully we will show some of that next year and build on it.

I just think people have a false idea of how long it takes to rebuild combined with a short memory of how bad it was when he got here or a lack of appreciation for how bad of a program he inherited.

I hope he makes it but it's gonna take more height in the back court than he's recruited so far. It doesn't matter if you can shoot if you can't get a shot off in conference play. Maybe some of these first year players can get us going in the right direction next year.

[Dawg61]

Compare that to John Calapari, who recruits the stars but does so only because he can't develop a player worth a damn. His x's and o's basketball coaching also sucks, and he needs 5 athletes to put on the floor just to make things work.

What? You couldn't be anymore wrong. A strong argument could be made that Cal develops players better and faster than any other coach in college basketball right now. He gets one year to do it and a NC and currently playing in the Sweet 16 backs that up. The Kentucky team playing tonight is much much better than the one at the beginning of THIS season. That's light speed development. Granted the players are more talented athletically than anyone else is getting but COME ON MAN!

[Coach34]

. I would definitely rather Smoot, Engie, and Coach be right and gloat personally .

I sure enjoyed it after the Egg Bowl...even though I went easy on everyone

[Dog316]

13 game losing streaks in both seasons he was head coach. In fact with the way we started, you would have had to have a catastrophic collapse to finish the way we did. If he had gotten to 16-17 wins with no streak like that, no one would be having to defend him because no one would be complaining and we would see everyone's vision that things are looking better. But a 13 game losing streak in one of the worst conferences out there will bring with it their skeptics.

^^^^

Well, at least we are no longer being embarrassed!

[Schultzy]

Here's a defense. He took over the shittiest situation in major college basketball with the dumbest fans to boot.

That's difficult to overcome.

[MarketingBully01]

Here's a defense. He took over the shittiest situation in major college basketball with the dumbest fans to boot.

That's difficult to overcome.

Whatever, just give it a rest....

[MarketingBully01]

Here's a defense. He took over the shittiest situation in major college basketball with the dumbest fans to boot.

That's difficult to overcome.

I always love when people say stuff like this. Since you are a fan of Mississippi State, you just called yourself dumb as well...

[Political Hack]

first of all, the star system in basketball is a bigger joke than it is in football. Chris Jones was a 2 star 7 months before he signed. They miss on kids.

Secondly, how many five stars did Dayton play against in their conference? Wisconsin? And did Wisconsin win their conference championship? Or was that a Michigan vs Mich State battle?

let's see how Dayton survives against an SEC school that does recruit five stars... game time.

[Political Hack]

The Dayton Three Stars are getting pounded by the Florida Five Stars right now.

[Political Hack]

stars win.

[Schultzy]

I always love when people say stuff like this. Since you are a fan of Mississippi State, you just called yourself dumb as well...

I'm smart enough to know it would take more than two seasons to recover from the place this program was at when coach Ray took over.

There's a time to be patient and a time to complain. Considering the starting point this staff began with, the hell raising started way too soon.

Reasonable people can disagree on the time frame but under the circumstances, year two is way too soon.

[Political Hack]

losing in year two didn't cause people to start complaining, losing 13 in a row in year two caused people to start complaining. No excuse for being the worst.

[Coach34]

Year 3 will answer alot of questions

[MarketingBully01]

I'm smart enough to know it would take more than two seasons to recover from the place this program was at when coach Ray took over.

There's a time to be patient and a time to complain. Considering the starting point this staff began with, the hell raising started way too soon.

Reasonable people can disagree on the time frame but under the circumstances, year two is way too soon.

I was on board until we absolutely collapsed and tied our school record 13 game losing streak this year. You do realize we were at one point 13-6. You have to try really hard to get to 14-19 from that point. I understand he needs time and all of that. Heck, in this thread I am even saying I want Smoot, Engie, and Coach to be right. Does that sound like someone who has given up totally on Ray?

[Coach34]

and the stars get sent packing in Game 2

[MarketingBully01]

LOL, good one Coach.