Chat with Scott Stricklin

[slickdawg]

Wednesday March 26, 2014
10:03


Scott Stricklin:
Good morning!
10:04


Comment From Mike Richey
I'll be here, as well, if anyone has questions.
10:04


Scott Stricklin:
Thanks for joining us, Mike.
10:04


Comment From Steven
Scott, where are y'all with reseating? How long will it take?
10:05


Scott Stricklin:
Mike Richey from the Bulldog Club is joining us, and he's going to take your question, Steven.
10:05


Mike Richey:
Hey Steven. We are working on the club spaces now and should be starting the main grandstand areas second week of April. It looks like the schedule will take us through late-May.
10:06


Comment From Dr Jim Jones
are any of seats in Scoreboard Club partially obstructed by guardrails etc
10:07


Scott Stricklin:
No, Dr. Jim. All Scoreboard Club seats have clear and unobstructed views. Really good views, in fact.
10:07


Comment From John
What was the renewal rate on season football tickets this year? Does it look like we will sell out all available season tickets?
10:08


Scott Stricklin:
We expect to be in the 95% range or so on renewals, which has been fairly consistent the last few years. Of course, we have more inventory to sell this year, so we won't have a good feel for where we are until after the seat selection process is complete.
10:08


Comment From Bill
Is there going to be a chart for the west side or is it going to be done by phone like the club level?
10:10


Mike Richey:
Hey, Bill. There will be a chart that will be linked to the seats 3D model. If you haven't checked that out yet, please do so. http://www.seats3d.com/ncaa...
10:10


Comment From Mark M.
I'm very excited for our women's basketball team in the NIT. Do we get compensation for hosting?
10:11


Scott Stricklin:
Ladies are playing well. Fun win the other night over USM.

We don't make any money on hosting the WNIT ... it's simply a good postseason opportunity for our young club.
10:11


Scott Stricklin:
Hope everyone will be able to join us Thursday night for round 3 vs. Auburn. 7 p.m. tip at The Hump
10:13


Comment From Basketball jones
Are you proud of your rick ray hire?
10:13


Scott Stricklin:
Absolutely. Hard worker, organized, tough and smart. The roster will begin to look like it should next year with more depth, experience and leadership. Kids consistently play hard for him.
10:14


Mike Richey:
Liam...if you sit in the F/S section there is no commitment associated. If you purchase tickets at the F/S rate and choose a priority area, your commitment is determined by the area you choose.
10:14


Comment From Liam
Mike - I received an email about staff tickets opening up. What level of commitment is needed for those?
10:17


Comment From john
Why do most sec schools hire head coaches and we hire assistant coaches
10:17


Scott Stricklin:
Mostly for financial reasons. Hiring sitting head coaches costs a premium, and we want to be as efficient and smart as possible with the resources Bulldog fans provide us.

There is little evidence to suggest that someone's previous title is an indicator for how successful they will be going forward. We have had success hiring assistants who were prepared to be head coaches (i.e. Dan Mullen, Vann Stuedeman, Vic Schaefer).
10:19


Comment From Meo
Did we need a new video board at The Hump? Renderings look good, just curious if the previous was faulty or too old
10:20


Scott Stricklin:
The lifespan of the current board (about 10 years) was pretty much exhausted. In fact, there were games this year where one side (facing students) didn't work properly. The new HD board will be a welcomed upgrade.
10:20


Comment From John
Will there be an interactive site that will be updated with seats that have been chosen on a daily basis? This would be helpful tool for ticket holders in the days leading up to their appointed selection time.
10:21


Mike Richey:
Thanks, John. Yes there will be an interactive chart and you will be able to see what is taken and what is available. It will be based on our seats 3D model and will also include a video tutorial that shows how the seat selection process will work for those selecting online. http://www.seats3d.com/ncaa...
10:22


Comment From Dr. Evil
I've heard that plans for Dudy Noble are expected to be released in spring or summer. Are the new signage and brick backstop the "changes" we've heard about?
10:22


Scott Stricklin:
No timetable has been announced for when the Dudy Noble Field/Polk-Dement Stadium renderings will be made public, but I would hope it could be in the next few months.

The new signage and brick backstop your'e referring to is independent of the work being done by our design team.

(BTW, I'm a fan of both the brick and the signage. Dresses the place up a bit)
10:23


Comment From Woody
What is the time frame for the rest of the seat selection process?
10:24


Mike Richey:
Woody...we will set the times and send them out next week. Our intention is to have times out a week prior to the first selection time in order for people to research the consider seat locations and adjust their schedule.
10:24


Comment From Dr Jim Jones
how accessible is East Grandstand to Scoreboard Club for gathering at halftime
10:24


Scott Stricklin:
The Scoreboard Club Terrace will only be accessible by Scoreboard Club ticketholders.
10:25


Comment From Guest
When is the cut off date to order parking passes? Can I request an area close to where my tailgate group meets?
10:25


Mike Richey:
We can take a request for a parking pass and the location now but parking passes have been sold out and we have been selling a pre-paid pass that it is good for all game day pay lots on campus.
10:26


Comment From Ronald
What are the odds we can still host a regional in baseball? Those crowds this weekend for a regular season series have to make us an attractive option
10:26


Scott Stricklin:
These days, baseball regional hosting has more to do with how your team finishes than attendance. But, you're right, the crowds last weekend at DNF were phenomenal! And the bigger the crowds are, the better chance our team has to put themselves in a position to host come late May/early June.
10:28


Comment From John
How many Gridiron Club memberships have been purchased to date?
10:28


Mike Richey:
We have sold over 300 Gridiron memberships out and have 750 available.
10:28


Comment From Brandon
Has the vendor for the new Davis Wade north endzone video board been selected yet? Know existing came from Capturion Network Inc. and new Hump one from DakTronics.
10:29


Scott Stricklin:
Football board is being installed by Capturion. Steel supports should begin going up in next few weeks.
10:29


Comment From john
We are Mississippi State university not farm bureau university mr stricklin
10:29


Scott Stricklin:
You are correct.
10:29


Mike Richey:
Andrew...we haven't set the price yet and the limit will vary depending on the opponent. We are excited about getting student ticketing online and having guest tickets available.
10:30


Comment From Andrew
With the announcement of student guest tickets, how much will those be? And is there a limit to how many are sold per game?
10:31


Comment From Chip
You've said construction on the new end zone is on schedule. Where does that mean we are now? Will we able to see it for SBW?
10:31


Scott Stricklin:
Chip - stadium construction will be completed in August, although most of the work will wrapped up by July. You'll see quite a bit of progress at the spring game though.
10:32


Comment From D. Brown
Can you give an update on the proposed renovation of the tennis and softball facilities?
10:33


Scott Stricklin:
Still no timetable. At this point, it's a mater of identifying funding. We've raised about the half the $6M required for the project.
10:33


Comment From Guest
How serious is the administration about keeping left field lounge intact in the future?
10:34


Scott Stricklin:
Very serious. As far as I'm concerned, the Left Field Lounge will always be a part of Mississippi State baseball. IMO, It's an important part of what makes Bulldog baseball special.
10:34


Comment From Adam
When do parking passes for next year's baseball season need to be requested? I called in December or January this year and they were already gone.
10:34


Mike Richey:
Adam, you can request a parking pass for baseball when you renew your tickets. However, we have an extremely limited amount of reserved parking for baseball and it is sold out. Outside of the reserved RV parking and the in-out passes for those in the left field lounge we are only using only the Palmeiro lot for reserved passes. Everything else on campus is open parking.
10:36


Comment From Dr Jim Jones
will the upper rows in Scoreboard Club have problems with noise level from Video board
10:37


Mike Richey:
There are no speakers in the north end zone scoreboard they will be in the south as they have been.
10:37


Comment From John
Scott, what are the chances that the SEC goes to a 9-game SEC football schedule in the near future?
10:37


Scott Stricklin:
Hard to speculate about what might happen in the future, but I've not heard much support for a nine-game SEC schedule among current ADs.
10:39


Comment From Clint
Approximately how many donors will have been seated after the initial group of club level and scoreboards are done this week?
10:39


Mike Richey:
Thanks, Clint. There are just over 400 accounts with Club Level seats on the east and Just over 250 in the Scoreboard Club. They are only selecting their Club seats this week. If they have additional seats in the stadium, they will select those in rank order later in the process.
10:39


Comment From Donald
Are there plans to eventually install ribbon boards in the hump similar to what we have in DWS? Those really seem to enhance the gameday atmosphere.
10:39


Scott Stricklin:
Donald, in addition to the new video board going up this offseason, you can expect to see additional digital signage in the Hump in the next year or two.
10:42


Comment From AC
I know there was talk of installing a new sound system throughout Davis Wade Stadium, much like there is now at Dudy Noble Field. Is this still in the plans?
10:43


Scott Stricklin:
In my opinion, a distributed sound system at Davis Wade needs to happen. Right now it's a matter of seeing how the current system performs in the completed expansion, then, if a change is needed, determining where that project fits among funding priorities.
10:43


Comment From David
Has the reaction to the reseating process been mostly positive? Any negative reaction from long-time donors worried about losing their seats?
10:43


Mike Richey:
Thanks, David. We have had both. But, with so many new seating options, we have had more positive than negative.
10:43


Comment From Jacob
With construction continuing on the north end of the west side of DWS (north elevator), will the west side be open for spring game seating? Can't wait for SBW to get here!
10:43


Scott Stricklin:
Both west and east side stands will be open for the Maroon-White game this year.
10:45


Comment From brewer13
What are the dimensions of the new DWS video board?
10:45


Scott Stricklin:
New board on north end of the stadium will be 112-feet wide by 48 feet high ... same size as the current board on the south end.
10:45


Comment From David
Why were football parking passes not "reseated" this year based on BC priority? Will that be done next year?
10:45


Mike Richey:
Football parking passes are re-assigned each year based on priority. We typically do that later in the spring or early summer because there are often changes in the lots available based on other projects happening on campus. For example, with the construction of the new dining hall on the south end of campus we will have less spots available in Lot 13.
10:46


Comment From D. Brown
Scott, how can we get you to come out to Denver, CO for one of the meetings of the Rocky Mountain Chapter of the MSU Alumni Association. We would love to get you out here!
10:46


Scott Stricklin:
D. Brown - All I need is an invite. Email me details and I'll find a date to be there!
10:47


Comment From David
With the SEC network coming online here soon, we know that the lesser seen sports will be getting more airtime. Will there be any opportunities for the non-NCAA club sports to get some air time as well? I know lacrosse, ultimate, and rugby have large club organizations across the nation, and especially at SEC schools.
10:47


Scott Stricklin:
David - The SEC Network will feature varsity sports for the 14 league schools. You are correct in that club sports are very popular across our campuses, but at the current time there are no plans to highlight them on the Network.
10:47


Scott Stricklin:
Speaking of the SEC Network, don't forget to sign up at www.GetSECNetwork.com
10:48


Scott Stricklin:
Thanks for all of the questions. You guys ask good ones. Hope to see you on campus for women's basketball and baseball this week, and of course for Super Bulldog Weekend April 11-13. Hail State!

[smootness]

People are going to go crazy over him saying we go after assistant coaches for 'financial' reasons. But he's right - there's no indication that being a HC previously makes you a better candidate for a HC job now, and hiring assistants who you believe are good candidates is a way we can make up some ground on the other schools in the conference in other areas.

But people are going to claim he just admitted he hires on the cheap solely for finances. I wish he had just said, 'We hire the best candidate for the job, we don't care if he was a HC or AC previously,' to save himself from grief over it.

[War Machine Dawg]

LT 2.0. We're so ****ed.

[esplanade91]

Wish someone would ask him point blank about MSU-A&M branding, specifically jerseys.

The comment about hiring assistants for financial purposes was chicken shit. I'm ok with hiring assistants, that's not the issue here. But that's a ridiculous comment considering mid-major HC's make 1/4 what Ray does. USM's coach is 1000000x the coach Ray is and he makes a hair over $200,000. Ray made $1,000,000 out of the gate.

[TrueMaroon]

People are going to go crazy over him saying we go after assistant coaches for 'financial' reasons. But he's right - there's no indication that being a HC previously makes you a better candidate for a HC job now, and hiring assistants who you believe are good candidates is a way we can make up some ground on the other schools in the conference in other areas.

But people are going to claim he just admitted he hires on the cheap solely for finances. I wish he had just said, 'We hire the best candidate for the job, we don't care if he was a HC or AC previously,' to save himself from grief over it.

It was the wrong answer. Further proves the working theory that SS doesn't have the Shark mentality. He's a yes man. And that answer contradicts his other statements about how a coach will never get hired away because of more money. So we have the money to keep coaches, but we don't have it to hire them? Doesn't add up.

Hiring assistants looks bush league.

[thunderclap]

LT 2.0. We're so ****ed.

Sadly, I see far more of LT in SS than there is of GB.

[HailState39110]

Lol. So which one of you is basketball Jones? That comment about hiring assistants for financial reasons really does strike a nerve with me too. There are successful head coaches in the Sun Belt, CUSA, Horizon, Missouri Valley etc that we can afford. it's just identifying the right one

South Carolina hires Frank Martin, Auburn hires Bruce Pearl, Virginia Tech hires Buzz Williams. Marquette is about to hire Ben Howland or Shaka Smart. We hire Rick Ray

[MarketingBully01]

It was the wrong answer. Further proves the working theory that SS doesn't have the Shark mentality. He's a yes man. And that answer contradicts his other statements about how a coach will never get hired away because of more money. So we have the money to keep coaches, but we don't have it to hire them? Doesn't add up.

Hiring assistants looks bush league.

Yep and was a dumb ass answer. I don't want him making the next basketball hire. You really hope like heck Ray works out with this nimrod leading our AD. Loafers bet the farm on him and if he has a shitty year next year only Smoot will support him.

[quickstrike2]

He definitely answered that wrong. Don't come right out and say, well we aren't going to spend the money to get a proven HC. I don't have an issue with hiring an assistant, but i would prefer it be an assistant with some relevance. Mullen was a solid coach on a team that had won a title and he had coached several top notch NCAA qbs.

[esplanade91]

Exactly. He equated Ray to a couple of assistants we've hired who were in line to become head coaches either here or somewhere else. Ray was a career assistant. Does he think we're dumb enough to let that squeeze by without noticing it? Or is he dumb enough to believe that Ray was on the same page as those guys?

[War Machine Dawg]

Sadly, I see far more of LT in SS than there is of GB.

Anyone who denies it isn't looking. At first I was excited about Strick, but now I'm scared as shit of him. Since he's "one of us," I'm afraid we're stuck with him regardless of how much he sucks at his job. Keepin' us off probation and in the black! *sigh*

[MarketingBully01]

Exactly. He equated Ray to a couple of assistants we've hired who were in line to become head coaches either here or somewhere else. Ray was a career assistant. Does he think we're dumb enough to let that squeeze by without noticing it? Or is he dumb enough to believe that Ray was on the same page as those guys?

Notice how he didn't include Ray among those assistants he named. Kind of telling isn't it.

[M.Fillmore]

Even if Ray turns out to be a great coach, that was a terrible answer. It makes him come off looking like LT.

SS is young and perhaps he will grow into the job. However, for SS and Keenum to keep a HS football coach in charge of compliance instead of hiring an attorney off the NCAA staff smacks of LT and Charles Lee. So we may be in trouble at the top for decades.

[HailState39110]

Exactly. He equated Ray to a couple of assistants we've hired who were in line to become head coaches either here or somewhere else. Ray was a career assistant. Does he think we're dumb enough to let that squeeze by without noticing it? Or is he dumb enough to believe that Ray was on the same page as those guys?

I agree . You can't compare Mullen and Ray. Mullen was coming off a national title with a Heisman winning QB and experience of coaching in the SEC. Ray was a number two assistant at Purdue ( behind Quanzo Martin) then was on the staff of a mediocre ACC team that stormed the court last night after getting to the semis of the NIT

[MarketingBully01]

He is LT. No doubt about it. His demeanor and everything else points in that direction. When we made him AD, there was nothing in his background that screamed he was going to be successful. He just rode on the coat tails of being Greg Byrne's right hand man. We are learning the hard way that just because he was under Greg Byrne doesn't make him Greg Byrne.

[dawg21]

This is the problem with doing things like this: the more open a person in his position is - the more ridicule he is set to receive. Everyone wants to know everything that's going on, and then bitch about the 5 things out of 100 they don't like and make comparisons to GB and LT. It just gets old.

FIRE DAN MULLEN!! GIVE DAN MULLEN A RAISE!!!! RICK STAINS SUX!!! HIRE AWESOME HEAD BB COACH WITH SHITTY PROGRAM AND NO SUPPORT!!! COHEN IS LOSING IT!!! BUILD ALL NEW STADIUMS IN 2 YEARS!!! DAMMIT STRICKLIN SUCKS!!! HE USES TWITTER AND RAISES MONEY!!! BE A NINJA!!!

[War Machine Dawg]

This is the problem with doing things like this: the more open a person in his position is - the more ridicule he is set to receive. Everyone wants to know everything that's going on, and then bitch about the 5 things out of 100 they don't like and make comparisons to GB and LT. It just gets old.

FIRE DAN MULLEN!! GIVE DAN MULLEN A RAISE!!!! RICK STAINS SUX!!! HIRE AWESOME HEAD BB COACH WITH SHITTY PROGRAM AND NO SUPPORT!!! COHEN IS LOSING IT!!! BUILD ALL NEW STADIUMS IN 2 YEARS!!! DAMMIT STRICKLIN SUCKS!!! HE USES TWITTER AND RAISES MONEY!!! BE A NINJA!!!

http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae73/MSUDawgBurke/DoubleFacepalm1_zps062726fe.jpg (http://s959.photobucket.com/user/MSUDawgBurke/media/DoubleFacepalm1_zps062726fe.jpg.html)

[slickdawg]

Listening to Bo Bounds this morning, Alabama's AD had a $20 million SURPLUS this year ($120m total). They can't spend it faster than they are making it. That's roughly a third of State and Ole Miss' entire athletic budget.

When Byrne hired Mullen, he distinctly said "we want to hire them on their way up", meaning rising stars in coaching. Not some used up has been, a youthful coach that can relate to the kids and coach well. Mullen had a losing season his first year as our head coach, and he walked in with a 75% full roster. Ray came in after an F5 had already leveled the program. He's had to clean up a lot of issues with personnel that he inherited. Next year is when I start the coaching clock with Ray, he got a two year free pass from me. The team is better, the effort is there, the depth is coming. I think 2014-15 is a chance for the NIT for Ray. The next year should be NCAA's with Ware, Thomas and Chicken all seniors.

[NCDawg]

He is LT. No doubt about it. His demeanor and everything else points in that direction. When we made him AD, there was nothing in his background that screamed he was going to be successful. He just rode on the coat tails of being Greg Byrne's right hand man. We are learning the hard way that just because he was under Greg Byrne doesn't make him Greg Byrne.

Think he was hired solely because he is Bailey Howell's son-in-law, and Dr. Keenum was impressed.

[engie]

Great answers on DNF, LFL, etc I thought...

He plays the "poor ole MSU" card too much though. Needs a swag and to act like the AD of a top 25, $100 mi athletics dept he's about to be running.

That said, his approach is smart in a fundraising perspective, which is what he does best -- it's just not confidence-inspiring like Byrne was. By pointing to "monetary" situations that actually don't exist for us, he invites and implores people to donate to those causes.

But like I said at the time -- we didn't have huge $$ to spend on basketball at the specific point that the Ray hire was made. When we make our next hire, we will have ridiculous money to throw at it -- and will go get whoever we want within reason...

[dawg21]

I just disagree SS is comparable to LT, or GB. Overall he's doing a good job. A bad fire/hire (what some consider) in BB is not a defining moment for an AD. Mal Moore of Bama screwed up a ton of hires in football, not to mention the other sports with a lot more resources and tradition, and yet he was considered a good AD. Scott is pretty open as to what is going on and involving the fanbase. When people find or hear something they don't like they just say "LT 2.0", when they are not comparable. Can you imagine LT and our current football expansion? Tweeting? Fundraising at current levels? Constantly getting the temperature of the fanbase? SS may not do anything with it but at least he "acts" like he listens.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

I dont think scott is LT 2. He cant be on fundraising alone.

[Dawg61]

If Strick insists on hiring assistants how bout Hubert Davis at UNC? He's going to be a great HC very soon.

[MarketingBully01]

I just disagree SS is comparable to LT, or GB. Overall he's doing a good job. A bad fire/hire (what some consider) in BB is not a defining moment for an AD. Mal Moore of Bama screwed up a ton of hires in football, not to mention the other sports with a lot more resources and tradition, and yet he was considered a good AD. Scott is pretty open as to what is going on and involving the fanbase. When people find or hear something they don't like they just say "LT 2.0", when they are not comparable. Can you imagine LT and our current football expansion? Tweeting? Fundraising at current levels? Constantly getting the temperature of the fanbase? SS may not do anything with it but at least he "acts" like he listens.

Mal hired Saban to save his job. Before that hire, he was on the hot seat at Alabama. Hiring Saban made him safe for life after that but his seat was most definitely hot before the Saban hire.

Scott has done some good things but one of your main jobs as an Athletic Director is to do the hiring and firing. Making a hire like that in a sport we have been competitive in for 20+ years is just plain dumb as a leader of our athletic department.

Saying what he said in the chat is equally as dumb and makes it look like if Ray doesn't work out we will go the Ray route again and I guess hope it works. It does not give me a lot of confidence that given the chance he will make a good hire after this one because it looks like he didn't learn from his mistake in the first place.

[MarketingBully01]

Listening to Bo Bounds this morning, Alabama's AD had a $20 million SURPLUS this year ($120m total). They can't spend it faster than they are making it. That's roughly a third of State and Ole Miss' entire athletic budget.

When Byrne hired Mullen, he distinctly said "we want to hire them on their way up", meaning rising stars in coaching. Not some used up has been, a youthful coach that can relate to the kids and coach well. Mullen had a losing season his first year as our head coach, and he walked in with a 75% full roster. Ray came in after an F5 had already leveled the program. He's had to clean up a lot of issues with personnel that he inherited. Next year is when I start the coaching clock with Ray, he got a two year free pass from me. The team is better, the effort is there, the depth is coming. I think 2014-15 is a chance for the NIT for Ray. The next year should be NCAA's with Ware, Thomas and Chicken all seniors.

Yes, everything is okay. It's normal to take five years to build back a basketball program. Especially when perinial doormats like USC and Auburn make hires like Frank Martin and Bruce Pearl. Yes, both programs which will make if to the NCAA tourney before we will. Yes, everything is fine nothing to see here. While we are at it, let's give Ray a 4 year pass just for the heck of it.

[smootness]

It was the wrong answer. Further proves the working theory that SS doesn't have the Shark mentality. He's a yes man. And that answer contradicts his other statements about how a coach will never get hired away because of more money. So we have the money to keep coaches, but we don't have it to hire them? Doesn't add up.

Hiring assistants looks bush league.

I just think you're reading too much into it. I don't like the phrasing he used because I knew people would run with it, but his statement here is in no way contradictory to saying no one will be hired away over money.

I don't think his overall point was that money will make all of his decisions for him. I think his point was that there is no tried and true method to picking a successful head coach - we have seen numerous 'proven' HC's not have nearly as much success at their new job; and we have seen numerous AC's or guys you've never heard of who have had success right out of the gate.

So rather than spending a lot on a guy who has no greater chance, statistically, than another guy, why not pick the guy you really think is an 'up and coming' name, who you don't have to spend a crap ton for as a tryout? Then, if the guy proves to be a great coach, you pay him to keep him.

I don't think he's saying that we can't or won't spend more than we did for someone like Ray; he's just saying that there isn't anything that says Coach X will be more successful than Rick Ray, and he obviously believes Rick Ray can get it done. So spend less on the front end and wait to see if you made the right hire before throwing crazy money at him. Just like we did with Mullen.

I don't think Stricklin is allowing his hands to be tied with money. He's just trying to use it as intelligently as we can to build the best program. Athletic departments like Florida can throw money around and go get whoever and then if he doesn't work out, oh well, they'll throw money at someone else. We can't operate in exactly the same way and have success over time.

The best chance for State to end up with a great coach, in every sport but baseball, is to get them on their way up, before their name is huge.

[Dawg61]

We could hire Scott Drew for $2 mill a year. He makes $1.8 at Baylor. Baylor just made the Sweet 16 AGAIN under Drew. His third time being there at a school that had a player get MURDERED by another player. Drew has two Elite 8s in those 3 Sweet 16's. He wanted our job when Stansbury got fired. Still haven't seen him get in trouble with the NCAA which is why everyone says no to him. I just see him destroying 3 seeds in the tournament and still playing as of today.

[MarketingBully01]

We could hire Scott Drew for $2 mill a year. He makes $1.8 at Baylor. Baylor just made the Sweet 16 AGAIN under Drew. His third time being there at a school that had a player get MURDERED by another player. Drew has two Elite 8s in those 3 Sweet 16's. He wanted our job when Stansbury got fired. Still haven't seen him get in trouble with the NCAA which is why everyone says no to him. I just see him destroying 3 seeds in the tournament and still playing as of today.

I agree Dawg61. Us not even meeting with him to this day had me perplexed. A hire that IMO would have excited the fan base and not divided it like it still is 2 years after the WTF hire today.

[smootness]

We could hire Scott Drew for $2 mill a year. He makes $1.8 at Baylor. Baylor just made the Sweet 16 AGAIN under Drew. His third time being there at a school that had a player get MURDERED by another player. Drew has two Elite 8s in those 3 Sweet 16's. He wanted our job when Stansbury got fired. Still haven't seen him get in trouble with the NCAA which is why everyone says no to him. I just see him destroying 3 seeds in the tournament and still playing as of today.

I don't know whether any of this is true or not. But I do find it hilarious that you don't realize how insane it is to constantly point to Scott Drew as a great coach while simultaneously saying that it's obvious Ray will never be a good coach.

[smootness]

I agree Dawg61. Us not even meeting with him to this day had me perplexed. A hire that IMO would have excited the fan base and not divided it like it still is 2 years after the WTF hire today.

You know what would keep the fanbase from being divided? The fans not being divided.

[MarketingBully01]

You know what would keep the fanbase from being divided? The fans not being divided.

I get it. So when our AD screws up and throws gasoline on the lighted dumpster fire, we are supposed to say nothing and just watch with glee. That makes total sense. Meanwhile our basketball program becomes completely irrelevant and stays at 14th in the SEC. Gotcha Smoot.

[C222]

Yes, everything is okay. It's normal to take five years to build back a basketball program. Especially when perinial doormats like USC and Auburn make hires like Frank Martin and Bruce Pearl. Yes, both programs which will make if to the NCAA tourney before we will. Yes, everything is fine nothing to see here. While we are at it, let's give Ray a 4 year pass just for the heck of it.

You are using Frank Martin as an example? Yeah, great choice.

[MarketingBully01]

He recruited well, that team will make the NCAA tourney before we will. They already have a signature win over Kentucky as well. USC is a horrible job. Much worse then ours so yes Martin is a good example because he will win there.

[MarketingBully01]

I don't know whether any of this is true or not. But I do find it hilarious that you don't realize how insane it is to constantly point to Scott Drew as a great coach while simultaneously saying that it's obvious Ray will never be a good coach.

Bryce Drew is a better example of Scott Drew then Rick Ray is. Scott was a head coach albeit for a year but still had head coaching experience when he took over at Baylor.

[Political Hack]

the basketball hire is his only defining moment. That said, the program was tanked... he just found a way to make it obvious that it's tanked. If it turns around in the next two years, it'll be because he had the courage to stick it out. If it doesn't, it'll be because he screwed up the coaching search and didn't fix it soon enough.

Football program is on cruise control and he almost screwed that up this year by starting talks about contingency plans.

Baseball program has a top 10 coach and is on cruise control. The only mess up there was not taking more advantage of the CWS exposure and national title series from a marketing standpoint. That's minor though...

The facilities are making progress, but 99% of that was set in stone before he came in. Getting Janet Marie Smith involved with the Dude was pretty obvious and will be successful. he will and should get credit for that. outside of ruining the LFL, which makes the dude the #1 place in America to watch a baseball game, I don't see how it could be screwed up.

All in all though, he's reaping the benefits of GB's work and the SEC's dominance. I hope he exchanges his loafers for some shit kickers soon and takes the athletic department to the next level. We've still got some glaring holes and weaknesses that haven't been addressed, with no signs of having the gonads to address them. The entire department, including his office, should get tremendous pay raises and the people who don't deserve them should be fired. We need top flight sports executives running our $100+ million company... not a list of friends and good ole boys. There's an amazing opportunity in front of us and we'll either take advantage of it, or be left in the dust.

[C222]

He recruited well, that team will make the NCAA tourney before we will. They already have a signature win over Kentucky as well. USC is a horrible job. Much worse then ours so yes Martin is a good example because he will win there.

He took over a roster that was more talented than us and he finished toward the bottom his first two years.

His 2014 class per 247 is 53rd. Better than ours but not great.

His 2015 class per 247 isn't in the top 40. Still early but we are 13th.

Why shouldn't he be fired after two shitty years?

ETA: He did get a couple of good players in his 2013 class so I will give you that.

[MarketingBully01]

He took over a roster that was more talented than us and he finished toward the bottom his first two years.

His 2014 class per 247 is 53rd. Better than ours but not great.

His 2015 class per 247 isn't in the top 40. Still early but we are 13th.

Why shouldn't he be fired after two shitty years?

ETA: He did get a couple of good players in his 2013 class so I will give you that.

Their roster was more talented? That is laughable. Sword was a 3 star, Thomas was a 3 star, and Ware was a 4 star. Those three alone had more talent then USC's roster combined. Martin took over a shittier program in shittier shape then Ray did.

Sure, Martin had more bodies but not more talent. USC is a shifty program. Dave Odem couldn't win there and Eddie Fogler had one great year there. USC is the worst job in the SEC in basketball historically and if Martin can get them to the NIT it would be a miracle. If he gets the talent he keeps getting to go there, they will make the NCAA tourney which is a huge Herculean effort IMO.

[TrueMaroon]

Great answers on DNF, LFL, etc I thought...

He plays the "poor ole MSU" card too much though. Needs a swag and to act like the AD of a top 25, $100 mi athletics dept he's about to be running.

That said, his approach is smart in a fundraising perspective, which is what he does best -- it's just not confidence-inspiring like Byrne was. By pointing to "monetary" situations that actually don't exist for us, he invites and implores people to donate to those causes.

But like I said at the time -- we didn't have huge $$ to spend on basketball at the specific point that the Ray hire was made. When we make our next hire, we will have ridiculous money to throw at it -- and will go get whoever we want within reason...

1. We're not close to that. And we wont be for the foreseeable future.

2. This is a pathetic, stupid approach. And I would tell Scott to his face. We've always been at the bottom of the conference in terms of perception. Permeating that mindset doesn't help.

3. The money was there. It absolutely was. Richard Adkerson and Dampier were waiting and willing. Those two individuals' combined net worth is north of 250 million. Getting extra money for the right guy would not have been a problem.

[Dawg61]

I don't know whether any of this is true or not. But I do find it hilarious that you don't realize how insane it is to constantly point to Scott Drew as a great coach while simultaneously saying that it's obvious Ray will never be a good coach.

You can't seriously be comparing our situation to what Scott Drew was dealt with can you? Baylor was banned from TV and wasn't allowed to play Non-conference games one year. They got put on 7 years probation and had reduced scholarships and recruiting limitations for most of that. They also had an entire team transfer after a player was MURDERED. But if this was 2006 you're correct I would not want Scott Drew for MSU. It's not though. It's 2014 and Scott Drew is playing in the Sweet 16 for the THIRD TIME now. We could have Stansbury and Ray and still not have three Sweet 16's after 48 seasons.

[engie]

1. We're not close to that. And we wont be for the foreseeable future.
Yes we are. We are staring it squarely in the face. Holla back at me in FY2015.

We're at $60-70 mil/yr now.

Stadium expansion will bring in an extra $7-10 million per overall.
New Bowl/Playoff Structure will bring in an extra $5-10 million per.
SECNetwork will bring in in excess of $20mil per for us -- and that number will likely end up going much higher.

You do the math.

[C222]

1. We're not close to that. And we wont be for the foreseeable future.

2. This is a pathetic, stupid approach. And I would tell Scott to his face. We've always been at the bottom of the conference in terms of perception. Permeating that mindset doesn't help.

3. The money was there. It absolutely was. Richard Adkerson and Dampier were waiting and willing. Those two individuals' combined net worth is north of 250 million. Getting extra money for the right guy would not have been a problem.

Adkerson, Damp, Rula etc, were pushing for KENNY PAYNE.

[engie]

3. The money was there. It absolutely was. Richard Adkerson and Dampier were waiting and willing. Those two individuals' combined net worth is north of 250 million. Getting extra money for the right guy would not have been a problem.

If that's the case, why the hell didn't we just give Shaka his $3mil per and hire him? Talk about a national coup for perception...

The real reason is because it's bullshit that the money was there... The vast majority of the basketball money still supported Stansbury.

[smootness]

Their roster was more talented? That is laughable. Sword was a 3 star, Thomas was a 3 star, and Ware was a 4 star. Those three alone had more talent then USC's roster combined. Martin took over a shittier program in shittier shape then Ray did.

Bruce Ellington - 4-star
RJ Slawson - 4-star
Lakeem Jackson - 4-star
Damien Leonard - 4-star
Brian Richardson - 3-star
Eric Smith - 3-star

You were saying?

[MarketingBully01]

If that's the case, why the hell didn't we just give Shaka his $3mil per and hire him? Talk about a national coup for perception...

The real reason is because it's bullshit that the money was there... The vast majority of the basketball money still supported Stansbury.

I agree with Engie here. I don't understand their loyalty to Stans over our university.

However, I do think had we hired Drew, the money would have continued to flow and really the only way it stopped was because of Strick's WTF hire.

[TrueMaroon]

Yes we are. We are staring it squarely in the face. Holla back at me in FY2015.

We're at $60-70 mil/yr now.

Stadium expansion will bring in an extra $7-10 million per overall.
New Bowl/Playoff Structure will bring in an extra $5-10 million per.
SECNetwork will bring in in excess of $20mil per for us -- and that number will likely end up going much higher.

You do the math.


Show me anything that has our revenue at $60-70 million a year right now. Anything.

Stadium expansion an extra 10 million...hmm.... When did we pay off the bonds that funded it ? I must have missed that.

We already get a payout from the SEC. It's not going to increase an additional $20 million from them. That would almost double what they send now.

[smootness]

But if this was 2006 you're correct I would not want Scott Drew for MSU. It's not though. It's 2014 and Scott Drew is playing in the Sweet 16 for the THIRD TIME now. We could have Stansbury and Ray and still not have three Sweet 16's after 48 seasons.

And you continue to prove that you don't see it. Scott Drew did not change as a coach from 2006 on. He just kept building.

You would have said in 2006 that Scott Drew would have have three Sweet 16's by now because he had proven he wasn't going to be able to turn it around.

[TrueMaroon]

Adkerson, Damp, Rula etc, were pushing for KENNY PAYNE.

I'm not debating that. Im simply dispelling the idea that the money was not there. It was available.

[MarketingBully01]

Based on who's star scale? No way they had that much talent. They sucked hard for many years! Shit I could say Sword, Thomas and aware were all 4 stars.

[MarketingBully01]

Bruce Ellington - 4-star
RJ Slawson - 4-star
Lakeem Jackson - 4-star
Damien Leonard - 4-star
Brian Richardson - 3-star
Eric Smith - 3-star

You were saying?

Everyone of those guys sucks. None were even close to reaching their full potential. Lakeem Jackson was terrible. A 4 star? Like I said based on whose scale? Ellington was the best player they had and he realistically could only play half a season. That really doesn't prove shit.

[TrueMaroon]

If that's the case, why the hell didn't we just give Shaka his $3mil per and hire him? Talk about a national coup for perception...

The real reason is because it's bullshit that the money was there... The vast majority of the basketball money still supported Stansbury.


I doubt we would've offered him more than we what we were paying our football coach at the time. But even if we would have, I doubt Stricklin could have pulled it off to be honest. And that is exactly how I will feel the next time he has to make a major hire for the university.

[C222]

Everyone of those guys sucks. None were even close to reaching their full potential. Lakeem Jackson was terrible. A 4 star? Like I said based on whose scale? Ellington was the best player they had and he realistically could only play half a season. That really doesn't prove shit.

Haha great argument. Point is, they had more talent than us but you think Frank Martin shouldn't be fired after two disaster seasons, but Rick Ray should. Why does Martin get time to rebuild but Ray doesn't?

[engie]

Show me anything that has our revenue at $60-70 million a year right now. Anything.
Gladly.
FY2012 (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/schools/finances/)
FY2013 (http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstDetails.aspx?756e697469643d3137363038302679656 1723d323031322673656172636843726974657269613d33313 36434643639373337333639373337333639373037303639323 03533373436313734363532363732363437343364333332663 33233363266333233303331333432303334336133323334336 133323337323035303464267264743d332f32362f323031342 0343a32343a323720504d)


Stadium expansion an extra 10 million...hmm.... When did we pay off the bonds that funded it ? I must have missed that.
You obviously missed the difference between the terms revenue and expenses/profit as well. Basically, you missed economics101...


We already get a payout from the SEC. It's not going to increase an additional $20 million from them. That would almost double what they send now.
Please -- when you have no idea what you are talking about -- don't comment at all. It will MORE than double.
At Launch (http://msn.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/sec-network-aims-for-500-million-a-year-launch.php)
Worth over $1Billion/Year in the near future (http://msn.foxsports.com/college-football/outkick-the-coverage/sec-network-opens-new-era-in-college-athletics.php)

[MarketingBully01]

Bruce Ellington - 4-star
RJ Slawson - 4-star
Lakeem Jackson - 4-star
Damien Leonard - 4-star
Brian Richardson - 3-star
Eric Smith - 3-star

You were saying?

And sense we are counting players that transferred to other schools as fair game, we can add Rodney Hood 5 star, Jalen Steele 3 star, Wendell Lewis 3 star. Leonard and Slawson transferred and never played a minute for Martin.

[Dawg61]

And you continue to prove that you don't see it. Scott Drew did not change as a coach from 2006 on. He just kept building.

You would have said in 2006 that Scott Drew would have have three Sweet 16's by now because he had proven he wasn't going to be able to turn it around.

You can't compare Baylor's situation to Ray's. You just can not. Stop giving Ray value by saying Drew did it why can't Ray? Doesn't work like that. Drew had HC experience and comes from a basketball family filled with experience. Ray has none of that. Hindsight is 20/20 with Drew. We KNOW now that he's a phenomenal HC. We DO NOT know that at all with Ray. All y'all are asking is to give Ray more time? Ok but WHY? He's more likely to continue to fall flat on his face then have anything that comes close to resembling what Scott Drew has done at Baylor. Save us all the time and frustration and just hire the PROVEN HC that wants our job. Pay him $2 mill. That's more than he makes right now and less than what Auburn just paid Pearl. Hire him right now and he just may land Newman too. Oh yea Baylor is Adidas too and wears the best Adidas has to offer for basketball. Hmmm new coach fills the Hump, lands Malik Newman and has us sporting the best Adidas has all within year one. Sounds pretty ****ing good to me. Or just keep giving Ray more time and make us all continue to suffer. Your choice.

[MarketingBully01]

No they didn't. Do more research before blindly believing Smoot. Over half the players Smoot mentions transferred before playing for Martin.

[engie]

I doubt we would've offered him more than we what we were paying our football coach at the time. But even if we would have, I doubt Stricklin could have pulled it off to be honest. And that is exactly how I will feel the next time he has to make a major hire for the university.

Why would we not? You said the money was there and was of no issue.... If that was the case and an unlimited revenue stream was ACTUALLY in place, it takes a moron incapable of finding his car to not go pay whatever it took to bring Shaka Smart to Starkville -- a number widely rumored to be around $3million at the time. Which Stricklin is not.

So, which is it? Either the money was there for us to go get ANYBODY -- or it wasn't. Certainly appears to me that it wasn't.

[MarketingBully01]

Bruce Ellington - 4-star (Mainly played football)
RJ Slawson - 4-star (transferred)
Lakeem Jackson - 4-star (sucked and basically a glorified Lewis)
Damien Leonard - 4-star (transferred)
Brian Richardson - 3-star (transferred)
Eric Smith - 3-star (transferred)

You were saying?

Doesn't leave a very talented roster for Martin does it?

[Dawg61]

Why would we not? You said the money was there and was of no issue.... If that was the case and an unlimited revenue stream was ACTUALLY in place, it takes a moron incapable of finding his car to not go pay whatever it took to bring Shaka Smart to Starkville -- a number widely rumored to be around $3million at the time. Which Stricklin is not.

So, which is it? Either the money was there for us to go get ANYBODY -- or it wasn't. Certainly appears to me that it wasn't.

I like Shaka but he's out of the running because paying him $3 MM would immediately mean Mullen gets a huge raise too. We're trying to hire a great basketball coach. Not double Mullen's salary too. Mullen doesn't deserve to be paid $4 mill+ right now. He just doesn't. Not until he's beating Bama and LSU. Then he'll deserve that salary.

[TrueMaroon]

2012 was the year the Seals made a ONE TIME gift of 12.5 million. They're not giving that every year. You can't forecast that into our budget. 69 million less the 12.5 million one time gift puts us at 56.5 million for the year.

Your 2013 link doesn't work by the way, but I'm sure it would have it somewhere in the mid 50's as well.

I can assure you I know the difference between revenue and expense. The extra revenue from the additional seats will not exceed the bond payments by $10,000,000.

[DanDority]

Yes we are. We are staring it squarely in the face. Holla back at me in FY2015.

We're at $60-70 mil/yr now.

Stadium expansion will bring in an extra $7-10 million per overall.
New Bowl/Playoff Structure will bring in an extra $5-10 million per.
SECNetwork will bring in in excess of $20mil per for us -- and that number will likely end up going much higher.

You do the math.

engie, I'm not disagreeing with your numbers but what about Stricklin makes you think that all the extra revenue we have and will be getting via the SEC network and the stadium expansion he will spend smartly? i.e. not hire Billy Bob's cousin, or his wife for that sake.

[TrueMaroon]

But like I said at the time -- we didn't have huge $$ to spend on basketball at the specific point that the Ray hire was made. When we make our next hire, we will have ridiculous money to throw at it -- and will go get whoever we want within reason...

I never said we were going to hire Shaka Smart. YOU Said that we didn't have huge money to spend on a basketball coach. I said that the money was available for the basketball replacement. And it was.

[C222]

Doesn't leave a very talented roster for Martin does it?

They all played in the 2012-13 season which was Martin's first year.

[Hypnodawg]

I'm still at a complete loss as to why we gave an unproven assistant coach $1M. There are literally 100s of coaches with Brick Ray's qualifications and none of them are making anywhere near what he is making.

[TrueMaroon]

Also Engie, your basing most of your premise on an article from Clay Travis that is wildly speculative. No one knows for sure how much we will get, but I don know that each SEC school received 20 million dollars in 2011 and 2012. That's a lot of money; but the article you posted says that each school could receive 70 million dollars 10 years from now. Way too much speculation; not enough concrete evidence to support what it will be in 2015.

[MarketingBully01]

They all played in the 2012-13 season which was Martin's first year.

Nice yeah and the two 4 stars that transferred out averaged a nice 4 ppg. And those two four stars you would think would have landed somewhere great right? Nope, Jacksonville and Fordham. Give it up. USC had equal to worse talent then we did when Martin took over but the reason Martin gets more of a pass from me is because he has been a head coach before rebuilt and been successful.

Everything is an unknown with Ray. Shit, we don't know if this is the norm for him or what he will do. We do know he needs to recruit a lot better then he has. If he doesn't, point is moot. I do know USC is in a better situation then we have two years later.

[smootness]

Everyone of those guys sucks. None were even close to reaching their full potential. Lakeem Jackson was terrible. A 4 star? Like I said based on whose scale? Ellington was the best player they had and he realistically could only play half a season. That really doesn't prove shit.

Where are all the facepalm gifs? You're the one who used stars to show how much talent Ray inherited; I just used the exact same system you did. So now you just claim they were terrible...based on the MarketingBully scale. Cool, well based on the smootness scale, every ounce of production Ware/Thomas/Sword has produced is 100% attributable to Ray because those guys were all actually 1-stars. See where the flaws are in this argument?

And it's funny that you don't blame Martin for the SC players transferring, yet Ray gets all the blame for not keeping everyone that was here when Stans was. Again, I'm just using the same analysis you guys use when throwing Ray under the bus.

Martin inherited talent according to the star rating system, more than Ray did. He just ran them off and couldn't coach them up. So what's the next argument?

[shannondawg]

Think he was hired solely because he is Bailey Howell's son-in-law, and Dr. Keenum was impressed.

Just another reason I am not impressed with Keenum. As a good friend pointed out to me this morning he is a caretaker not a leader with vision..

[shannondawg]

Comment From Basketball jones
"Are you proud of your rick ray hire?"
10:13"

Now that is what I call using up a question.

[Coach34]

Bruce Ellington - 4-star
RJ Slawson - 4-star
Lakeem Jackson - 4-star
Damien Leonard - 4-star
Brian Richardson - 3-star
Eric Smith - 3-star

You were saying?

Shirley you dont think those guys could compare to Shaun Smith, Wendell Lewis, and company????? Stands had wall to wall talent for Ray to move forward with

[MarketingBully01]

Where are all the facepalm gifs? You're the one who used stars to show how much talent Ray inherited; I just used the exact same system you did. So now you just claim they were terrible...based on the MarketingBully scale. Cool, well based on the smootness scale, every ounce of production Ware/Thomas/Sword has produced is 100% attributable to Ray because those guys were all actually 1-stars. See where the flaws are in this argument?

And it's funny that you don't blame Martin for the SC players transferring, yet Ray gets all the blame for not keeping everyone that was here when Stans was. Again, I'm just using the same analysis you guys use when throwing Ray under the bus.

Martin inherited talent according to the star rating system, more than Ray did. He just ran them off and couldn't coach them up. So what's the next argument?

Their stats and record which got Horn fired says they were terrible. Even looking at the stats those kids had out of high school tells you all you need to know. Averaging 16 ppg in high school doesn't impress me. They had one good player of those you mentioned Bruce Ellington. The others you mentioned were just plain crappy.

Ware, Sword, and Thomas combined for more ppg then all those guys you mentioned did.

Martin inherited less talent then Ray. That is all there is to that. You can argue differently if you want but you won't change my mind at all.

[C222]

Nice yeah and the two 4 stars that transferred out averaged a nice 4 ppg. And those two four stars you would think would have landed somewhere great right? Nope, Jacksonville and Fordham. Give it up. USC had equal to worse talent then we did when Martin took over but the reason Martin gets more of a pass from me is because he has been a head coach before rebuilt and been successful.

Everything is an unknown with Ray. Shit, we don't know if this is the norm for him or what he will do. We do know he needs to recruit a lot better then he has. If he doesn't, point is moot. I do know USC is in a better situation then we have two years later.

Martin didn't have to rebuild at Kansas St. He was handed a team with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker.

[MarketingBully01]

Shirley you dont think those guys could compare to Shaun Smith, Wendell Lewis, and company????? Stands had wall to wall talent for Ray to move forward with

Yes, and guess what Coach all those guys transferred out sans 2 and ended up at power house basketball programs Jacksonville and Fordham.

[Coach34]

I'm still at a complete loss as to why we gave an unproven assistant coach $1M. There are literally 100s of coaches with Brick Ray's qualifications and none of them are making anywhere near what he is making.

Not in the SEC there arent. We had to pay him $1MM because this is the SEC- he's already the lowest paid coach in the conference at 1MM. We cant go lower than that

[Coach34]

Their stats and record which got Horn fired says they were terrible. Even looking at the stats those kids had out of high school tells you all you need to know. Averaging 16 ppg in high school doesn't impress me. They had one good player of those you mentioned Bruce Ellington. The others you mentioned were just plain crappy.

Ware, Sword, and Thomas combined for more ppg then all those guys you mentioned did.

Martin inherited less talent then Ray. That is all there is to that. You can argue differently if you want but you won't change my mind at all.

Well, based on the star system- that's just not true. With Ray having to "weed out" all the drugheads and clean things up- SC was in better shape than us when both men were hired. And Ray has performed slightly better to this point

We'll see how the next 2 years go with a full squad

[MarketingBully01]

Martin didn't have to rebuild at Kansas St. He was handed a team with Michael Beasley and Bill Walker.

Of which he recruited and got to come there. Huggy Bear was only there one season. That program was practically Martin's.

[smootness]

Their stats and record which got Horn fired says they were terrible. Even looking at the stats those kids had out of high school tells you all you need to know. Averaging 16 ppg in high school doesn't impress me. They had one good player of those you mentioned Bruce Ellington. The others you mentioned were just plain crappy.

Ware, Sword, and Thomas combined for more ppg then all those guys you mentioned did.

Martin inherited less talent then Ray. That is all there is to that. You can argue differently if you want but you won't change my mind at all.

So what were the PPG numbers for Thomas, Sword, and Ware in HS? If we're going to constantly change the parameters of the argument, you're going to have to help me keep up.

Or you could just say, 'Based completely on my opinion with nothing concrete to back me up, Ray had more talent between Sword, Thomas, and Ware than Martin did on his entire roster'; if you said that, we could just agree to disagree and move on.

[Dawg61]

Not sure why we're arguing Martin vs Ray unless this is the "who sucks the most bracket #1 seed vs #16 seed".

[MarketingBully01]

Well, based on the star system- that's just not true. With Ray having to "weed out" all the drugheads and clean things up- SC was in better shape than us when both men were hired. And Ray has performed slightly better to this point

We'll see how the next 2 years go with a full squad

Because next to last and last are improvements over finishing higher. Yeah, whatever.

[sandwolf]

I can assure you I know the difference between revenue and expense. The extra revenue from the additional seats will not exceed the bond payments by $10,000,000.

The bond payments are an expense and in no way factor into a discussion about the revenue generated by the additional seats. What you are saying is that the additional seats will not generate a profit of $10,000,000.

[engie]

2012 was the year the Seals made a ONE TIME gift of 12.5 million. They're not giving that every year. You can't forecast that into our budget. 69 million less the 12.5 million one time gift puts us at 56.5 million for the year.
The Seals didn't make that payment as a LUMP SUM. It's spread out over a couple of years.


Your 2013 link doesn't work by the way, but I'm sure it would have it somewhere in the mid 50's as well.
And like every other assumption you've made in this thread -- it's been proven ridiculous. Follow the link -- it doesn't let me hyperlink to the actual page. Let me get that for you...
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20140326-ngb8-34kb.jpg (http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/20140326-ngb8-34kb)


I can assure you I know the difference between revenue and expense. The extra revenue from the additional seats will not exceed the bond payments by $10,000,000.
Obviously not -- seeing how badly you whiffed on what I actually said the first time.

And I didn't say that we would see a net $10million in PROFITS from the stadium either, did I? I said we would be a $100mil athletics department 2 years from now -- if not next year -- and I'm sticking to it. It's EASY to see how I arrived at the numbers -- if you allow yourselves to leave behind poor ole MSU thinking for 15 seconds.

[C222]

Of which he recruited and got to come there. Huggy Bear was only there one season. That program was practically Martin's.

He didn't recruit Beasley. A guy by the name of Delonte Hill did. Beasley committed to Charlotte where Hill coached. Hill brought him to K State. Keep trying.

[engie]

engie, I'm not disagreeing with your numbers but what about Stricklin makes you think that all the extra revenue we have and will be getting via the SEC network and the stadium expansion he will spend smartly? i.e. not hire Billy Bob's cousin, or his wife for that sake.

Everything he's done has been smart with money. He's hired smartly in every single sport and position that I'm aware of at this point. We will see for sure on men's basketball next year...

[smootness]

Of which he recruited and got to come there. Huggy Bear was only there one season. That program was practically Martin's.

Oh geez. Yeah, the #1 player in the country went to Kansas State because of no-name assistant Frank Martin.

Isn't that also the argument? That no-name assistant coaches can't do anything? They never turn into anything more than that.

[engie]

I never said we were going to hire Shaka Smart. YOU Said that we didn't have huge money to spend on a basketball coach. I said that the money was available for the basketball replacement. And it was.

You implied that the money was there for Stricklin to hire whoever he wanted and he just botched it. I simply showed how ridiculous that position was.

[engie]

Also Engie, your basing most of your premise on an article from Clay Travis that is wildly speculative. No one knows for sure how much we will get, but I don know that each SEC school received 20 million dollars in 2011 and 2012. That's a lot of money; but the article you posted says that each school could receive 70 million dollars 10 years from now. Way too much speculation; not enough concrete evidence to support what it will be in 2015.

- We KNOW the SEC is charging $1.30 per subscriber inside the TV footprint at launch.
- We KNOW there are over 30 million subscribers inside the TV footprint.
- We KNOW the SEC is charging $0.25 per subscriber outside the TV footprint at launch.
- We know there is another 80+ million subscribers outside the TV footprint.
- We KNOW DISH, AT&T, and a rural network provider have signed on. Doing the math on that, we already KNOW it's worth over $5mil/school RIGHT NOW 5 months before launch -- with only 2 of the major providers.

At expected saturation -- which they've repeatedly stated is expected to be similar to ESPNU -- it's worth about $30million per school at current prices. I'm projecting that it's at very damn near full saturation in 2015 -- and probably will be before 2014 is over. Luckily, I went conservative on my initial numbers -- lest your head explode on the front end...

[Hypnodawg]

Not in the SEC there arent. We had to pay him $1MM because this is the SEC- he's already the lowest paid coach in the conference at 1MM. We cant go lower than that

I'm missing this SEC bylaw that says we can't pay less than $1M. You pay someone what they are worth he ain't worth $1M.

"We cant go lower than that" where is that written? Besides on this message board by Brick supporters.

[MarketingBully01]

Now you are talking about players that were there one freaking year and proving my point. He had to rebuild after losing those players. Now you are arguing just to argue both you and Smoot. I am wrong that he recruited Beasley but those two were there one year! Just give it a rest!

[mic]

Frank Martin (28-38 / 9-27) has made
180k per non conference win
422k per SEC win

with better talent when he got there

Rick Ray (24-41 / 7-29)
83k per non conference win
285k per SEC win

Looks to me like USCe fan base should be much more pissed about the last 2 years than our fan base.
Lets compare after year 3 when "hopefully" RR has a full roster to work with.
And don't give me the USCe has never been good in basketball. Because the last 10 years they have been as good or some could say better than we have.. Couple of NIT championships ( I believe back to back) , a East Division championship , and a trip to the NCAA

[engie]

Now you are taking about players that were there one freaking year and proving my point. He had to rebuild after losing those players. Now you are arguing just to argue both you and Smoot. I am wrong that he recruited Beasley but those two were there one year! Just give it a rest!

By your definition of Ray -- it's Martin's OWN fault that those players left after one year.

You are talking in circles -- and incapable of clearly defining a logical position without hypocritically applying parameters as you see fit. As is the case with the majority of the Ray haters. The extent to which Smoot is dominating this is hilarious really. You would have been way better off to throw out a "F Rick Ray" and left it at that instead of again pretending that you could logically debate it.

[smootness]

Now you are taking about players that were there one freaking year and proving my point. He had to rebuild after losing those players. Now you are arguing just to argue both you and Smoot. I am wrong that he recruited Beasley but those two were there one year! Just give it a rest!

Give it a rest? You're the one who stated the opinions that Martin inherited more talent at SC than Ray did at State and that Martin rebuilt Kansas State. We disagree with those opinions and are backing up our argument against them. By 'give it a rest,' do you mean, 'stop hammering me with facts that go against my opinion?'

I think Martin did a very good job at KSU; I don't think he 'rebuilt' them, but he did keep the train rolling forward that Huggins started and had ultimately more success than Huggins did in his one year.

I don't think he's done anything special at SC. I think he inherited the better roster initially than Ray did, and I don't see how Martin has done a better job than Ray. The only reason anyone is trying to argue Martin had a worse roster last year is because Ray beat him twice and Martin publicly talked about what a great job Ray did; so the only way to try to de-legitimize that is to claim Ray should have beaten them last year, which is crazy.

[Coach34]

Give it a rest? You're the one who stated the opinions that Martin inherited more talent at SC than Ray did at State and that Martin rebuilt Kansas State. We disagree with those opinions and are backing up our argument against them. By 'give it a rest,' do you mean, 'stop hammering me with facts that go against my opinion?.

Um, Yes Sir- that is exactly what he is saying

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

Do y'all just have short term memory loss and sweep under the rug that we lost 14 of our last 15 games? I don't care how bad you are you can't do that and expect fan support no matter how bad the situation.

[Coach34]

Cohen went 6-24 in his 2nd season as State coach

What will get the people on Ray's side? Improvement in Season 3. Rebuilding is over- now it's time for Brick Ray to get better

[quickstrike2]

Cohen had a couple of 40 win seasons at another SEC school that fans could look at for encouragement thru the tough early seasons.

I'm hopeful Ray has a solid year 3, and I think he can.

[engie]

Cohen had a couple of 40 win seasons at another SEC school that fans could look at for encouragement thru the tough early seasons.

The same fans lost their minds in the exact same way with Cohen. That's the point... You may see a hypothetical where that buys patience -- but at MSU, for many of the most vocal fans, it did not...

[Dawg61]

SEC is also the strongest baseball conference but only like the 7th strongest basketball conference. The Cohen/Ray comparisons have to stop.

[Coach34]

Cohen had a couple of 40 win seasons at another SEC school that fans could look at for encouragement thru the tough early seasons.

I'm hopeful Ray has a solid year 3, and I think he can.

but to alot of people that loved Polk and kept hearing from that faction that Cohen wasnt the right person for the job- they didnt give a shit about what he had done at Kentucky. They were yelling loudly that Cohen cussed too much, the players hated him, and he would never win at State.

And to others, the fact that he could somehow go 6-24 at Miss State with all the success we had had and all the history- meant he couldnt handle the job.

Too much revisionist history on all his Kentucky success- a helluva lot of people didnt give a shit about that in May of 2010

[Coach34]

SEC is also the strongest baseball conference but only like the 7th strongest basketball conference. The Cohen/Ray comparisons have to stop.

No- they are extremely valid and show the idiocy of fans that are too shortsighted. Does it mean Ray will also be successful? No. Does it mean he wont? Also no- Cohen showed it takes time to rebuild. Just like Frank Martin has and case after case.

[MarketingBully01]

Frank Martin (28-38 / 9-27) has made
180k per non conference win
422k per SEC win

with better talent when he got there

Rick Ray (24-41 / 7-29)
83k per non conference win
285k per SEC win

Looks to me like USCe fan base should be much more pissed about the last 2 years than our fan base.
Lets compare after year 3 when "hopefully" RR has a full roster to work with.
And don't give me the USCe has never been good in basketball. Because the last 10 years they have been as good or some could say better than we have.. Couple of NIT championships ( I believe back to back) , a East Division championship , and a trip to the NCAA

I'd rather have our 4 NCAA appearances and 3 NIT appearances in that time frame. This is just stupid. And I will address the other parts in the next post on why I think Ray had more talent to work with then Frank Martin.

[MarketingBully01]

but to alot of people that loved Polk and kept hearing from that faction that Cohen wasnt the right person for the job- they didnt give a shit about what he had done at Kentucky. They were yelling loudly that Cohen cussed too much, the players hated him, and he would never win at State.

And to others, the fact that he could somehow go 6-24 at Miss State with all the success we had had and all the history- meant he couldnt handle the job.

Too much revisionist history on all his Kentucky success- a helluva lot of people didnt give a shit about that in May of 2010

I always thought Cohen was the right hire in baseball. If we had made a Cohen like hire in basketball, you wouldn't hear a peep from me. If Martin were here, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Ray has done nothing to even draw a comparison like this. Nothing.

[Coach34]

I always thought Cohen was the right hire in baseball. If we had made a Cohen like hire in basketball, you wouldn't hear a peep from me. If Martin were here, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. Ray has done nothing to even draw a comparison like this. Nothing.

but you're one person

Engie has linked thread after thread of people that wanted Cohen fired. There were alot of fans that couldnt believe State could go 6-24 in SEC baseball. Too much hindsight now

[Todd4State]

but to alot of people that loved Polk and kept hearing from that faction that Cohen wasnt the right person for the job- they didnt give a shit about what he had done at Kentucky. They were yelling loudly that Cohen cussed too much, the players hated him, and he would never win at State.

And to others, the fact that he could somehow go 6-24 at Miss State with all the success we had had and all the history- meant he couldnt handle the job.

Too much revisionist history on all his Kentucky success- a helluva lot of people didnt give a shit about that in May of 2010

I can't remember how many times someone on sixpack would ask me about Cohen and whether he was "the right man for the job" and I would point out:

A. We had few SEC caliber players. I personally believe that if they had bought in we probably would have had a little bit more success- like 30-26 type team success. But that's water under the bridge now.

B. Cohen had success at Kentucky and also people forget he also had success at Northwestern State. People also tend to forget that his first two years at Kentucky were also less than stellar before he began to succeed big time his final three years. And when he was at Florida as the hitting coach, he had a large part in recruiting a team there that ended up in the NC finals under McMahon.

But you are correct a lot of people didn't buy it and were probably looking at Brian O'Conner and hoping. Others were probably hoping that Raffo would get his chance - and after all the baseball coach that most MSU fans knew was Polk, so his philosophy was what they knew and believed in.

[quickstrike2]

but to alot of people that loved Polk and kept hearing from that faction that Cohen wasnt the right person for the job- they didnt give a shit about what he had done at Kentucky. They were yelling loudly that Cohen cussed too much, the players hated him, and he would never win at State.

And to others, the fact that he could somehow go 6-24 at Miss State with all the success we had had and all the history- meant he couldnt handle the job.

Too much revisionist history on all his Kentucky success- a helluva lot of people didnt give a shit about that in May of 2010

Well I agree with that, alot of fans were losing their shit. I'm just giving my thoughts. When things looked bad, in my mind what gave me confidence was his previous track record.

[Coach34]

If Martin were here, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

Well, there's the crux of the problem. You would give a name the benefit of the doubt- but not a no-name. See, that's ignorant. Tony Barbee won at UTEP- but couldnt at Auburn. Georgia's coach was considered one of the hottest names in the country but has struggled there.

All we are saying is let's see what he does next year with a full roster before writing him off

[Dawg61]

All we are saying is let's see what he does next year with a full roster before writing him off

He won't have a full roster albeit only by 1 spot AS OF RIGHT NOW. But what if we have a few transfers/suspensions/kicked off/quits/non-qualifiers like his first two seasons brought us? What if we start game 1 of year three with 8-9 players AGAIN? Will that show you then?

[MarketingBully01]

Give it a rest? You're the one who stated the opinions that Martin inherited more talent at SC than Ray did at State and that Martin rebuilt Kansas State. We disagree with those opinions and are backing up our argument against them. By 'give it a rest,' do you mean, 'stop hammering me with facts that go against my opinion?'

I think Martin did a very good job at KSU; I don't think he 'rebuilt' them, but he did keep the train rolling forward that Huggins started and had ultimately more success than Huggins did in his one year.

I don't think he's done anything special at SC. I think he inherited the better roster initially than Ray did, and I don't see how Martin has done a better job than Ray. The only reason anyone is trying to argue Martin had a worse roster last year is because Ray beat him twice and Martin publicly talked about what a great job Ray did; so the only way to try to de-legitimize that is to claim Ray should have beaten them last year, which is crazy.

This is my last post on this subject because I think this is absolutely ridiculous it has gotten this far with you Smoot. But here it goes.

2011-2012 Final Record for USC 10-21 (2-14) SEC/ Fairly shitty good enough for last in the league and why Horn was canned.

Your great talent you boasted for USC, how many ppg they averaged for Martin, and where they transferred to because if they were so good wouldn't they have found a great spot???

Here we go:

Damien Leonard 4.0 ppg Future School - Fordham - aka Sucks
RJ Slawson 4.2 ppg Future School - Jacksonville - aka Sucks
Eric Smith 5.7 ppg Future School Coastal Carolina - ??
Brian Richardson 7.5 ppg Future School High Point University - aka Sucks

All combined guys transferring out and going to great wonderful bad ass schools average combined - 21.4 points

Guys you mentioned that stayed with the program

Bruce Ellington 9.9 ppg - only decent one and is only one of the shit group to average over two of our other players

Lakeem Jackson 7.5 ppg - basically a glorified Wendell Lewis

Our big three

Gavin Ware 8.4 ppg
Fred Thomas 9.7 ppg
Craig Sword 10.5 ppg

We had a solid young nucleus to build off of. Martin had worse to maybe close to as talented as us but definitely not more talent. I would rather have three solid to good players then one player and a bunch of scrubs. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but the reasons above are why I think Ray had more talent then Martin to deal with when they got there. This is my last post on it.

[MarketingBully01]

It's not ignorant. When you need to rebuild a program, you don't hire an unknown who has never been a head coach. You just don't. Stricklin screwed this shit up and you guys are defending him on it. That is just recipe for disaster. Ray is not Crean, Ray is not Cohen, Ray is not even Drew at Baylor. His coaching prospects were between us and Winthrop. Let that sink in.

[Dawg61]

I blame Winthrop

[MarketingBully01]

Well, there's the crux of the problem. You would give a name the benefit of the doubt- but not a no-name. See, that's ignorant. Tony Barbee won at UTEP- but couldnt at Auburn. Georgia's coach was considered one of the hottest names in the country but has struggled there.

All we are saying is let's see what he does next year with a full roster before writing him off

You are talking about Georgia and Auburn. Those are two schools who have shit basketball programs. UGA hasn't been relevant since Tubby Smith and Jim Harrick. Shit and both of those coaches won national championships. Auburn has only had two successful coaches in its history Sonny Smith and Cliff Ellis. That is it. Those are bad examples. Shit, it would take a Bruce Pearl coach to win at Auburn. No one else will win there.

[Coach34]

He won't have a full roster albeit only by 1 spot AS OF RIGHT NOW. But what if we have a few transfers/suspensions/kicked off/quits/non-qualifiers like his first two seasons brought us? What if we start game 1 of year three with 8-9 players AGAIN? Will that show you then?

What if he doesnt?

He is done with Stands players except Roq- it's all on him now. Lewis and Steele screwed him AFTER the Fall had started. He's already got 2 of his signees in school and practicing with the team. He's had two years- it's all on him now. Let's see what happens.

Let...It...Play...Out

[Coach34]

You are talking about Georgia and Auburn. Those are two schools who have shit basketball programs. UGA hasn't been relevant since Tubby Smith and Jim Harrick. .

Georgia has just as many NCAA appearances as we do the last 9 years- and they are viewed in much more high esteem as a job than State.
Auburn has actually had more NCAA Tourney success than us since 2000- and as Pearl just showed- they are viewed that way as well.

Our program is not as good as many of you seem to think it is. We have 2 NCAA Tourneys the last 9 years. TWO in NINE years.

[Dawg61]

What if he doesnt?

He is done with Stands players except Roq- it's all on him now. Lewis and Steele screwed him AFTER the Fall had started. He's already got 2 of his signees in school and practicing with the team. He's had two years- it's all on him now. Let's see what happens.

Let...It...Play...Out

13 by game 1. For myself I'll grant him year 3 if he accomplishes that. Been saying that. I know you and others think that's stupid but it paints a bigger picture than you're seeing if he doesn't imo. As of right now he's in line to suit up 12 and will have saved a scholarship for the third consecutive season. That alone is enough to let him go imo. He keeps pushing back the importance to win now till next season every time he does that. Why else does he keep saving it? Because he can't land someone good enough to warrant that spot? Because he likes the option for next season? Last place and last place because we have NO BENCH washes ANY excuse he's got to keep saving that spot till the next year till the next year till the next year. If your soldiers keep dying cause they run out of bullets ya better damn make sure they got more bullets the next time. js

[MarketingBully01]

Yep, and we can blame loafers. He single handedly blew up our program. He had a chance to improve it but instead went this way. He had no plan in place and took our program into the toilet with his no plan. Stansbury had to go I agree but loafers needed to have someone there immediately to pick up where Stans left off. Regardless of Loafers blowing up our program, UGA and Auburn have shitty basketball programs. Pearl's first year IMO will be his first losing season as a head coach but I do think he will have Auburn in the NCAA tourney before we go again.

[Coach34]

Yep, and we can blame loafers.

I'm not happy about the hiring- we agree. Just willing to give Ray his chance- rebuilding aint easy. Especially in this age of SEC basketball where there are alot of shitty basketball players disguised as 4-star talented athletes

[smootness]

This is my last post on this subject because I think this is absolutely ridiculous it has gotten this far with you Smoot. But here it goes.

2011-2012 Final Record for USC 10-21 (2-14) SEC/ Fairly shitty good enough for last in the league and why Horn was canned.

Your great talent you boasted for USC, how many ppg they averaged for Martin, and where they transferred to because if they were so good wouldn't they have found a great spot???

Here we go:

Damien Leonard 4.0 ppg Future School - Fordham - aka Sucks
RJ Slawson 4.2 ppg Future School - Jacksonville - aka Sucks
Eric Smith 5.7 ppg Future School Coastal Carolina - ??
Brian Richardson 7.5 ppg Future School High Point University - aka Sucks

All combined guys transferring out and going to great wonderful bad ass schools average combined - 21.4 points

Guys you mentioned that stayed with the program

Bruce Ellington 9.9 ppg - only decent one and is only one of the shit group to average over two of our other players

Lakeem Jackson 7.5 ppg - basically a glorified Wendell Lewis

Our big three

Gavin Ware 8.4 ppg
Fred Thomas 9.7 ppg
Craig Sword 10.5 ppg

We had a solid young nucleus to build off of. Martin had worse to maybe close to as talented as us but definitely not more talent. I would rather have three solid to good players then one player and a bunch of scrubs. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree but the reasons above are why I think Ray had more talent then Martin to deal with when they got there. This is my last post on it.

This is your last post on it because your points are ridiculous and you know it, and you're tired of defending them.

Why in the world are we now using their PPG in their freshman year of college? What in the heck does that prove? Of course if you are the primary options for your team, you will score points, no matter how talented you are.

If we're now using that as the barometer (once again shifting the argument), then LaShay Page and Brenton Williams had more talent than anyone on our roster last year. How do I know this? Because they averaged more points than anyone on our team did, and that is now the proof of a player's talent. South Carolina actually averaged 5 more points as a team last year than we did...so they were clearly much more talented.

Please don't let this be your last post. I can't wait to see where the goalposts are next.

[HailState39110]

I'm not happy about the hiring- we agree. Just willing to give Ray his chance- rebuilding aint easy. Especially in this age of SEC basketball where there are alot of shitty basketball players disguised as 4-star talented athletes

Exactly. You can't blame Rick Ray for wanting the job and getting hired. That's not his fault . Support him through next season . I think if he goes 7-11 or better in year 3 or signs Newman he will be guaranteed a 4th year . If the wheels fall off again like they have the past two seasons ( long painful losing streaks) than yes it will be time to hammer Stricklin for completely going out on his own and botching this hire. If Ray shows signs of turning this thing around then kudos to Rick and Mr Stricklin. We don't need to make this a who was right on a message board competition. We will know in the next 10 months if this thing is going to work out . Let this thing play out and support the program until it plays out

[Homedawg]

It's not ignorant. When you need to rebuild a program, you don't hire an unknown who has never been a head coach. You just don't. Stricklin screwed this shit up and you guys are defending him on it. That is just recipe for disaster. Ray is not Crean, Ray is not Cohen, Ray is not even Drew at Baylor. His coaching prospects were between us and Winthrop. Let that sink in.

You mean like dan Mullen? Never a head coach. We were rebuilding I'd say...

[Dawg61]

Exactly. You can't blame Rick Ray for wanting the job and getting hired. That's not his fault . Support him through next season . I think if he goes 7-11 or better in year 3 or signs Newman he will be guaranteed a 4th year . If the wheels fall off again like they have the past two seasons ( long painful losing streaks) than yes it will be time to hammer Stricklin for completely going out on his own and botching this hire. If Ray shows signs of turning this thing around then kudos to Rick and Mr Stricklin. We don't need to make this a who was right on a message board competition. We will know in the next 10 months if this thing is going to work out . Let this thing play out and support the program until it plays out

Who can't go 7-11 with a roster half full of 3 year starters? Y'all just gonna **** around and end up keeping Ray for 5 years. Just. Like. Croom. Would you of preferred to get a 3 year head start on where we are today in football? We are sitting pretty right now in football. But what if today was actually three years ago. What if Croom had been let go after two years not five and we'd have Mullen for an extra three years? Where would we be today? Serious preseason favorites to win the SEC West? Maybe. This is what I'm saying for basketball. If we are looking at a new coach or our Mullen for basketball after year 5 then we shouldn't wait. We can give that coach a 3 year head start on building his program today. Won't happen though cause we have the cheapest AD in the SEC and too many fans that think Ray hasn't been given a fair shot. You can pay me $2+ mill for an unfair shot all day every day.

[MarketingBully01]

This is your last post on it because your points are ridiculous and you know it, and you're tired of defending them.

Why in the world are we now using their PPG in their freshman year of college? What in the heck does that prove? Of course if you are the primary options for your team, you will score points, no matter how talented you are.

If we're now using that as the barometer (once again shifting the argument), then LaShay Page and Brenton Williams had more talent than anyone on our roster last year. How do I know this? Because they averaged more points than anyone on our team did, and that is now the proof of a player's talent. South Carolina actually averaged 5 more points as a team last year than we did...so they were clearly much more talented.

Please don't let this be your last post. I can't wait to see where the goalposts are next.

You just perplex me. I was using their points per game in the 2012-2013 year which guess what? None of those guys were freshmen. Most of them were juniors. Once again, you fabricate so people will think you are right and I am wrong.

Martin recruited Page to come there (Page came from Southern Miss but only played 9 games that year????) so using Page was a bad example. Trust me, I am right on this and you are wrong. Your blatant lack of facts here prove me right.

[MarketingBully01]

You mean like dan Mullen? Never a head coach. We were rebuilding I'd say...

Football and basketball are completely different animals.

[MarketingBully01]

Who can't go 7-11 with a roster half full of 3 year starters? Y'all just gonna **** around and end up keeping Ray for 5 years. Just. Like. Croom. Would you of preferred to get a 3 year head start on where we are today in football? We are sitting pretty right now in football. But what if today was actually three years ago. What if Croom had been let go after two years not five and we'd have Mullen for an extra three years? Where would we be today? Serious preseason favorites to win the SEC West? Maybe. This is what I'm saying for basketball. If we are looking at a new coach or our Mullen for basketball after year 5 then we shouldn't wait. We can give that coach a 3 year head start on building his program today. Won't happen though cause we have the cheapest AD in the SEC and too many fans that think Ray hasn't been given a fair shot. You can pay me $2+ mill for an unfair shot all day every day.

If they keep lowering the bar, Ray will stay here forever. First it was, gotta make the NIT. Next it was gotta be over .500 and just miss the NIT. Now it's go at least 7-11 in the conference. Woohoo!

[gtowndawg]

Who can't go 7-11 with a roster half full of 3 year starters?

If that's our goal in year three than Stricklin and Ray both deserved to be tarred and feathered while I watch on the new video board.

What's worse, are people really going to sit back and say "That was a great year! Good job Ray. We won 7 games in the SEC!"

[quickstrike2]

You mean like dan Mullen? Never a head coach. We were rebuilding I'd say...

You just can't compare Mullen are Ray in my opinion. Mullen was pretty well known, had coached some big name QB's and had coordinated National Championship teams. I don't mind someone with some solid credentials being handed a program as a first time head coach. I do have a problem with a unheard of guy being handed a train wreck of a program. Still, I support Ray and am hopeful he proves something in year 3. However, if he doesn't then the clock is ticking. I don't want to hear shit about him not having that 13th scholarship player and how you can't win with the 12 scholarship players.

[HailState39110]

If that's our goal in year three than Stricklin and Ray both deserved to be tarred and feathered while I watch on the new video board.

What's worse, are people really going to sit back and say "That was a great year! Good job Ray. We won 7 games in the SEC!"

If Ray goes 7-11 in conference in 10-3 OOC that's 17-14 overall and enough improvement in year 3 to give him a 4th year with a senior laden team. We won 7 conference games in 2 years . If he can double his conference win total in year 3 yes I think he deserves a 4th year . As a fan this is the BARE MINIMUM he needs to do to maintain his job . 7 wins is not a goal.

[engie]

Pearl, however, is being careful when it comes to setting expectations for his first Auburn team.

?I think the No. 1 thing you do with expectations when you first come in is don?t set a timetable,? he said. ?I?ve got to build a strong foundation and we?ve got to have a focus on the process. I?m not concerned about the record right away...

Highlight to see who said all of this...because it sounds an awful lot like what a bunch of you are slaughtering Ray for...

Link (http://auburn.247sports.com/Article/Bruce-Pearl-promoting-Auburn-no-apologies-for-the-SEC-185060)

[MarketingBully01]

If Ray goes 7-11 in conference in 10-3 OOC that's 17-14 overall and enough improvement in year 3 to give him a 4th year with a senior laden team. We won 7 conference games in 2 years . If he can double his conference win total in year 3 yes I think he deserves a 4th year . As a fan this is the BARE MINIMUM he needs to do to maintain his job . 7 wins is not a goal.

10-3 is a pretty lofty goal for OOC. What if we go say 8-5 and 7-11 in the conference to finish 15-16 overall. Does he keep his job then?

[MarketingBully01]

Pearl, however, is being careful when it comes to setting expectations for his first Auburn team.

?I think the No. 1 thing you do with expectations when you first come in is don?t set a timetable,? he said. ?I?ve got to build a strong foundation and we?ve got to have a focus on the process. I?m not concerned about the record right away...

Highlight to see who said all of this...because it sounds an awful lot like what a bunch of you are slaughtering Ray for...

Link (http://auburn.247sports.com/Article/Bruce-Pearl-promoting-Auburn-no-apologies-for-the-SEC-185060)

Duh, of course Pearl is going to say that but guess what, he is Bruce Pearl. If some no name assistant head coach said that (of course Auburn would not of gone the Stricklin route), I don't think the Auburn fans would be as patient.

Of course with Pearl's track record, he will more then likely have them .500 next year and in the dance a year after that. His rebuild will be probably 2 years max.

[engie]

Of course with Pearl's track record, he will more then likely have them .500 next year and in the dance a year after that. His rebuild will be probably 2 years max.

Bookmarked.

He can't recruit but 2.5 months of this entire recruiting cycle. SO, he's going to miraculously recruit an NCAA team of freshmen in 2.5 months at a traditionally shitty SEC school? Get back on your rocker.

What he is actually going to prove is that total rebuilds of meandering programs take time. But you've proven in this very thread that you are comfortable moving the goalposts between every post -- so in 2 years, I'm confident that you will do the same once again...

[HailState39110]

10-3 is a pretty lofty goal for OOC. What if we go say 8-5 and 7-11 in the conference to finish 15-16 overall. Does he keep his job then?

As a fan no . I think Ray needs a winning record and at least 7 conference wins to continue to sell the program to the fanbase IMO ( signing Malik Newmann would be the wildcard in this )

[bully99]

I think money is a big difference between auburn and state. In the last couple of years auburn ,they have spent loads of money on coaches. Malzahn, Pearl, They hired the head baseball coach from Oklahoma, and the head softball coach from Arizona State, who's won two softball national championships in the last few years. I like van steudaman a lot, but when is the last time we hired a head coach of that stature who didn't have Mississippi State ties.

[MarketingBully01]

Bookmarked as well when Ray has his amazing 3rd season next year and all but Smoot will stay on the Ray bandwagon. Remember Engie, you and Coach have said numerous times that if Ray doesn't make the NIT next year it's time to go in a new direction. By Ray's fourth year, he may only have Smoot on his side.

[MarketingBully01]

What you guys fail to realize is that rebuilds in basketball don't take as long as what we are seeing with Ray.

He has several factors working against him that prolong any rebuild.

A) Never been a head coach - this is huge. If he had been a head coach, you wouldn't of seen him take chances on players like a Daniels or the kid from Findley Prep and yes Dawg61 we would have a full roster. There would also be some other nuances that he would have learned along the way that would make our program better.

B) No ties to the southeast for recruiting purposes - this is really killing him. If he were a great recruiter, it would alleviate problem A. If he were a great recruiter, we would be channelling great young players into the program and be seeing strides forward instead of going backwards from next to last to dead last.

C) Stricklin saying he has all the time in the world to rebuild. This shit is all on Stricklin here which may have lead to some of Ray's questionable decisions in the first place. When you feel no pressure to win, that is a very bad thing. Just is. Ask Croom, he thought he had 5 years and would never get fired.

When you add A, B, and C up you get at minimum a 4-5 year rebuild when a 1-2 year rebuild in basketball is usually all you need unless you are on Probation, your program was rocked with a murder scandal or your AD blows up the program.

[gtowndawg]

If Ray goes 7-11 in conference in 10-3 OOC that's 17-14 overall and enough improvement in year 3 to give him a 4th year with a senior laden team. We won 7 conference games in 2 years . If he can double his conference win total in year 3 yes I think he deserves a 4th year . As a fan this is the BARE MINIMUM he needs to do to maintain his job . 7 wins is not a goal.

But the only way I consider hanging on to Ray after next year if he only get's 7 SEC wins is if he shows MASSIVE improvement recruiting. Right now, that's not on the horizon at all.

[C222]

13 by game 1. For myself I'll grant him year 3 if he accomplishes that. Been saying that. I know you and others think that's stupid but it paints a bigger picture than you're seeing if he doesn't imo. As of right now he's in line to suit up 12 and will have saved a scholarship for the third consecutive season. That alone is enough to let him go imo. He keeps pushing back the importance to win now till next season every time he does that. Why else does he keep saving it? Because he can't land someone good enough to warrant that spot? Because he likes the option for next season? Last place and last place because we have NO BENCH washes ANY excuse he's got to keep saving that spot till the next year till the next year till the next year. If your soldiers keep dying cause they run out of bullets ya better damn make sure they got more bullets the next time. js

So you want him to just offer someone to get to 13 next year but you want to cut guys who you don't think have developed in 1 year. What if we offered Troutman? Will that make you happy because we got to 13 or will you want to cut him after 1 year because he's not as good as you hoped?

[Coach34]

Bookmarked as well when Ray has his amazing 3rd season next year and all but Smoot will stay on the Ray bandwagon. Remember Engie, you and Coach have said numerous times that if Ray doesn't make the NIT next year it's time to go in a new direction. By Ray's fourth year, he may only have Smoot on his side.

This is not completely correct. I said we better be at least competing for the NIT. It takes 20+ wins now to make the NIT, and we better be at least close.

[MarketingBully01]

So you want him to just offer someone to get to 13 next year but you want to cut guys who you don't think have developed in 1 year. What if we offered Troutman? Will that make you happy because we got to 13 or will you want to cut him after 1 year because he's not as good as you hoped?

Quick question C222, were you happy with the Stricklin coaching search and him eventually coming to the decision that Rick Ray was the right man for the job?

[Coach34]

What you guys fail to realize is that rebuilds in basketball don't take as long as what we are seeing with Ray.

I keep seeing this- but nobody can name one other than Kentucky that took just a year or so when the team lost 4-5 starters and had major roster change

[MarketingBully01]

This is not completely correct. I said we better be at least competing for the NIT. It takes 20+ wins now to make the NIT, and we better be at least close.

So 15-16 would jump you off the bandwagon. Good to know.

[engie]

Quick question C222, were you happy with the Stricklin coaching search and him eventually coming to the decision that Rick Ray was the right man for the job?

The coaching search was 2+ years ago. WTF difference does that make at this point? NONE is the correct answer.

A search can be an imperfect process and still arrive at the correct conclusion. Hence how Nick Saban ended up at Alabama after they were publicly humiliated by Spurrier, RichRod, and Petersen...just among the names we know about...

And, I already know you are going to fail reading comprehension and attempt to twist that into me saying that Rick Ray = Nick Saban -- when that wasn't what I said at all -- but have at it.

[engie]

So 15-16 would jump you off the bandwagon. Good to know.

15-16 and everyone is off the bandwagon.

The funny part is your assumption that is what's going to happen...based on nothing...

[engie]

What you guys fail to realize is that rebuilds in basketball don't take as long as what we are seeing with Ray.

He has several factors working against him that prolong any rebuild.

A) Never been a head coach - this is huge. If he had been a head coach, you wouldn't of seen him take chances on players like a Daniels or the kid from Findley Prep and yes Dawg61 we would have a full roster. There would also be some other nuances that he would have learned along the way that would make our program better.

B) No ties to the southeast for recruiting purposes - this is really killing him. If he were a great recruiter, it would alleviate problem A. If he were a great recruiter, we would be channelling great young players into the program and be seeing strides forward instead of going backwards from next to last to dead last.

C) Stricklin saying he has all the time in the world to rebuild. This shit is all on Stricklin here which may have lead to some of Ray's questionable decisions in the first place. When you feel no pressure to win, that is a very bad thing. Just is. Ask Croom, he thought he had 5 years and would never get fired.

When you add A, B, and C up you get at minimum a 4-5 year rebuild when a 1-2 year rebuild in basketball is usually all you need unless you are on Probation, your program was rocked with a murder scandal or your AD blows up the program.

Jibber Jabber...

Show me a 2nd year rebuild from a bottom feeder program in the SEC in the past decade. Please. Should be easy to do -- since it's so easy to accomplish -- and it "doesn't take 2+ years to rebuild in basketball".

Fact is, every comparable situation -- has shown comparable results to what Ray has had thusfar. You can spin the shit out of that -- but you literally can't come up with a SINGLE EXAMPLE backing your position. While we've shown numerous examples with name coaches at name programs that had to follow the exact same blueprint we are following out of the abyss.

You say stupid shit like "Pearl will be in the NCAA's in year 2" -- you don't even deserve responses to your obviously emotional and laxidasically thought out position...

[MarketingBully01]

I keep seeing this- but nobody can name one other than Kentucky that took just a year or so when the team lost 4-5 starters and had major roster change

Grant did it at Alabama. First year no post season, second year NIT, third year NCAA. Very solid progress. Could he sustain it? No but that is an example of a three year trajectory of progress. AND Alabama wants to get rid of him because he had one losing season but had 3 20+ win seasons. I would take Anthony Grant in a heart beat here.

I don't see how anyone that was logical could say what Ray put out there his second season was progress. We went from next to last to dead last and both years featured 12 game losing streaks. You would really have to be reaching to say progress was made.

[MarketingBully01]

Sigh, your basis of hope is based off nothing Engie.

[MarketingBully01]

Jibber Jabber...

Show me a 2nd year rebuild from a bottom feeder program in the SEC in the past decade. Please. Should be easy to do -- since it's so easy to accomplish -- and it "doesn't take 2+ years to rebuild in basketball".

Fact is, every comparable situation -- has shown comparable results to what Ray has had thusfar. You can spin the shit out of that -- but you literally can't come up with a SINGLE EXAMPLE backing your position. While we've shown numerous examples with name coaches at name programs that had to follow the exact same blueprint we are following out of the abyss.

You say stupid shit like "Pearl will be in the NCAA's in year 2" -- you don't even deserve responses to your obviously emotional and laxidasically thought out position...

How was anything I said there not true? He had never had head coaching xperience, he had no recruiting ties to the southeast, and Stricklin said he had all the time in the world to rebuild. All of those points are true. You are the one not making any sense here.

[Coach34]

Grant did it at Alabama. .

Grant inherited 3 starters that averaged double figures in the SEC

Try aGAIN

[MarketingBully01]

Jibber Jabber...

Show me a 2nd year rebuild from a bottom feeder program in the SEC in the past decade. Please. Should be easy to do -- since it's so easy to accomplish -- and it "doesn't take 2+ years to rebuild in basketball".

Fact is, every comparable situation -- has shown comparable results to what Ray has had thusfar. You can spin the shit out of that -- but you literally can't come up with a SINGLE EXAMPLE backing your position. While we've shown numerous examples with name coaches at name programs that had to follow the exact same blueprint we are following out of the abyss.

You say stupid shit like "Pearl will be in the NCAA's in year 2" -- you don't even deserve responses to your obviously emotional and laxidasically thought out position...

Pearl has never had a losing record anywhere he has been. He has a fun up tempo aggressive offense that recruits itself. Pearl will get players there and he will win there.

[engie]

Pearl has never had a losing record anywhere he has been. He has a fun up tempo aggressive offense that recruits itself. Pearl will get players there and he will win there.

So, you'll ban yourself when he has a losing record next year, correct?

Pearl has never had to rebuild from shit. He always took jobs smartly before -- and built onto talent in good situations. He was desperate this time -- and it'll show for a couple of years.

[MarketingBully01]

Grant inherited 3 starters that averaged double figures in the SEC

Try aGAIN

John Brady at LSU and that team was on probation and he had them in the NCAA tourney in year 3 and made progress his first two years.

[MarketingBully01]

No, I never said that. Shit you are just as terrible a poster as the ones you say you don't like to begin with.

[engie]

Sigh, your basis of hope is based off nothing Engie.

Based "off" nothing?

You are hopeless. I've shown player by player improvement multiple times. I've shown score improvement across the league in our games vs #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, etc... I've shown overall scoring improvement by us. I've CLEARLY DEFINED all of that -- while you bring jibber jabber -- and it's in my best interest to quit clicking "view post" to dumb myself down against such a helplessly emotional point of view...

What's "based off nothing" is your assertion that we suddenly stop showing improvement next year -- when we have actual depth across the board and the players have all shown improvement constantly. Do you know how stupid that sounds? Actually, I already know the answer -- because you keep spouting it...

[engie]

John Brady at LSU and that team was on probation and he had them in the NCAA tourney in year 3 and made progress his first two years.

9-19
12-15
first 2 years
Fire his ass!!11!1

NVM that it was 15 years ago and in a completely different era than we are currently in. But glad to know you've got all this supporting evidence that Pearl is dancing next year -- and that it takes less than 2 years to rebuild a program from rock bottom -- that you only had to go back 15 years to find a (failing) example**

[engie]

No, I never said that. Shit you are just as terrible a poster as the ones you say you don't like to begin with.

You claimed he'll be an NCAA team by year 2. That almost never happens from a losing record in the first year of a rebuild. You also said that "he's never had a losing record anywhere he's been." So it's no stretch to say you expect him to have a winning record in year 1. Fact is -- I'm calling your bluff in that you don't actually believe half of the shit you are spewing. And you've made that obvious...

But keep backtracking... Gonna need a brand new field from all the different places you've stuck that goalpost in this thread.

Better yet -- don't bother. Now that I've sufficiently made myself dumber by attempting reason with you again today, I'm done with it. Have fun with your careless and consistently changing agenda... I won't be viewing it anymore.

[MarketingBully01]

You claimed he'll be an NCAA team by year 2. That almost never happens from a losing record in the first year of a rebuild -- so it's no stretch to say you expect him to have a winning record in year 1.

But keep backtracking... Gonna need a brand new field from all the different places you've stuck that goalpost.

Better yet -- don't bother. Now that I've sufficiently made myself dumber by attempting reason with you again today, I'm done with it. Have fun with your careless and consistently changing agenda... I won't be viewing it anymore.

Fine by me! Let's just make a pact to never respond to either of our posts. You make this board very unenjoyable and not because of any points or crap you make but because of your attitude.

[Raytoraid83]

So, you'll ban yourself when he has a losing record next year, correct?

Pearl has never had to rebuild from shit. He always took jobs smartly before -- and built onto talent in good situations. He was desperate this time -- and it'll show for a couple of years.

There's a very good chance two of the three indiana transfers end up at auburn.

[MarketingBully01]

You claimed he'll be an NCAA team by year 2. That almost never happens from a losing record in the first year of a rebuild. You also said that "he's never had a losing record anywhere he's been." So it's no stretch to say you expect him to have a winning record in year 1. Fact is -- I'm calling your bluff in that you don't actually believe half of the shit you are spewing. And you've made that obvious...

But keep backtracking... Gonna need a brand new field from all the different places you've stuck that goalpost in this thread.

Better yet -- don't bother. Now that I've sufficiently made myself dumber by attempting reason with you again today, I'm done with it. Have fun with your careless and consistently changing agenda... I won't be viewing it anymore.

And to think this shit all started because I thought Frank Martin inherited less to comparable talent then Rick Ray did.

Look, I don't think Pearl will have a winning record next year but it is possible given his track record that he will be .500 make progress and possible NiT in year 2 and NCAA tourney in year 3. What I do know is Auburn will see the NCAA tourney before we will and that is pathetic given the two programs histories.

Ray did not get a bottom feeder when he got the MSU job and if we had hired smartly we might have NCAA tourney aspiristions next year instead of okay this is the end of the rebuild. This is all I am saying here as this thread has gotten way out of control by posters who obviously have a completely different agenda.

[KB21]

Exactly. He equated Ray to a couple of assistants we've hired who were in line to become head coaches either here or somewhere else. Ray was a career assistant. Does he think we're dumb enough to let that squeeze by without noticing it? Or is he dumb enough to believe that Ray was on the same page as those guys?

Rick Stansbury was a career assistant, but you Stansbury fans don't want to admit that he ran the program into the ground and left it in a hole that will take years to climb out of.

[KB21]

Pearl has never had a losing record anywhere he has been. He has a fun up tempo aggressive offense that recruits itself. Pearl will get players there and he will win there.

.....and then Auburn will be on probation and will have to hire a clean coach that can actually coach like Tennessee did.

[MarketingBully01]

There's a very good chance two of the three indiana transfers end up at auburn.

That wouldn't surprise me one bit. All of that publicity from hiring Pearl more then likely will pay off in transfers so by year 2 he will have built up some talent.

[Raytoraid83]

Rick Stansbury was a career assistant, but you Stansbury fans don't want to admit that he ran the program into the ground and left it in a hole that will take years to climb out of.


.....and then Auburn will be on probation and will have to hire a clean coach that can actually coach like Tennessee did.


Please stop

[Coach34]

John Brady at LSU and that team was on probation and he had them in the NCAA tourney in year 3 and made progress his first two years.

Brady was still left starters like Earl, Maurice Carter, and Rogers Washington.

Try aGAIN.

[C222]

Quick question C222, were you happy with the Stricklin coaching search and him eventually coming to the decision that Rick Ray was the right man for the job?

I, like most people, had never heard of Ray when he was hired. I do have a little knowledge of the coaching search and I know that Scott had a hard time trying to get anyone to take our job due to the state of our program at the time of the search. I don't know everyone he went after but I do know a few and I do know that none of them wanted the job.

Having said that, I am going to support Ray and give him a chance to rebuild the program. I don't want the guy to fail just so I can say "See I told you we shouldn't have fired Stans." That group does nothing but hurt our program.

The crap about Frank Martin is just ridiculous. He never had to rebuild anywhere, but because he has been a head coach, he gets more years than Ray? Makes no sense.

You can win at MSU and if Ray doesn't, someone else will.

[MarketingBully01]

I, like most people, had never heard of Ray when he was hired. I do have a little knowledge of the coaching search and I know that Scott had a hard time trying to get anyone to take our job due to the state of our program at the time of the search. I don't know everyone he went after but I do know a few and I do know that none of them wanted the job.

Having said that, I am going to support Ray and give him a chance to rebuild the program. I don't want the guy to fail just so I can say "See I told you we shouldn't have fired Stans." That group does nothing but hurt our program.

The crap about Frank Martin is just ridiculous. He never had to rebuild anywhere, but because he has been a head coach, he gets more years than Ray? Makes no sense.

You can win at MSU and if Ray doesn't, someone else will.

C222, this is a post I can get behind. I support MSU and don't want Ray to fail either. In fact, I think if Ray has a crappy season next year it will rip the fanbase apart because I agree with Coach that he will get 4 years regardless because Stricklin set this up for four years and probably gave him his word on it as well.

I think if everyone would just realize we are all MSU fans we can still disagree but keep it civil.

Thanks for your honest well thought out post to my question.

[tcdog70]

That wouldn't surprise me one bit. All of that publicity from hiring Pearl more then likely will pay off in transfers so by year 2 he will have built up some talent.

You can't discuss with the Ray lovers, If you make them look bad they will ban. Engie's use of jibber jabber is amusing. Him and 34 are masters of jibber jabber and spin. They are actually decent posters on baseball and football, i guess their hate for Stansbury make them feel like they are ray's guardian angels. And woe be unto anyone that points out what a cluster ****(notice i didn't use Dumpster fire) the Ray hiring has been. Let's put Stansbury behind us and just look at the Ray error for what it is. SS said our Basketball program was low priority, and we are going to run it on the cheap. How stupid is that-please fire his ass and hire Joe dean Jr.

Engie has already spouted off about how much money we are going to make-so how about let's spend some on round ball?

[tcdog70]

Brady was still left starters like Earl, Maurice Carter, and Rogers Washington.

Try aGAIN.

You are correct, and Brady also had HC experience and a staff full of great recruiters, who knew how to coach and recruit in the South---Damn , we could have Hired Brady or Pierre or Kermit--all responsible for LSU's trip to the final four. But no, we hire a Clemson asst whose teams were 21-29. Shit-makes perfect sense.

[TimberBeast]

You can't discuss with the Ray lovers, If you make them look bad they will ban. Engie's use of jibber jabber is amusing. Him and 34 are masters of jibber jabber and spin. They are actually decent posters on baseball and football, i guess their hate for Stansbury make them feel like they are ray's guardian angels. And woe be unto anyone that points out what a cluster ****(notice i didn't use Dumpster fire) the Ray hiring has been. Let's put Stansbury behind us and just look at the Ray error for what it is. SS said our Basketball program was low priority, and we are going to run it on the cheap. How stupid is that-please fire his ass and hire Joe dean Jr.

Engie has already spouted off about how much money we are going to make-so how about let's spend some on round ball?

Great post.

[smootness]

If anyone thinks there is such a thing in our fanbase right now as a 'Ray lover,' then they are leaning far too strongly to the other side.

If someone constitutes another's opinion that we still need to give Ray more time (more than 2 years, which almost every new hire everywhere in every sport gets) as being a 'Ray lover,' then what does that say about how far you are to the other side?

[MarketingBully01]

If anyone thinks there is such a thing in our fanbase right now as a 'Ray lover,' then they are leaning far too strongly to the other side.

If someone constitutes another's opinion that we still need to give Ray more time (more than 2 years, which almost every new hire everywhere in every sport gets) as being a 'Ray lover,' then what does that say about how far you are to the other side?

Smoot, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Based on Stricklin's words and interviews, Ray is getting four years regardless. That is why I hope Ray is successful next year. The alternative would be too painful to watch.

[Coach34]

Smoot, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Based on Stricklin's words and interviews, Ray is getting four years regardless.

I been trying to tell ya'll that. He is getting 4 years- even if he goes 15-16

[MarketingBully01]

I been trying to tell ya'll that. He is getting 4 years- even if he goes 15-16

I always believed you especially since the Ray experiment was all Stricklin's brain child.

[mic]

I'd rather have our 4 NCAA appearances and 3 NIT appearances in that time frame. This is just stupid. And I will address the other parts in the next post on why I think Ray had more talent to work with then Frank Martin.

I was just showing how stupid you all sound when you say that RR shouldn't be getting paid what he is.. He is already the lowest paid coach in the league.. And he will stay that way unless he wins In year 3 and 4..
And if you think RR had more talent than Frank Martin then you are the stupid one. Hell Frank had much more talent this year and only won 2 more games.. And yes we had more success over the past 10 years than USCe , but you all act like we were a top 20 sweet 16 team every year .. We weren't. We should have been with the talent, but we weren't..
Stans last 8 years he won 10+ SEC games once.. Our record was good because we played a cupcake OOC schedule...

[MarketingBully01]

I was just showing how stupid you all sound when you say that RR shouldn't be getting paid what he is.. He is already the lowest paid coach in the league.. And he will stay that way unless he wins In year 3 and 4..
And if you think RR had more talent than Frank Martin then you are the stupid one. Hell Frank had much more talent this year and only won 2 more games.. And yes we had more success over the past 10 years than USCe , but you all act like we were a top 20 sweet 16 team every year .. We weren't. We should have been with the talent, but we weren't..
Stans last 8 years he won 10+ SEC games once.. Our record was good because we played a cupcake OOC schedule...

Frank brought in his own talent this last year. We were only talking about the 2012-2013 year. Anything after that was on Ray and Martin.

[Coach34]

And if he goes 15-16....I'll be in front of the line calling for his head as I push CoastGezzer's wheel chair doing it. No excuses next year to not have at the minimum a winning record

[ghostofjackie]

Wish someone would ask him point blank about MSU-A&M branding, specifically jerseys.

The comment about hiring assistants for financial purposes was chicken shit. I'm ok with hiring assistants, that's not the issue here. But that's a ridiculous comment considering mid-major HC's make 1/4 what Ray does. USM's coach is 1000000x the coach Ray is and he makes a hair over $200,000. Ray made $1,000,000 out of the gate.

He said he can't hire a proven coach for "financial purposes". Well, I will NOT renew my season tickets next year because of "financial purposes". It's been fun....

[HoopsDawg]

And if he goes 15-16....I'll be in front of the line calling for his head as I push CoastGezzer's wheel chair doing it. No excuses next year to not have at the minimum a winning record

meh, he can schedule 12 or 13 wins like he did this year. He needs to go at least 7-11 in the SEC. That's not asking too much with 4 returning starters, 2.5 recruiting classes, and a full roster.

[HoopsDawg]

I was just showing how stupid you all sound when you say that RR shouldn't be getting paid what he is.. He is already the lowest paid coach in the league.. And he will stay that way unless he wins In year 3 and 4..
...

Ray wouldn't have taken the job for 750K a year? We couldn't use that extra 500K it would have saved us our first 2 years? Or the 1 million it would have saves us over the 4 year contract?

[quickstrike2]

It seems to me that a lot of our fan base is either, PRO Rick Ray(mainly because they were so anti Stans) or ANTI Rick Ray(mainly because they were so pro Stans.) The rest (I fall in here) that are neutral on the matter are classified into one of those categories if they say negative or positive towards Ray.

[mic]

Frank brought in his own talent this last year. We were only talking about the 2012-2013 year. Anything after that was on Ray and Martin.

Exactly. Back to my point as to which fan base should be more pissed.
USCe or MSU.. based on W/L , salaries, coaches resume, ect.. If Frank Martin would have been hired here at MSU and he had the record he has now after year 2 at USCe are you as pissed about the hire as you are with RR..?? Just goes to show that having to rebuild a program takes a while to do even if you are a coach with the resume Frank has..

I am just like everyone else, if RR doesn't win next year I will be the first wanting a change. And if he is still not winning in year 4 he is gone, but the program will be much more attractive to the next guy than it was when RR got the gig. We all just have to hope and pray that SS makes the right hire at that time.

[mic]

meh, he can schedule 12 or 13 wins like he did this year. He needs to go at least 7-11 in the SEC. That's not asking too much with 4 returning starters, 2.5 recruiting classes, and a full roster.

That's True he needs to. Stans did that basically every year, cupcake OOc schedule and go 9-7 8-8 in league play and was considered the greatest ever..

[Coach34]

meh, he can schedule 12 or 13 wins like he did this year. He needs to go at least 7-11 in the SEC. That's not asking too much with 4 returning starters, 2.5 recruiting classes, and a full roster.

I agree...do it the Stands way- easy OOC then win about 8 maybe 9 in conference

[HoopsDawg]

It seems to me that a lot of our fan base is either, PRO Rick Ray(mainly because they were so anti Stans) or ANTI Rick Ray(mainly because they were so pro Stans.) The rest (I fall in here) that are neutral on the matter are classified into one of those categories if they say negative or positive towards Ray.

I felt it was time for Stans to go. I was not happy with Stricklin for the hire or the hiring process. I was willing to give Ray a chance. So far, I have been disappointed. There have been some good things and some red flags too. But mainly, I am concerned with his recruiting. Other than Houston, we don't have a lot of help coming in.

[smootness]

It seems to me that a lot of our fan base is either, PRO Rick Ray(mainly because they were so anti Stans) or ANTI Rick Ray(mainly because they were so pro Stans.) The rest (I fall in here) that are neutral on the matter are classified into one of those categories if they say negative or positive towards Ray.

I'm pro-Rick Ray in the sense that I'm going to support him because he is our basketball coach and I want him to do well. I don't see how that makes me a 'Ray lover' or someone who will defend him against all logic. I'm still in 'wait and see' mode on whether or not I think he'll work out long-term, but I'm going to fully support him until I decide he won't get it done.

I wish our entire fanbase was pro-Rick Ray.

[smootness]

Other than Houston, we don't have a lot of help coming in.

I see a lot of people who like Houston, and I hope he's good obviously, but I think Ndoye and Black have the chance to be better than Houston.

[HoopsDawg]

I see a lot of people who like Houston, and I hope he's good obviously, but I think Ndoye and Black have the chance to be better than Houston.

That's somewhat ridiculous. Ndoye didn't earn his starting position until mid-way thru his senior year of high school. He can rest Ware and grab a few boards, but I don't expect much production. I have hopes for Black since apparently he improved at IMG, but he was extremely raw in high school. His single digit scoring average has been well documented. Houston, on the other hand, is first team All-State and has performed well in summer circuits. The problem with Houston is that he doesn't address our most dire need which is someone who can knock down an outside shot.

[SheltonChoked]

I'll back Engie up with Published numbers for the SEC network then.

ATT and Dish network have set the monthly rate for carriage fees on the SECNetwork. They have also set the package level for the Network (equal to ESPN2's distribution, ~97 Million households)

Doing the math on that ~30 million households in the SEC footprint * $1.3 = $39,000,000 per month for the SEC region

~ 67 million households for the rest of the US *$.25 = $16,750,000 per month

Total revenue = $55,750,000 per month = $669,000,000 per year

Asumme the SEC only gets 50% and each school gets a equal split, that's $23,900,000 extra per school. That's in year 1, assuming ESPN and the SEC are 50/50 partners. I'm betting its more 75/25 for the league. that moves the number in year 1 to $35,000,000.

Add that ($35MM) to the numbers published above ($62) and you get to $100MM pretty fast (actually $97MM).

[Coach34]

That's somewhat ridiculous. Ndoye didn't earn his starting position until mid-way thru his senior year of high school. .

On the #1 ranked team in the country

[tcdog70]

I'm pro-Rick Ray in the sense that I'm going to support him because he is our basketball coach and I want him to do well. I don't see how that makes me a 'Ray lover' or someone who will defend him against all logic. I'm still in 'wait and see' mode on whether or not I think he'll work out long-term, but I'm going to fully support him until I decide he won't get it done.

I wish our entire fanbase was pro-Rick Ray.

Smoot , face it you were a Croom lover and you are a Ray lover. I didn't have to wait and see on Croom and Ray Charles could see that Ray ain't going to get it done.I'm going to support MSU basketball. Ray not so much

[thf24]

You can't discuss with the Ray lovers,

This is getting comical. I have seen literally no one say that Ray is clearly going to succeed (unlike you and many others who have stated that he is clearly going to fail); nothing more than a "wait and see" approach and expression of support for the program. Yet you and others keep hammering this idea that anyone who hasn't already denounced him as a failure is a "Ray lover." It's absolutely absurd.

[smootness]

Smoot , face it you were a Croom lover and you are a Ray lover. I didn't have to wait and see on Croom and Ray Charles could see that Ray ain't going to get it done.I'm going to support MSU basketball. Ray not so much

I definitely did support Croom for too long. I was wrong on that. I don't think that has anything to do with Ray...in fact, I learned a lesson from that and won't support a coach for so long again if the writing is clearly on the wall. After 2 years of what Ray inherited, I just don't think the writing is on the wall yet.

[smootness]

That's somewhat ridiculous. Ndoye didn't earn his starting position until mid-way thru his senior year of high school. He can rest Ware and grab a few boards, but I don't expect much production. I have hopes for Black since apparently he improved at IMG, but he was extremely raw in high school. His single digit scoring average has been well documented. Houston, on the other hand, is first team All-State and has performed well in summer circuits. The problem with Houston is that he doesn't address our most dire need which is someone who can knock down an outside shot.

This is an area where I think we're just all entitled to our own opinions until we see any of them in college. Ndoye eventually ended up starting for the top HS team in the country - you see it as a negative, I see it as a positive. I don't think Houston would have started for that Findlay Prep team.

And I think the documentation of Black's single-digit scoring average was just wrong. I thought it had been established that Dawg61 was dead wrong and that he averaged double digits last year and is doing so again this year. Regardless, I like the potential I see from him in his recent highlights. He has more offensive skill than I thought and will definitely be able to rebound like crazy and should defend well.

My reservation with Houston is his shooting. I don't know that it's bad, I just don't know if it's good, either. I think he can be a productive college player even without a good mid- to long-range shot, but I think both Black and Ndoye have the potential to be very good post guys for us.

[notsofarawaydawg]

We could hire Scott Drew for $2 mill a year. He makes $1.8 at Baylor. Baylor just made the Sweet 16 AGAIN under Drew. His third time being there at a school that had a player get MURDERED by another player. Drew has two Elite 8s in those 3 Sweet 16's. He wanted our job when Stansbury got fired. Still haven't seen him get in trouble with the NCAA which is why everyone says no to him. I just see him destroying 3 seeds in the tournament and still playing as of today.

Can't afford to pay that when you don't buy tickets because you are still butthurt over Stains.

[Dawg61]

Show me a 2nd year rebuild from a bottom feeder program in the SEC in the past decade.

Um who you calling a bottom feeder program bud? This is your new idea to buy Ray more time huh. MSU is the 4th winningest SEC program in basketball for the last TWENTY YEARS. We are Tennessee in basketball. They are just above us in wins at number 3 but leaving us in the dust after these last two years. Guess how many Final Fours Tennessee has been to in their ENTIRE HISTORY of basketball? A big fat ZERO. Quit trying to lower the expectations we as a MSU fanbase had when we all called for Stansbury's head. I WILL NOT let you and your buds continue to pull down expectations at MSU to fit Stricklin's budget. Y'all are just being SELFISH because you want all the money to go into the new baseball stadium. MSU basketball CAN NOT be placed #3 in the pecking order. It must be treated as an equal #1. Those are the rules. The competition forces it to be that way.

[Dawg61]

SS said our Basketball program was low priority, and we are going to run it on the cheap. How stupid is that-please fire his ass and hire Joe dean Jr.

Engie has already spouted off about how much money we are going to make-so how about let's spend some on round ball?

A-****ING-MEN!!! +100000000000000000000

[Coach34]

Um who you calling a bottom feeder program bud? This is your new idea to buy Ray more time huh. MSU is the 4th winningest SEC program in basketball for the last TWENTY YEARS.

We have 2 NCAA's the last 9 years...spare me our greatness

[Dawg61]

We have 2 NCAA's the last 9 years...spare me our greatness

And we fired Stansbury because of it. We had high expectations. If Stansbury makes the NCAA just one more time we look past the rest of the BS and he keeps his job. You know it. I know it. That's expectations. Y'all can go ahead and quit trying to pull them down to fit Stricklin's cheap wallet.

[Real Deal]

I would think 3 years is a minimum for any coaching job, unless there is monumental failure off the field/court.

I personally think calling Ray a failure at this point is asinine. Is he better than Stans? That, my friend, is a different debate. But we still don't know the final answer.

[C222]

And we fired Stansbury because of it. We had high expectations. If Stansbury makes the NCAA just one more time we look past the rest of the BS and he keeps his job. You know it. I know it. That's expectations. Y'all can go ahead and quit trying to pull them down to fit Stricklin's cheap wallet.

But he couldn't... With a 4 year starter at PG, 2 NBA first round draft picks, and the #1 high school player in the country.

[Coach34]

NCAA appearances the last 10 years:

Florida- 8
Kentucky- 8
Tenn- 7
Vandy- 5
LSU- 3 (2 SEC titles)
State-3
Alabama-3
UPig- 3
Georgia- 2
Ol Miss- 1
Auburn-0
SC- 0

We're in a 4-way tie for 5th...but LSU's 2 Regular season titles trump us the last 10 years....that's the last decade

[Coach34]

And we fired Stansbury because of it. We had high expectations. If Stansbury makes the NCAA just one more time we look past the rest of the BS and he keeps his job. You know it. I know it. That's expectations. Y'all can go ahead and quit trying to pull them down to fit Stricklin's cheap wallet.

Stands got fired because of off the court issues- not for losing

[Dawg61]

But he couldn't... With a 4 year starter at PG, 2 NBA first round draft pics, and the #1 high school player in the country.

And I was second in line in the "Fire Stansbury" one. Glad he's gone. Just didn't expect our AD to go super cheap and put basketball at the bottom of the things to do list.

[Dawg61]

Stands got fired because of off the court issues- not for losing

WRONG! If he goes to the NCAA just once more he's still the coach. You know it. Quit acting like you don't.

[Dawg61]

NCAA appearances the last 10 years:

Florida- 8
Kentucky- 8
Tenn- 7
Vandy- 5
LSU- 3 (2 SEC titles)
State-3
Alabama-3
UPig- 3
Georgia- 2
Ol Miss- 1
Auburn-0
SC- 0

We're in a 4-way tie for 5th...but LSU's 2 Regular season titles trump us the last 10 years....that's the last decade

And we fired him because he wasn't meeting EXPECTATIONS. Didn't we just cover this?

[Coach34]

WRONG! If he goes to the NCAA just once more he's still the coach. You know it. Quit acting like you don't.

No.

Stands was told if he was going to remain coach- there were some things that were going to have to change-he refused. Which we knew he would. Stands was not going to remain coach regardless.

[Coach34]

And we fired him because he wasn't meeting EXPECTATIONS. Didn't we just cover this?

I'm arguing your point that we have been the 4th best program in the SEC- thats bullshit

[Dawg61]

I'm arguing your point that we have been the 4th best program in the SEC- thats bullshit

You're only going back 10 years and you're only looking at tourney appearances. We've already done this research. Go back ten more years and add up most wins for all 20. MSU was #4 right behind Tennessee. I'm sure we've now slipped since Brick took over. Wins are wins and MSU pre Brick was the 4th winningest program in the SEC 12.

[Coach34]

You're only going back 10 years and you're only looking at tourney appearances. We've already done this research. Go back ten more years and add up most wins for all 20. MSU was #4 right behind Tennessee. I'm sure we've now slipped since Brick took over. Wins are wins and MSU pre Brick was the 4th winningest program in the SEC 12.

wins dont matter- especially with the easy schedules we have played. NCAA Tourneys matter. An 18 win team can get in over a 20 win team.

NCAA Tourneys are what programs are built on- especially the 30 years since the Tourney expanded...now NIT's and stuff are good fluff and are good rewards for decent seasons- but NCAA Tourneys define your program

[Real Deal]

wins dont matter- especially with the easy schedules we have played. NCAA Tourneys matter. An 18 win team can get in over a 20 win team.
He's got you here Dawgs61. Getting to the tourney is the absolute best way to define your program outside of straight up national championships, which only a few teams can boast. It takes into account what your team did over the course of the whole season and takes out hot runs, which skew numbers.

Probably the truest thing I've ever seen Coach34 post.

[Dawg61]

wins dont matter- especially with the easy schedules we have played. NCAA Tourneys matter. An 18 win team can get in over a 20 win team.

NCAA Tourneys are what programs are built on- especially the 30 years since the Tourney expanded...now NIT's and stuff are good fluff and are good rewards for decent seasons- but NCAA Tourneys define your program

Total wins AND SEC ONLY wins MSU the last 20 years before Brick is the 4th winningest program and probably in tourney appearances too. Keep pulling us down though.

[Coach34]

Total wins AND SEC ONLY wins MSU the last 20 years before Brick is the 4th winningest program and probably in tourney appearances too. Keep pulling us down though.

NCAA's the last 20 years:

Kentucky- 18
Florida- 15
Tenn- 11
Arkansas- 9
State 8
Vandy- 7
Bama- 7
Georgia- 6
Old Misses- 6
LSU- 5
Auburn- 3
SC- 3

We're 5th when you include our best 10 year run from 1995-2004

[Dawg61]

Ok then our expectations should be on par with Arkansas, Bama and Vandy's. They aren't.

[smootness]

Ok then our expectations should be on par with Arkansas, Bama and Vandy's. They aren't.

You're equating 'Expectations in Year 2 of Rick Ray's tenure' with 'Mississippi State's basketball expectations'. The two are not equal.

Ultimately, Rick Ray's expectations are identical to Rick Stansbury's. No one is arguing any differently. The difference in opinion comes when asking when Rick Ray's expectations become identical to Stansbury's. I think any logical person understands that it can't be in year two after what Ray inherited.

I don't think the expectations can be the same in year 3, either. Having said that, I am in no way arguing that Ray should be given a pass for year 3. We definitely have to show that we're making progress and make people believe we are getting to where we need to be. I think Ray's expectations should be fully identical to Stans in year 5...but once again, in no way does he get a pass through year 5. If he isn't showing the necessary improvement, he shouldn't get past year 3...or past year 4 if we do show some improvement next year.

But come year 5, if he's still here, his expectations will be 100% of what Stans' were...the expectations that he didn't meet.

[Coach34]

You're equating 'Expectations in Year 2 of Rick Ray's tenure' with 'Mississippi State's basketball expectations'. The two are not equal.

Ultimately, Rick Ray's expectations are identical to Rick Stansbury's. No one is arguing any differently. The difference in opinion comes when asking when Rick Ray's expectations become identical to Stansbury's. I think any logical person understands that it can't be in year two after what Ray inherited.

This all day

Richard Williams took until Year 5 to make the NCAA's
Stands took until Year 4 to make the NCAA's

And both of these coaches had been at State recruiting the teams they inherited. Ray's expectations get higher every year now. Rebuilding is officially over

[engie]

I'm at Stansbury expectations in year 3...

I'm ready to be dancing again. That said, I won't be ready to fire him for making the NIT this year and will still be convinced we're going in the right direction -- but I want consistent progress going forward until we're back being a 9-12 win SEC team consistently...

I'll stay on the fence if we're borderline NIT and come up on the short side of it. Anything less -- I'm ready for him to go. Anything more -- I'm ready to extend him...

[MarketingBully01]

NCAA's the last 20 years:

Kentucky- 18
Florida- 15
Tenn- 11
Arkansas- 9
State 8
Vandy- 7
Bama- 7
Georgia- 6
Old Misses- 6
LSU- 5
Auburn- 3
SC- 3

We're 5th when you include our best 10 year run from 1995-2004

Gee, I didn't realize that fifth in the SEC over 20 years equated to a bottom feeder team. That is news to me.

[War Machine Dawg]

I just want to know how the hell this went from a thread about Stricklin to ANOTHER pissing contest about Ray. The same old shit is getting old from both sides. Can we just table it until next January?

[MarketingBully01]

Richard Williams took until Year 5 to make the NCAA's
Stands took until Year 4 to make the NCAA's

And both of these coaches had been at State recruiting the teams they inherited. Ray's expectations get higher every year now. Rebuilding is officially over

Yep, Stans his first team should have been in the NCAA tournament but was robbed. His second team in 1999-2000 lacked the piece he was wanting to build around (Jonathan Bender) and had JB made it to campus he would have had an NCAA tourney team his second year.

[MarketingBully01]

I just want to know how the hell this went from a thread about Stricklin to ANOTHER pissing contest about Ray. The same old shit is getting old from both sides. Can we just table it until next January?

Because up until this point, Stricklin's biggest profile hire is Rick Ray. I think Stricklin's legacy good or bad will be linked with this hire in the long run. Especially if he gives Ray the full 4 years even if Ray has a bad season next year.

[engie]

I just want to know how the hell this went from a thread about Stricklin to ANOTHER pissing contest about Ray. The same old shit is getting old from both sides. Can we just table it until next January?

That's wishful thinking -- as much as the majority of us would love to see it, the idiots have their minds made up and are going to raise hell about it from now on every single time they think they have an opportunity -- and after making the overall reading experience of the board miserable for over a year -- will disappear or catch amnesia if Ray turns things around. None of the ones that are overrunning the board are even capable of putting a comprehensive viewpoint together -- and I'm like a fly to the light when I see the holes in the logic...

Trying to block the idiots -- and would be ahead of the game now if everyone else would do the same -- or at least not quote them where I actually have to see what they post.

[MarketingBully01]

That's wishful thinking -- as much as the majority of us would love to see it, the idiots have their minds made up and are going to raise hell about it from now on every single time they think they have an opportunity -- and after making the board miserable for over a year -- will disappear or catch amnesia if Ray turns things around.

One positive is that it's given me the chance to weed out and block the total idiots -- making my overall reading experience here so much more enjoyable outside of quotes where I still see their ridiculous posts. It's like a fly to the light once I have to actually view the posts...

Ironically, WMD is talking about you as well I am sure...

[MarketingBully01]

I just want to know how the hell this went from a thread about Stricklin to ANOTHER pissing contest about Ray. The same old shit is getting old from both sides. Can we just table it until next January?

I agree that this thread is now rediculousy long and apologize to you for you having to go through this thread.

I think this thread wouldn't have been so long had both sides not poked at each other and the thread would have ended more then likely this morning if not for Engie's incessant poking and calling other people's viewpoints idiotic. I can take different people's view points but for some reason Engie just rubs me the wrong way.

I can take him using facts and figures to prove his viewpoint however he has an attitude that just rubs me the wrong way.

So board I apologize for dragging this thread out way too long. I apologize to Coach, Smoot, and Mic and just will say we agree to disagree on certain viewpoints. We are all bulldogs here. Let's all get along. I will even say that I will not comment again about Ray until next basketball season. Deal?

[tcdog70]

The truth is 34 and Engie are the posters who won't let the Stansbury bashing go away.I would love to just post about Rick Ray and what he has done in two years and on into the future. Stansbury is over, quit bashing Him and people will quit rebuking your post. How about let's just talk Ray.

I think 34 and Engie know that by bashing Stansbury they will create some long threads. It is more about their egos and showing how message board hip they are.

[Dawg61]

So basically he gets real expectations when the baseball stadium is done. Gotcha. Hoops is #3 and can't ever hope to compete. That's cool.

[smootness]

So basically he gets real expectations when the baseball stadium is done. Gotcha. Hoops is #3 and can't ever hope to compete. That's cool.

It's not about basketball not being important. It's about giving time to see what Ray can do. We gave Cohen the same time in baseball. But I guess we don't care about baseball. Our program is doomed**

[Dawg61]

It's not about basketball not being important. It's about giving time to see what Ray can do. We gave Cohen the same time in baseball. But I guess we don't care about baseball. Our program is doomed**

Man you are ride or die with Stricklin. That's cool. Seriously that's a great quality to have. Not me. He ****ed us and our basketball program for five years. He can pack before Ray imo.

[MarketingBully01]

Can everyone just end this thread? It is ridiculous. Coach, can you or a moderator lock this thread? Let's just stop replying to this thread and it will go away and die a nice death.

[Coach34]

Man you are ride or die with Stricklin. That's cool. Seriously that's a great quality to have. Not me. He ****ed us and our basketball program for five years. He can pack before Ray imo.

Stricklin will be he awhile whether Rick Ray fails or not