Just curious, why do some of you expect us to be a great basketball program?

[Goat Holder]

Because we made the Final Four once?

Facts are:

- We are probably 10th in the SEC in facilities, above Georgia, Carolina, Auburn, Ole Miss. The Hump is old, seats what, 10K? Yeah we have a nice practice facility but does that put us above Kentucky, Arkansas, Mizzou, Tennessee, Florida and LSU? Vandy and Texas A&M are debatable I guess. Auburn's arena is at least newer than ours.

- Tradition wise, we have to rank behind Kentucky, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Missouri and LSU. I really don't know about the others. Not sure how good Tennessee was before Pearl.

- We are located in a rural area that won't produce the consistent crowds necessary to be a basketball power (maybe this isn't necessary, but it is still a fact that our crowds are much smaller than the power schools).

- We are surrounded by Mississippi talent, for better or for worse, and are probably at their mercy. I don't know if this is good or bad. It doesn't seem the state is producing many Eric Dampier's any more. I've some of you say we need to be on northern or international talent, I'm not sure that is realistic.

I wanted Stansbury gone at the end too, I think we all did. The Stans lovers and haters both had ammunition until the Sidney Saga, which at that point I think everyone deep down agreed we needed a change, for better or worse. Now, people are getting on Rick Ray pretty hard. I think the man needs 3 years before we start bitching, and ultimately 4 years before you can fire him (assuming he slightly improves). And from what I've seen, we are better than we were last year. Won 10 against a harder schedule, so you'd think winning 13 this year would be equal, so assuming we win 2-3 more, I'd say it's a success.

Bottom line, reaching the NIT or better 3 of 5 years isn't so bad at MSU IMO. I think for most of Stans' tenure he was an above average coach. He reached postseason play 11 of 14 years and won the SEC, that isn't too shabby. I guess what I'm saying is, unless Ray misses the NIT next year, we really don't have a reason to bitch.

Disclaimers: I neither know much nor am I educated on basketball. Just my very vague GENERAL opinion of what I see.

[Coach34]

Because many people have this perception we were better under Stands than we really were. You see people post the "4th most wins in the SEC over a 10 year period"- but when you look at where we actually finished, it doesnt show that.

As poster thf24 showed:

3rd or 4th at worst? Here's our conference standing over the ten seasons preceding the 2012 purge:

2011-12: 6
2010-11: 6
2009-10: 5
2008-09: 6
2007-08: 2
2006-07: 6
2005-06: 9
2004-05: 5
2003-04: 1
2002-03: 4
2001-02: 2

In Stansbury's last 7 seasons, we finished 6th or worse 6 times.

[Dawg61]

In the last 20 years we've been to the Tourney 8 times and the NIT 6 times. We've been to 2 sweet 16, one Final Four, won the SEC tournament 3 times and been the outright champ once. We didn't fire Stansbury to fall back into the pack. We fired him to take the next step into the top tier every year in the SEC. That's exactly why I'm so tough on Ray. We are forgetting why we fired Stansbury and the Poor Ol Miss State attitude is creeping back in. Not for me.

[Dawg61]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

[smootness]

We absolutely got rid of Stans in order to take the next step. But that doesn't mean anyone thought it was going to happen within 2 years. Everyone understood that we had to take a momentary step back in order to give ourselves a chance to ultimately get better.

It may work, it may not. I'm glad we made the move and I think the jury is still absolutely out on whether or not we will ultimately make the move forward.

Have we ever been a great basketball program? No. But we have been a good one and we have some things going for us. We should never settle for the back of the pack in the SEC, or even mediocrity. I think we still have the potential to be a very good basketball program, and I still believe Ray can be the guy to take us there.

[Goat Holder]

Using your numbers, we averaged finishing 4.18th in the SEC, so 4th. That's actually ahead of where we stand when you compare resources/traditions/fan support/etc. So like I said earlier, we're more middle range, anywhere from 6-10. So yeah, I feel like Stans overachieved over his whole tenure. But even overachievers have to move on at some point. King Jackie falls into that camp too.

I wasn't really going that direction though. It wasn't a bash or praise Stans deal, I just wanted to lay out some ground level realities about what MSU basketball really is. But I do get your point. We were not elite under Stans, although that SEC overall championship was very nice.

[C222]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

We also only had 4 Tournament wins in 14 seasons.

[Coach34]

During Stansbury's 14 seasons we were 4th in the SEC in wins and that's with a couple of turd seasons in the front and back.

during Stands 14 seasons John Brady went to a Final Four and a Sweet 16

Stands was consistent- he only had 2 bad seasons- but where we finished overall in the SEC tells the story

[Goat Holder]

We didn't fire Stansbury to fall back into the pack. We fired him to take the next step into the top tier every year in the SEC. That's exactly why I'm so tough on Ray.

How do you expect a coach to make it happen with our resources, in relation to our conference competition? Do you want the coach to be a miracle worker?


the Poor Ol Miss State attitude is creeping back in. Not for me.

This shaming technique has worn thin. I am not of this thinking. I'm asking hard questions that I'd like someone like you to truthfully answer WITHOUT comments like this. I want to understand your point of view.

[Coach34]

Using your numbers, we averaged finishing 4.18th in the SEC, so 4th. .

That was his last 10 seasons- not his whole career

and the average I got was 5.2

[Goat Holder]

Actually neither of us can add...it's 4.73.

Either way, Stans was slightly above average, but definitely not elite. So it even makes less sense to hold Ray to any type of 'elite' standard.

I guess my baseline for Ray is to make postseason play roughly half the time, finish around mid-conference on average, and not embarrass the university on TV.

If we want more, fans need to start selling out consistently and pumping money into the program.

[Coach34]

Actually neither of us can add...it's 4.73.

Either way, Stans was slightly above average, but definitely not elite. So it even makes less sense to hold Ray to any type of 'elite' standard.

It adds up to 52 does it not- and divided by 10 is 5.2

You dont divide by 12- you're doing number of years

[Goat Holder]

You have 11 years listed. Take out the 2nd place finish in 2002 and you're at 5th place even.

[PMDawg]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

[Coach34]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

that's probably the best way to put it

[Coach34]

You have 11 years listed. Take out the 2nd place finish in 2002 and you're at 5th place even.

he did list 11 didnt he? no wonder....my bad

[Intramural All-American]

The fact is we waited one year too long to make the move and we ended up hiring an unproven assistant and giving him a completely bare cupboard to work with.

Exactly. So people should at least give Ray next year before holding judgment.

[Goat Holder]

I could go with this. I mean 2011 was the year of the Hawaii fight wasn't it? Yeah that's likely the year he should have been pushed out, 2012 didn't really do anything to further reinforce failure, just more of the same. I'd have liked to have seen what Ray could do with Bost, Moultrie and gulp, Sidney. Maybe he could have motivated him and if not, he could have been a hero by kicking his fat ass to the curb.

BUT...would Hood and the other signees still be legally obligated to play for us?

[thf24]

I'm not sure I agree that we fired Stansbury to take the next step. Had we let him go one or two years earlier, then I would agree. "Taking the next step" factored in to the decision, sure, but the main purpose of firing him when we did was to clean house. The issues that plagued the most talented team of his head coaching career made it clear that he had handed the inmates the keys and turned his back. Things had gotten to the point where they could absolutely not be allowed to continue in the manner they were.

[Johnson85]

I don't expect to be great, I expect to continue to try to be great. We need to hire a coach, give him a chance, and if he can't get it done, try again. Eventually we'll hire a good enough coach that we'll be good. At some point, we'll also be faced with a tough decision of knowing that the coach we have won't make us any better, but that we'll likely step backwards with our next coach. We were basically there with Stansbury. Had his later teams been disciplined and the locker room not poisoned, the right choice probably would have been to keep him and be happy as an above average SEC program but still not a good program. With the bad culture that had set in, it was probably best for everybody to move on.

That said, I think we're trying right now. Ray seems to be a pretty decent coach and seems to have work to do as a recruiter. It's hard to be sure since he inherited such a dumpster fire and is trying to recruit to it in an area he hasn't built up a lot of ties. After another couple of years, we'll probably have a good idea if he is not the answer, although it's possible he could have improved enough by that point that he deserved another year without us being sure if he's good or not.

[C222]

I could go with this. I mean 2011 was the year of the Hawaii fight wasn't it? Yeah that's likely the year he should have been pushed out, 2012 didn't really do anything to further reinforce failure, just more of the same. I'd have liked to have seen what Ray could do with Bost, Moultrie and gulp, Sidney. Maybe he could have motivated him and if not, he could have been a hero by kicking his fat ass to the curb.

BUT...would Hood and the other signees still be legally obligated to play for us?

Stans last year was one of the worst coaching jobs I have ever seen. Not getting to the tourney with 2 first round NBA drafts picks was a travesty.

[Schultzy]

I agree with generally being a middle of the pack conference program but with a high ceiling. NCAA tourney 40% of the time with a sweet sixteen once a decade and round of 32 as well.

Disagree on facilities. Humphrey Coliseum and the practice facilities are very nice and a good recruiting tool. The Hump is one of the smartest projects MSU has ever done. 10,000 is plenty for college hoops, even better than the 24,000 seat antiseptic (and not sold out) facilities at NC and Tennessee.

[Dawg61]

My point of view is that if you take the point we fire Stansbury and use the last 16 years as your base MSU is the #4 program in the SEC in terms of wins. We lacked in postseason wins amongst other things but that's my floor. Why fire someone to lower your floor? I get that it most likely takes dropping before you can rise higher. Ok. I'm not ok with that drop going so low it takes 8 years to get back to where we were when we fired Stans. And I assume most of you aren't ok with that either.

Stansbury was proven to be outcoached by many. If he can keep MSU at #4 I'm not going to lower that bar for the next guy. I'd have the same expectations for ANYONE that takes over. Our facilities are just fine. Within 10 years we probably need to do something with the Hump but we ain't poor. We need a coach that can develop players. MS, AL, TN and LA produce fantastic athletes. We need someone that can do what Mullen is doing to an extent. Craig Sword would be All-SEC if he could shoot functionally at all. We need a coach that can turn a player like Craig Sword into an elite player. Same with Ware, Ready etc. Then the domino effect starts happening. Players start to realize that MSU will turn them into elite players and maybe NBA players. That has to start happening somehow. We will never be able to compete with Kentucky and Florida if we can't figure out a way to produce NBA talent. We produce NFL talent. We produce MLB talent. I'm expecting basketball to keep up atleast somewhat. We've had 1 1st round pick in the last 15 years. That MUST change. We are the STATE's University and the largest school in MS. Mississippi produces NBA players. How many have come from MS in the last 15 years? It's way more than one. Mississippi State must round up its State's horses and we'd be a top 25 program again. Gone needs to be the days we let our State's best go win elsewhere. I need help here. Y'all are all about some football recruiting. We have multiple posters telling everyone our top 25 targets in football for this next season already. Where's the bball fanatics for recruiting? I try my best but some of y'all need to speak up a little more. Let us know about the guy at your high school that put in 40 on Friday night. Lets all of us become better aware of what MS has to offer in basketball and maybe it will trickle on over to Ray and his staff. We have hundreds of fans showing Twitter love to football recruits yet how many even know of any other HS players besides Malik Newman?

Our fans seem to be "all-in" with baseball and football. If we all had that same attitude towards basketball we'd be right back on top in no time. Hail State

[Coach34]

Stands was fired because of the dumpster fire the program had become. It wasnt about wins and losses

[Coach34]

I'm not lowering any expectations for Ray either- let me be clear. This was simply a 2 yr rebuild because of where he took over the program and the crap he had to "weed" out.

Starting next year, the expectations of playing in postseason return.

[grinnindawg]

To paraphrase Lee Trevino, if you call us "great" what do you call Kentucky?

SEC wise I want us to be .500 or better 4 of 5 years with occasional forays into the 12-15 win territory.
The off year or 2 should be no worse than 5 to 7 wins.
To me that's what the last quarter century has proven is possible.
If a coach can't do that in what the SEC has become in bball, he's awful. I hope Ray can get it done.

Stans could coach D and early in his tenure we rebounded well.
His undoing was never learning to manage difficult personalities or hire someone who could and listen to them.

[LC Dawg]

I've always thought that basketball is a great way for us to compete at the top of the league. In football our division signs multiple top 5 classes. In basketball if we sign a couple of studs, maybe even semi-studs, we can easily be in the top five in the league. A lot of the schools in the league don't even seem to care about basketball. The problem I see is that outside of JPS and a handful of other state schools I don't think we are going to get much talent from Mississippi. I've been to quite a few 4A/5A basketball games over the past few years and the talent just doesn't seem to be there. Some of the coaching I saw was worse than the playing. I recently went to a junior high game to watch a friend's kid play and most of the kids looked like they'd hardly ever played basketball.

[Brad Stevens]

I've always thought that basketball is a great way for us to compete at the top of the league. In football our division signs multiple top 5 classes. In basketball if we sign a couple of studs, maybe even semi-studs, we can easily be in the top five in the league. A lot of the schools in the league don't even seem to care about basketball. The problem I see is that outside of JPS and a handful of other state schools I don't think we are going to get much talent from Mississippi. I've been to quite a few 4A/5A basketball games over the past few years and the talent just doesn't seem to be there. Some of the coaching I saw was worse than the playing. I recently went to a junior high game to watch a friend's kid play and most of the kids looked like they'd hardly ever played basketball.

Sir, I don't know you, but this is perfect. Your observations are completely correct. For the most part, the coaching in this state (development from junior high through high school) is severely lacking. For us to truly succeed, we need to get more fundamental players from out of MS. Some of our best players in recent history are out-of-staters. (Sword, Bost, Jamont, Varnado, Stewart, Power, Roberts, etc.) -- Most of the guys who don't pan out or transfer are talented players that lack fundamentals (Shaun smith, Gardner, Deville Smith, Osby, etc.)

[Coach34]

I've always thought that basketball is a great way for us to compete at the top of the league. In football our division signs multiple top 5 classes. In basketball if we sign a couple of studs, maybe even semi-studs, we can easily be in the top five in the league. A lot of the schools in the league don't even seem to care about basketball. The problem I see is that outside of JPS and a handful of other state schools I don't think we are going to get much talent from Mississippi. I've been to quite a few 4A/5A basketball games over the past few years and the talent just doesn't seem to be there. Some of the coaching I saw was worse than the playing. I recently went to a junior high game to watch a friend's kid play and most of the kids looked like they'd hardly ever played basketball.

good post

[Dawg61]

If Dan Mullen can find them in football we can find them in basketball. We only need two a year maybe less maybe more. Dan needs 10-15 every year. In the entire State of Mississippi we just need TWO basketball players per year. Recruit better. Plain and simple. For each player we've struck out on there's been 3 others leave and be good players elsewhere. Some are NBA players. We don't have to survive solely on MS but it needs to be our bread and butter first.

[Intramural All-American]

Just out of curiosity, who are some of these that have left Mississippi and been good elsewhere? And don't give me Q Ross and Johnny O'Bryant because they chose to leave. We recruited both of them and lost.

[TheDogFather]

Because we made the Final Four once?

Facts are:

- We are probably 10th in the SEC in facilities, above Georgia, Carolina, Auburn, Ole Miss. The Hump is old, seats what, 10K? Yeah we have a nice practice facility but does that put us above Kentucky, Arkansas, Mizzou, Tennessee, Florida and LSU? Vandy and Texas A&M are debatable I guess. Auburn's arena is at least newer than ours.

- Tradition wise, we have to rank behind Kentucky, Arkansas, Florida, Tennessee, Missouri and LSU. I really don't know about the others. Not sure how good Tennessee was before Pearl.

- We are located in a rural area that won't produce the consistent crowds necessary to be a basketball power (maybe this isn't necessary, but it is still a fact that our crowds are much smaller than the power schools).

- We are surrounded by Mississippi talent, for better or for worse, and are probably at their mercy. I don't know if this is good or bad. It doesn't seem the state is producing many Eric Dampier's any more. I've some of you say we need to be on northern or international talent, I'm not sure that is realistic.

I wanted Stansbury gone at the end too, I think we all did. The Stans lovers and haters both had ammunition until the Sidney Saga, which at that point I think everyone deep down agreed we needed a change, for better or worse. Now, people are getting on Rick Ray pretty hard. I think the man needs 3 years before we start bitching, and ultimately 4 years before you can fire him (assuming he slightly improves). And from what I've seen, we are better than we were last year. Won 10 against a harder schedule, so you'd think winning 13 this year would be equal, so assuming we win 2-3 more, I'd say it's a success.

Bottom line, reaching the NIT or better 3 of 5 years isn't so bad at MSU IMO. I think for most of Stans' tenure he was an above average coach. He reached postseason play 11 of 14 years and won the SEC, that isn't too shabby. I guess what I'm saying is, unless Ray misses the NIT next year, we really don't have a reason to bitch.

Disclaimers: I neither know much nor am I educated on basketball. Just my very vague GENERAL opinion of what I see.

Most are in denial of how good a coach Stansbury was. In fact you are understating his accomplishments in this post.

Stansbury had our program behind only Florida and Kentucky at one point - and not briefly. Hardly average or "above average". Stansbury at one point was top twenty in winning percentage among active coaches. Hardly average or above average. As you state, Stansbury had our program in postseason 11 of 14 years. Hardly average or just above average. Stansbury averaged 21 wins per year.

So all of the Stansbury "haters" can state their opinions all they want - we are all entitled to them and none are illegitimate. Although you will find the majority of posts aimed at Stansbiry "supporters" are filled with harsh criticisms and language aimed at discrediting them.

Unfortunately for the "haters" you cannot change history, records, or comparisons to other teams which is what I believe frustrates them the most.

So to address your question, we were once a great program within the conference and one of the better and more respected in the nation. We competed for championships, and played for postseason with high expectations.

So to expect only what once was is not unreasonable.

Now - if history serves correctly, the responses to this post will be in the order of "Stands ran the program into the ground", "What are wins without discipline", "Bury was a great recruiter but sucked as a coach", "I hate Meo", and much more hyperbole and statements made despite the facts.

About covered it all..,.

[LC Dawg]

If Dan Mullen can find them in football we can find them in basketball. We only need two a year maybe less maybe more. Dan needs 10-15 every year. In the entire State of Mississippi we just need TWO basketball players per year. Recruit better. Plain and simple. For each player we've struck out on there's been 3 others leave and be good players elsewhere. Some are NBA players. We don't have to survive solely on MS but it needs to be our bread and butter first.

I agree that we don't need to lose the Mississippi recruits to other schools but I think basketball recruiting is just an entirely different animal than football recruiting. I think top high school football players in Mississippi want to play in the SEC and top high school basketball players want to play in the NBA. When they think NBA they think schools like Kentucky. The one and done rule hurts us, and the kids, because a top kid thinks he has to go to a Duke or a Kentucky to get to the NBA in a year.
I think the success of SEC football has hurt basketball. It wasn't that long ago that kids like Bear Wilson and Elijah Staley didn't even play high school football, now they're signing football scholarships.
I think if we can get just one top recruit we can change this whole mentality. I don't think the first top recruit will be Malik Newman but I hope Rick Ray gets one soon.
I really hope Coach Ray gets things going because, with no disrespect to last years baseball team, that '96 SEC tournament to Final Four run was the most exciting thing I've witnessed in MSU sports history.

[coastdoglover]

This is just a continuation of the diatribe every day on Six Pack with the same cast led by Coach 34. Stans blew it with Sidney and admitted it. However, coach is going to try and convince anybody who will listen that Ray is a better coach. The stats don't prove it and he will get 2 more years to try and prove it but I will go on record now saying we won't come close to matching the success Stans had over the 14 years and the SEC is worst now than it ever was during Stans career. Our preseason schedule was weaker than any we ever had before and we can't sniff at selling out the Hump. We now have a great practice facility which Stans had for one year. You guys rationalize all you want to but without players it isn't going to happen and until I see some, I have no confidence in even getting to.500 in the league anytime soon. We shall see who is right but one thing for sure is this, it won't be coach's last post on Stansbury, he can't go one day without the obsession, and most of us see through it.

[Intramural All-American]

This is just a continuation of the diatribe every day on Six Pack with the same cast led by Coach 34. Stans blew it with Sidney and admitted it. However, coach is going to try and convince anybody who will listen that Ray is a better coach. The stats don't prove it and he will get 2 more years to try and prove it but I will go on record now saying we won't come close to matching the success Stans had over the 14 years and the SEC is worst now than it ever was during Stans career. Our preseason schedule was weaker than any we ever had before and we can't sniff at selling out the Hump. We now have a great practice facility which Stans had for one year. You guys rationalize all you want to but without players it isn't going to happen and until I see some, I have no confidence in even getting to.500 in the league anytime soon. We shall see who is right but one thing for sure is this, it won't be coach's last post on Stansbury, he can't go one day without the obsession, and most of us see through it.

1. If you hate Coach so much, why exactly did you move over to this site? SPS is still up and going.

2. Stan's last 3 years were embarrassing. We had very talented teams, and he blew it with them. It amazes me how so many people complain about us not taking the next step in football, but they were perfectly content with remaining the status quo with Stansbury. It was time for him to go.

3. Ray may not be the answer. He may be. Give him time. If he's not, then we will try again. The constant moaning does nothing positive, because Ray is going to be our coach for at least two more years. Either support him or don't. But if you aren't going to give him the benefit of supporting the basketball team, at least give him the benefit of not bashing him every single day.

[coastdoglover]

I. I don't hate coach, just disagree with him about basketball and his obsession with Stans. I agree with him on just about everything else concerning MSU. 2. Most people were not content but also recognized that a guy who had won as many as Stans wasn't near as bad as some of you made him out to be. We are seeing now what happened and even the most astute fan, knows this team has no chance to get to post season much less the sweet sixteen which coach and his buddies said was all that counted. 3. Ray may or not be the answer but the proof is in the pudding and without the Stans players he recruited, this team would be worst than awful. I have bashed Ray very little but I will guarantee you any bashing now of Ray is miniscule compared to how Coach bashed Stans for a decade. It goes with the territory. You can't have it both ways. Bash Stans for 10 years and then say the next guy gets a pass. That dog won't hunt. If we had replaced Stans with a proven winner, who might have actually been able to keep Hood, then this discussion would not be taking place. Stricklin blew it and 2 years from now you are saying it was fine to just throw away 4 years of basketball and start over again. That is a stupid ass philosophy but heck, we did it for decades in football so I guess we can say that is the MSU way. I tend to differ, so sorry that bothers you.




1. If you hate Coach so much, why exactly did you move over to this site? SPS is still up and going.

2. Stan's last 3 years were embarrassing. We had very talented teams, and he blew it with them. It amazes me how so many people complain about us not taking the next step in football, but they were perfectly content with remaining the status quo with Stansbury. It was time for him to go.

3. Ray may not be the answer. He may be. Give him time. If he's not, then we will try again. The constant moaning does nothing positive, because Ray is going to be our coach for at least two more years. Either support him or don't. But if you aren't going to give him the benefit of supporting the basketball team, at least give him the benefit of not bashing him every single day.

[Intramural All-American]

I respect that response. The fact of the matter though is that there is no proof that ray can't turn it around. He hasn't even had a full team yet. Next year he will, and next year is when he has to start winning. Coach may have built him up before he started out, but now he is saying the same thing I just said. Year three is the true litmus test. It was not Rays fault that he was put in the position he was in. Give him a chance to to dig out of it before forsaking him. By the way the two names I really remember people wanting during the coaching search were Martin and Payne. Martin was a winner that has sucked at SC and Payne was a ridiculous name. That's the thing about coaching hires, you never know what's going to happen, but hindsight is always 20/20.

[Dawg61]

I don't think anyone really wanted Frank Martin. They were just suprised USCe got him. Might of been better for them if they didn't. That guy is certified psycho.

[Johnson85]

If Dan Mullen can find them in football we can find them in basketball. We only need two a year maybe less maybe more. Dan needs 10-15 every year. In the entire State of Mississippi we just need TWO basketball players per year. Recruit better. Plain and simple. For each player we've struck out on there's been 3 others leave and be good players elsewhere. Some are NBA players. We don't have to survive solely on MS but it needs to be our bread and butter first.

Completely different in football and basketball. You can take a good athlete, start him playing football as late as his junior or senior year of hs football, and outside of maybe qb or center, can be more or less caught up with people that have been playing their whole life by the time they're a freshman or sophomore in college without having to be a super intelligent player. In basketball, a freak athlete can still catch up, but for the most part, they're going to have to be a freak among freaks to be able to operate in two years like the ball is part of them and be highly intelligent/instinctual in order to have an overall game. You can compartmentalize the game some for most positions on the football field. In basketball, even if you want to be a defensive/rebounding specialist or a shooting specialist, you still have to understand all of the offense and understand where everybody will be on defense and be able to figure it out instantaneously.

[codeDawg]

Honestly, if we (boosters, fans, message board heroes, etc.) don't move past the infighting over who we fired and who we hired we are going to piss away a great opportunity with a good coach. Sad, sad, sad.

Everybody needs to just sack up and figure out how to move forward together.

[esplanade91]

I think we have more to offer than LSU, Bama, Ark, or A&M (facilities be damned), which aside from recent history are fringe top 25 programs pretty often. We might be in rural America but so are the Iowa schools and several other great teams... and they don't have the benefit of being RIGHT in the middle of New Orleans, Memphis, Jackson, and Birmingham.

Aside from elite talent picking schools because of the school on the jersey, I'd bet most kids pick schools based on who their teammates are going to be. It's a vicious cycle. Get a good prospect to sign, get him to ball out in year one, present him as a valuable teammate to the next year's prospects. Boom. Stans WHIFFED on everyone in retrospect but he got Stewart, Jarvis, and Bost and that's what we're going to have to do again. We need a nucleus. Stewart and Jarvis are from rural areas so I don't necessarily see us being a rural school as a negative.

I expect us to be great because I know we can be great, because we've been there fairly recently despite whatever statistic you want to throw out. We're the only SEC West team that cares about basketball. The 2010 game against UK (yeah, we lost) where I waited 7 hours in line and we took 2 NBA All-Stars to the wire is proof.

[tcdog70]

don't forget Stansbury went out and raised Money for our new Indoor practice facility that he never got to Use but 1 year. Ray has that as a plus that Stasnbury never had

[tcdog70]

I think we have more to offer than LSU, Bama, Ark, or A&M (facilities be damned), which aside from recent history are fringe top 25 programs pretty often. We might be in rural America but so are the Iowa schools and several other great teams... and they don't have the benefit of being RIGHT in the middle of New Orleans, Memphis, Jackson, and Birmingham.

Aside from elite talent picking schools because of the school on the jersey, I'd bet most kids pick schools based on who their teammates are going to be. It's a vicious cycle. Get a good prospect to sign, get him to ball out in year one, present him as a valuable teammate to the next year's prospects. Boom. Stans WHIFFED on everyone in retrospect but he got Stewart, Jarvis, and Bost and that's what we're going to have to do again. We need a nucleus. Stewart and Jarvis are from rural areas so I don't necessarily see us being a rural school as a negative.

I expect us to be great because I know we can be great, because we've been there fairly recently despite whatever statistic you want to throw out. We're the only SEC West team that cares about basketball. The 2010 game against UK (yeah, we lost) where I waited 7 hours in line and we took 2 NBA All-Stars to the wire is proof.

we were leading in that Game until they mugged Hood and he never returned for the rest of the season.

[Coach34]

. Coach may have built him up before he started out, but now he is saying the same thing I just said. Year three is the true litmus test. It was not Rays fault that he was put in the position he was in. Give him a chance to to dig out of it before forsaking him.

This all day long

I didnt advocate hiring Ray nor was I giddy about it. But I have become a fan after watching him coach the last year and a half. The guy can coach. Can he recruit? We'll see. But there is no doubt it's not his fault where the program was when he took over. And THAT is one area me and Grandpaw differ over

[Dawg61]

This all day long

I didnt advocate hiring Ray nor was I giddy about it. But I have become a fan after watching him coach the last year and a half. The guy can coach. Can he recruit? We'll see. But there is no doubt it's not his fault where the program was when he took over. And THAT is one area me and Grandpaw differ over

I think one problem Ray is having is he has conflicting roster to preferred style of play. What I mean by that is that it would seem that Ray would like to play more of the VCU up-tempo havoc kinda free flowing with an emphasis on creating turnovers style of play but he has two HUGE problems. 1) he's only using eight players 2) his players can't shoot and threes on transition is vital for VCU types. This is a huge reason why I keep stressing that Ray MUST fill his scholarships to 13 AND have athletic walk-ons (Bear, Elijah and Moore) to also add a few minutes. 15 athletes that can play FAST and HARD when they are in the game. Ray MUST find some shooters too. VCU sucks balls if they can't shoot 3s and our retarded version of VCU is not ever going to work with 8 guys that can't shoot.

I will add that I absolutely LOVE this style of play I just think Ray is mismanaging his roster to it. Half of that blame is out of his control and the other half IS his fault e.g. Applewhite, not using his last scholi 2 years in a row, failed coaching with Steele, Lewis, not getting Daniels & Ndoye qualified (I bet Calipari would get those players into school, get players to stop smoking weed, get players to want to play). I don't expect Ray to be Cal but he doesn't have to strike-out in everything either) sometimes coaching means finding a way to get your players to stay on your roster. Ray seems conflicted on being the hard-nosed type and he cuts off his nose to spite his face when he MUST MUST MUST have a FULL roster of bodies to play the style of basketball he can succeed at.

I also don't understand why he refuses to play all eleven guys. Cunningham can play PG/SG for a couple of minutes each half and Bloodman/Davis or even Sword can slide over and play PG for only a few minutes. This would allow Ready to rest and he seems to need that since he's been injured for half the games so far. Fred Thomas needs some bench time coaching too as does Sword/Roq/Colin when their decision making starts hurting the team. Moore and Wilson can be used here. Ray can still use the power of the bench when the players are being stupid. He doesn't though. He allows the bad decisions to continue by not subbing out players. What does this teach Cunningham, Moore and Wilson? That Ray has favorites and they ain't them. Better coaching is needed here. 2c

[Coach34]

other than the fact they arent very good, my guess is Moore and Wilson also dont play because they havent learned the system yet and comfortable with everything

You just dont throw them out there and say "go ball"

[esplanade91]

other than the fact they arent very good, my guess is Moore and Wilson also dont play because they havent learned the system yet and comfortable with everything

You just dont throw them out there and say "go ball"

I get what he's saying though. In limited PT Tyson has been the best behind the arc (still terrible) yet Jacoby is out there chunking up junk. And Wilson is useless at 6'6" as PF (guy is a post player) but we throw Tyson out there in situations where we need SOMEONE to rebound. Late in the UK game we were playing a white flag lineup, and in that situation I would had loved to see Wilson trying to get rebounds... Which is something he can do regardless of how much information he's been able to process. Why burn his shirt with the 6 minutes he's gotten this far if it's strictly a time-to-process issue?

[Coach34]

Wilson's never going to get meaningful minutes- he'll play even less next year when we have a full squad

[Intramural All-American]

I don't think Bear's redshirt means anything. He won't be on the basketball team for 5 years, so it would be pointless to redshirt him. I'm actually in agreeance with both of y'all, that I would like to see him get a few more minutes just to try to help on the boards. I don't agree with Moore, however.

Dawg61, how in the world can you blame "failed coaching" as the reason Steele and Lewis left? You blaming them on Ray is laughable. And I also don't think Ray has much control over getting players eligible. They will be playing next season, though, and that should help out a lot.

[Dawg61]

I don't think Bear's redshirt means anything. He won't be on the basketball team for 5 years, so it would be pointless to redshirt him. I'm actually in agreeance with both of y'all, that I would like to see him get a few more minutes just to try to help on the boards. I don't agree with Moore, however.

Dawg61, how in the world can you blame "failed coaching" as the reason Steele and Lewis left? You blaming them on Ray is laughable. And I also don't think Ray has much control over getting players eligible. They will be playing next season, though, and that should help out a lot.

It's not so much that it's failed coaching so maybe poor choice of words but more like Ray didn't really break his back to keep Kristers, SSmith, Steele, Lewis, or figure out how to get Ndoye and Daniels eligible in time. If a coach really wanted these players he'd find a way around the system or something. I mean Marshall Henderson has failed multiple cocaine tests and he's still chucking up threes. It might be more of an MSU problem than a Ray problem but let's not pick the first two years of an already decimated roster to be kicking off players left and right when there has to be some possible way to keep them and get value from their already spent scholarships. It just really really hurts a team that's entire philosophy is around playing hard to be running with anything less than a full deck. The eight players he plays become worse by the end of each game because they are spent. 3 subs not being used would make all eight guys better players. Don't focus on the 3 being less talented understand they make the 8 better. Play all 11 guys.

[Intramural All-American]

I guess one of our main points of contention, is I'm glad ray ran off the players that he did. The players that stansbury had were the reason we were in the position we were in. Ray had to have guys that bought into his system. You don't just keep a guy for numbers purposes who is undermining your authority. They had to go. It's the same thing Cohen did. It's also the same thing Charlie Strong does.

[Dawg61]

Agree to disagree. I'll never believe it's best for the team to pull one guy off the tug-o-war line. It's not a classroom. Find other ways to get that player right.

[Coach34]

I guess one of our main points of contention, is I'm glad ray ran off the players that he did. The players that stansbury had were the reason we were in the position we were in. Ray had to have guys that bought into his system. You don't just keep a guy for numbers purposes who is undermining your authority. They had to go. It's the same thing Cohen did. It's also the same thing Charlie Strong does.

This 100%....any coach worth a shit does this

[Coach34]

Agree to disagree. I'll never believe it's best for the team to pull one guy off the tug-o-war line. It's not a classroom. Find other ways to get that player right.

The players were given multiple chances. It wasnt one failed test. But after 3 failed tests, its obvious they arent going to stop. When you are told- "If you fail another test- you are gone"- and you fail another test...there's no blaming the coach at that point.

[Brad Stevens]

It's not so much that it's failed coaching so maybe poor choice of words but more like Ray didn't really break his back to keep Kristers, SSmith, Steele, Lewis, or figure out how to get Ndoye and Daniels eligible in time. If a coach really wanted these players he'd find a way around the system or something. I mean Marshall Henderson has failed multiple cocaine tests and he's still chucking up threes. It might be more of an MSU problem than a Ray problem but let's not pick the first two years of an already decimated roster to be kicking off players left and right when there has to be some possible way to keep them and get value from their already spent scholarships. It just really really hurts a team that's entire philosophy is around playing hard to be running with anything less than a full deck. The eight players he plays become worse by the end of each game because they are spent. 3 subs not being used would make all eight guys better players. Don't focus on the 3 being less talented understand they make the 8 better. Play all 11 guys.

This, in a nutshell, describes our differences. Your philosophy = keep all available players regardless of attitude, chemistry, submission to authority, consequences, etc. Any standard at all is too high a standard in your mind. The fact you identify that kicking off/releasing guys who are selfish for various reasons as a "problem" should speak for itself. I agree we need more bodies, but I do not agree you sacrifice your entire team (by keeping cancers) just to have more bodies. Time will tell if he will have talent, but at least he is building a tight-knit lockerroom with less "ME" guys.

[Dawg61]

This, in a nutshell, describes our differences. Your philosophy = keep all available players regardless of attitude, chemistry, submission to authority, consequences, etc. Any standard at all is too high a standard in your mind. The fact you identify that kicking off/releasing guys who are selfish for various reasons as a "problem" should speak for itself. I agree we need more bodies, but I do not agree you sacrifice your entire team (by keeping cancers) just to have more bodies. Time will tell if he will have talent, but at least he is building a tight-knit lockerroom with less "ME" guys.

No my philosophy is to exhaust all measures first before going into battle with one less guy and in this case more than one less guy. When you know you're short handed and you still kick off a player before exhausting all measures than you're being selfish and you're knowingly accepting defeat. Just my opinion.

[Intramural All-American]

What is exhausting all measures? How do you know how much was done? How many chances do guys get?

[Dawg61]

What is exhausting all measures? How do you know how much was done? How many chances do guys get?

Use your imagination. I'm sure Ray's hands were tied on the failed drug tests thing but again I think that's on MSU to help somehow. Oh well **** it. We can argue this all day. Hail State it's tip time.

[Coach34]

Use your imagination. I'm sure Ray's hands were tied on the failed drug tests thing but again I think that's on MSU to help somehow. Oh well **** it. We can argue this all day. Hail State it's tip time.

This is where we differ- because I dont want to just kick off players. BUT:

When they tell you "If you fail another test we are going to dismiss you" and you fail another test- **** you. Get the **** out. You cant win with people like that

[Dawg61]

This is where we differ- because I dont want to just kick off players. BUT:

When they tell you "If you fail another test we are going to dismiss you" and you fail another test- **** you. Get the **** out. You cant win with people like that

Normally I'm right there with you. I'd get them a personal babysitter first, line up their replacements and then kick them. Replacements being the key word here. I get Ray wasn't awarded that opportunity it seems by MSU. In my opinion the players should of all gotten a fresh clean slate for sticking around. Ray got dealt two players with two strikes against them already. Maybe just a semester suspension since it was warning, warning, death. Maybe try warning, warning, semester suspension, death or again wipe everyone's slate clean and start fresh. Oh well what's done is done. Kristers and SSmith weren't Bowers and Roberts either.