So Hugh Kellenburger sees Ole Miss baseball as an 'elite level' program.....

[Goat Holder]

"The truth is that your past always precedes you, and Ole Miss is an elite-level program that has not advanced to a Super Regional since 2009 (also the last time it hosted in the postseason) and is led by a coach who was given the not-so-ringing endorsement of a one-year contract extension (through 2015) after a disappointing end to 2013."

From today's CL article here: http://www.clarionledger.com/article/20140212/SPORTS030103/302120027/Season-Change-Coming-off-underwhelming-2013-Ole-Miss-Bianco-enter-pivotal-year?nclick_check=1

THAT is the big difference in beat writers for Ole Miss and MSU.

Nothing about Ole Miss baseball is elite. They called themselves elite during the 2000s because, well, that's what they do. And depressed MSU fans believed it namely because our program was floundering. They had an elite team in 2005 and an above average team in 2009. They might would have been elite had Scott Bittle not gotten hurt. That's far from an elite program. A stadium does not make you elite, ask UCLA and the countless other programs that have big success without big facilities.

Ole Hugh needs a good lesson on what the definition of elite is.

[esplanade91]

Of all the SEC schools, aren't they on the longest CWS drought?

I don't know about elite, but Ole Miss is upper-tier. Big gap between upper-tier and elite though. The thing that pops out to me about Ole Miss baseball is all the "elite" individual talent they've had in the last 10 years. Seems like there are all sorts of young guys in the MLB from the same time as our dark days from Ole Miss, but again... they never did anything with it. Elite teams come together, theirs don't.

[ShotgunDawg]

The problem isn't what Kellenburger said, because I actually agree with them, that over the past 10 years or so, OM has been an elite level program that just hasn't gone to the CWS.

My bigger problem is that the MSU reporters likely wouldn't be just as fair to MSU if they were in the same situation.

[Jacksondevildog]

Until Ole Miss gets to Omaha, all of their claimed superiority is moot. They have a very nice stadium, but their attendance and frustration with Bianco is trending downward. They shot their wad in the mid to late 2000's when they couldn't get to Omaha. If Chris Ellis cannot be the dominant Friday night guy for them this year, they will struggle mightily. Ive heard that he's a head case. That's exactly what you do NOT want as your Friday night guy. Ole Miss was having a lot of success when the national media (ESPN, Perfect Game, etc.) started giving a lot of coverage to college baseball. It's not a fluke that when MSU was down, USM and Ole Miss were at the top of their game as a program.

[messageboardsuperhero]

A team that hasn't been to the CWS in 40 years and has won only one conference co-championship in that time span simply cannot be considered elite. I'm sorry to any UM fan who has delusions of grandeur, but UM doesn't have an elite baseball program.

Do they have the potential to be good? Absolutely- but to call them "elite" is laughable.

ETA: And their "top 5 attendance" talk is ridiculous. I've been to some of their games. We complain about our grandstand people not showing up, but they are just as bad, if not worse. The only reason they have higher attendance numbers than we do is because their stadium allows them to sell more tickets, plus they have a good student setup. I'd be shocked if we didn't have a higher actual attendance average than they do, and if we put in an actual student area, it wouldn't be close.

[esplanade91]

Every time Ole Miss is brought up everyone talks about their "nice" stadium. Says everything I can't about Ole Miss. Fancy pants who try to steer the conversation away from their on-the-field success.

4 years ago MSU and UM would have gotten their asses kicked in USM's high school stadium. They gave CS-F hell in that dump, which is something I don't think we could have done early last season.

[LC Dawg]

Meanwhile the MSU beat writers are searching for videos of Palmeiro and Clark making racist jokes for their "History of MSU Baseball" article.

[starkvegasdawg]

So old Hugh is saying they are an elite program that just happens to have not done anything considered elite. In that case I now officially proclaim MSU basketball an elite program. Suck it Duke.

[chainedup_Dawg]

Nothing about a college baseball program can be elite if that program has never made it to Omaha, period.

[Johnson85]

The problem isn't what Kellenburger said, because I actually agree with them, that over the past 10 years or so, OM has been an elite level program that just hasn't gone to the CWS.

My bigger problem is that the MSU reporters likely wouldn't be just as fair to MSU if they were in the same situation.

I don't think you can be elite if you don't win your conference (in a good conference) semi-regularly and you don't go to the CWS. There's definitely some luck involved getting to the CWS, but if you're really an elite program, you're going to break through and make it to the CWS eventually. Consistently being top 3 in the SEC while never making it to the CWS would mean you have a very good program, but even then you couldn't claim to be elite if that didn't translate to a CWS for over a decade, much less over four decades.

It's the same knock on Stansbury. Partly he had some bad luck in never making the Sweet 16, but it's still indicative of the quality of his program. Had he been a little better, the breaks would ahve gone his way (in part because he wouldn't have ended up with 8/9 seeds in two years where he had Sweet 16 talent).

[gtowndawg]

We've had how many sellouts in a row? Beautiful stadium, 4 straight bowls. We're elite. Can't argue with those facts.

//Wait. We've never been to a BCS bowl? Doesn't matter. See above. Still elite.

[bully99]

Depends on what you consider elite..no pun intended. They have a good program, good facilities and and a lot of money. And it's foolish to underestimate your opponent. They have been to 4 college world series. Not in forty years.

Lsu could say the same thing about us. They have six national titles and we have none. We haven't won the regular season sec in 25 years. It's all in your prospective about things.

[Coach34]

The problem isn't what Kellenburger said, because I actually agree with them, that over the past 10 years or so, OM has been an elite level program that just hasn't gone to the CWS.

My bigger problem is that the MSU reporters likely wouldn't be just as fair to MSU if they were in the same situation.

I just dont think you can be called "elite" without making at least 1 appearance in the CWS. I mean, they have 4 Sweet 16's the last 10 years in baseball and that is very good. Very good. Not Elite though.

Your point on MSU reporters is valid though

[Johnson85]

Depends on what you consider elite..no pun intended. They have a good program, good facilities and and a lot of money. And it's foolish to underestimate your opponent. They have been to 4 college world series. Not in forty years.

Lsu could say the same thing about us. They have six national titles and we have none. We haven't won the regular season sec in 25 years. It's all in your prospective about things.

It's not underestimating them, it's just using the 'elite' in the way it's commonly understood. LSU can reasonably argue that you're not truly an elite program if you haven't ever won a national championship. We can argue that making it to the world series basically every decade and being consistent participants in the post season, coupled with a recent number 2 finish makes us elite. I can buy either of those arguments. I'd actually lean towards LSU's argument, although I think there is somethign to be said for MSU being so solid over so many years.

But making it to the college world series just means you were in the final 8 (how long has it been like this?). Is it reasonable to consider a program elite if they don't ever make it into the top 8? I don't think you'd call a basketball program elite if they've never made it to a final four, but certainly not if they hadn't been in the elite 8 in 40 years. Getting to the sweet 16 reasonably consistently is a hell of an accomplishment and if you do it, you've got a good program. But it's not elite if you never make it past the Sweet 16. Even if you make the sweet sixteen 16 every single year after having great regular seasons, I don't think you can claim the program is elite without going further in the post season.

[messageboardsuperhero]

Depends on what you consider elite..no pun intended. They have a good program, good facilities and and a lot of money. And it's foolish to underestimate your opponent. They have been to 4 college world series. Not in forty years.

Lsu could say the same thing about us. They have six national titles and we have none. We haven't won the regular season sec in 25 years. It's all in your prospective about things.

And I wouldn't necessarily argue with them. I think we're still working towards becoming a truly consistent "elite" program, and we have a good chance to take another step to becoming an elite program this year- but that being said, we're not quite there yet.

We're certainly a lot closer than UM is though. Could you imagine a football team who hasn't been to a BCS-level bowl game in 40 years calling themselves elite? Or a basketball program who hasn't been in the elite 8 since the early 70s calling themselves an elite program? Think about how ridiculous that sounds. They do have a good baseball program with some nice potential- but they are not elite.

[Goat Holder]

I don't think we are elite. I honestly think we're no better than Top 15 all-time, maybe even just Top 20. I can think of at least 15 programs that are a step ahead of us. Ole Miss is much worse than that.

[maroonmania]

Exactly, our basketball program has accomplished much more over the last 25 years than OM's baseball program and I certainly don't think our basketball program is "elite". But we've been to a Final Four and Sweet Sixteen, won 2 SEC titles, multiple tourney titles and a crapload of Western division championships. What has OM baseball accomplished? I mean seriously, like one tourney title and some SRs? Big woo.

[Goat Holder]

Wow, even worse when you think about it like that. Almost pathetic.

[thunderclap]

It's just a typo. It's spelled "aloof."

[smootness]

I certainly don't think they're elite in any way, but they have been to Omaha 4 times; just none in forever. Just seems like a good portion of our fan base thinks they've literally never been.

[Coach34]

Its been 40 years since OM has been to Omaha, so basically since the creation of the aluminum bat- they havent been to Omaha.

[M.Fillmore]

Guys. You aren't giving the BearSharks the credit they deserve. The are the only school to ever take a swimming team to Omaha. The UM Baseball team hasn't been to Omaha in 50 years.

[Coach34]

they went in 1972- 42 years

[Schultzy]

Guys. You aren't giving the BearSharks the credit they deserve. The are the only school to ever take a swimming team to Omaha. The UM Baseball team hasn't been to Omaha in 50 years.

Are you referring to some old story about ole miss putting baseball players on swimming scholarships until the NCAA found out and put an end to it bc there wasn't even a swimming pool on campus? Much less a swim team.

Pretty funny story if true.

[engie]

They still think they are elite in football because of stuff that happened from the 50s to early 70s -- why should baseball be any different?

[Johnson85]

Its been 40 years since OM has been to Omaha, so basically since the creation of the aluminum bat- they havent been to Omaha.

So basically the defining moments in two of the three major sports for Ole Miss are the introduction of aluminum bats and integration. It has sucked to be a state fan at times, but it's got to be worse being an Ole Miss fan.

[Goat Holder]

^^ This....tells you everything you need to know. We all have our allegiances, and I'd never change, so taking that out of the picture, when I really feel frustrated about MSU, I usually feel better by thinking that at least we're not Ole Miss. And that's the truth. In no way, shape or form would I take any of their recent history over ours.

[Goat Holder]

Granted, but Kellenburger wasn't referring to pre-integration as their basis for being elite. He was talking about the Bianco Era. Even die-hard rebels don't stoop so low to mention the CWS in the 60s.

They feel elite due to their stadium and supposed money/fanbase, who doesn't show up. They don't have the results on the field to support anything outside above average for even their best time period.

[Schultzy]

Their teams that lost to Texas and Miami in their home super regionals could've put that program over the hump to a run of elite status. Especially the team that lost to Texas, I thought they may win it all that year.

But coming that close and not getting it done was killer for that program and Bianco. Theyv'e been decent but haven't really gotten off the matt since.

[Goat Holder]

Yep.

They had one last shot with Virginia at home in 2009, and blew their wad all over the place after Game 1. What a colossal choke job. I knew at that point, after Cohen's first year where we took 2 of 3 in Oxford, that we could turn the tide. They had a last gasp effort with Wahl and Co. over the past two years, but they blew that opportunity out at Texas A&M as well. Now, I think they are finished, while our program is about to soar. At least for the foreseeable future, meaning 5 years.

Even their fans know, as evidenced by them turning over and taking it. They don't even engage in baseball discussion anymore. Yet somehow they are 'elite'.

[Schultzy]

MSU baseball, on the other hand, finds ways to get it done even in marginal years like '07.

Hell even last year we beat a heavily favored and highly talented Virginia team to make it to Omaha. Many thought that Virginia team could've won it all last year.

History shows over the decades that if anyone is to be considered elite in this neck of the woods it's MSU.

[Todd4State]

I think this article is more about putting pressure on Bianco than anything. There is a better than average chance that they are going to fire arguably their most successful coach in school history and they have to justify that. By saying that he's not achieving things on an elite level when they really "should be" is justification for that. When/if they fire Bianco, they are also going to have to explain this to their potential coaching candidates as well. No one wants to go somewhere that just fired a coach as successful as Bianco. And if they do go there, there are going to be some reservations for sure. Also- on top of everything else, they are probably about to fire a coach that's about to take them to a regional again.

If the rumors are true, the only Bianco can save his job is by hosting a regional at the minimum.

They benefitted from us being down in the 2000's. It's a different baseball culture if you will in Mississippi now. Cohen is going all out and winning big. The Pine Belt is the Mississippi version of Panola County as far as baseball recruiting goes and a lot of the better players there are going to USM and are under immense pressure to do so. Memphis is an area that Ole Miss would like to dominate as far as baseball goes- but you have MSU, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, Arkansas, Memphis, and others that split that area up and no one really dominates that city as far as baseball recruiting goes.

So, in short- as long as we are not gifting players to them like Polk was doing, they are going to be about what they are right now. A solid regional team.

[Todd4State]

MSU baseball, on the other hand, finds ways to get it done even in marginal years like '07.

Hell even last year we beat a heavily favored and highly talented Virginia team to make it to Omaha. Many thought that Virginia team could've won it all last year.

History shows over the decades that if anyone is to be considered elite in this neck of the woods it's MSU.

As far as 07- I really believe that we have the greatest home field advantage in the regionals in the country. Clemson was completely shell shocked. The last time we lost a regional in Starkville was because Polk grossly mismanaged the pitching staff and thought we needed Maholm to beat MTSU at home in game one. And then before that, the last time we lost in Starkville when we hosted was 1991.

[bully99]

We also lost regionals in starkville in 84, 87, 89 . To me that's what seperated Polk and Bertman. Skip dominated his home regionals and Polk didn't. IMO,the 84and 89 teams were polks' best teams and never made it to Omaha. Where would we be if we had won some national championships.

[Todd4State]

We also lost regionals in starkville in 84, 87, 89 . To me that's what seperated Polk and Bertman. Skip dominated his home regionals and Polk didn't. IMO,the 84and 89 teams were polks' best teams and never made it to Omaha. Where would we be if we had won some national championships.

I think the difference between Polk and Bertman was:

Bertman had a deeper pitching staff.

Bertman was able to take advantage of the bats at the time. All their NC's were in the 90's. They also used steroids. No doubt about it.

Bertman was a better in game manager and was willing to steal and hit and run at times.

[Goat Holder]

Ha, yeah. Polk is almost our Bianco, just another step up toward 'elitism'. We have a good history but we also underachieved in some big time situations. That 1989 team was like 52-10 and got bounced in our own regional. Albeit regionals were 6 teams and tougher back then, that really should be akin to losing a Super Regional.

Problem for Ole Miss, they don't really have an 'Ole Miss guy' to come in and bust his ass for them like we did with Cohen. They think they can get Dan McDonnell, but Louisville is now arguably a better program and can pay more than Ole Miss. Being in the ACC now only helps, good baseball over there. Plus he's from like New York or somewhere, not exactly a black bear guy. Just because he was an assistant there doesn't mean he's dying to come to Oxford.

[gtowndawg]

Its been 40 years since OM has been to Omaha, so basically since the creation of the aluminum bat- they havent been to Omaha.

Aluminum bats and segregation.

[Goat Holder]

They also used steroids.

Yeeeah, we weren't exactly innocent in that regard.

[Todd4State]

Yeeeah, we weren't exactly innocent in that regard.

I kind of skirted around that regarding us. LSU definitely used them more or at the very least they were bigger.

[bully99]

I agree about pitching depth, but Polk had 4 first round pitchers in the early to mid 90's and a second round pick, not including Jay Powell and Scott Tanksley and others. Polk had some great arms.He played for the 3 run homer and got out managed too many times.

[MsStateBaseball]

Elite takes many many years to accomplish. No they are not. Mid level.

[engie]

Problem for Ole Miss, they don't really have an 'Ole Miss guy' to come in and bust his ass for them like we did with Cohen. They think they can get Dan McDonnell, but Louisville is now arguably a better program and can pay more than Ole Miss. Being in the ACC now only helps, good baseball over there. Plus he's from like New York or somewhere, not exactly a black bear guy. Just because he was an assistant there doesn't mean he's dying to come to Oxford.

McDonnell isn't going to seriously entertain OM unless Bianco gets to leave OM on his own terms. He's still best friends with him. They talk almost weekly.

They are going to have to throw MAJOR money at the next coach if they get rid of Bianco without letting him bottom out first if they think they can pull a big name. There's ALOT of inherent disadvantages to OM and MSU that few other coaches in the country deal with(no lottery scholarship etc) -- especially if they are expected to keep a team in the top 8 or top 16 in a state that isn't just loaded with baseball talent.

[Political Hack]

OM hasn't been to Omaha since they lost wood.

[Todd4State]

I agree about pitching depth, but Polk had 4 first round pitchers in the early to mid 90's and a second round pick, not including Jay Powell and Scott Tanksley and others. Polk had some great arms.He played for the 3 run homer and got out managed too many times.

Yes, we had better pitching than most which is why we won a lot of games. But when it comes regional/Omaha time- that's when it really shows up. Usually we would have someone like BJ Wallace, Eric DuBose, Bobby Reed, etc. and then a really good closer like Powell and Tanksley.

Last year for example- we were deeper on the mound than most of Polk's teams even though we only had one clear cut starting pitcher. Plus, Butch and John were willing to be unconventional with how they used Girodo, Fitts, Ross, etc. and it was a big reason why we were able to go deeper into the CWS than ever before. I also don't think it was a coincidence that Polk's best team went further when he had his best starting duo- Brantley and Morgan along with Thigpen.

[Todd4State]

McDonnell isn't going to seriously entertain OM unless Bianco gets to leave OM on his own terms. He's still best friends with him. They talk almost weekly.

They are going to have to throw MAJOR money at the next coach if they get rid of Bianco without letting him bottom out first if they think they can pull a big name. There's ALOT of inherent disadvantages to OM and MSU that few other coaches in the country deal with(no lottery scholarship etc) -- especially if they are expected to keep a team in the top 8 or top 16 in a state that isn't just loaded with baseball talent.

Not to mention that they are going to have to deal with a major in state powerhouse which will further decrease their talent pool. And that will in all likelihood build a facility much better than the one Ole Miss currently has.