And so it begins- Northwestern football players trying to unionize

[Coach34]

for better medical and concussion benefits....OTL reports

[starkvegasdawg]

This is a pretty simple fix. They form a union and their scholarship gets yanked and all that nice sugar on the side from the boosters goes the way of the dodo. Also, have it where scholarship athletes have their tuition and expenses paid at the end of the semester instead of the first so if they do something stupid and get their scholly yanked then they are on the hook for that semester.

[BulldogDX55]

This is a pretty simple fix. They form a union and their scholarship gets yanked and all that nice sugar on the side from the boosters goes the way of the dodo. Also, have it where scholarship athletes have their tuition and expenses paid at the end of the semester instead of the first so if they do something stupid and get their scholly yanked then they are on the hook for that semester.

Yes, because the boosters would love it if they lost the entire football team for the year and the whole football program became crippled for a decade plus.

Also, your second idea is really, really dumb. Besides the fact that all schools have late charges if you dont pay your tuition at the earliest possible time, there is the fact that anything could happen during the season that could cause a scholarship to be dropped, and leaving an out of state student on the hook for that insane amount of money is cruel.

[FlabLoser]

More power to 'em. Unionize, lose the ship. A team full of walk-ons with free healthcare!

[dawgs]

lulz at pulling their scholarships. good luck with that. i'm sure northwestern doesn't want to field a football team for the foreseeable future. if that happened, it could also lead to a mass strike by players throughout CFB by making the northwestern players a martyr. if this is happening at 1 major university, it's probably on the verge of happening at multiple major universities.

face it, CFB hasn't been the quaint amateur sport so many want it to be in decades. these kids make their universities millions and combined make the machine that is CFB billions every year. they deserve to fight for some rights, whether it's selling their likeness, getting paid a stipend, or getting post-collegiate career healthcare for injuries suffered playing CFB, or whatever.

[slickdawg]

Well, how this will work out in the business world:

Scholarships yanked
Union salary rates established, likely based on class (FR/SO/JR/SR)
Players must pay tuition, books and "total cost of attendance" from their salary
Since its salary, they get to pay income taxes on it

Then it gets really ugly.

[starkvegasdawg]

Yes, because the boosters would love it if they lost the entire football team for the year and the whole football program became crippled for a decade plus.

Also, your second idea is really, really dumb. Besides the fact that all schools have late charges if you dont pay your tuition at the earliest possible time, there is the fact that anything could happen during the season that could cause a scholarship to be dropped, and leaving an out of state student on the hook for that insane amount of money is cruel.

No, the boosters would not like it. And neither would be fans. But, how happy you think they are going to be if they don't get something they want and decide to strike? Sooner or later it would happen. They would decide there aren't enough play stations in the player lounge or practice is too long or too hard, they want a larger stipend. Pick a topic. Admin tells them to get over it. Day of the game they decide to go on strike.

As for my second idea. I know the school wants its money up front but I bet for the 85 or so football players on scholly it would not bankrupt the school to wait until the end of the semester. I didn't say they could lose their scholly for anything. They would only lose it for unionizing. Anything else is from long established rules. I'm not advocating a player lose his scholarship over anything else.

If the players knew those two things would happen if they unionized, I am betting it would give enough of them pause before they voted to go through with it. And if they did and what I mentioned happened, then I bet the union disbands pretty quickly and we are back to business as usual.

[codeDawg]

There is only one argument being made against allowing players having a say in what their compensation is: I like CFB the way it is and if players are allowed to negotiate it will change. If you think the current system is fair, you need to sit down and think about things from a truly talented athlete's perspective for a little while.

[esplanade91]

I think the perception that college football players (because football players seem to be the focus) don't get anything for their hard work is a bunch of bull. I agree that just like everything else the system needs to reflect the year 2014 but most of the people I hear talking about how football players need more aren't even aware that they already do get a stipend, albeit a shitty one... but they get one. ~$100 a week.

I just finished school, and I can tell you I was living off less than $100 a week... and I paid for my apartment... and I paid for books... and I paid tuition. It sucked.

I realize it's a lot easier to live off what's in place in Starkville, MS than Tallahassee or LA or really anywhere, so I'm 110% behind upping the ante... I just want OTL and the rest of them giving me this sob story to cool their jets. Sure universities make millions off their "employees"... I sell $10k worth of product a day and make peanuts in comparison. It's not just limited to universities making money off of amateur athletes. It's America. **** you, Arian Foster.

[codeDawg]

I think the perception that college football players (because football players seem to be the focus) don't get anything for their hard work is a bunch of bull. I agree that just like everything else the system needs to reflect the year 2014 but most of the people I hear talking about how football players need more aren't even aware that they already do get a stipend, albeit a shitty one... but they get one. ~$100 a week.

I just finished school, and I can tell you I was living off less than $100 a week... and I paid for my apartment... and I paid for books... and I paid tuition. It sucked.

I realize it's a lot easier to live off what's in place in Starkville, MS than Tallahassee or LA or really anywhere, so I'm 110% behind upping the ante... I just want OTL and the rest of them giving me this sob story to cool their jets. Sure universities make millions off their "employees"... I sell $10k worth of product a day and make peanuts in comparison. It's not just limited to universities making money off of amateur athletes. It's America. **** you, Arian Foster.

This is exactly the perception that needs to be corrected. It's not about what players need to get by. It's about allowing people to get fair market value for their performance. Right now the individual has no way to negotiate based on the value they bring because the schools are all one big cartel dictating the market.

Imagine if you were a really great engineer. You just graduated and went to get a job, but all the places for you to do engineering got together and said $20K/year is enough for an engineer to live on. On top of that, the lower tier engineer gets $20K. The middle guy, $20K. The guy that just invented the next big thing: $20K.

How it works in the real world is you get to interview around and negotiate a salary based on what you think you are worth. It doesn't matter if your company makes $10's of K's on what you do. They pay you what the market is bearing for your skills at your position. If they thought your skills would be difficult to replace and there was a reasonable chance someone else would pay you more, they would pay you more. That's how the free market works.

Athletes at the college level do not have that choice right now. Compensation is set across the board and reasonable alternatives do not exist.

[esplanade91]

And that's all fine and dandy, but if you go to work for an engineering firm and get paid $60,000 right out of college and then end up being terrible you'll be fired. Are you saying we should fire guys like Templeton Hardy? Robert Elliot? The list goes on and on.

Maybe we should give partial scholarships to 2*'s with no other offers because their market value is so low.

That's just football... drag the conversation to sports that make little or no money. Should we charge track athletes for going to MSU because they cost us money? Since MSU basketball is among the worst it's ever been, do we lower their scholarships?

It's not fair, I agree... but it's as fair as it's going to be. Life isn't fair, and that's not any less true as far as employment. I ate ramen 5 nights a week too. I'd venture to say over 1/2 of traditional American students struggle, so maybe the issue here is with higher education... not NCAA athletics. Again, I think the #'s should be updated... but there's not a perfect system.

At the end of the day the NCAA doesn't exist to be a farm system for professional sports in America. It exists to allow students a way to turn their athletic ability into a college diploma. It does that. The people who struggle through college do it because there isn't anything in the world more valuable than a college degree. Not because they're guaranteed the league minimum of $400,000 in the NFL as soon as they're 3 years removed from high school in some form or fashion.

[codeDawg]

And that's all fine and dandy, but if you go to work for an engineering firm and get paid $60,000 right out of college and then end up being terrible you'll be fired. Are you saying we should fire guys like Templeton Hardy? Robert Elliot? The list goes on and on.


Don't we "process" people already? What's wrong with letting go under performers if they are being compensated to perform?



That's just football... drag the conversation to sports that make little or no money. Should we charge track athletes for going to MSU because they cost us money? Since MSU basketball is among the worst it's ever been, do we lower their scholarships?


That's a great question. Non-revenue sports are why we have scholarship funds. If a school doesn't want to support track, they shouldn't. If they do, they should.



It's not fair, I agree... but it's as fair as it's going to be. Life isn't fair, and that's not any less true as far as employment. I ate ramen 5 nights a week too. I'd venture to say over 1/2 of traditional American students struggle, so maybe the issue here is with higher education... not NCAA athletics. Again, I think the #'s should be updated... but there's not a perfect system.

Again, what does your college experience have to do with anything? I'm not talking about giving hand-outs to poor people. That's a completely separate issue. I'm talking about allowing American citizens the right to negotiate against a cartel.

So to summarize, your opposition is:
1. We might have to hold people accountable (fine by me)
2. Schools may have to decide if they want to support non-revenue sports (fine by me, they should anyway)
3. You were poor in college so other people should be too (huh?)

[esplanade91]

3. My point is that the majority of college students are poor, and while I wasn't a college athlete... I didn't get 1/2 the things even partial scholarship athletes got... so this media blitz on how college athletes are poor and living like 2nd rate citizens is BS. It's sensational journalism. Broadcast a story about some football players had to beg a coach to buy them hamburgers because they were too poor to buy them.... get a billion views. I realize I wasn't an athlete, but I didn't get a full scholarship with the only requirement being that I hold a 2.5 GPA.

You can't compare this to fair market employment because it's not fair market. It's "here's a full ride to get a college education that will eventually turn into money and in return I need you to show up for practice and make a C average in all of your classes"... the back-ups who never see the field get the same thing, and all they have to do is try. There is a full-time dentist who works in the new football facility whose only job is to work on the teeth of our football players. When does it stop?

[dawgs]

And that's all fine and dandy, but if you go to work for an engineering firm and get paid $60,000 right out of college and then end up being terrible you'll be fired. Are you saying we should fire guys like Templeton Hardy? Robert Elliot? The list goes on and on.


we already do "fire" guys. it's called processing.

[dawgs]

i got a full ride plus some to msu. i picked up a $2K-$3K check every semester leftover after tuition since i lived off campus after my FR year. i also worked part time to have a little more spending money. my parents were also able to give me a little extra money/buy me clothes/take me out to eat/etc. i could have co-op'd (didn't but probably should have). most of these players get that check back if they live off campus, but after that, they don't have the time to work part time, not if they want to keep their scholarship and not get processed. they don't have realistic chances to co-op since they would be skipping spring practices or summer workouts, things that coaches aren't going to be too happy about and might lead to a processing. and many of them don't have parents with the means to buy them clothes or kick them some extra money for gas or whatever.

i'm not saying there aren't other kids out there in worse situations, but those kids also aren't bringing the $$ and recognition to the school that football players are. and a low income genius student will have plenty of scholarship $$, plenty of research work chances with the department, and co-op opportunities and the freedom to pursue them without potentially costing themselves their scholarship.

[Quaoarsking]

Regardless of whether the free ride at college is an appropriate payment for the hours worked for college football players (if you do the math, it's well below minimum wage), it's really difficult to justify giving the players such little when they generate so much revenue for their schools.

If I were directly responsible for generating millions of dollars for my company and they in turn paid me only $13,000 annually (or whatever the full cost of attendance is -- more for academically elite schools), I'd be pretty pissed off too.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Employees form unions... students do not meet the definition of "employee". End of story.

Union: An association, combination, or organization of employees who band together to secure favorable wages, improved working conditions, and better work hours, and to resolve grievances against employers.

[dawgs]

Employees form unions... students do not meet the definition of "employee". End of story.

Union: An association, combination, or organization of employees who band together to secure favorable wages, improved working conditions, and better work hours, and to resolve grievances against employers.

you obviously are missing the point. they'll end up going to court over whether they can form a union and the court will decide if they should be considered employees. that's the whole point. they aren't claiming that they are "employees" under the current letter of the law, they are trying to change the current letter of the law.

[Dog]

I don't know how a school could provide football players with extra benefits and still comply with Title IX. The women's basketball, soccer, and volley ball teams would be entitled to the same amount of benefits/stipends/etc as the football team. The football teams make a lot of money for their schools, but the players can't legally receive extra benefits from the school. It's not an NCAA rule. It's a federal civil rights law. As long as the team or club is operating under government money female athletes are entitled to benefits equal to male athletes.

[Thick]

Employees form unions... students do not meet the definition of "employee". End of story.

Union: An association, combination, or organization of employees who band together to secure favorable wages, improved working conditions, and better work hours, and to resolve grievances against employers.

This is the NCAA's rebuttal. I think it's crazy, because a lot of these players probably also had concussions in high school as well, but did not know it. The appropriate measures are now being taken to make sure that the players are being monitored post concussion and the proper precautions are being taken even if there is a sniff of a possible event.

[Thick]

And if they are going to pay the players more then what they are currently getting, well, then I want to be paid reparations from my time at MSU too. There would probably be a group of jackasses that would file that in court. Leave the game and the system alone before we wind up ruining the whole damn thing.

[Martianlander]

I don't know how a school could provide football players with extra benefits and still comply with Title IX. The women's basketball, soccer, and volley ball teams would be entitled to the same amount of benefits/stipends/etc as the football team. The football teams make a lot of money for their schools, but the players can't legally receive extra benefits from the school. It's not an NCAA rule. It's a federal civil rights law. As long as the team or club is operating under government money female athletes are entitled to benefits equal to male athletes.
This documents the biggest problem the schools would face with this. From a practical standpoint if this came about you would see a lot of smaller schools drop sports completely and give even fewer high school kids a chance to compete at some level in college.

[Thick]

The cost for all of this will trickle down to the consumer, and that might begin to effect attendance and ticket sales. There are only a handful of players per team that are used in advertising, so of course, they would be paid more but then the other 80 players would also get there fair share. I think these guys are also asking for more scholarships if I'm not mistaken. Who's going to pay or collect these union fees? A lot to think about.

[Coach34]

the BCS schools are already paving the way with the NCAA's help to pay football players and maybe other athletes. Lots of concern out there with the lower D-1 schools and how the divide could widen. I'm not sure what the big schools plan is- but they are posturing to get it done already.

We should see alot of change in the next 5 years

[codeDawg]

the BCS schools are already paving the way with the NCAA's help to pay football players and maybe other athletes. Lots of concern out there with the lower D-1 schools and how the divide could widen. I'm not sure what the big schools plan is- but they are posturing to get it done already.

We should see alot of change in the next 5 years

This is exactly right. The big conferences already have permission to start setting their own rules separate from the smaller schools. This would, in theory, provide some of the options kids don't have right now. Want to make some money, but have more expected of you athletically, go to the big school. Want to be a true amateur student athlete? You have another tier of schools to choose from.

The question is have they moved fast enough to prevent the athletes from organizing and negotiating as a group? This is how all labor unions begin. A group is unhappy with the conditions provided and use that as rally to organize. How to companies respond? They try to appease the group by addressing their concerns and convince them that organization is not in their best interest.

In the end it would be better for everybody if the schools would recognize the market forces around them and react fairly. The NCAA has not been able to do that up to this point. I also don't trust them to be able to negotiate with a player's union effectively. In the end, if CFB goes to shit, the NCAA is the problem for not preventing or managing the situation around them.

[smootness]

This whole thing is dumb, and it's hilarious to me that Northwestern players are the ones starting it.

First, the NCAA is a non-profit, as are the schools. There aren't a bunch of people striking it rich off these kids. The money funnels back into the schools. It is nothing like a for-profit business with owners, so any comparison is moot.

Second, football doesn't bring in nearly as much as some seem to believe it does. I guarantee you that any 'salary' would be far less than these players expect. You will start seeing some schools dropping athletics altogether once these players are determined to be employees because any benefit/funding the schools had is now gone.

Third, ok, let's take this to its logical end. You Northwestern players no longer have a scholarship, and you now must meet the entrance requirements everyone else has. So good luck getting into Northwestern. If you do, you now have to pay full tuition out of that salary. You also have to pay taxes, rent, and all the other things you currently take for granted.

A Northwestern education, which some of these players would have absolutely no chance to obtain outside of playing football, is far more valuable than any short-term salary you may receive while in school.

[codeDawg]

There aren't a bunch of people striking it rich off these kids.

Huh? Tons of people are striking it rich or at least making solid livings off of these kids from the coaches to the media.


Second, football doesn't bring in nearly as much as some seem to believe it does. I guarantee you that any 'salary' would be far less than these players expect. You will start seeing some schools dropping athletics altogether once these players are determined to be employees because any benefit/funding the schools had is now gone.


The point isn't what the compensation is, it's the right to negotiate for it. Actually, if you take a look at what NW are asking for, it isn't compensation. It's protections that mostly involve medical issues. Compensation will inevitably come up, but the issue is the right to negotiate, not the end result. The economics of the situation will determine the end result.


Third, ok, let's take this to its logical end. You Northwestern players no longer have a scholarship, and you now must meet the entrance requirements everyone else has. So good luck getting into Northwestern. If you do, you now have to pay full tuition out of that salary. You also have to pay taxes, rent, and all the other things you currently take for granted.

A Northwestern education, which some of these players would have absolutely no chance to obtain outside of playing football, is far more valuable than any short-term salary you may receive while in school.

I don't think anyone has argued taking away scholarships. Why wouldn't that just continue to be part of the compensation plan?

[chef dixon]

If you don't like the idea of going to college to play football and get a free education, meals, and housing at the same time, then no one is forcing you to do it. Its kinda the standard for most careers in this country that you need to go to school before you can turn professional, so I don't see why football should get special treatment. If you don't like the system in place, don't play college football. Just sit out a couple years and go pro if you so choose. As for the athletes that won't be playing professional sports, you better damn sure take that free education offered. The whole argument about football making so much money for the university is mediocre, and not sure how you would judge which players deserve more credit for the income. Research grants mostly driven by graduate students eating bread crumbs for dinner, bring in tons of money to universities but there isn't as much complaint from them. But lets not forget coaches and commissioners make so much money off the sport... well guess what? They went to school and paid their dues to get to that point.

I realize that many players come from unfortunate backgrounds, but its not like D-1 football players aren't treated well. In fact, it seems like a pretty sweet deal to me if I came from very little. Anyone who's been to college should be able to recognize that.

I guess this rant kind of isn't related to NW players and the medical claims, but I already typed it.

[codeDawg]

If you don't like the idea of going to college to play football and get a free education, meals, and housing at the same time, then no one is forcing you to do it. Its kinda the standard for most careers in this country that you need to go to school before you can turn professional, so I don't see why football should get special treatment. If you don't like the system in place, don't play college football. Just sit out a couple years and go pro if you so choose. As for the athletes that won't be playing professional sports, you better damn sure take that free education offered. The whole argument about football making so much money for the university is mediocre, and not sure how you would judge which players deserve more credit for the income. Research grants mostly driven by graduate students eating bread crumbs for dinner, bring in tons of money to universities but there isn't as much complaint from them. But lets not forget coaches and commissioners make so much money off the sport... well guess what? They went to school and paid their dues to get to that point.

I realize that many players come from unfortunate backgrounds, but its not like D-1 football players aren't treated well. In fact, it seems like a pretty sweet deal to me if I came from very little. Anyone who's been to college should be able to recognize that.

I guess this rant kind of isn't related to NW players and the medical claims, but I already typed it.

I think you are confusing issues. The issue isn't what they get. The issue is that they don't have a say in what they get or don't get. The NCAA passes down restrictions on everything from compensation to medical benefits, but the players have no say in it. It's fine for one institution to say, "this is what we offer", but it's a different situation when the entire market creates a cartel to control it. The players deserve a place at the table. Market forces will work out the rest.

[dawgs]

I think you are confusing issues. The issue isn't what they get. The issue is that they don't have a say in what they get or don't get. The NCAA passes down restrictions on everything from compensation to medical benefits, but the players have no say in it. It's fine for one institution to say, "this is what we offer", but it's a different situation when the entire market creates a cartel to control it. The players deserve a place at the table. Market forces will work out the rest.

at least one other person gets it and doesn't just freak out.

[Hotdawg66]

I can understand athletes from the past looking for help in regards to concussions and other issues related to blows to the head. Not a lot was known and I can see them being taken care of. Current athletes have no excuse to not know the risks they are taking. That's goes to all levels of football; pewees to the pros. The ones with NFL aspirations won't care; "Got to risk it to get the biscuit" so to speak. As for the amount of money I have always felt that we as a nation have way overpaid people to play a game. Same for actors and actresses. D-1 football players are on a full ride; have a roof over their head, 3 plus square meals a day, tuition, books, clothing, etc... They have no place to poor mouth that I either eat or I pay the rent. That's BS. In most cases they can't joins the frats, drive fancy cars, but there is money available to go out and do things. I can see something put in place to cover long term health issues for major injuries. The problem is if my sone gets hurt playing high school football should he be able to go after the local school board down the road for the same issues? How about the local peewee league?

[dawgs]

if fans are willing to pay $10 for a movie ticket or whatever is charged for a sporting event, then athletes are merely being paid what their market value dictates. do you not think lebron james is worth $20+M/year? sure he plays a game, but he makes the miami heat a lot more than $20M/year. same story with say peyton manning. he makes the broncos more than they pay him.

as for current players, they understand there is a concussion risk, and that's part of wanting to be able to have a say in how concussions are handled. they don't want the NCAA to just hand down a decision, they want a chance to be able to see the findings and work with the NCAA and the schools to create a safer environment, whether it's providing long term healthcare for football players, requiring all programs to use state of the art helmets like the special ones worn by a few NFL players, like aaron rodgers, that are more expensive, but better limit the risk of concussion. there's a whole host of things that CFB players deserve to have an opportunity to talk about and negotiate with schools and the NCAA that don't involve just "pay me money".

[Hotdawg66]

Like I said I feel like we as a nation have lost our minds on what we are willing to pay to go to a game or movie. I coach football and live the game but I don't think any players should make $20 mil a year to play a game. Anyway that another conversation.
I along with most southerners feel that there is a negative connotation with unions. I think there is a way to get this done without a union. If they go that way then I see the NCAA and schools going the route of the federal govt when dealing with the federal civil service union. You can negotiate your contracts, file grievances but you cannot strike or you will be terminated.

[dawgs]

I along with most southerners feel that there is a negative connotation with unions.

you should research all the labor laws we have in place that are there because of unions and the stagnated and in some cases diminishing pay of the middle and working classes as unions have declined in power and numbers, while high level management pay has skyrocketed and corporate profits are at all-time highs. meanwhile the productivity levels fo the middle and working class are higher than ever.

::fights the urge to go on a longer political rant::