Mississippi State basketball by the (RPI) numbers

[601Dawg]

Current RPI 227 last in the SEC

Current strength of schedule 168 last in the SEC

We have Zero wins vs rpi top 50 teams (0-5) tied with Auburn for least.

We have 1 RPI win vs a top 100 rpi team Ole Miss 89 (1-11) fewest in the SEC

We have 3 rpi wins vs top 200 rpi teams A&M 112, Fla Gulf Coast 150, auburn 164 ( 4-16)

9 of our wins are against RPI 200+ teams we also have a loss to RPI 200+ TCU (0-16 in the. Big 12)
7 of those wins are against teams with an RPI of 300+

We may be winning more this year on paper numbers wise but 7 of those wins are to 7 of the 50 worst teams in D1 basketball.


Have at it Coach and Engie

[Political Hack]

Obamacare is Bush's fault.

[Coach34]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

[tcdog70]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.


After all that has been said and done--"That's all you got" .

[Coach34]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Still waiting on an answer to this...

[Political Hack]

give me just one example of a team that's never had a transfer, suspensions for drugs, or injuries. just one.

[Coach34]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Still waiting on an answer to this...

still waiting...we must have too many ***** poster's around here to answer it...

[Coach34]

give me just one example of a team that's never had a transfer, suspensions for drugs, or injuries. just one.

Good- then it should be easy to name examples of programs that went thru what we did and started winning immediately

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

What program kicks off players on the team for smoking weed? If you don't think all these other players in the SEC don't smoke dope then you are fooling yourself. How many players on State's football team have gotten kicked off for weed? I'm not saying it's right or wrong but football players aren't getting kicked off the team and you know at least some of them are smoking weed as I post this.

[blacklistedbully]

After all that has been said and done--"That's all you got" .

Sounds like a lot to me.

[Coach34]

What program kicks off players on the team for smoking weed? If you don't think all these other players in the SEC don't smoke dope then you are fooling yourself. How many players on State's football team have gotten kicked off for weed? I'm not saying it's right or wrong but football players aren't getting kicked off the team and you know at least some of them are smoking weed as I post this.

Our coaches follow University policy that a player is gone after 3 failed tests. Mullen follows the same rules- Relf, PJ Jones, and others to name a few have missed games due to failed tests. Some players learn and take it seriously- others dont.

[Political Hack]

Good- then it should be easy to name examples of programs that went thru what we did and started winning immediately

Kentucky loses everyone every year. Florida losses a lot. Louisville had a huge injury last year in the tournament and they did ok. OM has drug problems with their team weekly. Every basketball team deals with crap. I do agree we got hit with a perfect storm, but it doesn't change the fact that it only takes five and we aren't anywhere close to five. And even if we were we don't block out, don't shoot well, don't take care of the ball, don't take high percentage shots on offense, can't shoot free throws, have very few guys who can handle the rock, and make little to no sense in our substitution patterns.

Lack of talent can make a lot of things look bad from a coaching perspective, but if Ray isn't slated to sign 3+ immediate starters coming into next season, I don't see why we're wasting years investing into a failed attempt to resurrect the program. If it's "give him one more year" then we may as well fire him now. Nothing will change next season and if we're expecting more then he'll be canned then. It's give him two more years, or fire him now. I see a pretty clear crossroads and I question those who don't see the same.

[Political Hack]

oh... and we're ranked 227.

[preachermatt83]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Still waiting on an answer to this...


IF they had our schedule several of them would have.

[preachermatt83]

Kentucky loses everyone every year. Florida losses a lot. Louisville had a huge injury last year in the tournament and they did ok. OM has drug problems with their team weekly. Every basketball team deals with crap. I do agree we got hit with a perfect storm, but it doesn't change the fact that it only takes five and we aren't anywhere close to five. And even if we were we don't block out, don't shoot well, don't take care of the ball, don't take high percentage shots on offense, can't shoot free throws, have very few guys who can handle the rock, and make little to no sense in our substitution patterns.

Lack of talent can make a lot of things look bad from a coaching perspective, but if Ray isn't slated to sign 3+ immediate starters coming into next season, I don't see why we're wasting years investing into a failed attempt to resurrect the program. If it's "give him one more year" then we may as well fire him now. Nothing will change next season and if we're expecting more then he'll be canned then. It's give him two more years, or fire him now. I see a pretty clear crossroads and I question those who don't see the same.

http://0.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/56/95/7890f6112c0b7925960efaa915a58a56-dropmic3.gif

[Coach34]

Kentucky loses everyone every year. Florida losses a lot. Louisville had a huge injury last year in the tournament and they did ok. OM has drug problems with their team weekly.

You named 3 National Championship programs- you are out of touch with reality.

Name a program similar to ours Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

[Homedawg]

Kentucky signs 5 guys in the top 30 every year. Last year it was 4 of the top 8. Year before 6 of top 41. With all that they managed to make the nit last year. They are in a different situation than us yet they still had a "down" year. Please in the interest of common sense refrain from using uk as an example.

[Intramural All-American]

Kentucky loses everyone every year. Florida losses a lot. Louisville had a huge injury last year in the tournament and they did ok. OM has drug problems with their team weekly. Every basketball team deals with crap. I do agree we got hit with a perfect storm, but it doesn't change the fact that it only takes five and we aren't anywhere close to five. And even if we were we don't block out, don't shoot well, don't take care of the ball, don't take high percentage shots on offense, can't shoot free throws, have very few guys who can handle the rock, and make little to no sense in our substitution patterns.

Lack of talent can make a lot of things look bad from a coaching perspective, but if Ray isn't slated to sign 3+ immediate starters coming into next season, I don't see why we're wasting years investing into a failed attempt to resurrect the program. If it's "give him one more year" then we may as well fire him now. Nothing will change next season and if we're expecting more then he'll be canned then. It's give him two more years, or fire him now. I see a pretty clear crossroads and I question those who don't see the same.

It seriously is laughable that you brought up Kentucky who signs the #1 class every year, Florida who actually does a fantastic job of not losing underclassmen, and Louisville who won the NCAA tourney after losing their 7th man. Good gosh you are an idiot.

We don't need 3+ starters. We need 1 starter to come in next year to start along with Ready, Sword, Thomas, and Ware. I think Houston may be that guy, but I wouldn't be shocked if Rocquez starts. Our problem isn't starting, our problem is giving up one huge run that kills us. That will be helped by just adding quality depth that can be subbed in when the starters are tired or ineffective.

How can you legitimately say nothing will change next year? It may not, but you are setting yourself up to look really dumb if it does because in all reality, you have know clue.

[HailState39110]

Kentucky loses everyone every year. Florida losses a lot. Louisville had a huge injury last year in the tournament and they did ok. OM has drug problems with their team weekly. Every basketball team deals with crap. I do agree we got hit with a perfect storm, but it doesn't change the fact that it only takes five and we aren't anywhere close to five. And even if we were we don't block out, don't shoot well, don't take care of the ball, don't take high percentage shots on offense, can't shoot free throws, have very few guys who can handle the rock, and make little to no sense in our substitution patterns.


Lack of talent can make a lot of things look bad from a coaching perspective, but if Ray isn't slated to sign 3+ immediate starters coming into next season, I don't see why we're wasting years investing into a failed attempt to resurrect the program. If it's "give him one more year" then we may as well fire him now. Nothing will change next season and if we're expecting more then he'll be canned then. It's give him two more years, or fire him now. I see a pretty clear crossroads and I question those who don't see the same.

Ray deserves another year but you are right. The only guy he is bringing in that by all accounts will compete for a starting job is Houston and he will be competing with FTF for that .
I know we will be deeper in the posts with Ndoye . We lose Borchert who is our best 3 ball shooter with no other guys who can knock down a jump shot. I don't see Dunlap or Daniels doing a whole lot next year and are more developmental guys . at best we looking at 7-11 in the league next year which I don't think guarantees Ray a 4th year. If Stricklin brings back Ray for a 4th year after another year like this, his job should be on the line too

[DownwardDawg]

Obamacare is Bush's fault.

I laughed! Haha!!

[Dawg61]

Ready is a walking tampon. He can't put his socks on without getting injured. Ray needs a reliable PG. We still don't have one and won't next year it looks like.

[bobcat91]

Coach and others can laugh this off and give lame explaintions all they want, but this is a disaster and it's not all on Stans. Before anyone asks, yes it was time for him to go, but no one saw Stricklin screwing this up this badly. Ray has a long history of being moved place to place due to one reason--he can't recruit. The first class wasn't on him, but this second one was and he managed to get only one player to contribute when we had to have a full class. This class coming in is no great answer either. We will be better simply because we will have more bodies and more depth, but make no mistake--this has been a catostrophic failure by our AD and Coach. We have gone from an underachieving NIT team to the number 13 team in the conference to the worst team in a very poor SEC. Our watered down schedule makes the window dressing look barely passable and allows folks to CYA. But this is a terrible team to watch and I've seen better pickup games in the old gym than the play I now see on the floor. Our program is in very serious trouble and to laugh it off and make excuses cant hide that.

[Raytoraid83]

Coach and others can laugh this off and give lame explaintions all they want, but this is a disaster and it's not all on Stans. Before anyone asks, yes it was time for him to go, but no one saw Stricklin screwing this up this badly. Ray has a long history of being moved place to place due to one reason--he can't recruit. The first class wasn't on him, but this second one was and he managed to get only one player to contribute when we had to have a full class. This class coming in is no great answer either. We will be better simply because we will have more bodies and more depth, but make no mistake--this has been a catostrophic failure by our AD and Coach. We have gone from an underachieving NIT team to the number 13 team in the conference to the worst team in a very poor SEC. Our watered down schedule makes the window dressing look barely passable and allows folks to CYA. But this is a terrible team to watch and I've seen better pickup games in the old gym than the play I now see on the floor. Our program is in very serious trouble and to laugh it off and make excuses cant hide that.

Good post.

[Coach34]

Good post.

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

[Political Hack]

please give me an example of a single team that wore orange shoe strings, had a one legged player, and a hobbit for a center.

Teams aren't supposed to succumb to the adversity, they're supposed to overcome it. We're not even close.

[Coach34]

Teams aren't supposed to succumb to the adversity, they're supposed to overcome it. We're not even close.

There is a difference in adversity- and your program being nuked.

[Intramural All-American]

So what you are saying is we are having more adversity that anyone else has during Ray's tenure. No one in the nation has had as tough a situation as Ray has, yet you blindly say that he should have been able to overcome it at this point. Why? What he is going through is literally unprecedented. Look, why can't you just accept he will get another year? Everyone has said your complaints will be warranted if this goes on next year. Just relax, enjoy baseball season, and do your best to make us all miserable next season.

[Raytoraid83]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team that kicked 3 off for drugs- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Good question

[smootness]

Ray has a long history of being moved place to place due to one reason--he can't recruit.

You literally just made that up. Congrats.

[Acid mouth]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Coach, I've been reading your posts since well before you were banned from SPS. I think that you are one of the most knowledgable/insightful posters on football. I usually make a point to always read your posts pertaining to football. However, you are completely oblivious when it comes to basketball. You should consider not posting at all on this sport. You are wasting your time trying to spin the RPI #s from the OP. I refuse to criticize coach Ray this year, but next year is fair game. NIT or foot patrol for Ray. I am still scratching my head over this obscure hire. WTF Scott?????

[bobcat91]

You literally just made that up. Congrats.

That's the rap on him. Sorry Mrs Ray if that offends you but please point out the true difference makers he has brought into the program. Answer zero and for those who think we are getting Newman, well you need a mental health evaluation.

[Coach34]

Coach, I've been reading your posts since well before you were banned from SPS. I think that you are one of the most knowledgable/insightful posters on football. I usually make a point to always read your posts pertaining to football. However, you are completely oblivious when it comes to basketball. You should consider not posting at all on this sport. You are wasting your time trying to spin the RPI #s from the OP. I refuse to criticize coach Ray this year, but next year is fair game. NIT or foot patrol for Ray. I am still scratching my head over this obscure hire. WTF Scott?????

Wow- I'm not trying to spin anything. I just keep asking a question that nobody can answer. The fact is that Ray inherited a toxic shitburger and it's going to take a little while to dig out of it.

If we dont see some improvement next year- I'll be in the front of the line giving him shit. But I believe we will see an improved basketball team capable of winning 20 games next year. And when we do- the salt is gonna to be rubbed errywhere

[Coach34]

That's the rap on him. Sorry Mrs Ray if that offends you but please point out the true difference makers he has brought into the program. Answer zero and for those who think we are getting Newman, well you need a mental health evaluation.

Robert Kirby has coached at what- 4 schools in the last 5 years? What does that say about him????

[Political Hack]

the more important question is why are people ok with being the worst team in the league this year and going into next year. I hope they schedule powder puff east west northern state 15 times next year so we can still wins few.

we've gotten worse under Ray. Point. Blank. Period. and there are ZERO signs that we're going to get better. Sign Newman I'll relent. Sign any 2-3 studs who can score and play and I'll relent. It's not rocket science. you need basketball players to play basketball and right now Ray isn't filling his roster with those. A girls scrimmage player and a football walk on were two of our best players in the last game. Happy for them, but that's not a good thing for the state of the program.

[Intramural All-American]

the more important question is why are people ok with being the worst team in the league this year and going into next year. I hope they schedule powder puff east west northern state 15 times next year so we can still wins few.

we've gotten worse under Ray. Point. Blank. Period. and there are ZERO signs that we're going to get better. Sign Newman I'll relent. Sign any 2-3 studs who can score and play and I'll relent. It's not rocket science. you need basketball players to play basketball and right now Ray isn't filling his roster with those. A girls scrimmage player and a football walk on were two of our best players in the last game. Happy for them, but that's not a good thing for the state of the program.

So you are going to continue to bash him right now over things that he cannot do a thing about right now? He can't sign anyone or add anyone right now. Our team is what it is at this point. We suck. No one says differently, but everyone knows it is going to be a struggle the rest of the way out. But you and your ilk start a new thread every single game bashing him.

I guess since you didn't see it the first time I posted. Last year we lost by 40+ 3 times, 30+ 6 times, and 20+ 10 times. This year we have lost by 40+ 0 times, 30+ 0 times, and 20+ 10 times. How can you possibly say we are getting worse? That shows obvious improvement from last year. Not in the wins category obviously, but it shows we are at least climbing somewhat out of the abyss we were in.

[Coach34]

Last year we lost by 40+ 3 times, 30+ 6 times, and 20+ 10 times. This year we have lost by 40+ 0 times, 30+ 0 times, and 20+ 10 times. How can you possibly say we are getting worse? That shows obvious improvement from last year. Not in the wins category obviously, but it shows we are at least climbing somewhat out of the abyss we were in.


Somehow it isnt obvious to people

[CadaverDawg]

So you are going to continue to bash him right now over things that he cannot do a thing about right now? He can't sign anyone or add anyone right now. Our team is what it is at this point. We suck. No one says differently, but everyone knows it is going to be a struggle the rest of the way out. But you and your ilk start a new thread every single game bashing him.

I guess since you didn't see it the first time I posted. Last year we lost by 40+ 3 times, 30+ 6 times, and 20+ 10 times. This year we have lost by 40+ 0 times, 30+ 0 times, and 20+ 10 times. How can you possibly say we are getting worse? That shows obvious improvement from last year. Not in the wins category obviously, but it shows we are at least climbing somewhat out of the abyss we were in.

Not saying I agree with Hack, but this is a very misleading and incorrect post. We played a WAAAAY tougher schedule last year. That's why we got blown out more. Plus, these guys were a year younger.

Look, I hope Ray gets it going...but just because shitty gets a year older and doesn't get blown out as bad, doesn't make them not shitty. They will be better next year bc they're a year older...period. And God help us when guys like Sword graduate. We'll have IJ Glass and a bunch of Tyson Cunninghams running around out there after Ray boots our only 2 decent recruits for smoking a black n mild.

All joking aside though..I'm frustrated at the botched hire. Nothing against Ray bc it's not his fault, but USM and their lack of bball history were able to hire 2 solid head coaches in their last 2 hires...yet MSU had to get an assistant from a team that sucked. Stricklin blew it, and we're all praying somehow Ray can pull a rabbit out of his hat.

[BeardoMSU]

But I believe we will see an improved basketball team capable of winning 20 games next year.

Is that 20 wins via a simple Jack schedule, or because we are actually improving? Because, that matters. This year we are worse than we were last year, but since we've won more games, people have been creamin' their pants about our "upward trajectory".....

And btw, I really think you're over estimating the quality of players we'll be adding next year. Just increasing bodies on the bench won't win games; they have to be able to play. I'll wager a C-note that Noide (sp?) will be a less polished John Riek; if he can play D I'll be happy, though.

For the record: I'm a Rick Ray fan. I think he's a great guy, and he's the kind of guy I want to root for. But this is basketball, and in this game you've got to have talent.

[BeardoMSU]

I guess since you didn't see it the first time I posted. Last year we lost by 40+ 3 times, 30+ 6 times, and 20+ 10 times. This year we have lost by 40+ 0 times, 30+ 0 times, and 20+ 10 times. How can you possibly say we are getting worse? That shows obvious improvement from last year. Not in the wins category obviously, but it shows we are at least climbing somewhat out of the abyss we were in.

This has more to do with dept than it does us "getting better". Last year, we were playing 5 players and a walk-on, and by the second half they were completely gassed. This year, we've been able to rest guys more.

What's the most disheartening to me is our lack of fundamentals. We don't defend once the shot clock gets inside 10sec. We absolutely refuse to box out...and despite popular belief, we're not small down low; Ware is 270+ 6'9" and Collin is what 240 6'8"? Thats not tiny - they should be better at rebounding. We are horrendous at free-throws. And we can not hit jump shots. It is the worst example of basketball I've seen garner the maroon and white.

[TheDogFather]

Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

Still waiting on an answer to this...

The lack of an answer to a stupid question is not proof if anything.

[engie]

The lack of an answer to a stupid question is not proof if anything.

The lack of an answer to a legitimate question shows how ridiculously skewed the viewpoints of you and those like you are. So, yes, it is "proof" of ridiculousness.

Coach is basically saying "you are asking Ray to be best coach in the history of college basketball in his second year". You are asking him to win in a situation where you can't name a single mother ****ing coach in college basketball history that has overcome the amount of adversity Ray has faced that was not of his own doing in year 2.

But the obvious is lost on you -- and has been all along on this. I'm sure my response will be dismissed just as every other argument that has been made against you while you keep beating the same dead horse and constantly failing to accept situational realities.

[Coach34]

The lack of an answer to a legitimate question shows how ridiculously skewed the viewpoints of you and those like you are. So, yes, it is "proof" of ridiculousness.

Coach is basically saying "you are asking Ray to be best coach in the history of college basketball in his second year". You are asking him to win in a situation where you can't name a single mother ****ing coach in college basketball history that has overcome the amount of adversity Ray has faced that was not of his own doing in year 2.

But the obvious is lost on you -- and has been all along on this. I'm sure my response will be dismissed just as every other argument that has been made against you while you keep beating the same dead horse and constantly failing to accept situational realities.

Can't be said any better than that

[Dawgface]

. at best we looking at 7-11 in the league next year which I don't think guarantees Ray a 4th year. If Stricklin brings back Ray for a 4th year after another year like this, his job should be on the line too

If we do that along with winning 10 powder puff ooc teams, he will get a raise and contract extension with what we have coming back. Well...that probably is a stretch but he will certainly get a 4th year. I think he will have to have a similar season next year to get canned. And he should if we do.

[cujo]

This is where you and Coach are wrong. I can't think of a coach who inherited all the crap Coach listed and LOST, much less won. It's an unprecedented shitstorm. But, that doesn't change the fact that we don't shoot FT's well, we don't block out and outrebound the opponent, and we don't play good defense. Those are three areas of basketball that can be controlled just by good coaching and hard work. It ain't happening.
Ray will leave, whether in two years or more, and then Scott will have to do this again. Let's hope that if he has a chance to get a Kermit Davis, Jr at that time, he's humble enough to admit he should do it, warts and all.

[BrunswickDawg]

I'm in the camp of Ray need's 3-4 years due to the dumpster fire he inherited, however since the DogFather won't give an example I'll cite the only thing remotely close. Scott Drew at Baylor. There are some differences in that situation though. Drew had 9 years as a top assistant and 1 year as HC at Valpo. After the Baylor scandal, Drew inherited 7 scholly players in AUGUST 2003 and 7 years of probation. In '03-'04 he went 8-21 (3-13, 11th in B12); '04-'05 was 9-19 (1-15, 12th); '05-'06 was 4-13 (12th w/ no OOC games allowed). He signed the #7 class in '05, and improved to 15-16 (4-12, 11th) in '06-'07. They made the tourney in '07-'08 and have been a consistent winner since.

So the only situation close to ours - with someone recognized now as a damn good coach, but relatively unproven at the time - took until the 5th season to get post season eligible in a league that is pretty much Kansas and everyone else.

[Political Hack]

maybe next year we'll only lose 20 games by less than 5 points. that would be great!!!

[Coach34]

I'm in the camp of Ray need's 3-4 years due to the dumpster fire he inherited, however since the DogFather won't give an example I'll cite the only thing remotely close. Scott Drew at Baylor. There are some differences in that situation though. Drew had 9 years as a top assistant and 1 year as HC at Valpo. After the Baylor scandal, Drew inherited 7 scholly players in AUGUST 2003 and 7 years of probation. In '03-'04 he went 8-21 (3-13, 11th in B12); '04-'05 was 9-19 (1-15, 12th); '05-'06 was 4-13 (12th w/ no OOC games allowed). He signed the #7 class in '05, and improved to 15-16 (4-12, 11th) in '06-'07. They made the tourney in '07-'08 and have been a consistent winner since.

So the only situation close to ours - with someone recognized now as a damn good coach, but relatively unproven at the time - took until the 5th season to get post season eligible in a league that is pretty much Kansas and everyone else.

good post. The Baylor situation was a little worse than ours with all they had going on, but you can see the similarities of a decimated roster and a dumpster fire of a program. Nobody was going to come in and do anything with the roster and problems we had.

Lost all 5 starters
Brian Bryant was a Sr
Ran off Deville Smith for drugs
Then the new coach has to kick off two more that summer.

Ray inherited Steele, Lewis, and Roq Johnson. And people bitch about where we are right now...wow

[smootness]

That's the rap on him. Sorry Mrs Ray if that offends you but please point out the true difference makers he has brought into the program. Answer zero and for those who think we are getting Newman, well you need a mental health evaluation.

No, it isn't the rap on him. That's why I said you made it up. Because you did. How many difference makers? In one recruiting class, that he was already behind on when he was hired?

And I would say that Ready, Daniels, and Ndoye could all become difference-makers.

[Jack Lambert]

We suck but I am willing to stick with ray however if at this time next year we suck as bad as we do this time Ray needs to go. After three years you have to have improvement. I am not saying NCAA or even the NIT but we have to be better.

[smootness]

I'm in the camp of Ray need's 3-4 years due to the dumpster fire he inherited, however since the DogFather won't give an example I'll cite the only thing remotely close. Scott Drew at Baylor. There are some differences in that situation though. Drew had 9 years as a top assistant and 1 year as HC at Valpo. After the Baylor scandal, Drew inherited 7 scholly players in AUGUST 2003 and 7 years of probation. In '03-'04 he went 8-21 (3-13, 11th in B12); '04-'05 was 9-19 (1-15, 12th); '05-'06 was 4-13 (12th w/ no OOC games allowed). He signed the #7 class in '05, and improved to 15-16 (4-12, 11th) in '06-'07. They made the tourney in '07-'08 and have been a consistent winner since.

So the only situation close to ours - with someone recognized now as a damn good coach, but relatively unproven at the time - took until the 5th season to get post season eligible in a league that is pretty much Kansas and everyone else.

An example like this should shut everyone up, but it won't. You can't just step into a decimated program, wave a magic wand, bring in stud recruits immediately, and win.

[Political Hack]

And the tent gathering believers think that none of it is his fault. he's had more players leave in less than 2 years than any other coach I've ever seen. We have more transfers on a 12 man roster than we do on our 85 man roster football team. And we're not even backfilling the scholarships and kicking kids off the team for minor shit after signing day leaving us holes in the roster. At some point you've got to punish your players within the program rather than sending then packing. Right now the only people being punished are the remaining players, the fans, and the University. You think Jalen or Hood are upset they're gone? Wendell? Anyone for that matter? They left a shit show for greener pastures and THEY got the better end of the deal. Y'all can applaud suckitude all you want, but the fact remains that Rick Ray has absolutely decimated a major college basketball program's roster in a span of less than 2 years. I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but it supposed to be going the other direction.

[BrunswickDawg]

An example like this should shut everyone up, but it won't. You can't just step into a decimated program, wave a magic wand, bring in stud recruits immediately, and win.

You can get another example with a proven coach -Tom Crean at Indiana:

"On April 1, 2008, Tom Crean was hired as head coach and inherited a thoroughly depleted team. Between Crean's hiring and the start of the 2008–09 season, freshman Eric Gordon opted to leave early for the NBA and star forward DJ White graduated. Two other players transferred and three others were kicked off the team. As a result, Crean began with a roster consisting of two walk-ons who had scored a combined 36 points in their careers.
With a depleted roster and damaged recruiting lure, Crean's first three seasons saw losing records of 6–25 record (the worst in school history), 10-21, and 12-20. However, during this period Crean's recruiting classes progressively improved, most notably with the signing of five-star recruit and McDonald's All-American Cody Zeller, an Indiana native and lifelong Indiana Hoosier fan. Zeller was the highest ranked recruit to join the Indiana program since the Sampson era."

Season Coach Overall Conference Standing Postseason

2008–09 Tom Crean 6–25 1–17 11th ––
2009–10 Tom Crean 10–21 4–14 9th ––
2010–11 Tom Crean 12–20 3–15 11th ––
2011–12 Tom Crean 27–9 11–7 5th NCAA Sweet 16
2012–13 Tom Crean 29–7 14–4 1st NCAA Sweet 16

Crean had a 190-96 record at Marquette, and was recruiting to INDIANA - and it took 3 terrible seasons (granted their schedule is much harder) before they rebounded.

[smootness]

And the tent gathering believers think that none of it is his fault. he's had more players leave in less than 2 years than any other coach I've ever seen. We have more transfers on a 12 man roster than we do on our 85 man roster football team. And we're not even backfilling the scholarships and kicking kids off the team for minor shit after signing day leaving us holes in the roster. At some point you've got to punish your players within the program rather than sending then packing. Right now the only people being punished are the remaining players, the fans, and the University. You think Jalen or Hood are upset they're gone? Wendell? Anyone for that matter? They left a shit show for greener pastures and THEY got the better end of the deal. Y'all can applaud suckitude all you want, but the fact remains that Rick Ray has absolutely decimated a major college basketball program's roster in a span of less than 2 years. I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but it supposed to be going the other direction.

Ray has not decimated the roster. That's insane. First, in no way, shape, or form is Hood on Ray. So we can drop that.

Second, new coaches always have a lot of roster turnover, especially if part of their goal is to change the culture of the program. Of course there will be guys who got used to doing things the way they had been done who won't adapt the way they need to. I'm glad Ray is making those changes because they were necessary. Coaches who cut corners early for a few more wins will reap the consequences later.

Third, how many have transferred? Jalen Steele, because he wanted to dictate when he played; and Andre Applewhite. That's it. There were definitely 2-year spans where Stans had at least that many transfer.

[smootness]

Between Crean's hiring and the start of the 2008–09 season, freshman Eric Gordon opted to leave early for the NBA and star forward DJ White graduated. Two other players transferred and three others were kicked off the team. As a result, Crean began with a roster consisting of two walk-ons who had scored a combined 36 points in their careers.

Uh, no, Ray has had the most players leave the program of anyone EVER. So this paragraph can not be true. And even if it is, it proves Tom Crean is a bad coach because good coaches do whatever it takes to ensure kids stay, even if they are ultimately bad for the future of the program.

[Raytoraid83]

I'm in the camp of Ray need's 3-4 years due to the dumpster fire he inherited, however since the DogFather won't give an example I'll cite the only thing remotely close. Scott Drew at Baylor. There are some differences in that situation though. Drew had 9 years as a top assistant and 1 year as HC at Valpo. After the Baylor scandal, Drew inherited 7 scholly players in AUGUST 2003 and 7 years of probation. In '03-'04 he went 8-21 (3-13, 11th in B12); '04-'05 was 9-19 (1-15, 12th); '05-'06 was 4-13 (12th w/ no OOC games allowed). He signed the #7 class in '05, and improved to 15-16 (4-12, 11th) in '06-'07. They made the tourney in '07-'08 and have been a consistent winner since.

So the only situation close to ours - with someone recognized now as a damn good coach, but relatively unproven at the time - took until the 5th season to get post season eligible in a league that is pretty much Kansas and everyone else.

Scott Drew- already had head coaching experience and is one of the best recruiters (and dirtiest) in the country. Has a Stansbury vibe to him though where many people question how good his X's and O's are.

Baylor situation worse than ours

Saying the big 12 is Kansas and everyone else is laughable, they are projected to have 7 teams in the ncaa tournament

[TrueMaroon]

Crean...... Crean???? He was ESTABLISHED already. Nobody that followed college basketball knew who Rick Ray was before we hired him. Nobody.

Engie and Coach want to beat the drum of everything is going to be alright but the bottom line is if he doesnt produce in 2014-2015 season, Ray will be GONE and Scott Stricklin's failed experiment will be over.

And our program will be 10xs harder to sell than it was when Stans left.

[engie]

Scott Drew- already had head coaching experience and is one of the best recruiters (and dirtiest) in the country.

How did one of the best recruiters in the country take 5 years to start winning? I thought that could be done in year 2 regardless of prior situation? "Just one player away" right?

[BrunswickDawg]

[QUOTE=TrueMaroon;143709]Crean...... Crean???? He was ESTABLISHED already. Nobody that followed college basketball knew who Rick Ray was before we hired him. Nobody. /QUOTE]

Uh... did you read the first sentence??? "You can get another example with a proven coach -Tom Crean at Indiana:"

[engie]

Crean...... Crean???? He was ESTABLISHED already. Nobody that followed college basketball knew who Rick Ray was before we hired him. Nobody.
The stupidity of this one makes it fun.

So, you are saying RICK RAY SHOULD BE BETTER THAN TOM CREAN IN YEAR 2 AT A MUCH WORSE JOB -- BECAUSE NO ONE KNEW WHO HE WAS? That's the gist of your point in judging him right now -- in a similar situation to the one where Crean failed at the same snapshot in time. So, in essence, by judging Rick Ray right now -- you are asking him to be better than Tom Crean.

The fact that he wasn't established and didn't have head coaching experience should actually earn him MORE patience for a similar circumstance -- not less.


Engie and Coach want to beat the drum of everything is going to be alright but the bottom line is if he doesnt produce in 2014-2015 season, Ray will be GONE and Scott Stricklin's failed experiment will be over.
What's your point? Engie and Coach have said this. Exactly. 100 damn times. But your faction is too dense to see it -- and you want to bandwagon hop A YEAR BEFORE it's time to bandwagon hop. That's our problem with your viewpoint. Hence why coach says "Let it play out" a couple hundred times a week.


And our program will be 10xs harder to sell than it was when Stans left.
EL OH EL.

Surely, this is a joke?

[Raytoraid83]

How did one of the best recruiters in the country take 5 years to start winning? I thought that could be done in year 2 regardless of prior situation? "Just one player away" right?

Maybe bc he was on 7 years probation and inherited a program not with an "attitude problem" but a MURDER problem

[shannondawg]

Not a whole lot to look forward to as far as winning basketball in the next few years. No matter which side of the fence your on.

[MadDawg]

Maybe bc he was on 7 years probation and inherited a program not with an "attitude problem" but a MURDER problem

Ok. Someone owes me a new monitor.

[smootness]

So let me get this straight. Examples have been given for really good, and in some cases proven, coaches who struggled for even longer than we have so far under Ray. And that is somehow an explanation for why we shouldn't have patience with Ray? What?

So we know that it takes good coaches, even coaches with a track record already, years to climb out of the abyss. Yet because Ray wasn't already proven, we shouldn't give him the same amount of time? We should just blow it up? How on earth does that make sense?

If even really good coaches can't climb out of it this quickly, then WE STILL DON'T KNOW IF RAY IS REALLY GOOD OR NOT. That has been the entire point the whole time; not that 'everything is going to be alright'...but that it is too soon to make a judgement.

And by claiming Drew and Crean are good and/or previously proven, that actually helps support the idea that we should give Ray more time, not that we should pull the plug early.

[MarketingBully01]

Not saying I agree with Hack, but this is a very misleading and incorrect post. We played a WAAAAY tougher schedule last year. That's why we got blown out more. Plus, these guys were a year younger.

Look, I hope Ray gets it going...but just because shitty gets a year older and doesn't get blown out as bad, doesn't make them not shitty. They will be better next year bc they're a year older...period. And God help us when guys like Sword graduate. We'll have IJ Glass and a bunch of Tyson Cunninghams running around out there after Ray boots our only 2 decent recruits for smoking a black n mild.

All joking aside though..I'm frustrated at the botched hire. Nothing against Ray bc it's not his fault, but USM and their lack of bball history were able to hire 2 solid head coaches in their last 2 hires...yet MSU had to get an assistant from a team that sucked. Stricklin blew it, and we're all praying somehow Ray can pull a rabbit out of his hat.

Cadaver, I 1000% agree with you on this post. IMO, the best post I have read on this thread.

[engie]

Maybe bc he was on 7 years probation and inherited a program not with an "attitude problem" but a MURDER problem

Ah -- so he would have turned around MSU in year 2 huh? Obviously right?

[Coach34]

And our program will be 10xs harder to sell than it was when Stans left.

That's one of the dumbest things I have ready lately. The program will be 10X EASIER to sell if we have to go that direction because we have cleaned it up and gotten away from being the "most dysfunctional program in America" as we were called.

Strick made some mistakes in the coaching search- but he also got a huge eye-opening view of how our program was viewed by the outside. And I think ultimately- why Ray was chosen over Kenny Payne

[Raytoraid83]

Ah -- so he would have turned around MSU in year 2 huh? Obviously right?

He wouldn't be competing with New Hampshire and North Florida for recruits I know that, but no point to bring up an argument that has no answer.

[tcdog70]

And the tent gathering believers think that none of it is his fault. he's had more players leave in less than 2 years than any other coach I've ever seen. We have more transfers on a 12 man roster than we do on our 85 man roster football team. And we're not even backfilling the scholarships and kicking kids off the team for minor shit after signing day leaving us holes in the roster. At some point you've got to punish your players within the program rather than sending then packing. Right now the only people being punished are the remaining players, the fans, and the University. You think Jalen or Hood are upset they're gone? Wendell? Anyone for that matter? They left a shit show for greener pastures and THEY got the better end of the deal. Y'all can applaud suckitude all you want, but the fact remains that Rick Ray has absolutely decimated a major college basketball program's roster in a span of less than 2 years. I'm not sure if anyone realizes this, but it supposed to be going the other direction.

Now, some real truth. Thanks for the post. Why can't people just step back and see it for what it is. Forget Stansbury--Just look at what Ray has done-or hasn't done.

[tcdog70]

Robert Kirby has coached at what- 4 schools in the last 5 years? What does that say about him????

It says 4 teams were willing to hire Him.So they must have thought he brought something to the Table. GeorgeTown, LSU and Memphis-all good basketball programs. It's bad enough to still bash a Coach that has been gone two years but why slam Kirby?

[Coach34]

Now, some real truth. Thanks for the post. Why can't people just step back and see it for what it is. Forget Stansbury--Just look at what Ray has done-or hasn't done.

Real truth?

Where is Wendell Lewis now? Who is he playing for?
Zedakis went to Grand Valley State and they kicked him off too
Where is Shaun Smith?

Nobody has left Ray for greener pastures. We'll see how Steele turns out. I'll be shocked if he does much. He'll be the first one if he does

[Coach34]

It says 4 teams were willing to hire Him.So they must have thought he brought something to the Table. GeorgeTown, LSU and Memphis-all good basketball programs. It's bad enough to still bash a Coach that has been gone two years but why slam Kirby?

The poster said Ray moved around from job to job- and that showed people didnt want him. That's why I asked about Kirby. He has bounced around even more than Ray. Wasnt slamming Kirby at all

[tcdog70]

Real truth?

Where is Wendell Lewis now? Who is he playing for?
Zedakis went to Grand Valley State and they kicked him off too
Where is Shaun Smith?

Nobody has left Ray for greener pastures. We'll see how Steele turns out. I'll be shocked if he does much. He'll be the first one if he does

what about Applewhite? You can argue Hood and Gray if you wanted too. They were both on the team When Stansbury was fired. i know smoking weed is the reason for Ray canning a bunch of Stansbury recruits, but if you think Ray doesn't have some players burning them, --Applewhite--maybe had a serious Moultre Knee. The rumor I heard was he and a couple of His boys enjoyed relaxing after a hard practice.

[smootness]

what about Applewhite? You can argue Hood and Gray if you wanted too. They were both on the team When Stansbury was fired. i know smoking weed is the reason for Ray canning a bunch of Stansbury recruits, but if you think Ray doesn't have some players burning them, --Applewhite--maybe had a serious Moultre Knee. The rumor I heard was he and a couple of His boys enjoyed relaxing after a hard practice.

...and he left. So it seems that Ray is taking care of the problems, no?

And no, Gray was not on the team. He was a signee, yes, but I have no issues with Ray letting him go considering how many teams he's gone through since then.

Yes, Hood was technically on the team. But anyone who claims Ray is the reason Hood transferred just isn't being honest. Hood already had one foot out the door; any new coach would have had to work to try to get him to stay, and I feel pretty confident that very few, if any, would have been successful.

[TrueMaroon]

This is the worst the SEC has been in at least the last 20 years, and we are the worst team during the worst year of SEC basketball in about 2 decades. What does that say?


Ole Miss will have a new coach and a new stadium to sell.

Stans at Auburn will ensure that he'll get players from us that we used to could get.

Arkansas and Alabama arent going to stay terrible forever.

[mic]

Same stuff different thread.. Over and over and over again..
1.) The guy has been here less than 2 years total.. if he isn't winning next year and for sure after year 4 he is gone. You all sound like we were going to the dance every year, we haven't been since '09. And the few posts about our schedule this year , that was knock every year with the selection committee about Stands , how weak our OCS was. Name me one coach who has been at a Major Conference school for 13 or 14 years that never made it past the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney. Hell even OM is getting tired of AK because of the Big dance issues. He is in I think year 8. And his numbers besides the NCAA trips are very similar to Stands. (all time wins leader, multiple 20 win seasons, NIT appearances ect..)

2.) if you all don't think RR is working and coaching his ass of then your wrong. Not only for the team and MSU but himself. Im sure he knows that if he is canned after 4 years here there is prob no chance or if so a long time from now he gets another head gig and that's not saying I don't think he is a good X and O coach cause I know and have heard from other people that KNOW basketball that he is.

3.) And those that are bitching about our free throw shooting, defense, rebounding, ect...
Yes missing free throws makes me pissed more than anything and rebounding is pure effort.
And found out that EVERYONE is shooting a better % from the line this year compared to last year except for FT and IJ is at over 80%
and EVERYONE has improved their rebounding this except for Borch which is down about 1 per game.
Those of you that have never played have no idea how hard it and how much effort it takes to defend. That's where depth comes into play. We had 10 guys a few years back that were getting double digits in minutes. And one of them was freaking Twany Beckham. That's how big a factor depth and a full roster has. Our defense a few years back wasn't credited all to coaching. It was the big man in the middle. Its much easier to play defense when you know if you get beat off the dribble or have a guard penetrate the lane in the zone that Big Swat was there to bail you out. Ravern & Sid played ZERO defense because they didn't want too. Our best defenders were of course Vernado and your effort guy Benock and Barry Stewart.. Even Moultire had a presence inside on defense. Dee was an average defender at best. Kodi played when he wanted too.

For the 100th. time. Yes RR wasn't anyones choice for the position. THis is on Scott for the hire. Good or Bad. But its not like we were going to get Coach K or for that matter a hot mid major guy here at the time anyway. If Rick doesn't win next year with a full roster or at least shows major improvement in the W column then yes its time for Scott (who made this hire) to question it and possible look elsewhere and for sure after year 4.
But everyone acts like we "fired" Dean Smith or Billy D. And I get it all time wins , won west championships (usually by going 9-7) beat OM. But we weren't taking the next step. Not even making the big dance every other year. And when we did never getting past round 2. Yes he brought in talent. But he was on the staff for years before he got the job, he should be able to get talent quickly. Too bad he didn't even recruit Summers a few years back..
Im not a Stans hater.. Did I think he could recruit YES , but X and O wise NO. Stans won games, got us to the tourney (not as much as he should have) and did real good tings for MSU basketball, but it was time to move. 13 years and no sweet 16 with the talent he had wasn't going to cut it. He won coach of the year ONCE. There was a reason he was the ONLY coach to vote to keep the SEC format East and west like it was. And its not like the SEC was putting 6 teams in the tourney every year in his time at MSU. Yeah it is down this year but we will still have 4 teams make it..

I agree the last 2 years have sucked record wise. I just want to see what RR can do with a full roster , when our guys can actually have players to compete against in practice and we can at least have a serviceable 8-10 man rotation.
If he cant get it done . Then we need to move on..

[Political Hack]

Hood, Gray, Applewhite, Jalen, & Wendell could've helped us this year.

Why in the sam hell would Jalen accept a RS this year anyway? That's absurd considering our talent level. Run him until he pukes 8 times a week until the season starts. We haven't managed a single discipline issue since Ray got on campus. We've simply dismissed them. This is BASKETBALL. It's full of rock stars who think their crap don't stink. Every college player worth their salt was probably the best player at their high school in over a decade. You have to "un-recruit" them, not throw them in the trash.

The kids who left under Ray would beat the kids who stayed under Ray by 40 points without breaking a sweat. Manage the damn roster! and if you can't do that, at least build your team around what you can do. Team full of slashers with no outside shooters that can't shoot free throws. WTF? Seriously. that's YMCA level crap. Man to man defense that can't rebound defensively. Holy crap!!! You've got to be kidding me. how anyone can defend what's going on in the Hump right now is beyond me.

[mic]

Hood, Gray, Applewhite, Jalen, & Wendell could've helped us this year.

Why in the sam hell would Jalen accept a RS this year anyway? That's absurd considering our talent level. Run him until he pukes 8 times a week until the season starts. We haven't managed a single discipline issue since Ray got on campus. We've simply dismissed them. This is BASKETBALL. It's full of rock stars who think their crap don't stink. Every college player worth their salt was probably the best player at their high school in over a decade. You have to "un-recruit" them, not throw them in the trash.

The kids who left under Ray would beat the kids who stayed under Ray by 40 points without breaking a sweat. Manage the damn roster! and if you can't do that, at least build your team around what you can do. Team full of slashers with no outside shooters that can't shoot free throws. WTF? Seriously. that's YMCA level crap. Man to man defense that can't rebound defensively. Holy crap!!! You've got to be kidding me. how anyone can defend what's going on in the Hump right now is beyond me.

That's the problem.. Under Stans the SC had no hand of the law if the kids didn't really want to do it they made excuses. RR gave Atkins much more control and they didn't go over too well with the older guys,..
Im actually surprised with the roster we have we rebound as well as we do.. Like I said above rebounding has improved since last year..

[CadaverDawg]

What I find hilarious is that some people want to keep throwing Stansbury's name out there as a negative, yet if it wasn't for Stansbury we may not have Sword, Thomas, or Ware...aka our best players.

I'm a guy that knew Stans had to go, and can still see how ridiculous it is to still be using him as an excuse at this point. He gift wrapped the players mentioned above and has now been gone long enough for Ray to have 2 classes. Ray has produced IJ Glass and that's it. So after 2 seasons, Stans still has more of an impact on our starting 5 than Ray does. Think about that. (Ware, Thomas, Sword, Roquez)

This post doesn't fit the "defend Ray and Bash Stans" mantra by some... But I'm cutting through the BS and looking at things realistically.

Doesn't mean it can't change though. That's why I'm ok with one more year, but would be fine if we hired someone else tomorrow. We're delaying the inevitable IMO from what I can see.

[Political Hack]

That's the problem.. Under Stans the SC had no hand of the law if the kids didn't really want to do it they made excuses. RR gave Atkins much more control and they didn't go over too well with the older guys,..
Im actually surprised with the roster we have we rebound as well as we do.. Like I said above rebounding has improved since last year..

I gotcha, but please don't confuse me with the "we shouldn't have fired Stans" crowd. I WANT MOAR!!! lol.

I wasn't happy with Stans and am not happy with Ray, as of now, but that is subject to change if he can stop the slide.

[Coach34]

Why in the sam hell would Jalen accept a RS this year anyway? That's absurd considering our talent level. Run him until he pukes 8 times a week until the season starts.
.

You're misunderstanding. Steele demanded to redshirt. We refused to let him.

[engie]

He wouldn't be competing with New Hampshire and North Florida for recruits I know that, but no point to bring up an argument that has no answer.

Ahh -- yeah, it's just crazy to think he would be stealing recruits that the only undefeated team in the regular season in the last decade wanted...
Oh, wait**

[Coach34]

What I find hilarious is that some people want to keep throwing Stansbury's name out there as a negative, yet if it wasn't for Stansbury we may not have Sword, Thomas, or Ware...aka our best players. .

Every coach is supposed to leave a few players for next guy. That's a big point to this- look at what Ray was left?

Hell, the only coach to come in and win in the SEC in the last 10 years was Pearl- why? He was left 2 All-SEC players plus some recruits as well.

[Dawg61]

Hood, Gray, Applewhite, Jalen, & Wendell could've helped us this year.

Why in the sam hell would Jalen accept a RS this year anyway? That's absurd considering our talent level. Run him until he pukes 8 times a week until the season starts. We haven't managed a single discipline issue since Ray got on campus. We've simply dismissed them. This is BASKETBALL. It's full of rock stars who think their crap don't stink. Every college player worth their salt was probably the best player at their high school in over a decade. You have to "un-recruit" them, not throw them in the trash.

The kids who left under Ray would beat the kids who stayed under Ray by 40 points without breaking a sweat. Manage the damn roster! and if you can't do that, at least build your team around what you can do. Team full of slashers with no outside shooters that can't shoot free throws. WTF? Seriously. that's YMCA level crap. Man to man defense that can't rebound defensively. Holy crap!!! You've got to be kidding me. how anyone can defend what's going on in the Hump right now is beyond me.

Amen brother. A HUGE problem I've got with Ray is that he sold himself as the man capable of the job. He told SS he's better than Kermit Davis or anyone else that wanted the job. He lied. He sold Stricklin a bag of goods and is producing on about 2% of what he promised. Ray is a lazy lazy recruiter and the worst manager of a roster and minutes I've ever seen. His assistants are lazier than him at recruiting. We are a ****ing JOKE in basketball and those of y'all sticking up for Ray are just keeping us a ****ing joke for a year longer. You guys want us to give Ray a pass because he doesn't have experience. RAY CAME TO US WANTING THE JOB. He said he could do it better than anyone else applying. HE ****ING LIED!!

[dawgs]

The lack of an answer to a legitimate question shows how ridiculously skewed the viewpoints of you and those like you are. So, yes, it is "proof" of ridiculousness.

Coach is basically saying "you are asking Ray to be best coach in the history of college basketball in his second year". You are asking him to win in a situation where you can't name a single mother ****ing coach in college basketball history that has overcome the amount of adversity Ray has faced that was not of his own doing in year 2.

But the obvious is lost on you -- and has been all along on this. I'm sure my response will be dismissed just as every other argument that has been made against you while you keep beating the same dead horse and constantly failing to accept situational realities.

i don't think asking him to be able to beat TCU and some shitty SEC teams and finish the year at .500 is too much to ask or expecting him to be coach K. but keep acting like those of us that don't see ray succeeding are expecting NCAA, or even NIT, runs this season, because that's simply not true. i was reasonably wanting to see .500 (or maybe 1-2 games over) with 6 or so Ws against the shitty SEC. we aren't even close to hitting that.

i thought last year he got everything out of the roster and damn near maximized our potential. i don't think coach K would have been more than 1-2 games better with that roster. i've said that over and over. but this year we aren't even close to maximizing our potential with this pathetic schedule. end of story.

[dawgs]

I'm in the camp of Ray need's 3-4 years due to the dumpster fire he inherited, however since the DogFather won't give an example I'll cite the only thing remotely close. Scott Drew at Baylor. There are some differences in that situation though. Drew had 9 years as a top assistant and 1 year as HC at Valpo. After the Baylor scandal, Drew inherited 7 scholly players in AUGUST 2003 and 7 years of probation. In '03-'04 he went 8-21 (3-13, 11th in B12); '04-'05 was 9-19 (1-15, 12th); '05-'06 was 4-13 (12th w/ no OOC games allowed). He signed the #7 class in '05, and improved to 15-16 (4-12, 11th) in '06-'07. They made the tourney in '07-'08 and have been a consistent winner since.

So the only situation close to ours - with someone recognized now as a damn good coach, but relatively unproven at the time - took until the 5th season to get post season eligible in a league that is pretty much Kansas and everyone else.

wake me up when our recruiting class creeps into the top 50

[Coach34]

wake me up when our recruiting class creeps into the top 50

We are currently 12th in the country for 2015

http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

You awake yet?

[dawgs]

How did one of the best recruiters in the country take 5 years to start winning? I thought that could be done in year 2 regardless of prior situation? "Just one player away" right?

he spent his 3rd season not playing any non-conference games due to sanctions from the murder stuff before he was hired and in his 1st 2 seasons had to recruit against the pending NCAA sanctions. we don't have that hanging over us. he also signed the 7th best recruiting class in the country as soon as the sanctions were handed down and largely passed by, and started winning at that point forward. we don't have any sanctions, pending or in effect, holding us back.

[Raytoraid83]

We are currently 12th in the country for 2015

http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

You awake yet?

HAHAHAHA

[dawgs]

We are currently 12th in the country for 2015

http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

You awake yet?

3 3*, only 1 of them above a mid-level 3*. we are only ranked there because we are the only team in the top 30 with 3 commits. everyone else has 1 or 2. rutgers is #21 because they have 2 commits, even though their avg player rating is below 3* level.

don't be obtuse.

[Raytoraid83]

3 3*, only 1 of them above a mid-level 3*. we are only ranked there because we are the only team in the top 30 with 3 commits. everyone else has 1 or 2. rutgers is #21 because they have 2 commits, even though their avg player rating is below 3* level.

don't be obtuse.

With another under sized pg and Miss St is his only offer

[dawgs]

The stupidity of this one makes it fun.

So, you are saying RICK RAY SHOULD BE BETTER THAN TOM CREAN IN YEAR 2 AT A MUCH WORSE JOB -- BECAUSE NO ONE KNEW WHO HE WAS? That's the gist of your point in judging him right now -- in a similar situation to the one where Crean failed at the same snapshot in time. So, in essence, by judging Rick Ray right now -- you are asking him to be better than Tom Crean.

The fact that he wasn't established and didn't have head coaching experience should actually earn him MORE patience for a similar circumstance -- not less.


no the point is that tom crean has earned more faith in his abilities to turn a program around because he'd already done it before and had a final 4 trip under his belt. it's hard to find any reasons whatsoever to have faith in ray's abilities to turn our program around because there's no evidence that he can do it.

[SouthMsDawg]

We are currently 12th in the country for 2015

http://247sports.com/Season/2015-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings

You awake yet?

This in only b/c 80% of the top 2015 guys haven't committed once they do and they are 4 and 5 star talents our class will be ranked a lot higher.

Ray has YET to sign or even come close to signing a 4 star or top 100 player. That isn't going to cut it. Even with the promise of instant PT and shots he still can't attract any big time recruits to sign with us. The best he could do last year was get an undersized PG in IJ Ready who's only other offer was Nebraska, and sign Ndoye who scored 2 points in the game I saw him play on TV and Travis Daniels who averaged a whopping 10 PPG in JUCO. Both of whom were academically ineligible this season.

[Coach34]

3 3*, only 1 of them above a mid-level 3*. we are only ranked there because we are the only team in the top 30 with 3 commits. everyone else has 1 or 2. rutgers is #21 because they have 2 commits, even though their avg player rating is below 3* level.

don't be obtuse.

You asked for a subjective measurement to make you feel better...I obliged

[mic]

i don't think asking him to be able to beat TCU and some shitty SEC teams and finish the year at .500 is too much to ask or expecting him to be coach K. but keep acting like those of us that don't see ray succeeding are expecting NCAA, or even NIT, runs this season, because that's simply not true. i was reasonably wanting to see .500 (or maybe 1-2 games over) with 6 or so Ws against the shitty SEC. we aren't even close to hitting that.

i thought last year he got everything out of the roster and damn near maximized our potential. i don't think coach K would have been more than 1-2 games better with that roster. i've said that over and over. but this year we aren't even close to maximizing our potential with this pathetic schedule. end of story.

What games that we lost were you expecting us to win.?? I agree I was expecting more from this team from SEC in wins but winning on the road is no easy order for anyone except Fla and the only game at home we lost that I thought we should have won before the year started was Ga. ( and they are better than anyone thought ) and maybe Ark.. and I thought maybe we could get one or 2 on the road from Ga (again better than anyone thought) A&M, Vandy and Aub...

[Coach34]

Ray has YET to sign or even come close to signing a 4 star or top 100 player. That isn't going to cut it. and Travis Daniels who averaged a whopping 10 PPG in JUCO. Both of whom were academically ineligible this season.

Based on what?

Oh, and Daniels averaged almost 12 ppg and also pulled down more Rebs than your boy 5-star boy Pollard is in juco

[smootness]

Amen brother. A HUGE problem I've got with Ray is that he sold himself as the man capable of the job. He told SS he's better than Kermit Davis or anyone else that wanted the job. He lied. He sold Stricklin a bag of goods and is producing on about 2% of what he promised. Ray is a lazy lazy recruiter and the worst manager of a roster and minutes I've ever seen. His assistants are lazier than him at recruiting. We are a ****ing JOKE in basketball and those of y'all sticking up for Ray are just keeping us a ****ing joke for a year longer. You guys want us to give Ray a pass because he doesn't have experience. RAY CAME TO US WANTING THE JOB. He said he could do it better than anyone else applying. HE ****ING LIED!!

Geez, dude. At first, you offered some perhaps somewhat legitimate criticisms or points, but it seemed like you were always holding yourself back from the way you truly felt. And now, you've finally just gone off the edge.

Yeah, Ray is a lazy, lazy recruiter. Mmhmm. You clearly are being fair and unbiased in your evaluation of him.

He wanted the job? And he told Stricklin he could do the job? You gotta be freaking kidding me!!!!!!**

No one is saying Ray should be given a pass because he doesn't have experience. We're saying that he should have a pass for the time being because no one, even good, experienced coaches, would have had us winning by this point. No one has used Ray's inexperience in his defense. I don't think he should be judged differently than anyone else we would have hired who had experience. But I do think he should be judged differently, for his first 2 years, than coaches who didn't inherit the mess he did.

How is that not fair?

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

How many coaches have signed 4 guys and only 1 is eligible to play the next season? Especially when you need help desperately. I can understand the argument for not having depth last season, but not having depth this season is inexcusable. Kevin Stallings is down to 7 scholarship players and they already have 7 SEC wins. We will win more games next year simply because of more players and player development but to think we will make the NIT is laughable. Y'all talk about Frank Martin all the time. Well he just had a program changing win this season. All I want is something to make me look forward to next year. Is Maurice Dunlap supposed to get me excited for next year? A well conditioned Jacoby Davis? It's sad there will be NO ONE at the game Saturday. There is nothing to look forward to next year except simply more bodies. I know of no coach that can lose 14 games in a row to end the season and keep his job. Ray will not get the job done and by keeping him another year it will be delaying the inevitable in that we will need a new coach. A terrible hire that State fans should keep Stricklin accountable. Firing a coach that is consistently winning 20 games a season is never a good decision. Ole Miss will be in the same shoes when they get rid of Kennedy it will be challenging to bring in a good coach with those expectations.

[mic]

Amen brother. A HUGE problem I've got with Ray is that he sold himself as the man capable of the job. He told SS he's better than Kermit Davis or anyone else that wanted the job. He lied. He sold Stricklin a bag of goods and is producing on about 2% of what he promised. Ray is a lazy lazy recruiter and the worst manager of a roster and minutes I've ever seen. His assistants are lazier than him at recruiting. We are a ****ing JOKE in basketball and those of y'all sticking up for Ray are just keeping us a ****ing joke for a year longer. You guys want us to give Ray a pass because he doesn't have experience. RAY CAME TO US WANTING THE JOB. He said he could do it better than anyone else applying. HE ****ING LIED!!

Yeah your right. Everyone that interviews for a job should go into it and tell the hiring AD, CEO, Owner, Mgr. ect... that they aren't the best hire for the position. and that they shouldn't be hired.. Maybe you should blame Scott for this..
Lazy recruiter.?? He has been here 18 months. This year he has signed 2 of the top 5 players in the state. And I think we are ranked in the top 20 for 2015 so far..
Asst coaches are lazy.??? Wes Flanigan is prob one the best recruiting AND X and O assistant coaches we have had at MSU in a while..

Maybe next time you fire a post out work on ur info more instead of ur 4 letter bombs....

[TrueMaroon]

Again:

We're the worst team in the conference and the conferences is the worst its been in two decades.

Spin that.

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

Wes Flanigan isn't even our best assistant on staff right now....

[TexasDawg]

Again:

We're the worst team in the conference and the conferences is the worst its been in two decades.

Spin that.

We rank first in terms of 1st half hustle before trailing by 10**********

[mic]

How many coaches have signed 4 guys and only 1 is eligible to play the next season? Especially when you need help desperately. I can understand the argument for not having depth last season, but not having depth this season is inexcusable. Kevin Stallings is down to 7 scholarship players and they already have 7 SEC wins. We will win more games next year simply because of more players and player development but to think we will make the NIT is laughable. Y'all talk about Frank Martin all the time. Well he just had a program changing win this season. All I want is something to make me look forward to next year. Is Maurice Dunlap supposed to get me excited for next year? A well conditioned Jacoby Davis? It's sad there will be NO ONE at the game Saturday. There is nothing to look forward to next year except simply more bodies. I know of no coach that can lose 14 games in a row to end the season and keep his job. Ray will not get the job done and by keeping him another year it will be delaying the inevitable in that we will need a new coach. A terrible hire that State fans should keep Stricklin accountable. Firing a coach that is consistently winning 20 games a season is never a good decision. Ole Miss will be in the same shoes when they get rid of Kennedy it will be challenging to bring in a good coach with those expectations.

A program changing win.???? you know that for a fact.?? What if they lose to Fal by 35 and then come to Starkville sat and lose to us.?? then what .??
Frank Martin should be winning more. he didn't walk into a situation like RR did. Im not saying that RR is as good as coach as Frank because he isn't. He might be one day but not even close now.
And everyone here seems to agree that an established coach wouldn't be having the problems RR is having. Well Frank seems to be. he has one more SEC win than RR and one more overall SEC the last 2 years. He also has 2 of his top 3 players that are upperclassmen and his frosh this year was a 4* stud recruit from South Carolina. Always easier to recruit in ur own backyard..

[mic]

Wes Flanigan isn't even our best assistant on staff right now....

Your 110% wrong. I wont even argue with you on this one..

[SouthMsDawg]

We rank first in terms of 1st half hustle before trailing by 10**********

BEST POST IN THIS THREAD!

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

What has Flanigan done that is so special? Sign IJ Ready (his nephew) or get Oliver Black who is going to struggle to qualify? Best in a while? Robert Kirby is the top assistant at Memphis and Phil Cunningham is the head coach at Troy. We got Flanigan from Doc Sadler's staff who was fired at Nebraska.

[Dawg61]

This year he has signed 2 of the top 5 players in the state. And I think we are ranked in the top 20 for 2015 so far.. .

2 of the top 5 players in the state? You drunk bro? You can't be talking about Dunlap and Black right? Ranked in the top 20?!?? Hahahahahahahah what a ****ing joke

[RougeDawg]

Every coach is supposed to leave a few players for next guy. That's a big point to this- look at what Ray was left?

Hell, the only coach to come in and win in the SEC in the last 10 years was Pearl- why? He was left 2 All-SEC players plus some recruits as well.

Jesus, you surely miss the forest for the trees with basketball threads. Do you have blinders on that prevent you from seeing reality? He's saying that the only reason we are doing as well as we are, which is historically shitty, is mainly result of the players Stans left behind. Ray hasn't brought in anybody to help his cause. That's the real reason we will not be better next year. Ray is not recruiting well enough. He's also apparently the only coach in North America that cannot find a decent shooting transfer or Juco guy to come in and contribute immediately. Everyone else seems to find them, when needed. I'd say we need anything at this point but it's not happening. Ray is complacent with the job and has been from day one. That's on Stricklin too. I see complacency now seeping into our on court play. The players are just happy wearing unis and getting a post game meal at this point. It's pathetic. I, along with most logically thinking fans, do not see this getting better any time soon. Unless we sign a Newman type player, the shittastic results will continue and we will be one of worst programs in the nation, not just the SEC. Think about that.

[tcdog70]

What has Flanigan done that is so special? Sign IJ Ready (his nephew) or get Oliver Black who is going to struggle to qualify? Best in a while? Robert Kirby is the top assistant at Memphis and Phil Cunningham is the head coach at Troy. We got Flanigan from Doc Sadler's staff who was fired at Nebraska.

Man be careful, you are making too much sense

[mic]

Man be careful, you are making too much sense

Ask people who know basketball how good Wes Flanigan is..

[Coach34]

Jesus, you surely miss the forest for the trees with basketball threads. Do you have blinders on that prevent you from seeing reality? He's saying that the only reason we are doing as well as we are, which is historically shitty, is mainly result of the players Stans left behind. Ray hasn't brought in anybody to help his cause. That's the real reason we will not be better next year. Ray is not recruiting well enough.
.

Ray has had 1 recruiting class take the floor. ONE

Bruce Pearl won immediately because Buzz Peterson left him 2 All-SEC players behind.

We will have a different team next year- adding 6 new players to the mix. We'll see how his recruiting is then.

[Dawg61]

Ray has had 1 recruiting class take the floor. ONE
.

Take the floor for a total of 200 minutes LESS than Trivante Bloodman. I'll say that again. Ray's ENTIRE incoming class this year has played 200 minutes LESS than Trivante Bloodman. I.J. Glass has been able to not get hurt for successfully 524 minutes. Trivante Bloodman has played 723 minutes. Think about that.

[Dawg61]

Jesus, you surely miss the forest for the trees with basketball threads. Do you have blinders on that prevent you from seeing reality? He's saying that the only reason we are doing as well as we are, which is historically shitty, is mainly result of the players Stans left behind. Ray hasn't brought in anybody to help his cause. That's the real reason we will not be better next year. Ray is not recruiting well enough. He's also apparently the only coach in North America that cannot find a decent shooting transfer or Juco guy to come in and contribute immediately. Everyone else seems to find them, when needed. I'd say we need anything at this point but it's not happening. Ray is complacent with the job and has been from day one. That's on Stricklin too. I see complacency now seeping into our on court play. The players are just happy wearing unis and getting a post game meal at this point. It's pathetic. I, along with most logically thinking fans, do not see this getting better any time soon. Unless we sign a Newman type player, the shittastic results will continue and we will be one of worst programs in the nation, not just the SEC. Think about that.

You have gained to the top of the ranks as one of the best basketball posters on here. Keep it up brother.

[mic]

Take the floor for a total of 200 minutes LESS than Trivante Bloodman. I'll say that again. Ray's ENTIRE incoming class this year has played 200 minutes LESS than Trivante Bloodman. I.J. Glass has been able to not get hurt for successfully 524 minutes. Trivante Bloodman has played 723 minutes. Think about that.

IJ Glass.???? real mature. Rip on a kid who goes thru some injury issues and battle thru them as a frosh ...
Here is an idea.. Post less...

[Dawg61]

IJ Glass.???? real mature. Rip on a kid who goes thru some injury issues and battle thru them as a frosh ...
Here is an idea.. Post less...

Like I invented that name but it's a good one so props to whoever that was. His name will stay as I.J. Glass for now. And you're just mad cause I called you out on posting the gigantic lie that Dunlap and Black are two of the top 5 Mississippi basketball players this year.

[CadaverDawg]

Like I invented that name but it's a good one so props to whoever that was. His name will stay as I.J. Glass for now. And you're just mad cause I called you out on posting the gigantic lie that Dunlap and Black are two of the top 5 Mississippi basketball players this year.

[tips cap]

[Dawg61]

[tips cap]

You say tons of funny shit but I believe it was someone else first. I'm thinking RougeDawg. Dude's been on fire for two weeks now.

[CadaverDawg]

You say tons of funny shit but I believe it was someone else first. I'm thinking RougeDawg. Dude's been on fire for two weeks now.

[throws tomato]

just kidding, maybe it was Rouge

[engie]

Jesus, you surely miss the forest for the trees with basketball threads.
This is funny to me.

When it comes to prognosticating where our program is and what direction it's going in -- I'd love to see a link to Coach being wrong...
For all the shit he catches, he was RIGHT about Stansbury, he was RIGHT about Cohen, he was RIGHT about Mullen when even I was questioning him.

If for nothing else, the sheer amount of grief you fools are going to catch from him if he's right and Ray gets it going would probably be worth "letting it play out".

[Dawg61]

If for nothing else, the sheer amount of grief you fools are going to catch from him if he's right and Ray gets it going would probably be worth "letting it play out".

This is very true. It's worth an extra year or two jump on getting out of the suck if C34 is wrong though. Bruce Pearl without a job right now makes standing up and speaking right now that much more valuable too. Don't tell me we have no shot at Pearl. I know more than you think.

[engie]

Don't tell me we have no shot at Pearl. I know more than you think.
RIIGHTTTT**

How many 5*s would he recruit for us this year? Oh -- wait -- he still can't recruit until August when his Show-Cause actually ends.

Keep on throwing the shit against the wall though...

[Dawg61]

RIIGHTTTT**

How many 5*s would he recruit for us this year? Oh -- wait -- he still can't recruit until August when his Show-Cause actually ends.

Keep on throwing the shit against the wall though...

Like Pearl hasn't planned for that already. He's had three years to see when he'll be back "in it".

[Coach34]

This is very true. It's worth an extra year or two jump on getting out of the suck if C34 is wrong though. Bruce Pearl without a job right now makes standing up and speaking right now that much more valuable too. Don't tell me we have no shot at Pearl. I know more than you think.

I would love to have Bruce Pearl

That being said- we would have to change AD and President at State before that happens- because they arent going to ****ing do it.

[Dawg61]

I would love to have Bruce Pearl

That being said- we would have to change AD and President at State before that happens- because they arent going to ****ing do it.

Bruce Pearl would bring more money to MSU in five years than Rick Ray would in twenty five years. How can the AD and President not at least consider it and make a private phone call or two?

[Coach34]

Bruce Pearl would bring more money to MSU in five years than Rick Ray would in twenty five years. How can the AD and President not at least consider it and make a private phone call or two?

Part of the reason Stands was kicked to the curb was because of his shenanigans- they arent turning around and bringing a better version of it back in.

[tcdog70]

RIIGHTTTT**

How many 5*s would he recruit for us this year? Oh -- wait -- he still can't recruit until August when his Show-Cause actually ends.

Keep on throwing the shit against the wall though...

Lets vote, who wants Pearl with no recruits or who wants Ray with His recruits.

NEXT YEAR IS ATHROW AWAY ANYWAY

[engie]

NEXT YEAR IS ATHROW AWAY ANYWAY

No it isn't.

[Dawg61]

Lets vote, who wants Pearl with no recruits or who wants Ray with His recruits.

NEXT YEAR IS ATHROW AWAY ANYWAY

I'd take Pearl with zero basketball players on August 23rd every single time. Give Pearl 13 open spots and a year to recruit them and you'll see a signing class that would rival Kentucky.

[engie]

I'd take Pearl with zero basketball players on August 23rd every single time. Give Pearl 13 open spots and a year to recruit them and you'll see a signing class that would rival Kentucky.

This doesn't require a comment. I just wanted to make sure it was saved.

Mind. Blown.

[SouthMsDawg]

I'd take Pearl with zero basketball players on August 23rd every single time. Give Pearl 13 open spots and a year to recruit them and you'll see a signing class that would rival Kentucky.

I agree with most of this.

Im not saying Pearl's recruiting would rival Kentucky's but it would be a TON better than Rick Ray's 3 star recruiting.

I guarantee that Pearl wouldn't be going after kids with New Hampshire offers

[Homedawg]

I'd take Pearl with zero basketball players on August 23rd every single time. Give Pearl 13 open spots and a year to recruit them and you'll see a signing class that would rival Kentucky.

This post takes the cake. A class that rivals Kentucky. Hmm really. Based on scout rankings pearl had 6 classes, I didn't look past number 25, but 3 outside the top25, one 9th ranked class in 2010, 10th ranked class in 2005 and 18th ranked in 08. While that may be better than ray, your Kentucky comparison would show ignorance. Since 2008 Kentucky's lowest class was 15th followed by a 1st,1st, 1st, 1st, 1st and this year currently sit at 2nd behind duke. Yea I can see that pearl would get very similar classes to the cats. Mind boggling.

[tcdog70]

I'm not saying We even have a chance to get Pearl, but if we do, How stupid would it be to pass on that opportunity. You want to see the HUMP back to rocking?? Just go get Pearl! Why would anyone have a problem with that. Engie, maybe you said this, correct me if I'm wrong, Pearl is the only New Coach in a long while that came in The SEC and was actually successful. If you are MSU and can go with a SURE THING, then Do it. Some talking heads wouldn't like it, we might get criticized on ESPN, **** em, they don't matter to Me. I want our Basketball program to Once again be a Factor. We rolled the dice on Jackie and it sure was Fun the ride He took us ON.

[Dawg61]

This post takes the cake. A class that rivals Kentucky. Hmm really. Based on scout rankings pearl had 6 classes, I didn't look past number 25, but 3 outside the top25, one 9th ranked class in 2010, 10th ranked class in 2005 and 18th ranked in 08. While that may be better than ray, your Kentucky comparison would show ignorance. Since 2008 Kentucky's lowest class was 15th followed by a 1st,1st, 1st, 1st, 1st and this year currently sit at 2nd behind duke. Yea I can see that pearl would get very similar classes to the cats. Mind boggling.

What part of the 13 players part did you not understand? Pearl recruiting an ENTIRE ROSTER would absolutely rival a Kentucky class. Dumbass

[engie]

What part of the 13 players part did you not understand? Pearl recruiting an ENTIRE ROSTER would absolutely rival a Kentucky class. Dumbass

And what would the next 2 classes look like?

You'd be ready to fire him too by then...

[Homedawg]

Instead of just saying, boy I overstated pearl and his recruiting prowess u call me the dumbass? U think u are going to sign 13 good players in the same class? U aren't a dumbass u are a ****ing idiot.

[Homedawg]

And if pearl was so damn smart why was he so stupid to get a show cause by the NCAA? A cheater who couldn't do it right evidently.

[smootness]

What part of the 13 players part did you not understand? Pearl recruiting an ENTIRE ROSTER would absolutely rival a Kentucky class. Dumbass

So it would rival a Kentucky ranking solely because of the size of the class? Wouldn't a Ray class of 13 players also rival Kentucky? And aren't people discounting the 2015 class ranking for this very reason?

[Homedawg]

He can't admit that was one of the dumbest post ever on here. And that's saying something, he's had plenty of practice.

[Dawg61]

And what would the next 2 classes look like?

You'd be ready to fire him too by then...

Why would I want to fire someone that would get our basketball team farther in three seasons than the previous 16 seasons before him? Pearl would be in the sweet 16 by year 3.

[Dawg61]

So it would rival a Kentucky ranking solely because of the size of the class? Wouldn't a Ray class of 13 players also rival Kentucky? And aren't people discounting the 2015 class ranking for this very reason?

Ray still can't fill 13 scholarships after 2 years. And he won't start with 13 by game 1 of 14-15.

[smootness]

Ray still can't fill 13 scholarships after 2 years. And he won't start with 13 by game 1 of 14-15.

First, how do you know he won't have 13 by game 1 next year?

Second, this is one of the strangest strong criticisms I've ever seen for a coach. It's not that he can't fill the 13 scholarships. Do you honestly think he's out there trying as hard as he can to just get 13 players and can't? Part of it is that guys left the program - it happens everywhere. And part of it is that he seems more concerned with doing his best to ensure we have the best shot to be successful long-term rather than putting band-aids on a situation that is going to be bad no matter what that may take up scholarships for longer than we need.

I'll be honest, one of my criticisms of him is that we actually took a guy like Bloodman, who will now take up a scholarship for 3 years. I wish he had held back some on giving out scholarships right away.

But it's an insane criticism. You don't need 13 scholarship players, and very few programs ever have 13 players at their disposal in any given year. We could be playing Daniels right now if Ray wanted, but he understands it's better for us two years from now if we redshirt him.

The 13 scholarship deal is about the last thing a coach should ever be criticized for, especially one who inherited a terrible situation and is having to rebuild for the long haul. I guarantee you that filling all 13 spots for the sake of filling all 13 spots is not at the very top of Ray's priorities.

[Dawg61]

We had like what 6 players his first year and 8 this year. Ray has no urgency. He's on the slow molasses train of suck and hustle. We are the worst power6 program in the nation. Once again we'll have a transfer or three or Ray will kick off 2 guys for smoking weed (what college student doesn't smoke weed btw but that's a different argument) on top of not filling out the roster already and then mix in the annual injuries and POOF just like that we've got 8 basketball players once again. In year 3. Of the suck and hustle train.

[smootness]

We had like what 6 players his first year and 8 this year. Ray has no urgency. He's on the slow molasses train of suck and hustle. We are the worst power6 program in the nation. Once again we'll have a transfer or three or Ray will kick off 2 guys for smoking weed (what college student doesn't smoke weed btw but that's a different argument) on top of not filling out the roster already and then mix in the annual injuries and POOF just like that we've got 8 basketball players once again. In year 3. Of the suck and hustle train.

Oh, gotcha. So you're just making assumptions, then evaluating based on those assumptions. No urgency? That's just dumb. Would you rather have 'urgency' that leads to us bringing in a bunch of players who aren't worth the scholarship who we are stuck with? Or would you rather him lack 'urgency' and make smarter decisions for the long-term health of the program?

I forgot, though; you're the guy who thinks we can literally bring in whoever and then cut them the following year, so you won't ever have the ability to have a rational discussion about it.

[Dawg61]

Do you not understand what "trimming the fat" means? I'd say being the worst power6 program filled with terrible shooters warrants a little fat trimming. You guys don't want to bring in an assistant coach that can develop better shooters and you don't want to trim the fat and bring in new better shooters so I guess you like being a terrible basketball team. I don't.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

I'm really just interested in these magical recruiting wands that Bruce Pearl has that allows him to reel in the #1 recruiting class in 2014, while not even starting on said recruiting class until after the fall semester of 2014 has begun. That's quite impressive.

[Political Hack]

You're misunderstanding. Steele demanded to redshirt. We refused to let him.

yeah. I flipped that and he shouldn't have been allowed to RS this year baring injury. I don't know the whole story here, but it makes zero sense for a player to demand a RS halfway through their career.

[Brad Stevens]

Another thread with the same recycled garbage. Some people can only see what's in front of their face right now, and others at least attempt to see what could be if given time. Ray may fall flat on his face next year with a full roster, or he may improve. No one can argue that this issue will not be put to rest until next year. The only thing more certain than this is that DAWG61 is clueless when it comes to basketball, and anyone he validates as a good basketball poster just lost validity in my book (sorry Rouge, but this means you).

[Homedawg]

Do you not understand what "trimming the fat" means? I'd say being the worst power6 program filled with terrible shooters warrants a little fat trimming. You guys don't want to bring in an assistant coach that can develop better shooters and you don't want to trim the fat and bring in new better shooters so I guess you like being a terrible basketball team. I don't.

Pretty clear you don't understand apr because u want to dump everyone who sucks. Which is fine if it's one here or there. Can't just pick up 13 guys and if they all suck get 13 more. Shocked you didn't know that****** wait no I'm not.

[Homedawg]

It's really simple guys. Fire rr, hire pearl he cuts all the guys we have after the 14-15 season, signs 13 players that's the best class in the country, they lead us to numerous dances in those four years and then we do it again 4 years later after they graduate. Don't know how y'all can't see it. It soooooo simple.

Eta. The more and more I think about it I like this plan. Only have to recruit every 4 years save tons on our budget that go to other things. The assistant coaches can just pick up donuts and ass of the other 3 years. I like it****

[Dawg61]

Pretty clear you don't understand apr because u want to dump everyone who sucks. Which is fine if it's one here or there. Can't just pick up 13 guys and if they all suck get 13 more. Shocked you didn't know that****** wait no I'm not.

Yea worrying about APR should be tops on the lists of concerns for MSU basketball right now.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1464259/64570d1337452356-poor-4runner-warning-graphic-content-borat-not-jb.jpg

[tcdog70]

It's really simple guys. Fire rr, hire pearl he cuts all the guys we have after the 14-15 season, signs 13 players that's the best class in the country, they lead us to numerous dances in those four years and then we do it again 4 years later after they graduate. Don't know how y'all can't see it. It soooooo simple.

So I guess you would vote to Keep Ray over Getting Pearl?--I don't propose for Pearl to cut everyone just Coach them

[tcdog70]

Another thread with the same recycled garbage. Some people can only see what's in front of their face right now, and others at least attempt to see what could be if given time. Ray may fall flat on his face next year with a full roster, or he may improve. No one can argue that this issue will not be put to rest until next year. The only thing more certain than this is that DAWG61 is clueless when it comes to basketball, and anyone he validates as a good basketball poster just lost validity in my book (sorry Rouge, but this means you).

If the post is garbage, why are you in it posting? If I were 61 and Rouge I wouldn't sleep a wink,because you dissed their validity. What make you such a BB guru? You big comment Ray may be better or He may not--Damn what insight-no shit Sherlock

[Homedawg]

No. I actually like pearl. However, it's a pipe dream. Not happening. I do question his intelligence to get caught by NCAA. It's one thing to get busted for helping. But he was careless and cocky. He's paying for it. As for him bringing in 13 guys at once for the top ranked class- well there are all kinds of things that can be said about that, the most fitting is that's ****ing ignorant.

[Dawg61]

It's really simple guys. Fire rr, hire pearl he cuts all the guys we have after the 14-15 season, signs 13 players that's the best class in the country, they lead us to numerous dances in those four years and then we do it again 4 years later after they graduate. Don't know how y'all can't see it. It soooooo simple.

I'm not saying cut every player dumbass. I said I would take Pearl with zero players over what we have right now. There are some players on our roster that can play (Sword, Ware). Here's another way to put it. Give Pearl the exact same roster that Ray got when Ray was hired and I guarantee you Pearl isn't still trotting out the worst basketball program in the power6 every week.

[Homedawg]

Well how's he going to sign the top ranked class without 13 spots? That's what you said. Get your shit straight dude. You've made a fool out of yourself already

[Dawg61]

No. I actually like pearl. However, it's a pipe dream. Not happening. I do question his intelligence to get caught by NCAA. It's one thing to get busted for helping. But he was careless and cocky. He's paying for it. As for him bringing in 13 guys at once for the top ranked class- well there are all kinds of things that can be said about that, the most fitting is that's ****ing ignorant.

Again I'm NOT SAYING CUT EVERY ****ING PLAYER!! I said I would take Pearl with ZERO PLAYERS over what we have right now if it means we get Bruce Pearl. How is that hard to understand? I certainly don't want to lose Sword & Ware and some others.

[Political Hack]

Another thread with the same recycled garbage. Some people can only see what's in front of their face right now, and others at least attempt to see what could be if given time. Ray may fall flat on his face next year with a full roster, or he may improve. No one can argue that this issue will not be put to rest until next year. The only thing more certain than this is that DAWG61 is clueless when it comes to basketball, and anyone he validates as a good basketball poster just lost validity in my book (sorry Rouge, but this means you).

that's the point. If next year is the benchmark you may as well fire him now. Unless you're invested for five years to see if he can turn it around, you pull the plug now because we're going to suck for the next 1-2 years no matter what we do at this point.

[MadDawg]

Well how's he going to sign the top ranked class without 13 spots? That's what you said. Get your shit straight dude. You've made a fool out of yourself already

I love that we don't allow rebs on this board. That way we can all fight against each other and pick apart the most miniscule of things and beat each other over the head with it relentlessly! So frickin' awesome!

[Brad Stevens]

If the post is garbage, why are you in it posting? If I were 61 and Rouge I wouldn't sleep a wink,because you dissed their validity. What make you such a BB guru? You big comment Ray may be better or He may not--Damn what insight-no shit Sherlock

I am posting because it amazes me that this thread can be 8 pages long with the same 4-5 posters arguing the same thing over and over. No, I don't enjoy us losing so much. But you don't have to be John Wooden to read a message board and know who understands the game of basketball and who doesn't. I don't care what you think of my basketball credentials. It really just frustrates me that we have fans like Dawg61 who again and again and again proves he knows very little about basketball and that he happens to be one of the most vocal on message boards. It IS possible to be against Rick Ray and still think 61 is an idiot. No matter where you land on our coaching situation, we can all agree 61's thoughts are just plain dumb.

[Brad Stevens]

that's the point. If next year is the benchmark you may as well fire him now. Unless you're invested for five years to see if he can turn it around, you pull the plug now because we're going to suck for the next 1-2 years no matter what we do at this point.

I disagree. I think it's still within the realm of possibility that we do not suck next year or the next. Especially if we have minimal injuries.

[engie]

that's the point. If next year is the benchmark you may as well fire him now. Unless you're invested for five years to see if he can turn it around, you pull the plug now because we're going to suck for the next 1-2 years no matter what we do at this point.

This is far from a foregone conclusion. It's just your opinion -- and it's pretty far out in left field from the actual concrete facts we have at this point.

You don't pull the plug in year 2 of what was LONG KNOWN to be a 2 year rebuild. Period. I can't believe you've allowed yourself to get hung up on this to this level.

He gets 3 years. He deserves 3 years. Real evaluations happen next year. Otherwise, you are simply identifying yourself with the overly emotional and reactionary facet of our fanbase...

[Dawg61]

I am posting because it amazes me that this thread can be 8 pages long with the same 4-5 posters arguing the same thing over and over. No, I don't enjoy us losing so much. But you don't have to be John Wooden to read a message board and know who understands the game of basketball and who doesn't. I don't care what you think of my basketball credentials. It really just frustrates me that we have fans like Dawg61 who again and again and again proves he knows very little about basketball and that he happens to be one of the most vocal on message boards. It IS possible to be against Rick Ray and still think 61 is an idiot. No matter where you land on our coaching situation, we can all agree 61's thoughts are just plain dumb.

You've had a gigantic hard-on for me for two years going now. Started on SPS and continues over here. You've even brought your girlfriend on this board to help your case. You know who she is too I don't even have to post her name. So which waterboy on the team are you? Or are you personal friends with Rick Ray? I bet that when Ray gets fired pretty soon after you'll disappear as well. How come you never post about baseball or football Brad? Seems to me that you're just a Rick Ray fan and not really a Mississippi State fan.

[tcdog70]

I disagree. I think it's still within the realm of possibility that we do not suck next year or the next. Especially if we have minimal injuries.

i am still awaiting some kind of basketball insight from You, where i might think you know any more than 61. Voice what you believe and the people that read it will figure out who the idiot is without you pointing it out.--Careful-it might point to You.. If you have to stoop to name calling to make your point then you really don't have one.

[Brad Stevens]

You've had a gigantic hard-on for me for two years going now. Started on SPS and continues over here. You've even brought your girlfriend on this board to help your case. You know who she is too I don't even have to post her name. So which waterboy on the team are you? Or are you personal friends with Rick Ray? I bet that when Ray gets fired pretty soon after you'll disappear as well. How come you never post about baseball or football Brad? Seems to me that you're just a Rick Ray fan and not really a Mississippi State fan.

Sigh... Honest question: are you old enough to be in college? Your logic and arguments when I talk of your lack of knowledge in basketball are to attack my personal character, of which you have no clue. My girlfriend does not post on here. I have a wife, and she does not post on here either. I have never met Rick Ray, nor have I ever been a waterboy. However, I personally know many of the players and staff from the old regime. My old high school coach has coaching connections with the Richard Williams' staff. I actually enjoyed watching basketball under Stansbury, and think he did a good job for awhile, until he got somewhat entitled and lazy with the program.

To answer your question, I read a lot about football and baseball. I just have much more experience personally in the basketball realm. I am a Mississippi State fan, and while there are countless times of frustration this season, there are times where it seems if (and when) we have a full squad, we could field a decent team. I am willing to be patient and see. I am unwilling to google "best juco players in the country" and call Rick Ray and Stricklin idiots for not signing guys on that list. Do you understand?

[MadDawg]

you are simply identifying yourself with the overly emotional and reactionary facet of our fanbase...

Like the morons calling for Mullen to be fired at the end of last season?

[Political Hack]

Like the morons calling for Mullen to be fired at the end of last season?

I laughed.

[Political Hack]

I disagree. I think it's still within the realm of possibility that we do not suck next year or the next. Especially if we have minimal injuries.

man, I hope you're right but I just can't see this team making a tournament push. If they do I'll be the loudest advocate for Ricky Ray as national coach of the year though.

[Political Hack]

This is far from a foregone conclusion. It's just your opinion -- and it's pretty far out in left field from the actual concrete facts we have at this point.

You don't pull the plug in year 2 of what was LONG KNOWN to be a 2 year rebuild. Period. I can't believe you've allowed yourself to get hung up on this to this level.

He gets 3 years. He deserves 3 years. Real evaluations happen next year. Otherwise, you are simply identifying yourself with the overly emotional and reactionary facet of our fanbase...

actually I think anyone who doesn't evaluate progress two years into a head coach's tenure should be fired from our athletic department immediately and without hesitation.

Opinions and pre-season expectations don't have a bit of impact W's and L's, but they matter for ticket sales. You are right that's it an opinion that we will not be much better by next year, but I still don't believe next year should be the benchmark if he's allowed to stay. It has to be at least two years from now. The program is simply not in a position to compete for meaningful wins (wins as in plural) next season. If next year's the benchmark for obvious progress, you may as well cut bait now IN MY OPINION.

[engie]

Like the morons calling for Mullen to be fired at the end of last season?

Who was calling for him to be fired at the end of last season?

[engie]

actually I think anyone who doesn't evaluate progress two years into a head coach's tenure should be fired from our athletic department immediately and without hesitation.

Opinions and pre-season expectations don't have a bit of impact W's and L's, but they matter for ticket sales. You are right that's it an opinion that we will not be much better by next year, but I still don't believe next year should be the benchmark if he's allowed to stay. It has to be at least two years from now. The program is simply not in a position to compete for meaningful wins (wins as in plural) next season. If next year's the benchmark for obvious progress, you may as well cut bait now IN MY OPINION.

So, you were in favor of running Cohen in year 2 -- when he went regressed from year 1 in basically every way?

[601Dawg]

We sure tore the nets up tonight 0-15 from three

[mcdawg]

You named 3 National Championship programs- you are out of touch with reality.

Name a program similar to ours Please, Pleaseeee...give us just one example of a team not named Kentucky that fired its coach, lost all 5 starters, kicked 3 off for drugs, and lost 2 more to ACL injuries- and won? Just one, thats all I want. ONE. Uno.

How about don't fire your all-time winningest coach when you are losing all 5 starters and hire the 2nd-3rd assistant coach on an average team that has never been a head coach or recruited in your marketplace? PLEASE, PLEASEEEE ... tell me another school that is dumb enough to do this! Any other school/AD would know that you will lose 13 games in a row your first year and 13 games in a row your second year along with having 1000 people at your ballgames by the end of the year. If you really think we are in better shape, than you have reread your own posts and brainwashed yourself.

[Intramural All-American]

i am still awaiting some kind of basketball insight from You, where i might think you know any more than 61. Voice what you believe and the people that read it will figure out who the idiot is without you pointing it out.--Careful-it might point to You.. If you have to stoop to name calling to make your point then you really don't have one.

Well let's see, Dawg61 said Cunningham was better than Sword last year, and Dawg61 said that Travis Outlaw was not good, a guy who spent 10 years in the NBA. Those two points right there point that Dawg61 is the least knowledgeable poster about basketball on this board. How people agree with his outlandish views are beyond me. I understand people being frustrated with Ray, and I even can see why some less informed people would want to fire him. But to throw your name in the same pot with this bozo just makes you look like a fool.

[Dawg61]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131107180644/halofanon/images/6/6c/2304795-good_good_let_the_butthurt_flow_through_you_1.jpg