The impatient stupidity of our fans regarding Rick Ray

[OliveBranchDawg]

Been a lurker on this board since it was created, but the constant bashing and unknowledgeable dismissal of Rick Ray as a basketball coach and leader of our program has driven me to write this post.

First off, I attended State from 07-11, so I witnessed the decline of the Stans era, but also old enough to remember when he was a great coach for our program. Key word: WAS, couldn't agree more with the decision by our athletic administration to let him go. People will point to Renardo Sidney as the downfall of Stansbury, but what also needs to be said is Stansbury had every chance to cut him loose... & didn't. Sidney was definitely a cancer to our basketball team, but no bigger than how Stansbury ran the program. Constant attrition (Walter Sharpe, Phil Turner, Romero Osby, Twany Beckham, Delk twins, Ben Hansborough, Elgin Bailey.. need I continue?), all the while keeping kids on our team with terrible attitudes & lazy work ethic on & off the court (Sidney, Kodi Augustus, & Ravern Johnson). These decisions & not holding players accountable was the writing on the wall for Stansbury & our basketball program during the last few seasons. Our fans, myself included, ignored all these signs (mainly because we were highly talented & competitive) until eventually the bottom fell out in 2012.

In stepped Rick Ray to clean up our broken & cancerous basketball program. One that was in decline for the last 5 seasons. Sure, we had our bright spots during the last few seasons under Stansbury, but a team will win games when you arguably have a top 3 roster in the SEC talent-wise. Talent wins you games in basketball, on the collegiate & professional level. We are learning that the hard way under Ray right now.

Our roster is currently the worst in the SEC, and you can't argue with that. Zero depth & we are playing kids that would be solid church-league players. Seriously. This is not a bash on our players post because they play hard, but right now we only have 3 quality players on the entire roster(Sword, Ready, Ware). The casual, lazy basketball fan will point at Ray for not recruiting his first two seasons. That is not the case at all. Stansbury created a culture that had a high attrition rate & didn't hold players accountable, which in turn led to a complete deterioration of our roster. Deville Smith, Wendell Lewis, Shaun Smith, Jalen Steele, Rodney Hood, Kristers Zeidaks are players that could be on our team today that have either transferred or have been kicked off the team for disciplinary reasons because they were never taught discipline or were held accountable for their actions in the Stansbury era from day 1. Throw in Travis Daniels sitting out this season & the NCAA screwing us with the Fallou Ndoye situation and this is the craptastic roster we have. I do not blame Rick Ray for any of this.

Stansbury did a lot of great things for our program, including setting high expectations which in turn has led to many of our fans ripping Ray. I'm not telling you Rick Ray is the next coach K, but I do believe we should hold judgement until he can actually field a team with a full roster. Again, it cannot be said enough, WE HAVE THE WORST ROSTER IN THE SEC! And remarkably, we lost to Kentucky and Florida(#1 team in the country) by ten points. Think about that for a minute. I believe dismissing Ray as head coach is lazy, and you do not understand what this program has been through the last few seasons. Like Bart Hyche said in his letter, we have some actual coaching going on at practice, for the first time in awhile. Our current coach is still trying to dig out of the hole our previous coach left behind. All Ray needs is time and a few more talented bodies.

Hail Damn State

[smootness]

Slow clap.

But you'll have several claiming the roster is fully Ray's fault here in a minute.

[rabbitthedawg]

You have to win in college athletics to remain. Rick Ray isn't going anywhere soon, he seems to be a good coach and is very personable. What is done is done, no sense in dragging up what has already happened. Next year when Ray has some depth, he should win some of those close games we are now losing.

[chef dixon]

I don't think the school has any intention of canning Ray or not giving him a chance, so we will find out the verdict in due time. If we aren't significantly (as in winning most home games in conference) better next season I'll be pretty concerned. We will have at least 5 new faces and only losing Borchert, and we all the sudden won't be so "young and inexperienced" anymore.

[Coach34]

Post more please

[Bothrops]

Been a lurker on this board since it was created, but the constant bashing and unknowledgeable dismissal of Rick Ray as a basketball coach and leader of our program has driven me to write this post.

First off, I attended State from 07-11, so I witnessed the decline of the Stans era, but also old enough to remember when he was a great coach for our program. Key word: WAS, couldn't agree more with the decision by our athletic administration to let him go. People will point to Renardo Sidney as the downfall of Stansbury, but what also needs to be said is Stansbury had every chance to cut him loose... & didn't. Sidney was definitely a cancer to our basketball team, but no bigger than how Stansbury ran the program. Constant attrition (Walter Sharpe, Phil Turner, Romero Osby, Twany Beckham, Delk twins, Ben Hansborough, Elgin Bailey.. need I continue?), all the while keeping kids on our team with terrible attitudes & lazy work ethic on & off the court (Sidney, Kodi Augustus, & Ravern Johnson). These decisions & not holding players accountable was the writing on the wall for Stansbury & our basketball program during the last few seasons. Our fans, myself included, ignored all these signs (mainly because we were highly talented & competitive) until eventually the bottom fell out in 2012.

In stepped Rick Ray to clean up our broken & cancerous basketball program. One that was in decline for the last 5 seasons. Sure, we had our bright spots during the last few seasons under Stansbury, but a team will win games when you arguably have a top 3 roster in the SEC talent-wise. Talent wins you games in basketball, on the collegiate & professional level. We are learning that the hard way under Ray right now.

Our roster is currently the worst in the SEC, and you can't argue with that. Zero depth & we are playing kids that would be solid church-league players. Seriously. This is not a bash on our players post because they play hard, but right now we only have 3 quality players on the entire roster(Sword, Ready, Ware). The casual, lazy basketball fan will point at Ray for not recruiting his first two seasons. That is not the case at all. Stansbury created a culture that had a high attrition rate & didn't hold players accountable, which in turn led to a complete deterioration of our roster. Deville Smith, Wendell Lewis, Shaun Smith, Jalen Steele, Rodney Hood, Kristers Zeidaks are players that could be on our team today that have either transferred or have been kicked off the team for disciplinary reasons because they were never taught discipline or were held accountable for their actions in the Stansbury era from day 1. Throw in Travis Daniels sitting out this season & the NCAA screwing us with the Fallou Ndoye situation and this is the craptastic roster we have. I do not blame Rick Ray for any of this.

Stansbury did a lot of great things for our program, including setting high expectations which in turn has led to many of our fans ripping Ray. I'm not telling you Rick Ray is the next coach K, but I do believe we should hold judgement until he can actually field a team with a full roster. Again, it cannot be said enough, WE HAVE THE WORST ROSTER IN THE SEC! And remarkably, we lost to Kentucky and Florida(#1 team in the country) by ten points. Think about that for a minute. I believe dismissing Ray as head coach is lazy, and you do not understand what this program has been through the last few seasons. Like Bart Hyche said in his letter, we have some actual coaching going on at practice, for the first time in awhile. Our current coach is still trying to dig out of the hole our previous coach left behind. All Ray needs is time and a few more talented bodies.

Hail Damn State

I agree with all of this, except I would put Borchert in the place of Ware for the top 3 on the team. Yes..I know.

[chef dixon]

The only major issue I have with what Ray is doing currently is Gavin Ware is only averaging 6 or so shot attempts per game. That number should be doubled.

[Jack Lambert]

I was not on the fire Stans wagon but did not care one way or another and I am not on the fire Ray wagon but if he is going into games next season with only 7 scholarship members of the team and he is getting beat by 20 consistently and on a 10 game losing slide, he needs to be fired. Three years is plenty of time to build a program to be at least competitive.

[Irondawg]

Ray isn't going anywhere so we should all agree to drop the talk of firing him after this season. However, next year has to show measurable improvement. I do agree we have one of the worst 2-3 rosters in the league (SC and a&m suck pretty bad too).

However, I've seen some things from Ray from a pure coaching standpoint that cause me some concern. For instance as our offense has become better our defense has become much worse the second half of the season. We don's seem to be nearly as intense on that end as we were last year and earlier in the year.

I think we have to find a way to get Ware more shot attempts as well.

Next year is big for Ray. But as many others have said it's all about talent and he's got bring some in.

[Political Hack]

it's the end of year two and we're making excuses for a 10 game losing streak instead of explaining why next year is going to be much improved. Continually blaming Stans, while certainly a part of the equation, is fun for some of you, it's pointless in helping shape the future of this program.

We need significant changes in talent level, focus on fundamentals, and basic basketball skills that any major D1 player should posses (ball control, passing, shooting, rebounding). Last year I was excited because I saw significant improvement in some of those areas that I had never seen under Stans. This year I'm seeing a lack of transition defense at times. A team that allows a lot of second chance points despite playing a man to man defense. Our best slasher dribbling out of bounds out of control on our last hope to win against Tennessee. Not a single 3-point shooter on our roster. 1 player with any inside presence. A team that depends on getting to the goal because we can't shoot outsider, but for some in-Godly explanation this same team doesn't focus on shooting free throws well. We have very little talent and we don't do the small things the way we should to get the most out of our talent. it's frustrating to watch and some of these issues should've been solved in the first two months of practice... not still lagging two years into the Ray era.

All that said, I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that things can progress rapidly between now and next year that will give 1) fans, 2) the administration, and most importantly, the 3) players confidence that the program is going to take the next step and compete in the SEC.

[thunderclap]

I will be pleasantly shocked if next year looks any different than this year. This Ray debate is pretty similar to the Croom debate after year 2, and . . .

[dawgs]

the problem is that ray isn't recruiting on a level that brings any hope for the future. or strickland won't let him recruit on the level. either way, the results will be the same - we just won't have the talent level to win consistently.

[BogeyGolfer]

Whether it's his fault or not is debatable but I don't think Ray can or will be successful at MSU. It is going to take a philosophy change and coaching change to make a difference . In today's college basketball it's about image and recruiting. This is why you can sign 4 freshman out of high school all of them start and make a run in the tourney. In today's college basketball if you wait 4 years to build a program you will get left behind. Make the change now, Strick!

[HancockCountyDog]

By the way, anyone comparing people bitching about Ray as the same stupid idiots that bitched about Cohen, is just silly.

People that bitched about Cohen were stupid because Cohen had an ESTABLISHED TRACK RECORD of success in the SEC. He had proven that he could get it done. Ray has not established anything as of yet.

I think Ray should get 4 years, but Im not happy about where we are or where we appear to be headed, but Im not in favor of firing him. Now, if you told me right now we could hire Bruce Pearl? I would drive to Starkville myself and start loading Ray's shit in a truck.

[smootness]

Whether it's his fault or not is debatable but I don't think Ray can or will be successful at MSU. It is going to take a philosophy change and coaching change to make a difference . In today's college basketball it's about image and recruiting. This is why you can sign 4 freshman out of high school all of them start and make a run in the tourney. In today's college basketball if you wait 4 years to build a program you will get left behind. Make the change now, Strick!

No, this is not at all true. There are plenty of SEC schools recruiting at a high level, and they're terrible. It is not all about recruiting unless you're doing so at a UK level. The end of Stans' tenure proved that.

You are right, though...if you wait to build a program, you will get left behind. Just don't ask Tom Crean...or Leonard Hamilton...or Gregg Marshall...or Brad Stevens...or Tony Bennett...or Fran McCaffery...or Mick Cronin...

Yeah, if you don't win year 1, you're toast**

[engie]

The only major issue I have with what Ray is doing currently is Gavin Ware is only averaging 6 or so shot attempts per game. That number should be doubled.

Teams are playing us inside-out because we don't have anyone that can consistently create their own shots outside and hit the 3's. When you can't extend the defense = Ware practically always being double/triple teamed.

And I agree 100% with the OP. Great post.

[engie]

I will be pleasantly shocked if next year looks any different than this year. This Ray debate is pretty similar to the Croom debate after year 2, and . . .

and IDENTICAL to the Cohen debate in year 2... with many of the same players taking the same stances...

[engie]

By the way, anyone comparing people bitching about Ray as the same stupid idiots that bitched about Cohen, is just silly.

People that bitched about Cohen were stupid because Cohen had an ESTABLISHED TRACK RECORD of success in the SEC. He had proven that he could get it done. Ray has not established anything as of yet.

I think Ray should get 4 years, but Im not happy about where we are or where we appear to be headed, but Im not in favor of firing him. Now, if you told me right now we could hire Bruce Pearl? I would drive to Starkville myself and start loading Ray's shit in a truck.

None of Cohen's track record shit mattered at the time. NONE OF IT. It's the same idiots taking the same stances with the same amount of impatience.

[engie]

No, this is not at all true. There are plenty of SEC schools recruiting at a high level, and they're terrible. It is not all about recruiting unless you're doing so at a UK level. The end of Stans' tenure proved that.

You are right, though...if you wait to build a program, you will get left behind. Just don't ask Tom Crean...or Leonard Hamilton...or Gregg Marshall...or Brad Stevens...or Tony Bennett...or Fran McCaffery...or Mick Cronin...

Yeah, if you don't win year 1, you're toast**

Amen

[HancockCountyDog]

None of Cohen's track record shit mattered at the time. NONE OF IT. It's the same idiots taking the same stances with the same amount of impatience.

That is my point - those people making those comments were 10 times more ignorant then the comments on Ray.

The people bashing Ray are still impatient, but the defenders of Ray can't point to any objective basis to show that Ray can be a competent head coach. That is a pretty big difference in my opinion, and Im in favor of Ray getting 4 years, but Im also not willing to say that he has proven anything other than an ability to beat the bears which almost all of our coaches do in every sport.

[RougeDawg]

Slow clap.

But you'll have several claiming the roster is fully Ray's fault here in a minute.

There are Juco teams that would beat this State team. That's all anyone should need to know considering any JUCO player would give one, maybe both, testicles to play for a SEC program. And our coach had 0.00000 connections to players at other universities that may be looking to transfer? Would you rather play for Directional Poly Tech or a SEC program? Basketball has more attrition than any other sport, yet we can't seem to find a single guy. There are 0.000 JUCO guys who were freshman last year that couldn't have helped us this year? You Ray apologists who are giving him a pass for 8 ****ing scholarship players need to ask yourselves these simple questions. It's not that difficult.

This is the main thing that pisses most of us off. He can't even sell scholarships to able bodies. Had he done this we would have been winning this year. Is he holding into those scollys as a pity crutch? Ask yourself the above questions and it sure looks that way.

[SouthMsDawg]

it's the end of year two and we're making excuses for a 10 game losing streak instead of explaining why next year is going to be much improved. Continually blaming Stans, while certainly a part of the equation, is fun for some of you, it's pointless in helping shape the future of this program.

We need significant changes in talent level, focus on fundamentals, and basic basketball skills that any major D1 player should posses (ball control, passing, shooting, rebounding). Last year I was excited because I saw significant improvement in some of those areas that I had never seen under Stans. This year I'm seeing a lack of transition defense at times. A team that allows a lot of second chance points despite playing a man to man defense. Our best slasher dribbling out of bounds out of control on our last hope to win against Tennessee. Not a single 3-point shooter on our roster. 1 player with any inside presence. A team that depends on getting to the goal because we can't shoot outsider, but for some in-Godly explanation this same team doesn't focus on shooting free throws well. We have very little talent and we don't do the small things the way we should to get the most out of our talent. it's frustrating to watch and some of these issues should've been solved in the first two months of practice... not still lagging two years into the Ray era.

All that said, I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that things can progress rapidly between now and next year that will give 1) fans, 2) the administration, and most importantly, the 3) players confidence that the program is going to take the next step and compete in the SEC.

Im in 100% agreement with HACK

[HancockCountyDog]

No, this is not at all true. There are plenty of SEC schools recruiting at a high level, and they're terrible. It is not all about recruiting unless you're doing so at a UK level. The end of Stans' tenure proved that.

You are right, though...if you wait to build a program, you will get left behind. Just don't ask Tom Crean...or Leonard Hamilton...or Gregg Marshall...or Brad Stevens...or Tony Bennett...or Fran McCaffery...or Mick Cronin...

Yeah, if you don't win year 1, you're toast**

Well lets be fair, the guys you listed their record at their previous job before getting hired was outstanding (Italics):

Tom Crean - Before he got to IU and had a track record that included, a Final Four, and 4 other NCAA tourney appearances in 7 years.

Leonard Hamilton - Winning record at OSU and took Miami to 3 straight NCAA tourneys, then got hired at FSU, and people didn't care about the first few years because he had a proven track record of success.

Gregg Marshall - Winning track record at Wintrhop - Three straight NCAA tourney bids 194-83 record;

Brad Stevens - Umm, he won 30 games his first season at Butler. Not sure how he is on this list. His example doens't help Ray much at all. So on behalf of Rick Ray, please stop helping.

Tony Bennett - a 69-33 record at WSU, 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 3 years, then hired by Virginia an in his 3rd year he won 22 games in the ACC. He went 7-9 in the ACC in his 2nd year.

Fran McCaffery - 112-51 record at Siena. Three straight tourney bids. Had Iowa 8-10 in Big 10 in his second year. 25 wins in year two.

Mick Cronin - 69-24 record at Murray State, two NCAA bids in 3years. Proven track record. Cincy had every reason to give him time.

Im not sure the parallel that you are trying to draw between Ray and these guys you mentioned. Each one had established himself as a great coach before getting a bigger job at a school that was in need of a rebuild. Ray has no such record.

If anything, your post and the coaches you listed, shows the importance of hiring a seasoned coach when you are doing a rebuild.

[Dirtbagdawg]

Can we just not talk about basketball? I mean seriously. We suck. What's there
to discuss? I personally wish beat writers would stop
Covering the game. It's a waste of time and it fills up my twitter feed on game days. Let's focus on baseball, recruiting,
and this upcoming football season. Our basketball team doesnt deserve our attention nor recognition.

[HancockCountyDog]

Slow clap.

But you'll have several claiming the roster is fully Ray's fault here in a minute.

I wouldn't say it is fully Ray's fault, but he had three signing period since he was HC tha could put players on the floor this year. One in April when he was hired, another in November of 2012, and one more in April of 2013. All three time periods and we have Bloodman, Borchert and Ready that are contributing. We signed 4 guys in April after Ray was hired. The bigger issue is only signing two guys - Ndoye and Ready in 2013. With our roster, that should have never happened. We should have signed 5-7 players. That is on Ray. Problem is that we only have 3 signed for next year, none of which could be remotely considered impact players.

Right now, the biggest problem Ray has is his complete failure in 2013 to sign talent. That was a big time **** up, and one he may not recover from.

[PMDawg]

Wow. Coach34 created an alter ego.

You won't find many denying most of what you wrote. I certainly won't. But there's two parts to coaching college sports. Coaching and recruiting. He appears to be a good coach. He appears to be a poor recruiter. Let's see where he's at in 13 months and it may be worth debating. At this point, it's ridiculous to argue either way. We need a better sample size on the recruiting, but the trend is making me nervous.

[DawgInMemphis]

The only major issue I have with what Ray is doing currently is Gavin Ware is only averaging 6 or so shot attempts per game. That number should be doubled.

I don't feel like looking it up, but it seems like Ware's minutes aren't what you'd want them to be as our top offensive post option. He's always in foul trouble because other teams game-plan to attack him knowing we have no post depth (and Ware isn't a shot-blocker). Also, with Ray's offense we pass the ball - a lot - in the half court offense. This is also going to limit Ware's touches because we don't have as many possessions. He also sees constant double and triple teams because we don't have consistent outside threats. A better metric to judge him on this would be to see what Ware's averaging in points/playing time. Again, I haven't looked at the numbers, but these are the trends I'd expect to see.

[TheRef]

I don't feel like looking it up, but it seems like Ware's minutes aren't what you'd want them to be as our top offensive post option. He's always in foul trouble because other teams game-plan to attack him knowing we have no post depth (and Ware isn't a shot-blocker). Also, with Ray's offense we pass the ball - a lot - in the half court offense. This is also going to limit Ware's touches because we don't have as many possessions. He also sees constant double and triple teams because we don't have consistent outside threats. A better metric to judge him on this would be to see what Ware's averaging in points/playing time. Again, I haven't looked at the numbers, but these are the trends I'd expect to see.

Ware has scored 287 points while playing 711 minutes. So his average ppm is 0.40 for this season. Compare this to last season which was 0.33 ppm

[dawgs]

None of Cohen's track record shit mattered at the time. NONE OF IT. It's the same idiots taking the same stances with the same amount of impatience.

please go find a post of mine on SPS about cohen in year 2. there was a reason i was still optimistic and it was because (1) it's harder to build a roster of 35 guys and (2) cohen had proven to be a top notch coach before he arrived on campus. therefore, i was not one of those "idiots" so please stop saying we were all the same "idiots" that wanted cohen gone in year 2. you are setting up a strawman that's easy for you to knock down.

[dawgs]

No, this is not at all true. There are plenty of SEC schools recruiting at a high level, and they're terrible. It is not all about recruiting unless you're doing so at a UK level. The end of Stans' tenure proved that.

You are right, though...if you wait to build a program, you will get left behind. Just don't ask Tom Crean...or Leonard Hamilton...or Gregg Marshall...or Brad Stevens...or Tony Bennett...or Fran McCaffery...or Mick Cronin...

Yeah, if you don't win year 1, you're toast**

who recruits significantly better than us in the sec and is terrible? usce, bama, and auburn are the only programs that are as bad as we are. usce and auburn haven't exactly been lighting up the recruiting trail in basketball and bama has dead man walking HC. everyone else is at least in the discussion for the CBI tournament and is no worse than 1 game under .500 in the conference. now you can argue that vandy and a&m are terrible too, and they aren't great teams, but if we were 15-12 right now and 7-8 in the sec, you wouldn't see anyone bitching either.

in other words, you are throwing out this blanket statement about other teams recruiting well and being terrible, but the reality is that only 1 team recruiting better than us is anywhere close to as bad as we are and their coach is getting fired over it. the reality is that while the conference isn't great in basketball, the teams that are recruiting better than us are still getting more Ws than us. and we've also played the worse schedule in the conference by over 50 SoS spots.

[Coach34]

The bigger issue is only signing two guys - Ndoye and Ready in 2013. With our roster, that should have never happened. We should have signed 5-7 players. That is on Ray. Problem is that we only have 3 signed for next year, none of which could be remotely considered impact players.
Right now, the biggest problem Ray has is his complete failure in 2013 to sign talent. That was a big time **** up, and one he may not recover from.

explain to me exactly how Ray could have signed 5-7 players last year??? We have a 13 scholly limit cap. Was he supposed to know that Lewis was going to smoke his way out? Was he supposed to know that Steele was going to refuse to play after being cleared medically to play?

You guys just come up with shit but cant seem to follow logic or rules

[engie]

please go find a post of mine on SPS about cohen in year 2. there was a reason i was still optimistic and it was because (1) it's harder to build a roster of 35 guys and (2) cohen had proven to be a top notch coach before he arrived on campus. therefore, i was not one of those "idiots" so please stop saying we were all the same "idiots" that wanted cohen gone in year 2. you are setting up a strawman that's easy for you to knock down.

Did I specifically refer to you in my post? No. The fact that you took it to heart says something about you -- not about me or what I posted. The fact remains, there are multiple posters in this very thread that I can and have destroyed in the Cohen archives yet they never learn from that. There's nothing "straw man" about an argument that I can provide links to backing my position. And I've done it here multiple times already.

[engie]

explain to me exactly how Ray could have signed 5-7 players last year??? We have a 13 scholly limit cap. Was he supposed to know that Lewis was going to smoke his way out? Was he supposed to know that Steele was going to refuse to play after being cleared medically to play?

You guys just come up with shit but cant seem to follow logic or rules

Yep. We signed to the 13 player limit last year. Count 'em, that's:
Bloodman
Ready
Davis
Sword
Thomas
Steele
Johnson
Applewhite
Borchert
Lewis
Ware
Ndoye
Daniels

[dawgs]

Did I specifically refer to you in my post? No. The fact that you took it to heart says something about you -- not about me or what I posted. The fact remains, there are multiple posters in this very thread that I can and have destroyed in the Cohen archives. There's nothing "straw man" about an argument that I can provide links to backing my position.


None of Cohen's track record shit mattered at the time. NONE OF IT. It's the same idiots taking the same stances with the same amount of impatience.

sure didn't sound like you limited it to only 1 or 2 posters there, you are throwing anyone and everyone under the same umbrella. i'm just sick of it being used as a reason to disregard the crowd that's not sold on ray leading our program because the outcry is vastly different, at least from what i remember. i remember a few posters being impatient, but for the most part, people recognized baseball takes longer to build a roster back up and that cohen had a track record of success at kentucky, so he got the benefit of the doubt for any questions people had about his performance.

[Coach34]

Had the NCAA not ****ed N'Doye
Had Daniels made a better grade in a class
Had Lewis had a little more character
Had Steele not been a ****head

We'd have a much better team this year

[engie]

sure didn't sound like you limited it to only 1 or 2 posters there, you are throwing anyone and everyone under the same umbrella. i'm just sick of it being used as a reason to disregard the crowd that's not sold on ray leading our program because the outcry is vastly different, at least from what i remember. i remember a few posters being impatient, but for the most part, people recognized baseball takes longer to build a roster back up and that cohen had a track record of success at kentucky, so he got the benefit of the doubt for any questions people had about his performance.

Who is "sold on Ray leading our program"? There's a big ass difference between being "sold" -- and allowing things to play out logically and let the deck be full before making a rash decision.

A "few" posters? I don't have time to look up JUST the ones I've linked here at the moment. But it was 50% or so on Cohen...

[dawgs]

i hope ray wins, because i love msu sports more than any satisfaction i might get in a few years of internet gloating about how right i was that our basketball programs has continued to suck. i just don't see any signs pointing in the right direction. and he doesn't have the track record for me to blindly believe in him as a coach. sure we work out more and we discipline some players, but we couldn't go anywhere but up from stans last couple of seasons.

[dawgs]

Had the NCAA not ****ed N'Doye
Had Daniels made a better grade in a class
Had Lewis had a little more character
Had Steele not been a ****head

We'd have a much better team this year

at some point we need to ask why we put our eggs in the basket of a big man recruit that we knew was a project and would likely have ncaa clearance issues. and why we bet on a guy we knew was a borderline qualifier at best. and ray needs to be able to sit down and get through to guys like lewis and steele, because getting through to and relating with 18-22 year olds is part of coaching 18-22 year olds. imo lewis wouldn't make a difference this year anyway, most all our losses have been by double digits, and i don't see him making more than a 1 or 2 point difference on a nightly basis because he sucked.

i get that it sucked to have this shit all snowball, but at some point ray is responsible for recruiting guys he knew were going to be question marks and not being able to relate and connect enough with current players to get them to buy in.

[dawgs]

Who is "sold on Ray leading our program"? There's a big ass difference between being "sold" -- and allowing things to play out logically and let the deck be full before making a rash decision.

A "few" posters? I don't have time to look up JUST the ones I've linked here at the moment. But it was 50% or so on Cohen...

i don't remember it being 50/50 at all. there's always going to be some blowhards that blow up and call for heads after every loss, and a bad season really brings them out, but on the whole, the fanbase wasn't ready to get rid of cohen because they believed in him based on his track record and the understanding that 1 or 2 impact players in baseball doesn't significantly turn a program around.

[smootness]

Well lets be fair, the guys you listed their record at their previous job before getting hired was outstanding (Italics):

Tom Crean - Before he got to IU and had a track record that included, a Final Four, and 4 other NCAA tourney appearances in 7 years.

Leonard Hamilton - Winning record at OSU and took Miami to 3 straight NCAA tourneys, then got hired at FSU, and people didn't care about the first few years because he had a proven track record of success.

Gregg Marshall - Winning track record at Wintrhop - Three straight NCAA tourney bids 194-83 record;

Brad Stevens - Umm, he won 30 games his first season at Butler. Not sure how he is on this list. His example doens't help Ray much at all. So on behalf of Rick Ray, please stop helping.

Tony Bennett - a 69-33 record at WSU, 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 3 years, then hired by Virginia an in his 3rd year he won 22 games in the ACC. He went 7-9 in the ACC in his 2nd year.

Fran McCaffery - 112-51 record at Siena. Three straight tourney bids. Had Iowa 8-10 in Big 10 in his second year. 25 wins in year two.

Mick Cronin - 69-24 record at Murray State, two NCAA bids in 3years. Proven track record. Cincy had every reason to give him time.

Im not sure the parallel that you are trying to draw between Ray and these guys you mentioned. Each one had established himself as a great coach before getting a bigger job at a school that was in need of a rebuild. Ray has no such record.

If anything, your post and the coaches you listed, shows the importance of hiring a seasoned coach when you are doing a rebuild.

It didn't take all of those guys 4 years to start winning, but it either took them time to build a program, or they built a program without recruiting lights out. One of those two things applies to each of those coaches.

I'm not sure what their previous track record has to do with using them as examples of guys who built their program in a way that Bogey claimed is impossible. He didn't say, 'college basketball is all about image and recruiting and you can't build a program...unless you've already been successful somewhere'. He is claiming that the only way to be good now in college basketball is to come in and recruit lights out and put studs all over the floor...seems to think that if you have juniors and seniors out there, you won't win. Those coaches all prove that false. That's why I used them.

And I'm glad you used their previous track records. So tell me this...what was Marshall's track record as a HC before Winthrop? Or Cronin's before Murray State? Bennett's before WSU? Stevens' before Butler?

Either you're trying to argue that a coach must already have had great success elsewhere before building a program (which you disproved yourself by showing the success those guys had at their first head job); or you're arguing that coaches like that can't build programs until they get experience at lower-level jobs, which I would completely disagree with. You're telling me Stevens wouldn't have succeeded had we hired him before he was at Butler? Or if we had hired Marshall before he was at Winthrop? Experience can help, but a great coach is a great coach.

[Dawg61]

There are Juco teams that would beat this State team. That's all anyone should need to know considering any JUCO player would give one, maybe both, testicles to play for a SEC program. And our coach had 0.00000 connections to players at other universities that may be looking to transfer? Would you rather play for Directional Poly Tech or a SEC program? Basketball has more attrition than any other sport, yet we can't seem to find a single guy. There are 0.000 JUCO guys who were freshman last year that couldn't have helped us this year? You Ray apologists who are giving him a pass for 8 ****ing scholarship players need to ask yourselves these simple questions. It's not that difficult.

This is the main thing that pisses most of us off. He can't even sell scholarships to able bodies. Had he done this we would have been winning this year. Is he holding into those scollys as a pity crutch? Ask yourself the above questions and it sure looks that way.

+10000000000000000000

You must be butter

[Coach34]

at some point we need to ask why we put our eggs in the basket of a big man recruit that we knew was a project and would likely have ncaa clearance issues. and why we bet on a guy we knew was a borderline qualifier at best. and ray needs to be able to sit down and get through to guys like lewis and steele, because getting through to and relating with 18-22 year olds is part of coaching 18-22 year olds. imo lewis wouldn't make a difference this year anyway, most all our losses have been by double digits, and i don't see him making more than a 1 or 2 point difference on a nightly basis because he sucked.

i get that it sucked to have this shit all snowball, but at some point ray is responsible for recruiting guys he knew were going to be question marks and not being able to relate and connect enough with current players to get them to buy in.

See, it's posts like these that show me how clueless fans really are.

1) Every school in the country that isnt "elite" has to sign borderline players. Hell, Sign and Place has become a way of life in college football. You're dealing with 18-22 year old kids-young adults and its a crapshoot at times. We took a shot with Daniels because he is a solid basketball player. N'Doye played for one of the top programs in the country- and you are complaining about us signing him? Really?

2) Guys like Lewis are the whole reason we hired Ray. to rid our program of the albatrosses that wont comply to program rules. Ray didnt recruit Lewis- he inherited him. Ray made damn clear what the program rules were and after tossing Zedakis and Smith- you'd think it would dawn on Lewis that Ray meant business. Some people you just cant reach. When you change the culture of the program- you have casualties like this that hurt the immediate future. And there is nothing you can do about it.

3) It's beyond stupid to say that 2 guys- that would have been 2 of your best 5 players- would make the difference in 4-5 wins. 8-10 points in basketball is nothing these days. 8 points is 3 trips down the floor. You dont see how our team struggles on D when we have to play Roq at the 5???? That would never happen if we had Lewis. You watched Borchert play defense? He wouldnt play as much if we had Lewis. Steele can shoot the basketball. You dont think he would open the paint up a little more for Ware and Sword? Seriously?

Those two guys are easily the difference in 4-5 wins.

Ray is responsible starting April 1st- the two year rebuild is over and its time to start progressing. Two recruiting classes is enough time to fill the huge hole he was left with. We'll see how it goes next year

[mic]

Been a lurker on this board since it was created, but the constant bashing and unknowledgeable dismissal of Rick Ray as a basketball coach and leader of our program has driven me to write this post.

First off, I attended State from 07-11, so I witnessed the decline of the Stans era, but also old enough to remember when he was a great coach for our program. Key word: WAS, couldn't agree more with the decision by our athletic administration to let him go. People will point to Renardo Sidney as the downfall of Stansbury, but what also needs to be said is Stansbury had every chance to cut him loose... & didn't. Sidney was definitely a cancer to our basketball team, but no bigger than how Stansbury ran the program. Constant attrition (Walter Sharpe, Phil Turner, Romero Osby, Twany Beckham, Delk twins, Ben Hansborough, Elgin Bailey.. need I continue?), all the while keeping kids on our team with terrible attitudes & lazy work ethic on & off the court (Sidney, Kodi Augustus, & Ravern Johnson). These decisions & not holding players accountable was the writing on the wall for Stansbury & our basketball program during the last few seasons. Our fans, myself included, ignored all these signs (mainly because we were highly talented & competitive) until eventually the bottom fell out in 2012.

In stepped Rick Ray to clean up our broken & cancerous basketball program. One that was in decline for the last 5 seasons. Sure, we had our bright spots during the last few seasons under Stansbury, but a team will win games when you arguably have a top 3 roster in the SEC talent-wise. Talent wins you games in basketball, on the collegiate & professional level. We are learning that the hard way under Ray right now.

Our roster is currently the worst in the SEC, and you can't argue with that. Zero depth & we are playing kids that would be solid church-league players. Seriously. This is not a bash on our players post because they play hard, but right now we only have 3 quality players on the entire roster(Sword, Ready, Ware). The casual, lazy basketball fan will point at Ray for not recruiting his first two seasons. That is not the case at all. Stansbury created a culture that had a high attrition rate & didn't hold players accountable, which in turn led to a complete deterioration of our roster. Deville Smith, Wendell Lewis, Shaun Smith, Jalen Steele, Rodney Hood, Kristers Zeidaks are players that could be on our team today that have either transferred or have been kicked off the team for disciplinary reasons because they were never taught discipline or were held accountable for their actions in the Stansbury era from day 1. Throw in Travis Daniels sitting out this season & the NCAA screwing us with the Fallou Ndoye situation and this is the craptastic roster we have. I do not blame Rick Ray for any of this.

Stansbury did a lot of great things for our program, including setting high expectations which in turn has led to many of our fans ripping Ray. I'm not telling you Rick Ray is the next coach K, but I do believe we should hold judgement until he can actually field a team with a full roster. Again, it cannot be said enough, WE HAVE THE WORST ROSTER IN THE SEC! And remarkably, we lost to Kentucky and Florida(#1 team in the country) by ten points. Think about that for a minute. I believe dismissing Ray as head coach is lazy, and you do not understand what this program has been through the last few seasons. Like Bart Hyche said in his letter, we have some actual coaching going on at practice, for the first time in awhile. Our current coach is still trying to dig out of the hole our previous coach left behind. All Ray needs is time and a few more talented bodies.

Hail Damn State

Is it possible to give an award for greatest first post In the History of Elite Dawgs.???
Dude gets my vote....

[dawgs]

If his clock starts 4/1, my 1st expectation is to be in the discussion for Newman. He's a program changer, he's from <2 hrs from campus, and his dad was a star for us. If we can't even get in the discussion, then we have no hope of recruiting at a reasonable level. If it's not ray's fault and Strickland is making the recruiting decisions, then we as a fanbase need to speak up. Maybe it's not ray's fault he can't show the "love", but how long do we keep giving him that excuse?

[smootness]

If his clock starts 4/1, my 1st expectation is to be in the discussion for Newman. He's a program changer, he's from <2 hrs from campus, and his dad was a star for us. If we can't even get in the discussion, then we have no hope of recruiting at a reasonable level. If it's not ray's fault and Strickland is making the recruiting decisions, then we as a fanbase need to speak up. Maybe it's not ray's fault he can't show the "love", but how long do we keep giving him that excuse?

We're already in the discussion.

[dawgs]

We're already in the discussion.

not according to C34, we aren't showing enough "love". and by discussion i mean we are a real contender for his signature until he makes a final decision, not an afterthought 8th down his list but not officially eliminated.

[smootness]

not according to C34, we aren't showing enough "love". and by discussion i mean we are a real contender for his signature until he makes a final decision, not an afterthought 8th down his list but not officially eliminated.

We are not an afterthought. People think Kentucky has the lead, but we have at least as good a chance as anyone who isn't UK.

[Coach34]

If his clock starts 4/1, my 1st expectation is to be in the discussion for Newman. He's a program changer, he's from <2 hrs from campus, and his dad was a star for us. If we can't even get in the discussion, then we have no hope of recruiting at a reasonable level. If it's not ray's fault and Strickland is making the recruiting decisions, then we as a fanbase need to speak up. Maybe it's not ray's fault he can't show the "love", but how long do we keep giving him that excuse?

What do you mean how long do we "keep" giving him that excuse? He's had 1 recruiting class. Once his 3rd recruiting class takes the floor- we'll see where we are and make the decision then. It's not hard- the guy gets 4 years to see what he can do.

[Coach34]

We are not an afterthought. People think Kentucky has the lead, but we have at least as good a chance as anyone who isn't UK.

We're not in it as of a week ago- and this comes from people close to the situation. Now you will hear from people that we are in it and Ray has worked his ass off recruiting Newman- and he has. But we arent really "in it". There's only 1 way to get in it

[Brad Stevens]

Well lets be fair, the guys you listed their record at their previous job before getting hired was outstanding (Italics):

Tom Crean - Before he got to IU and had a track record that included, a Final Four, and 4 other NCAA tourney appearances in 7 years.

Leonard Hamilton - Winning record at OSU and took Miami to 3 straight NCAA tourneys, then got hired at FSU, and people didn't care about the first few years because he had a proven track record of success.

Gregg Marshall - Winning track record at Wintrhop - Three straight NCAA tourney bids 194-83 record;

Brad Stevens - Umm, he won 30 games his first season at Butler. Not sure how he is on this list. His example doens't help Ray much at all. So on behalf of Rick Ray, please stop helping.

Tony Bennett - a 69-33 record at WSU, 2 NCAA tourney appearances in 3 years, then hired by Virginia an in his 3rd year he won 22 games in the ACC. He went 7-9 in the ACC in his 2nd year.

Fran McCaffery - 112-51 record at Siena. Three straight tourney bids. Had Iowa 8-10 in Big 10 in his second year. 25 wins in year two.

Mick Cronin - 69-24 record at Murray State, two NCAA bids in 3years. Proven track record. Cincy had every reason to give him time.

Im not sure the parallel that you are trying to draw between Ray and these guys you mentioned. Each one had established himself as a great coach before getting a bigger job at a school that was in need of a rebuild. Ray has no such record.

If anything, your post and the coaches you listed, shows the importance of hiring a seasoned coach when you are doing a rebuild.


We can all agree Rick Ray is no Brad Stevens **

[HancockCountyDog]

And I'm glad you used their previous track records. So tell me this...what was Marshall's track record as a HC before Winthrop? Or Cronin's before Murray State? Bennett's before WSU? Stevens' before Butler?

Either you're trying to argue that a coach must already have had great success elsewhere before building a program (which you disproved yourself by showing the success those guys had at their first head job); or you're arguing that coaches like that can't build programs until they get experience at lower-level jobs, which I would completely disagree with. You're telling me Stevens wouldn't have succeeded had we hired him before he was at Butler? Or if we had hired Marshall before he was at Winthrop? Experience can help, but a great coach is a great coach.

Im not sure I understand - their records at their other jobs was extremely good, right off the bat for most of the coaches. Cronin won in his first year at Murray State.

My point was that to be considered a good coach, you need to win somewhere first, to earn the right to be given the benefit of the doubt when building a program. Ray hasn't done that. The coaches you named all did. You have to earn the right for fans to trust that you know what the **** you are doing, in the middle of a 10 game losing streak in one of the worst conferences of basketball in the country. The coaches you named all struggled at their new school (except Stevens who apparently is a freak of a coach) and their schools and fan bases stuck with them because they knew that this coach had done it before.

Crean did recruit at an elite level at IU though, he had the number rated class in the country with Zeller and company, but that is besides the point.

All of this angst about Ray is due to the fact that no one knows if he actually knows what the **** he is doing. That is the whole point. We are the guinea pig. Maybe he turns it around, but maybe he doesn't. We certainly don't know if he can, because he has never done it anywhere else. In fact, Im not sure he has ever been an actual Head Basketball coach on any level. According to wiki he was a basketball coach in HS before becoming an assistant coach on several schools.

At the end of the day this is the first time he has been a head basketball coach. We have no idea if he will be successful.

[dawgs]

What do you mean how long do we "keep" giving him that excuse? He's had 1 recruiting class. Once his 3rd recruiting class takes the floor- we'll see where we are and make the decision then. It's not hard- the guy gets 4 years to see what he can do.

the excuse that whenever he doesn't land a difference making recruit, it's because strickland won't let us show any "love". our class coming in next year sucks. it's subpar. we are ranked 70something on 247. the other sites don't even rank that low. and our avg player is only 84something, so it's not even a case of quality over quantity (we need both fwiw). so what's your reason for it sucking? ray can't recruit? or strickland won't let him recruit?

last year's class ranked 83rd and that included both ndoye and daniels. you talk about both of them above like they are difference makers we couldn't afford to not take a chance on, but the reality is that ndoye is barely a 3* recruit and considered a long term project, i don't care what HS he went to and daniels was unranked by both 274 and rivals and a 3* on scout. and the only other offers i can find on daniels were western ky and usm. these are replaceable level guys. if we are going to take chances on players rated this low, they need to be slam dunk qualifiers. it's one thing to gamble on a sidney level talent, it's another to gamble on low 3* project players.

[Coach34]

the excuse that whenever he doesn't land a difference making recruit, it's because strickland won't let us show any "love". our class coming in next year sucks. it's subpar. we are ranked 70something on 247. the other sites don't even rank that low. and our avg player is only 84something, so it's not even a case of quality over quantity (we need both fwiw). so what's your reason for it sucking? ray can't recruit? or strickland won't let him recruit?

We dont know if his recruiting sux or not- only Ready has taken the floor. Once we see Daniels, N'Doye, Houston, Black, etc- we'll know alot more. Judging him on throw-ins he found in April after being hired is ridiculous. Leftovers arent a fair way to judge anyone.

[dawgs]

We dont know if his recruiting sux or not- only Ready has taken the floor. Once we see Daniels, N'Doye, Houston, Black, etc- we'll know alot more. Judging him on throw-ins he found in April after being hired is ridiculous. Leftovers arent a fair way to judge anyone.

he better be the best ****ing talent evaluator in the country if you're expecting any or all these guys to be average contributors in the sec, because no one else thinks they are anything more than mediocre mid major level talent.

[Coach34]

he better be the best ****ing talent evaluator in the country if you're expecting any or all these guys to be average contributors in the sec, because no one else thinks they are anything more than mediocre mid major level talent.

Daniels performed better in juco than the highly rated Pollard- and he cant be worse on D than Borchert. N'Doye is getting a year to develop so he can give us some mins next year. Houston is going to be a player. We get 4-star Staley for SEC play.

We will be okkkkkk

[MabenMaroon]

See, it's posts like these that show me how clueless fans really are.

1) Every school in the country that isnt "elite" has to sign borderline players. Hell, Sign and Place has become a way of life in college football. You're dealing with 18-22 year old kids-young adults and its a crapshoot at times. We took a shot with Daniels because he is a solid basketball player. N'Doye played for one of the top programs in the country- and you are complaining about us signing him? Really?

2) Guys like Lewis are the whole reason we hired Ray. to rid our program of the albatrosses that wont comply to program rules. Ray didnt recruit Lewis- he inherited him. Ray made damn clear what the program rules were and after tossing Zedakis and Smith- you'd think it would dawn on Lewis that Ray meant business. Some people you just cant reach. When you change the culture of the program- you have casualties like this that hurt the immediate future. And there is nothing you can do about it.

3) It's beyond stupid to say that 2 guys- that would have been 2 of your best 5 players- would make the difference in 4-5 wins. 8-10 points in basketball is nothing these days. 8 points is 3 trips down the floor. You dont see how our team struggles on D when we have to play Roq at the 5???? That would never happen if we had Lewis. You watched Borchert play defense? He wouldnt play as much if we had Lewis. Steele can shoot the basketball. You dont think he would open the paint up a little more for Ware and Sword? Seriously?

Those two guys are easily the difference in 4-5 wins.

Ray is responsible starting April 1st- the two year rebuild is over and its time to start progressing. Two recruiting classes is enough time to fill the huge hole he was left with. We'll see how it goes next year

If I am not mistaken, Travis Daniels was recruited fairly hard by Wichita State, seeing where they are now, that would be a decent endorsement from a program that has been pretty successful as of late. I have been watching them a bit more of late and am fairly impressed in their team play.

[engie]

If I am not mistaken, Travis Daniels was recruited fairly hard by Wichita State, seeing where they are now, that would be a decent endorsement from a program that has been pretty successful as of late. I have been watching them a bit more of late and am fairly impressed in their team play.

Yeah -- but this is conveniently ignored by the "Ray can't recruit" crowd that haven't, in reality, even given him a chance yet.

[ScottH]

We get 4-star Staley for SEC play.


There is a school of thought that he may end up our most important basketball "signee" this year.

[Dawg61]

There is a school of thought that he may end up our most important basketball "signee" this year.

Won't matter for me. No way Ray starts game 1 of 14-15 with 13 scholarship players.

[dawgs]

Yeah -- but this is conveniently ignored by the "Ray can't recruit" crowd that haven't, in reality, even given him a chance yet.

From what I could find on Daniels, I didn't see anything about a Wichita st offer.

[dawgs]

Daniels performed better in juco than the highly rated Pollard- and he cant be worse on D than Borchert. N'Doye is getting a year to develop so he can give us some mins next year. Houston is going to be a player. We get 4-star Staley for SEC play.

We will be okkkkkk

Performed better or put up better stats? They also play different positions. And at completely different schools and with probably different styles and different talent levels around them. Just looking at the numbers doesn't tell nearly the whole story.

[Dawgface]

Is it possible to give an award for greatest first post In the History of Elite Dawgs.???
Dude gets my vote....
He now has two votes.

[Vandownbytheriver]

It's not stupidity to expect the team to always play with effort and have basic fundamentals. We look like we never practice rebounding or shooting free throws. Maybe it is genuinely a talent problem, but at times we look completely lost. I also expect the same effort in every game and that simply isn't the case with this team. I don't think he should be fired, but if we are not at least an NIT team next, he needs to go. Basketball should never take 4 years to completely rebuild your team into an NIT level team. I know he's changing the culture of the program and all that jazz, but if the elite players are a part of that culture and it's what's required to get them here, don't go full on Stans, but get some talent. The same folks who want patience for Ray are the same ones who want Mullen to play the game just like other SEC coaches to get kids to sign.

[thf24]

The most asinine thing about the whole issue to me is that some of you actually seem to believe that Ray should have recruited significantly better so far. It pains me to acknowledge that this level of stupidity exists in our fan base, but I've seen several people point to Calipari's first year at Kentucky as evidence that Ray should already be recruiting well. A first time, previously unknown head coach taking on a toxic program isn't going to recruit well his first few years, period. Ray was always going to have to win first before the recruiting picked up. That's a severely uphill battle, no doubt about it, and Ray may very well not rise to the challenge in the end, but to judge his recruiting right now isn't even giving him a chance.

[dawgs]

The most asinine thing about the whole issue to me is that some of you actually seem to believe that Ray should have recruited significantly better so far. It pains me to acknowledge that this level of stupidity exists in our fan base, but I've seen several people point to Calipari's first year at Kentucky as evidence that Ray should already be recruiting well. A first time, previously unknown head coach taking on a toxic program isn't going to recruit well his first few years, period. Ray was always going to have to win first before the recruiting picked up. That's a severely uphill battle, no doubt about it, and Ray may very well not rise to the challenge in the end, but to judge his recruiting right now isn't even giving him a chance.

he has the chance to recruit better - i'm not saying fire him now, unless we had someone like pearl on the line ready to take the job. but it's fair to question his recruiting when it's been so bad. i'm not expecting a top 10 or even 25 class, but is a top 50 class with a majority of the class eligible to play immediately if needed really too much to ask for? i mean to set the bar down in the 70s and 80s is setting it really ****ing low, and that's where we are sitting in MBB last year and this year. i'll give ray a pass on that 1st class.

[engie]

he has the chance to recruit better - i'm not saying fire him now, unless we had someone like pearl on the line ready to take the job. but it's fair to question his recruiting when it's been so bad. i'm not expecting a top 10 or even 25 class, but is a top 50 class with a majority of the class eligible to play immediately if needed really too much to ask for? i mean to set the bar down in the 70s and 80s is setting it really ****ing low, and that's where we are sitting in MBB last year and this year. i'll give ray a pass on that 1st class.

Do you not realize how ridiculously dumb and "inaccurate" the 24/7 method is for judging basketball talent? It GREATLY rewards teams for more signees and thusly punishes them for fewer signees. Also, you REALLY trust THOSE guys to be able to judge basketball talent? The same ones that had Pollard as a 5* and Gardner as a 4* -- while having Summers as a low 3*? Refresh my memory -- what did they have Isaiah Canaan rated as?

Basketball recruiting by rankings is AT LEAST quadruple the shitshoot that football recruiting is. But your mind is made up that JC Shurburtt has a better eye for basketball talent that Ray -- so there is no changing it.

[Vandownbytheriver]

Do you not realize how ridiculously dumb and "inaccurate" the 24/7 method is for judging basketball talent? It GREATLY rewards teams for more signees and thusly punishes them for fewer signees. Also, you REALLY trust THOSE guys to be able to judge basketball talent? The same ones that had Pollard as a 5* and Gardner as a 4* -- while having Summers as a low 3*?

Basketball recruiting by rankings is AT LEAST quadruple the shitshoot that football recruiting is. But your mind is made up that JC Shurburtt has a better eye for basketball talent that Ray -- so there is no changing your mind.
This all damn day. Recruiting guys are far from the experts they would leave you to believe. And that whole network is made up of self important twats. The only one that is even remotely bearable is Paul.

[engie]

From what I could find on Daniels, I didn't see anything about a Wichita st offer.

If you can't see anything about his Wichita St offer and pursuit -- you are simply trying hard not to see it. You obviously didn't bother looking at the same site that you got your basketball "rankings" from. So, obviously, you are putting ALL of your trust in a website that can't even accurately reflect basketball offers...
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20140228-282y-65kb.jpg
http://my.jetscreenshot.com/12222/m_20140228-lrkm-52kb.jpg

[dawgs]

Do you not realize how ridiculously dumb and "inaccurate" the 24/7 method is for judging basketball talent? It GREATLY rewards teams for more signees and thusly punishes them for fewer signees. Also, you REALLY trust THOSE guys to be able to judge basketball talent? The same ones that had Pollard as a 5* and Gardner as a 4* -- while having Summers as a low 3*? Refresh my memory -- what did they have Isaiah Canaan rated as?

Basketball recruiting by rankings is AT LEAST quadruple the shitshoot that football recruiting is. But your mind is made up that JC Shurburtt has a better eye for basketball talent that Ray -- so there is no changing it.

i'd say basketball recruiting is far less a "shitshoot" than football recruiting.

and 247's ranking method gives diminishing returns for each additional signing. yeah signing a few more guys helps, but each new guy you sign counts less and less towards the total points. either ****ing way, our avg star rating last year was in the low 80s. this year, it's 84.something. that's not getting it done. stop trying to polish a turd.

[dawgs]

for whatever reason i didn't see it on 247 and scout only listed wku and usm. sorry. that said, i'd still hope we are recruiting a better talent level than wichita st, because gregg marshall has PROVEN he can take mediocre talent and turn it into an very good team. there are some guys out there than can do this, but 99% of them fail miserably in turning shitty talent into a very good team. rick ray hasn't given me any reason to believe he's the 2nd of marshall. and i prefer to see evidence before i "believe" in ray. when he shows me he can take a bunch of low 3* and unranked guys and turn them into a tourney team, i'll relax and trust his recruiting - much like i don't stroke out when mullen goes after an undervalued MS guy, because he's proven he can find value in those guys and turn them into solid sec caliber players in a couple of years. until then a fan has every right to be worried because when we look around at comparable situations and coaches, the outcomes generally aren't very good. sorry i like to look at actual evidence and look for the direction it's like leading us.

[engie]

i'd say basketball recruiting is far less a "shitshoot" than football recruiting.
Then you need not say anything else. Your lack of understanding of basketball recruiting is clearly evident.


and 247's ranking method gives diminishing returns for each additional signing. yeah signing a few more guys helps, but each new guy you sign counts less and less towards the total points. [
Yeah -- that works great for football where there is 20+ signees. In basketball, it doesn't work for shit. But your mind is made up to believe the foolishness, so I'm just going to walk away from it.


either ****ing way, our avg star rating last year was in the low 80s. this year, it's 84.something. that's not getting it done. stop trying to polish a turd.
The 2014 class is ranked 73rd. It'll go to top 60 with Troutman.
The CURRENT class is ranked 12th.

One misevaluated basketball player = the difference in 25-40 spots in a given "class". How many are misevaluated? I'd say damn near every single one of them outside of the top 100.

Otherwise, I'm still waiting on explanations of why Bama, Tennessee, Arky, Mizzou, LSU, Vandy all suck with consistent top 25 recruiting -- while Wichita St, Creighton, Iowa St, UMass, New Mexico, St Louis, San Diego St, VCU, Colorado, Gonzaga, George Washington, St. Joseph, BYU, Southern Miss all find themselves ranked higher than EVERY SEC team sans UK and Florida... How many 5*s do those teams have combined? How many 4*s? How do you, then, explain their winning without them winning 'crootin championships every year? I mean -- after all -- you did just say that basketball recruiting is way more exact a science than football. So, what gives? How many similar teams are ahead of the majority of the "top 25 recruiting SEC" in football? Yeah -- that little theory doesn't quite fit does it.

[engie]

d because when we look around at comparable situations and coaches, the outcomes generally aren't very good. sorry i like to look at actual evidence and look for the direction it's like leading us.

Who is a coach who inherited a similar circumstance that had ANY MORE immediate success?

[Coach34]

Who is a coach who inherited a similar circumstance that had ANY MORE immediate success?

That's what I want to know. What situation where a coach came in with losing all 5 starters and then losing 4 more to season ending injuries, plus having to kick 2 off the team for drugs? I want to know where another coach had immediate success in that situation

[dawgs]

That's what I want to know. What situation where a coach came in with losing all 5 starters and then losing 4 more to season ending injuries, plus having to kick 2 off the team for drugs? I want to know where another coach had immediate success in that situation

GODDAMMIT it's not that there are others that had more immediate success, it's that there are others that had PREVIOUS success that gives the fanbase a reason to TRUST their ability to build a program, and many of those others were also clearly recruiting at a level to win in a major conference, it was a matter of getting the players on the court and fitting them together. but yall can't grasp how anyone could feel that way. if tom crean with his final 4 at his previous stop takes a few years to get going, i trust he's more likely to get there because he gives me a reason to have faith in him. rick ray doesn't give me any reason to believe in him. none. he talks a good game, that's about all we have to go on at this point.

i guess it all goes back to what a disastrous and embarrassing job strickland did with the coaching search. it's ****ing terrible that we couldn't even hire valpo's coach when we could easily triple or quadruple his salary. i don't care how bad the situation was, if you can triple or quadruple your salary and the AD gives you 4 years to clean it up, somebody on our end ****ed things up.

[dawgs]

Then you need not say anything else. Your lack of understanding of basketball recruiting is clearly evident.


Yeah -- that works great for football where there is 20+ signees. In basketball, it doesn't work for shit. But your mind is made up to believe the foolishness, so I'm just going to walk away from it.


The 2014 class is ranked 73rd. It'll go to top 60 with Troutman.
The CURRENT class is ranked 12th.

One misevaluated basketball player = the difference in 25-40 spots in a given "class". How many are misevaluated? I'd say damn near every single one of them outside of the top 100.

Otherwise, I'm still waiting on explanations of why Bama, Tennessee, Arky, Mizzou, LSU, Vandy all suck with consistent top 25 recruiting -- while Wichita St, Creighton, Iowa St, UMass, New Mexico, St Louis, San Diego St, VCU, Colorado, Gonzaga, George Washington, St. Joseph, BYU, Southern Miss all find themselves ranked higher than EVERY SEC team sans UK and Florida... How many 5*s do those teams have combined? How many 4*s? How do you, then, explain their winning without them winning 'crootin championships every year? I mean -- after all -- you did just say that basketball recruiting is way more exact a science than football. So, what gives? How many similar teams are ahead of the majority of the "top 25 recruiting SEC" in football? Yeah -- that little theory doesn't quite fit does it.

no one would be complaining if we were performing at the level of tenn, arky, mizzou, lsu, or vandy right now. they are damn national championship material compared to what we are right now. bama does suck and their coach is about to be FIRED because of it (they still kicked the shit out of us though). sometimes shit happens and that's when coaches get fired.

as for the "science" of basketball recruiting:
http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart-the-best-nba-players-left-off-the-rivals-150-p-1463989002

there's some good players on that list, but consider the sheer number of equivalent or better players in the NBA to those guys and all the rest of them were top 150 recruits. so don't give me this shit about basketball recruiting being a crapshoot, because on the whole, it's not. sure there's busts and there's late bloomers, but if given the option of 5 top 150 guys and 5 non-top 150 guys, i'll take my odds with the 5 top 150 guys everyday because the odds of them being an NBA caliber talent (and thus a pretty damn good MBB player) are far far higher.

[thedawg]

I disagree... the situation was so bad money wasnt enough for the effort and risk involved in taking it over... If we hired Valpos coach he would be having similar results as Ray right now and yall would all be bitching about him... Its easy to turn into a dumbass in a hurry in the coaching profession if you take the wrong job... money be damned

[Coach34]

I disagree... the situation was so bad money wasnt enough for the effort and risk involved in taking it over

exactly- we found this out the hard way during the hiring process

[engie]

no one would be complaining if we were performing at the level of tenn, arky, mizzou, lsu, or vandy right now. they are damn national championship material compared to what we are right now. bama does suck and their coach is about to be FIRED because of it (they still kicked the shit out of us though). sometimes shit happens and that's when coaches get fired.

as for the "science" of basketball recruiting:
http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart-the-best-nba-players-left-off-the-rivals-150-p-1463989002

there's some good players on that list, but consider the sheer number of equivalent or better players in the NBA to those guys and all the rest of them were top 150 recruits. so don't give me this shit about basketball recruiting being a crapshoot, because on the whole, it's not. sure there's busts and there's late bloomers, but if given the option of 5 top 150 guys and 5 non-top 150 guys, i'll take my odds with the 5 top 150 guys everyday because the odds of them being an NBA caliber talent (and thus a pretty damn good MBB player) are far far higher.

Genius. Pure genius.

So, thanks for proving my point. Outside of the top 100-150 players in the country, basketball recruiting a total and complete misevaluated crapshoot. And LOL at you thinking that article "proved" anything...

How many 4*s and 5*s did Stansbury roll through here? How many of them have made a career playing in the NBA? Bad example is horrid.

[dawgs]

Genius. Pure genius.

So, thanks for proving my point. Outside of the top 100-150 players in the country, basketball recruiting a total and complete misevaluated crapshoot. And LOL at you thinking that article proved anything...

How many 4*s and 5*s did Stansbury roll through here? How many of them have made a career playing in the NBA? Bad example is horrid.

how many teams of a bunch of low 3* recruits and lower rated guys have gone on to be very good teams in major conference basketball? bad example is horrid.

all the teams you list earlier that are playing well with less talent are in mid major conferences. but even still, for each high end mid major conference team, there's many more that are shitty like you'd expect based on their talent level.

[engie]

how many teams of a bunch of low 3* recruits and lower rated guys have gone on to be very good teams in major conference basketball? bad example is horrid.
Let's just go by the Sweet 16 shall we.
2013 - Oregon, Florida Gulf Coast, Wichita St, La Salle,
2012 - Xavier, Ohio, NC State(at that point in time)
2011 - San Diego St, Richmond, VCU, Butler, BYU
2010 - Northern Iowa, Butler, Xavier, Cornell, Washington, St. Mary's
Need I keep going?
"Bad example is horrid" -- Lulz

The problem with what you are asking me to do here is that you see Big 6 names that made a Sweet 16 and then go "well, they recruit elite talent!!1!1". Of course they do. After they went deep in March.

[Coach34]

Jesus somebody tell the ref to stop this....Engie may give him permanent dain bramage

[RougeDawg]

+10000000000000000000

You must be butter

I noticed the Ray apologists have steered clear of addressing my points on the issue.

[dawgs]

Let's just go by the Sweet 16 shall we.
2013 - Oregon, Florida Gulf Coast, Wichita St, La Salle,
2012 - Xavier, Ohio, NC State(at that point in time)
2011 - San Diego St, Richmond, VCU, Butler, BYU
2010 - Northern Iowa, Butler, Xavier, Cornell, Washington, St. Mary's
Need I keep going?
"Bad example is horrid" -- Lulz

The problem with what you are asking me to do here is that you see Big 6 names that made a Sweet 16 and then go "well, they recruit elite talent!!1!1". Of course they do. After they went deep in March.

a tourney run =/= a full season in major conf basketball. favorable one off matchups can lead to some interesting outcomes.

also, should be consider the literally hundreds of teams that didn't make sweet 16 runs that recruit on a low 3* and lower level? you point out a couple of exceptions and ignore the overwhelming rule, which is that talent matters a lot.

as for the specific teams:
2013: oregon is coached by dana allman, a very good, proven HC and wichita st is coached by marshall, a very good and proven HC
2012: xavier's HC was coming off a sweet 16 in 2010 and 2nd round appearance in 2011 and was promoted from a successful staff from within the program and had been the primary assistant on 4 straight tourney appearances including another sweet 16 and an elite 8 (so to compare that to ray, he was an assitant at a MUCH better program that had good success while he was one staff AND he was very very knowledgeable with xavier and their recruiting base and how to handle the program)
2011: sdsu - steve fisher, vcu - shaka smart, butler - brad stevens
2010 - butler - brad stevens, xavier - see above, washington - lorenzo romar in his 3rd straight tourney appearance

in other words, almost every single one of those you listed are coached by coaches that have a history of success prior to the sweet 16 run OR were promoted from within the program after the HC left after a run of success.

rick ray fits neither of those examples. hence why i am concerned he's more like the hundreds of basketball coaches that fail with mediocre or worse talent than the handful that actually succeed with it.

[Brad Stevens]

I noticed the Ray apologists have steered clear of addressing my points on the issue.

I am no Ray apologist, but I do believe he deserves at least one year with a full roster before we take the guy to the gallows. It is difficult to answer your points because you are asking someone to answer the motivations and thoughts behind a man that is not me. We are not all-knowing or all-powerful, so I'm not exactly sure why he is holding on to some scholarships. I would guess one reason may be he thinks he can bring in better players in the next class. Maybe he didn't know Lewis and Steele would be gone, and that Applewhite would transfer mid season. Maybe he didn't know Ndoye wouldn't qualify. We can make assumptions all day, but it's impossible for us to truly know what another man is thinking with his tactics. I, for one, at least have the patience to give him a full season with a full bench (and returning 7 of top 8 guys next year). Is it too much to ask for patience?

[engie]

What "scholarship" is he holding onto?

We've got 12 for next year as of right now -- and are probably about to offer Troutman the 13th...

[engie]

a tourney run =/= a full season in major conf basketball. favorable one off matchups can lead to some interesting outcomes.

also, should be consider the literally hundreds of teams that didn't make sweet 16 runs that recruit on a low 3* and lower level? you point out a couple of exceptions and ignore the overwhelming rule, which is that talent matters a lot.

as for the specific teams:
2013: oregon is coached by dana allman, a very good, proven HC and wichita st is coached by marshall, a very good and proven HC
2012: xavier's HC was coming off a sweet 16 in 2010 and 2nd round appearance in 2011 and was promoted from a successful staff from within the program and had been the primary assistant on 4 straight tourney appearances including another sweet 16 and an elite 8 (so to compare that to ray, he was an assitant at a MUCH better program that had good success while he was one staff AND he was very very knowledgeable with xavier and their recruiting base and how to handle the program)
2011: sdsu - steve fisher, vcu - shaka smart, butler - brad stevens
2010 - butler - brad stevens, xavier - see above, washington - lorenzo romar in his 3rd straight tourney appearance

in other words, almost every single one of those you listed are coached by coaches that have a history of success prior to the sweet 16 run OR were promoted from within the program after the HC left after a run of success.

rick ray fits neither of those examples. hence why i am concerned he's more like the hundreds of basketball coaches that fail with mediocre or worse talent than the handful that actually succeed with it.

Ah -- so you want to cook the books down in such a way that Ray has no one to compare to. Got it**

What you actually asked was "who won big with 3* players?" You didn't ask "who won big with 3* players -- as a first time, unproven head coach?"

You should answer your own questions from now on -- since you will move the goal posts with every answer that successfully fills your parameters.

[smootness]

GODDAMMIT it's not that there are others that had more immediate success, it's that there are others that had PREVIOUS success that gives the fanbase a reason to TRUST their ability to build a program, and many of those others were also clearly recruiting at a level to win in a major conference, it was a matter of getting the players on the court and fitting them together. but yall can't grasp how anyone could feel that way. if tom crean with his final 4 at his previous stop takes a few years to get going, i trust he's more likely to get there because he gives me a reason to have faith in him. rick ray doesn't give me any reason to believe in him. none. he talks a good game, that's about all we have to go on at this point.

i guess it all goes back to what a disastrous and embarrassing job strickland did with the coaching search. it's ****ing terrible that we couldn't even hire valpo's coach when we could easily triple or quadruple his salary. i don't care how bad the situation was, if you can triple or quadruple your salary and the AD gives you 4 years to clean it up, somebody on our end ****ed things up.

Why do people keep using this argument? That is an argument for, 'This is why our fanbase doesn't trust him yet' (and still not a great one considering that people would still be jumping down his throat even if he was already proven, i.e. Cohen)...but it is not an argument for, 'He won't be successful'.

Yes, you can make an argument that other coaches were given time because they were already proven. But you can't make the argument that they ultimately had success because they were already proven. They had success because they were good coaches. So maybe, instead of cutting him loose before there's any way of knowing whether he is a good coach or not, we should follow the example of those programs and wait it out. You're actually arguing our point for us, against those calling for Ray to go.

If you give a good coach time, they can turn things around. We don't yet know if Ray is a good enough coach yet. He may be, he may not be. Why would we not give him time to find out?

[dawgs]

Why do people keep using this argument? That is an argument for, 'This is why our fanbase doesn't trust him yet' (and still not a great one considering that people would still be jumping down his throat even if he was already proven, i.e. Cohen)...but it is not an argument for, 'He won't be successful'.

Yes, you can make an argument that other coaches were given time because they were already proven. But you can't make the argument that they ultimately had success because they were already proven. They had success because they were good coaches. So maybe, instead of cutting him loose before there's any way of knowing whether he is a good coach or not, we should follow the example of those programs and wait it out. You're actually arguing our point for us, against those calling for Ray to go.

If you give a good coach time, they can turn things around. We don't yet know if Ray is a good enough coach yet. He may be, he may not be. Why would we not give him time to find out?

when a coach is successful at a first stop, he has a better chance of being successful at the next stop than a 1st time coach would at the same stop. maybe it's because you know he's at least a solid coach if he's won at a first stop, or maybe it's because he's been able to already learn on the job and he's better prepared for the 2nd job. regardless, the wash out rates of 1st time HCs is much higher than successful HCs taking a new job.

[engie]

regardless, the wash out rates of 1st time HCs is much higher than successful HCs taking a new job.

Link?

[smootness]

when a coach is successful at a first stop, he has a better chance of being successful at the next stop than a 1st time coach would at the same stop. maybe it's because you know he's at least a solid coach if he's won at a first stop, or maybe it's because he's been able to already learn on the job and he's better prepared for the 2nd job. regardless, the wash out rates of 1st time HCs is much higher than successful HCs taking a new job.

Then let's go back to how each of these guys performed at their first stops...you used Marshall's success at Winthrop, Cronin's success at Murray State, etc. to show why they had a better chance of succeeding at their second job...but those were their first jobs. So you're using their success at their first stop to prove that it's easier to succeed at a 2nd job if you have already succeeded at your 1st...which doesn't really make logical sense.

Was it easier for Cronin to succeed at Cincinnati than it was for him to succeed at Murray State? Or is he just a good coach who is going to succeed wherever he is?

Because I can show you plenty of recent SEC coaches who succeeded at their 1st job only to fall on their face in the SEC.

[dawgs]

Then let's go back to how each of these guys performed at their first stops...you used Marshall's success at Winthrop, Cronin's success at Murray State, etc. to show why they had a better chance of succeeding at their second job...but those were their first jobs. So you're using their success at their first stop to prove that it's easier to succeed at a 2nd job if you have already succeeded at your 1st...which doesn't really make logical sense.

Was it easier for Cronin to succeed at Cincinnati than it was for him to succeed at Murray State? Or is he just a good coach who is going to succeed wherever he is?

Because I can show you plenty of recent SEC coaches who succeeded at their 1st job only to fall on their face in the SEC.

WE ARE A SEC PROGRAM. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD OUR SITUATION GETS, WE SHOULD ALWAYS EITHER HIRE A PROVEN HC FROM A SMALLER PROGRAM OR PROMOTE FROM WITHIN IF OUR HC LEAVES HAD ENOUGH SUCCESS TO LEAVE FOR A BIGGER PROGRAM AND LEAVES BEHIND A SUCCESSFUL STAFF OR HIRE A TOP ASSISTANT FROM A MAJOR SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM.

i know yall will say that we didn't know how toxic the situation was. well that's on strickland for not acting sooner. that's on strickland for not selling the program to these guys. that's all on strickland, because when you make a hire, you sell your program and the future. all signs point to ray being in over his head. sure he could pull out of it, but is it likely? no.

[Coach34]

Since 1999- 15 years ago for everybody not named Kentucky:

1. Florida- already hired what everybody knew was a HR hire in Donovan in 1996.
2. Vanderbilt- hired Stallings- made 1 NCAA his first 7 years but has endured
3. Tennessee- made one good hire in Pearl...fired Buzz Buzz and praying Martin works out
4. Georgia- gone thru a few coaches still looking for success
5. SC- keeps going thru coaches
6. Ole Miss- fired Erckle after he couldnt handle things once Rob Evans players left. Kennedy has become their greatest coach they have ever had- 1 NCAA trip in 8 years
7. Bama- Had a good run with Gottfried- ran him off for Grant who had a good run at VCU- but it aint looking good
8. Auburn- keeps going thru coaches
9. LSU- ran off Brady for Trent Johnson who left for TCU because he hated dirty Southern recruiting...Jones underachieving this season
10. UPig- ran off Richardson cause he was slipping and running mouth too much, on their 3rd coach since

[Coach34]

i know yall will say that we didn't know how toxic the situation was. well that's on strickland for not acting sooner. that's on strickland for not selling the program to these guys. that's all on strickland, because when you make a hire, you sell your program and the future. all signs point to ray being in over his head. sure he could pull out of it, but is it likely? no.

I dont think you will find anyone that thinks Strick did a good job with the coaching search. Nobody....but that doesnt mean Ray doesnt get his 4 years to see what he can do

[engie]

WE ARE A SEC PROGRAM. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD OUR SITUATION GETS, WE SHOULD ALWAYS EITHER HIRE A PROVEN HC FROM A SMALLER PROGRAM OR PROMOTE FROM WITHIN IF OUR HC LEAVES HAD ENOUGH SUCCESS TO LEAVE FOR A BIGGER PROGRAM AND LEAVES BEHIND A SUCCESSFUL STAFF OR HIRE A TOP ASSISTANT FROM A MAJOR SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM.
Like Joe Dooley -- who inherited a Sweet 16 team at Florida Gulf Coast -- only to get skull ****ed by "Dumpster fire" Rick Ray in year 2? Or like Kenny Payne -- who is STILL assistant #3 under Calipari?


i know yall will say that we didn't know how toxic the situation was. well that's on strickland for not acting sooner. that's on strickland for not selling the program to these guys. that's all on strickland, because when you make a hire, you sell your program and the future. all signs point to ray being in over his head. sure he could pull out of it, but is it likely? no.
Who is this Strickland character you speak of?

[smootness]

WE ARE A SEC PROGRAM. I DON'T CARE HOW BAD OUR SITUATION GETS, WE SHOULD ALWAYS EITHER HIRE A PROVEN HC FROM A SMALLER PROGRAM OR PROMOTE FROM WITHIN IF OUR HC LEAVES HAD ENOUGH SUCCESS TO LEAVE FOR A BIGGER PROGRAM AND LEAVES BEHIND A SUCCESSFUL STAFF OR HIRE A TOP ASSISTANT FROM A MAJOR SUCCESSFUL PROGRAM.

You mean like Anthony Grant? Or Mark Fox? Or Darrin Horn? Or Trent Johnson? Or Mike Anderson? I'm not one who believes that someone with a lengthier resume equals a better hire. It doesn't work that way in coaching...you hire the guy you think has the best chance of getting the job done.


i know yall will say that we didn't know how toxic the situation was. well that's on strickland for not acting sooner. that's on strickland for not selling the program to these guys. that's all on strickland, because when you make a hire, you sell your program and the future. all signs point to ray being in over his head. sure he could pull out of it, but is it likely? no.

And this is where I just don't get it. What signs point to Ray being in over his head?

I will somewhat disagree with Coach. I'm not going to say Stricklin did a good job on the search; but I'm certainly not yet going to say he did a bad job. He went his own way, and he hired the guy he wanted. The verdict on Ray will be the verdict on the search/hire; you can't make an evaluation before that.

If Ray turns out to be a home run, then how will Stricklin have done a bad job on the coaching search? Did Duke's AD do a bad job in hiring Coach K just because he could have gotten someone who had a prettier resume? No, he made a phenomenal hire. I will never, ever base an evaluation of an AD's coaching search on 'Did he get the guy the fanbase wanted?' or 'Did he get the guy with the biggest name?'

[MarketingBully01]

Like Joe Dooley -- who inherited a Sweet 16 team at Florida Gulf Coast -- only to get skull ****ed by "Dumpster fire" Rick Ray in year 2? Or like Kenny Payne -- who is STILL assistant #3 under Calipari?


Who is this Strickland character you speak of?

Don't look now Engie but Joe Dooley is in position to make the NCAA tourney with his team. If I'm not mistaken, they are in second place in their league and could win their tourney to make the auto bid. But I digress. Rick Ray is much better then Joe Dooley....

[MarketingBully01]

a tourney run =/= a full season in major conf basketball. favorable one off matchups can lead to some interesting outcomes.

also, should be consider the literally hundreds of teams that didn't make sweet 16 runs that recruit on a low 3* and lower level? you point out a couple of exceptions and ignore the overwhelming rule, which is that talent matters a lot.

as for the specific teams:
2013: oregon is coached by dana allman, a very good, proven HC and wichita st is coached by marshall, a very good and proven HC
2012: xavier's HC was coming off a sweet 16 in 2010 and 2nd round appearance in 2011 and was promoted from a successful staff from within the program and had been the primary assistant on 4 straight tourney appearances including another sweet 16 and an elite 8 (so to compare that to ray, he was an assitant at a MUCH better program that had good success while he was one staff AND he was very very knowledgeable with xavier and their recruiting base and how to handle the program)
2011: sdsu - steve fisher, vcu - shaka smart, butler - brad stevens
2010 - butler - brad stevens, xavier - see above, washington - lorenzo romar in his 3rd straight tourney appearance

in other words, almost every single one of those you listed are coached by coaches that have a history of success prior to the sweet 16 run OR were promoted from within the program after the HC left after a run of success.

rick ray fits neither of those examples. hence why i am concerned he's more like the hundreds of basketball coaches that fail with mediocre or worse talent than the handful that actually succeed with it.

You just out-Engied Engie....Bravo!

[MarketingBully01]

You mean like Anthony Grant? Or Mark Fox? Or Darrin Horn? Or Trent Johnson? Or Mike Anderson? I'm not one who believes that someone with a lengthier resume equals a better hire. It doesn't work that way in coaching...you hire the guy you think has the best chance of getting the job done.



And this is where I just don't get it. What signs point to Ray being in over his head?

I will somewhat disagree with Coach. I'm not going to say Stricklin did a good job on the search; but I'm certainly not yet going to say he did a bad job. He went his own way, and he hired the guy he wanted. The verdict on Ray will be the verdict on the search/hire; you can't make an evaluation before that.

If Ray turns out to be a home run, then how will Stricklin have done a bad job on the coaching search? Did Duke's AD do a bad job in hiring Coach K just because he could have gotten someone who had a prettier resume? No, he made a phenomenal hire. I will never, ever base an evaluation of an AD's coaching search on 'Did he get the guy the fanbase wanted?' or 'Did he get the guy with the biggest name?'

We may disagree on a lot of things but I think you would be in the 1% of fans that didn't think Stricklin didn't F-up that hire. From the sheer perception from the outside, it looked like 4-5 coaches turned him down. That in my opinion is the definition of screwing up the hiring process.

[MarketingBully01]

You mean like Anthony Grant? Or Mark Fox? Or Darrin Horn? Or Trent Johnson? Or Mike Anderson? I'm not one who believes that someone with a lengthier resume equals a better hire. It doesn't work that way in coaching...you hire the guy you think has the best chance of getting the job done.



And this is where I just don't get it. What signs point to Ray being in over his head?

I will somewhat disagree with Coach. I'm not going to say Stricklin did a good job on the search; but I'm certainly not yet going to say he did a bad job. He went his own way, and he hired the guy he wanted. The verdict on Ray will be the verdict on the search/hire; you can't make an evaluation before that.

If Ray turns out to be a home run, then how will Stricklin have done a bad job on the coaching search? Did Duke's AD do a bad job in hiring Coach K just because he could have gotten someone who had a prettier resume? No, he made a phenomenal hire. I will never, ever base an evaluation of an AD's coaching search on 'Did he get the guy the fanbase wanted?' or 'Did he get the guy with the biggest name?'

Coach K is a terrible example. He was tutored under Bob Knight and had been a head coach at Army five years before taking the job at Duke. Who is Rick Ray's mentor? Heck, if he came in with the credentials Coach K had at Army I wouldn't be bitching at all.

[engie]

We may disagree on a lot of things but I think you would be in the 1% of fans that didn't think Stricklin didn't F-up that hire. From the sheer perception from the outside, it looked like 4-5 coaches turned him down. That in my opinion is the definition of screwing up the hiring process.

There's a BIG difference between "f'ing up a search process" and "f'ing up a hire". We don't know yet about the hire itself. You can still arrive at the correct answer via the wrong method...

[mcdawg]

Ya'll can argue all day, but there is one fact - nobody cares enough about MSU basketball to attend games any more. You can quote stats, make arguments, etc. - but that is the bottom line. MSU basketball is irrelevant now to most fans. Good coach or bad recruiter - doesn't matter. I completely get the comments that we needed a coaching change - but I argued back then (and will again today) that the TIMING of the change was the problem - Stans needed to go earlier or be allowed one more year (w/o Sydney) to bring in more talent (try to keep Hood, Josh Daniels/Ware/Sword/Fred, try to get Pollard, etc). I predicted that it would make basketball irrelevant and it has. I kept my 4 lower level tickets but have only been to 3 games - not a product that I am going to give up other weekend things to spend 6 hours driving/watching. And, I cannot give them away (and I use to have people beg for them). Like many others that I talk to, I don't even bother to watch the games. Apathy is killing our program. Hopefully, it will get better next season so fans will even start caring again - but I am predicting that fans will still not come back even it we are better. Too many have given up. I personally don't think getting better to "average" is going to be enough.