MSU baseball....what if

[bully99]

Since we're playing the what if game. What would msu baseball look like today if Ron Polk never came to State which came very close to happening.

In 1975 if Ron Frazier the coach at Miami had taken the Managers job with the Chicago White Sox as most expected him to , Polk was going to be the Miami coach. Polk was so sure he was gonna get the Miami job, he already hired his pitching coach, Skip Bertman. Plus you had Jimmy Bragan who only coached one year because his old State teammate Alex Grammas got the Milwaukee Brewers managers job and hired Bragan to be his coach.

If all that didn't happen, Polk would never have been at State and baseball might be a whole different story today.

[maroonmania]

I don't know, but I personally can't see how Polk and Bertman could have EVER co-existed on the same staff. They had about as diverse of priorities as any 2 college baseball coaches I know of. Bertman was all about winning and didn't mind abusing a kid to do it. Polk was more of I want to win but the main thing is a kid having a nice well-rounded college experience. I actually think Cohen is the best mix, he is DEFINITELY about winning but I don't see him abusing the health or well being of his players to do it. Basically things like pitching guys on way too little rest or trying to beef someone up on steroids or whatever else was needed to make them into a power hitter.

[engie]

We would have still gotten an elite college baseball coach and the end result would have still been pretty similar -- because we were the ONLY TEAM IN THE SOUTHEAST willing to pay someone to coach baseball full-time at that point in time. All other coaches at that time had to teach classes as well and/or were "part time" jobs. Our hiring of Polk changed that in the southeast.

When Polk came on board, the "machine" that is Mississippi State baseball already had the wheels turning with fan support, LFL, an abnormal(for the time) amount of investment into the program, etc. That's the problem I have when people say Polk "made" Mississippi State baseball. No, he didn't. He furthered something that was already tinkering on the verge of greatness. Us turning a profit in the 80s "made" Bertman and LSU. So, in that way, Polk did "make" SEC baseball. But as far as Mississippi State is concerned, he was the guy that was in the right place at the right time.

We've now been to Omaha for 5 straight decades with 4 different coaches...

[bgover4]

If Polk and Bertman did manage to make things work what could have happened at Miami?

[Coach34]

Miss State baseball was good before Ron Polk and would have been good had we not hired Ron Polk. We won 12 SEC titles before Polk stepped foot on campus- and should have won 2 others in the 1960's. We had been to Omaha just 5 years before we hired Polk.

[Goat from MSU]

Miss State baseball was good before Ron Polk and would have been good had we not hired Ron Polk. We won 12 SEC titles before Polk stepped foot on campus- and should have won 2 others in the 1960's. We had been to Omaha just 5 years before we hired Polk.

That was my first year at State, Polk was left with good talent. I love Basketball but baseball games then were fun too. We had good crowds then too.

[bully99]

What? The only team in the southeast to pay? Polks starting salary was $7500 PER YEAR. Polk opperated on a shoestring budget with a very bad facility. The program underachieved. We had lots of good talent in the sixties but it was the black bears who went to the college world series three times. Amazing how you peoples hate of Polk never ceases to astound me. How many damn people would have spent their whole life building a program with no budget and no facility. Like football and basketball, too many delusional fans who think everybody is fighting over a chance to coach msu.

Polk was left with good talent is just a dumb statement. The team batting average was around.200' It was bad team that had become a bad program.
.

[engie]

LOL K

Your anti-Cohen agenda is beginning to come into focus now....

[bulldogcountry1]

I'm not old enough to recall the pre-Polk years or even his first few, but when I look at the talent he had in the 80's I think he grossly underachieved. We should have come away with 2 NCs in that decade or at least come much closer.

He defintely underachieved after that. He kept baseball relevant, but he obviously didn't have that extra something you need to be elite. His attention was divided.

[BrunswickDawg]

I think if Jimmy Bragan had stayed you would have seen similar results. Bragan was a top notch baseball guy - and built the Southern League into a leading minor league organization at a time when minor leagues were really struggling. That takes the same drive, or more, than building a college program. I interned in the Southern League office one summer - and he seemed like a nice guy - and he had great baseball stories.

[bully99]

Lol engine. Like your anti polk agenda is not self evident. Lol

[MadDawg]

Dang I knew there was a lot of anti-Polk sentiment but I never thought I'd read posts saying "we didn't really need him at all".

[bully99]

The stupidity of the young. Jimmy Bragan would have done what Polk did is laughable.His heart was surely in it, that's why he left after one year. You can hate Polk, but at least give him his due.

[Coach34]

Polk was a good coach and his greatest asset was organizing the program and raising money. It's not his fault he was brought back for a 2nd tenure

[bully99]

Polks heart was never in it after 1992 when he quit for two weeks to become the head of the college baseball coaches and then came back. I think lost his love of the game and didn't realize Bertman was passing him by until it was too late.

[BrunswickDawg]

The stupidity of the young. Jimmy Bragan would have done what Polk did is laughable.His heart was surely in it, that's why he left after one year. You can hate Polk, but at least give him his due.

You opened that door by asking "what if Bragan didn't leave". My point was that someone who has the capability to build a baseball organization - like a league - and had a lengthy career is just as likely to have been able to build a program. You act like Polk is the only person to have ever built a program - and that is asinine.

[Coach34]

Polk was very good for Miss State- no doubt about it.

I just take issue with "Polk built Miss State baseball"....no he didnt- we were good in baseball before Polk...but he did raise it a level without a doubt...he just wasnt an "elite" coach imo...very good though.

And **** him for being an ass to me that day when I was 16...I got a huge save against that Memphis team loaded with college players....you dont smart off to a kid right after he does that...

[Goat Holder]

engie and Coach34....ya'll are off on this one.

Polk DID build MSU baseball. Sure we were OK before, and probably could have been OK without him. But he was the one who rallied the troops and built Dudy Noble, which is, in reality, what built MSU baseball. Without that stadium, we ain't shit. Polk got us ahead of the curve in that regard, we're on the better end of it. Everybody else has updated or built a new stadium that they'll keep for 3 decades, and we're about to pass them all.....basically because of timing.

[Todd4State]

Wow. Cohen just took us to our best finish in school history and Polk still has some loyalists that insist we aren't doing things the right way. Ron was probably in the wrong profession- he probably should have started his own cult and lived out in Sturgis, MS or somewhere.

MSU has had success in baseball pretty much from the time the program started. We produced Mississippi's first MLB player ever- Willie Mitchell. Buddy Myer was a second baseman from the 20's that many believe should be in the HOF. We have won SEC titles under RP Patty, Paul Gregory- who actually has more SEC regular season titles that Polk if I am not mistaken, and Polk of course. Dudy Noble also won some SIAC titles in the 20's- the league that was the fore runner to the SEC. I'd argue that Gregory had almost as much impact as well as Tom D'Armi- on our baseball program as Polk. They built the stadium on the current location, the LFL started when he was coach, and he took us to our first CWS.

What would have happened if we didn't hire Polk? No one really knows, but I'm pretty sure given the fact that we were one of the few "baseball" schools in the conference, Coach Tyler would have probably made a better than average hire. Maybe he takes a chance and hires Skip Bertman. Boo Ferriss was at Delta State and would have done very well at MSU and I would say that there is probably a better than average chance that we could have gotten him. D'Armi went on Duke after we hired Polk and he may have done a good job as well.

To suggest that we wouldn't be as good as we are now without Polk is equally as uncertain as suggesting that we would have been OK without him. Coach Polk was a part of our program, and I am happy that he was. He accomplished a lot for us and helped elevate the program- and now it's time for Cohen to take the reigns and try to elevate it some more.

Under Cohen we have finished second in Omaha, our best on the field finish in our history, our players are setting records in the classroom and have had articles published about how open they are about their faith. Cohen has also continued the Diamond Girls. I mention those things because those were "fears" from the anti-Cohen fans. In the meantime, we are developing first round picks- Stratton and Renfroe, and our recruiting has also picked up- our 2015 and 2016 classes are shaping up to be some of our best ever and have top 10 potential.

I don't hate Polk- I never have. I have disagreed with many of his moves. I disagreed with bringing him back and that was a horrible decision that set us back 10 years. I also praised him for winning the SEC Tournament in 2005 and for getting us to Omaha in 2007. I was one of the very, very, very few on sixpack that actually advocated possibly bringing Polk back as a volunteer assistant even though I will admit that would be a bad decision because I want very badly for Polk to be a part of our program and I want it to work. I also understand that Polk made his decision to not be a part of our program with his actions because he disagreed with bringing Cohen in- and that is his choice. I can not forgive for Ron Polk.

Ron Polk had his time- and that time has passed. It is time to move on and go forward. We did not move forward in 2001 and we nearly destroyed our program. Just like I will be replaced where I work one day, as will all of us. His style late in his career has it's place- and that place is at Mississippi College where he can be the grandfatherly baseball coach that loves his players and winning and losing doesn't matter as much as the experience. That will not cut it in today's AA baseball level of SEC baseball where it is ultra competitive and getting better every single year. With Polk right now we would be MSU 2008-2010 or even worse as hard as that is to imagine. Dudy-Noble would be an old cold stadium with a couple of hundred people grilling in the outfield and a few people sitting on sits with their names on them- with hundreds more empty and basically tombstones, which would be very symbolic in a way.

As far as Ole Miss baseball in the 50's- TOTALLY different ball game. Baseball was a way for their football players to stay in shape. And that was when Ole Miss was actually winning in football, and therefore they had really talented athletes on the baseball team. Heck- Archie Manning is one of Ole Miss's best BASEBALL players in their history. The CWS in 1960 wasn't what it is today either. Unless you truly believe that Yale would be a better baseball program than us had it not been for Ron Polk. Ole Miss baseball would have crapped out as things changed- with or without Polk. Much like their football team after integration.

As far as Bragan- I think he was a good coach and a good baseball man obviously. BUT he also pissed off about half the team because he was crazy. He accused my Dad of smoking pot for absolutely no reason whatsoever- and stuff like that was apparently pretty typical of him. He did stuff like make our catchers block balls in the dirt from a pitching machine set as high as it could go while not wearing a chest protector. And that wasn't a punishment- that was just Bragan. Anyway- about half the team quit on him and didn't give a shit. Sometimes they would go up there and swing and the first three pitches that they saw and sat down. Hence the team .200 batting average. Now, that said- had Bragan stayed he may very well have gone on to become a very good coach for us. But when Polk came in, the team was very happy. They were better than their 15 wins or whatever from 1975 from a talent standpoint. And it didn't take Tom Lasorda to get that out of them.

[Todd4State]

I don't know, but I personally can't see how Polk and Bertman could have EVER co-existed on the same staff. They had about as diverse of priorities as any 2 college baseball coaches I know of. Bertman was all about winning and didn't mind abusing a kid to do it. Polk was more of I want to win but the main thing is a kid having a nice well-rounded college experience. I actually think Cohen is the best mix, he is DEFINITELY about winning but I don't see him abusing the health or well being of his players to do it. Basically things like pitching guys on way too little rest or trying to beef someone up on steroids or whatever else was needed to make them into a power hitter.

They would have been fine. Polk and Bertman were actually friends to a degree on a professional level. But neither one of them was in charge at Miami. They would have done whatever Ron Fraser told them to do- whether they agreed with it or not.

[Todd4State]

If Polk and Bertman did manage to make things work what could have happened at Miami?


They won NC's anyway. And they are the stump in the SEC baseball tree- including our program is an offshoot from them.

[bully99]

Never heard anybody say it was a good idea to bring Polk back 15 years ago.

[Todd4State]

Never heard anybody say it was a good idea to bring Polk back 15 years ago.

If you read Genespage 15 years ago you would have. "Polk's batteries seem to be re-charged!" was a common theme on there at that time.

No one is accusing you of saying that it was a good idea to bring him back either.

And actually me calling out Polk in 2005's Mayor's Trophy Game on Genespage led to someone sending me a PM about posting on sixpack. Just reminiscing.

[tcdog70]

One of Gregory's best teams, won the Gastonia Regional. I think we could have won it ALL but we had too leave four of out top players at home. maybe two of our best pitchers ever. Brantley Jones and Mike Hall along with Jocko Potts and Bill rorie. Something about playing as Freshmen.

[BrunswickDawg]

As far as Bragan- I think he was a good coach and a good baseball man obviously. BUT he also pissed off about half the team because he was crazy. He accused my Dad of smoking pot for absolutely no reason whatsoever- and stuff like that was apparently pretty typical of him. He did stuff like make our catchers block balls in the dirt from a pitching machine set as high as it could go while not wearing a chest protector. And that wasn't a punishment- that was just Bragan. Anyway- about half the team quit on him and didn't give a shit. Sometimes they would go up there and swing and the first three pitches that they saw and sat down. Hence the team .200 batting average. Now, that said- had Bragan stayed he may very well have gone on to become a very good coach for us. But when Polk came in, the team was very happy. They were better than their 15 wins or whatever from 1975 from a talent standpoint. And it didn't take Tom Lasorda to get that out of them.

The things you don't know unless you were there or know someone who was....
Stuff like that is what is what makes conversations like this pointless sometimes. The reality is no one knows.

[Todd4State]

The things you don't know unless you were there or know someone who was....
Stuff like that is what is what makes conversations like this pointless sometimes. The reality is no one knows.

Exactly. Although Bragan never coached again as a head coach. The exact circumstances of his departure are kind of strange. My Dad said a lot of the cigar boys were already not happy with him and he thinks that Grammas kind of "saved" him from further shame at his alma mater.

He was most successful as the President of the Southern League- which is actually a nice feather in our cap at MSU.

Bragan was so bad that it caused our fans to buy into Polk very quickly when he miraculously almost doubled our win total. I have often wondered if Bragan's antics shaped Polk and his attitude as far as "what MSU fans wanted"- and may be why he thought Cohen was a bad choice for us. It may go all the way back to that.

[Goat Holder]

That's the problem with your viewpoint in this thread. This isn't Genespage 1999. It's Elitedawgs 2014. Nobody wanted Polk back. Nobody's advocating that. All people are saying is that Polk deserves credit for what he did for our program from 1970-whenever to 1997. You're trying to create a viewpoint by 'Polk Sheep' that's simply not there. Even the staunchest of those are gone after last year, except maybe bully99 but he's 0.001%.

Polk did much for our program. We'll never know what could have been had he not come, but we sure as hell know what happened because he did. You need to hang this shit up and give him credit for his accomplishments. In other words, stop bashing him. That time is gone. His influence is gone.

You self righteous short memory guys remember one thing though, while you're on your soapbox. John Cohen is an MSU guy because of Ron Polk. Along with countless other baseball stars in the MLB.

Give the shit up. Cohen took the high road, take the hint yourself. Forgive the sawed off bastard and move on.

[Schultzy]

That's the problem with your viewpoint in this thread. This isn't Genespage 1999. It's Elitedawgs 2014. Nobody wanted Polk back. Nobody's advocating that. All people are saying is that Polk deserves credit for what he did for our program from 1970-whenever to 1997. You're trying to create a viewpoint by 'Polk Sheep' that's simply not there. Even the staunchest of those are gone after last year, except maybe bully99 but he's 0.001%.

Polk did much for our program. We'll never know what could have been had he not come, but we sure as hell know what happened because he did. You need to hang this shit up and give him credit for his accomplishments. In other words, stop bashing him. That time is gone. His influence is gone.

You self righteous short memory guys remember one thing though, while you're on your soapbox. John Cohen is an MSU guy because of Ron Polk. Along with countless other baseball stars in the MLB.

Give the shit up. Cohen took the high road, take the hint yourself. Forgive the sawed off bastard and move on.

^^^ This. And just because someone says something generally positive about Polk, it doesn't mean you're anti Cohen.

It's not an either/or thing.

His departure was a strange one but the success he had here was not guaranteed either, as some seem to think it was.

[dawgman]

Mike Profitt and Sammy Milner and Ken Phares also on that team. Freshmen were legal in SEC but not in NCAA so if you played as a freshman in the SEC, you could not play in the NCAA post season.

[Coach34]

Go to wiki and check MSU baseball thru the years- we've never been bad. We had a few bad seasons here and there- but overall State baseball has always been good.

Polk got a big stadium built before everybody else- that's one of the best things he did.

[Todd4State]

The problem is the way Polk left made it so that our fans had to pick a side- and it never should have been that way.

[Coach34]

just like in basketball

[Schultzy]

just like in basketball

I don't deny our history being of help, but it certainly didn't guarantee the success Polk had. He did take it to a higher level than previous with the multiple CWS appearances. The ease he had in recruiting hurt him in the latter years when that part of it changed so drastically from the eighties to the nineties.

I hope our hoops history helps Ray as much as it did Polk.

And I want to hear the smack Polk had for you after that game you saved! That sounds like a good story.