Matt Balis leaving

[bully99]

Connecticut bound

[maroonmania]

Pitiful to lose an assistant football coach to freakin' Connecticut. I don't see how Mullen and our administration can't see the importance of getting our assistants pay up to SEC standards. S&C coach is a very important guy for us.

[Barking 13]

say it ain't so! after we built him the Taj Mahal of training facilities, he bolts? And I thought he was CDM's boy...

[Irondawg]

i have to hope it wasn't about money but who knows

[maroonmania]

say it ain't so! after we built him the Taj Mahal of training facilities, he bolts? And I thought he was CDM's boy...

Exactly, Mullen has always said that Balis was the FIRST guy he contacted to bring on once getting the MSU HC job.

[Coach34]

He better be getting double what we pay him because the cost of living in Connecticut is double what Starkville is

[CJDAWG85]

You have to be kidding... UCONN???

[DawgInMemphis]

You have to be kidding... UCONN???

Is that close to family for him? Not everyone is motivated by money or the "prestige" of their job, for lack of a better term.

[engie]

This is frigging ridiculous to be losing assistants to UCONN. REGARDLESS.

Pay the damn assistants Strick.

[CJDAWG85]

Pay the damn assistants Strick.

THIS

[Coach34]

It may not have been about money at all- cool the jets guys

[BeastMan]

I think he went to school with the new coach up there. That said, pay our assistants! Another thing, Balis was really good but this honestly isn't that bid a deal besides the fact that we're in offseason now. A quality replacement will be found. Strength coaches are overhyped a bit IMO. Mullen can pick a guy that uses virtually the same program Balis used or he can hire a guy to run what they're already doing. Some freshness to our offseason workouts is a good thing

[FlabLoser]

May not have been about money.

A fire might not have been started by that kid over there who was playing with matches. Possible. But let's fix the problem anyway.

[FlabLoser]

I think he went to school with the new coach up there. That said, pay our assistants! Another thing, Balis was really good but this honestly isn't that bid a deal besides the fact that we're in offseason now. A quality replacement will be found. Strength coaches are overhyped a bit IMO. Mullen can pick a guy that uses virtually the same program Balis used or he can hire a guy to run what they're already doing. Some freshness to our offseason workouts is a good thing

As much as I'd like to keep Balis, I have always found it strange why people think S&C is such a magical thing. Skill in S&C coaching is a hell of a lot more replaceable than say a HC, DC, or OC.

[War Machine Dawg]

****. Just....****. There's no excuse for this bullshit. NO SEC school should lose an assistant coach to UCONN. Period.

Balis leaving is a HUGE hit. As MM pointed out, Mullen has said numerous times Balis was the first guy he brought on when he took the job. He stressed the importance of the S&C Coach because of how much more time he spends with the players versus the rest of the coaching staff. (Ridiculous NCAA rules, but that's another discussion.)

If we lost Balis, you can be damn sure that Collins is looking around, too. Don't be surprised if we see him jump for more money in the next few weeks.

Pay the damn assistants, Strick. We ain't "po' ol' Em Ess Yoo" any more. If you're serious about big boy football, then it's time to cough up the cash. Otherwise let's move to the American Conference or whatever the hell the Big East is calling itself now and dominate the fools there.

[Coach34]

a good S&C coach is one that is a good motivator. There are no magical workouts- all these guys know how to make people bigger, stronger, and faster. It's motivation to keep working hard in the weightroom

[Raytoraid83]

Could be a blessing in disguise. Maybe this will motivate Stricklin to up Collins salary.

[smootness]

Well, this sucks.

We need to hear why he left. It may be that he had a prior relationship with the coach there, as was the only reason he took the State job over Virginia, where he had been.

If it had anything at all to do with money, that is inexcusable.

If it didn't, it stinks, but it happens. S&C coaches rarely stay at the same school even as long as Balis has been here. I definitely wish we could keep him longer, but the good thing is that Mullen knows how important S&C is and will make sure he makes the right hire there.

It definitely stinks, but this does not at all mean anything about Collins or any other coaches. Good grief, guys. Let's just see what happens and how this plays out. Just because Mullen called him the best S&C coach in the country doesn't make it so. You can definitely find guys who do a similar job to Balis, now it's about making sure you do find that guy and bring him in.

[BeastMan]

a good S&C coach is one that is a good motivator. There are no magical workouts- all these guys know how to make people bigger, stronger, and faster. It's motivation to keep working hard in the weightroom

Bingo. We'll bring a new guy in, new energy will develop. Pictures of players with there shirts off will surface in the summer and people would make a big deal. We could hire John Talty and by august everyone would be talking about how Talty Made we were.

[maroonmania]

May not have been about money.

A fire might not have been started by that kid over there who was playing with matches. Possible. But let's fix the problem anyway.

Exactly, whether this was about money or not we aren't paying our football staff competitively for an SEC school. I mean, even if this WAS about money nobody is likely to come out and say that.

[smootness]

Bingo. We'll bring a new guy in, new energy will develop. Pictures of players with there shirts off will surface in the summer and people would make a big deal. We could hire John Talty and by august everyone would be talking about how Talty Made we were.

There definitely is a skill to motivating, and some are far better at it than others. I truly believe Balis is one of the best there is in this regard, but it doesn't mean we can't find someone comparable. I hope Mullen already has some ideas.

[Eric Nies Grind Time]

Well, this sucks.

We need to hear why he left. It may be that he had a prior relationship with the coach there, as was the only reason he took the State job over Virginia, where he had been.

If it had anything at all to do with money, that is inexcusable.

If it didn't, it stinks, but it happens. S&C coaches rarely stay at the same school even as long as Balis has been here. I definitely wish we could keep him longer, but the good thing is that Mullen knows how important S&C is and will make sure he makes the right hire there.

It definitely stinks, but this does not at all mean anything about Collins or any other coaches. Good grief, guys. Let's just see what happens and how this plays out. Just because Mullen called him the best S&C coach in the country doesn't make it so. You can definitely find guys who do a similar job to Balis, now it's about making sure you do find that guy and bring him in.

Balis and Diaco were both at Virginia together.

[#660000]

Kevin Yoxall?

[smootness]

Exactly, whether this was about money or not we aren't paying our football staff competitively for an SEC school. I mean, even if this WAS about money nobody is likely to come out and say that.

We'll find out what his new salary is, though. Had he left for another SEC school, money could be a factor. The fact that it's UConn tells me it probably wasn't. I guarantee you that Mullen would have lobbied as hard as possible for more money if that had been the main factor, and there's no way Stricklin would have refused to increase his salary if Mullen had told him it was that important.

[Dawgtini]

Three points:
(1) Strick tweeted out this week that we have not had an assistant leave MSU due solely for more money since Mullenz has been here,
(2) Pete Roussel stated on some show yesterday or today that he felt certain we would hear about a new contract for Collins "any day", and
(3) Mullen hand picked Balis and he will hand pick someone just as good or better.

[defiantdog]

I'm not sure even Mullen saw this one coming.... very odd. I don't know if I'm more mad about him leaving or the fact that Matthew Stevens broke the story....

[ShotgunDawg]

I just don't see this as a big deal, and doubt it had anything to do with money. The guy has been here 5 years, and perhaps Mullen even felt it was time for a change.

Who knows, but I doubt we lose a game next year because of who the S&C coach is.

It's not like we aren't going to work out anymore. Sometimes a new message is needed.

[defiantdog]

I just don't see this as a big deal, and doubt it had anything to do with money. The guy has been here 5 years, and perhaps Mullen even felt it was time for a change.

Who knows, but I doubt we lose a game next year because of who the S&C coach is.

It's not like we aren't going to work out anymore. Sometimes a new message is needed.

Completely agree.... I do hate that he's leaving because I think he was a great motivator to the guys, but we shouldn't have a problem bringing in a standout S&C Coach especially with our facilities.

[Goat Holder]

Who cares, we had like 34 season ending injuries last year

[FISHDAWG]

I kinda hope it's about money and not something that has yet to hit the news media

[maroonmania]

Three points:
(1) Strick tweeted out this week that we have not had an assistant leave MSU due solely for more money since Mullenz has been here,
(2) Pete Roussel stated on some show yesterday or today that he felt certain we would hear about a new contract for Collins "any day", and
(3) Mullen hand picked Balis and he will hand pick someone just as good or better.

Well, with all due respect to Strick, we have ABSOLUTELY had at least one assistant leave primarily due to money. Diaz went to Texas for nearly triple his salary (~280K to 750K). Now obviously with the prestige of Texas he may have gone for the same money so the qualifying statement of "solely" for money I guess he can get away with but my issue is with us being solely REACTIVE. We KNOW we are at the very bottom of the pay scale in the SEC for assistants so are we just going to wait until we get an assistant with an offer to leave for another league job before we pay him the going wage? Better to get out in front and pay a little more competitively to start with. Nobody says we have to pay what the TOP of the SEC pays but heck OM, for example, pays Wommack over double what we pay Collins.

[Todd4State]

Well, with all due respect to Strick, we have ABSOLUTELY had at least one assistant leave primarily due to money. Diaz went to Texas for nearly triple his salary (~280K to 750K). Now obviously with the prestige of Texas he may have gone for the same money so the qualifying statement of "solely" for money I guess he can get away with but my issue is with us being solely REACTIVE. We KNOW we are at the very bottom of the pay scale in the SEC for assistants so are we just going to wait until we get an assistant with an offer to leave for another league job before we pay him the going wage? Better to get out in front and pay a little more competitively to start with. Nobody says we have to pay what the TOP of the SEC pays but heck OM, for example, pays Wommack over double what we pay Collins.

Stricklin tweeted the other day that we have never lost an assistant because of money, and when someone brought up Manny Diaz, he said it wasn't entirely a money decision and also that he (Scott) wasn't involved in that move.

[bully99]

Coach is right, the biggest thing the s and c Coach brings is motivation.
The people claiming it's about money don't know. Connecticut isn't exactly the little people of the poor. It's the wealthiest state in the country. They have plenty of money. Could have been a family thing.

[TopDog58]

What's Mike Grant doing these days? Wouldn't hurt to have our big uglies flipping some tires and tossing cow patties once again!

[Dawgfan77]

I hope and it would be Mullen like that we don't just promote from within

[Dawgfan77]

Hell to the no. Grants time has passed get me the guy at ULL or somene else

[Barking 13]

Could be another move up to OC, or something , too.. never thought about that....

[FISHDAWG]

not sure, but I think U-Conn just lost their DC

[engie]

We're the 4th biggest team in all of FBS. Balis deserves credit for that.

Mostly, I hate losing assistants and never hearing a word about it from our staff. If Mullen would come out and say he needs more money for assistant coaches, it could be privately raised in no time...

My biggest damn issue is Strick(and Mullen by proxy) rolling along pretending it isn't a problem that we've got the lowest-paid DC in the league by a smooth 150k...

[War Machine Dawg]

We're the 4th biggest team in all of FBS. Balis deserves credit for that.

Mostly, I hate losing assistants and never hearing a word about it from our staff. If Mullen would come out and say he needs more money for assistant coaches, it could be privately raised in no time...

My biggest damn issue is Strick(and Mullen by proxy) rolling along pretending it isn't a problem that we've got the lowest-paid DC in the league by a smooth 150k...

Bingo. Our coordinators get the shaft due to our AD being LT 2.0. We're "Lil' Miss'ippi Tate" without the money to pay, when the fact is we have plenty of money to pay our assistants. Bare minimum for an OC or DC should be $500k.

[gtowndawg]

to do the exact same job, for the exact same boss. It could be both just wanted a change. I don't think it has anything to do with money, I can tell you that.

[deltadawg99]

Rusty Whitt from ULL would be a great hire. Military guy who was voted Most Intimidating Strength Coach in American by I believe lostletterman or another sports blog.

He headbutted a player to get them fired up before the New Orleans bowl in 2011 when the player had on a helmet and he didn't. Here is a good article about it:
http://www.terezowens.com/bloodied-coach-tells-his-side-of-the-story/

[Goat Holder]

You two clowns really should think before giving your opinion after this season. Just sayin'.

[engie]

You two clowns really should think before giving your opinion after this season. Just sayin'.

Go take your medicine.

You should really think before giving your opinion period. But you won't. That's why you are the most consistently dumb ass poster in the history of State message boards -- and hold the dubious honor of possibly getting banned from SPS more times than all OM fans combined.

[Esmerelda Villalobos]

We're the 4th biggest team in all of FBS. Balis deserves credit for that.

Mostly, I hate losing assistants and never hearing a word about it from our staff. If Mullen would come out and say he needs more money for assistant coaches, it could be privately raised in no time...

My biggest damn issue is Strick(and Mullen by proxy) rolling along pretending it isn't a problem that we've got the lowest-paid DC in the league by a smooth 150k...

4th biggest? How did you come up with that?

[FlabLoser]

Knowing engie, he summed the weights of each player on every team. :-)

[Jack Lambert]

Connecticut bound

Maybe he likes women with hair on the pits. Is he going for the same position or is he going to be a position coach or something else.

[smootness]

Bingo. Our coordinators get the shaft due to our AD being LT 2.0. We're "Lil' Miss'ippi Tate" without the money to pay, when the fact is we have plenty of money to pay our assistants. Bare minimum for an OC or DC should be $500k.

This is a bad way to look at salaries, though. If we could get a coach for $300,000, why pay him $600,000?

This was Collins' first year as DC, so of course his salary will start on the low end (and I'm assuming he got somewhat of a raise after his promotion). As he improves and the chances of him leaving (thus his value to State) improve, we should raise his salary to match that, but not necessarily before.

So he should get a sizeable raise, and I would guess that he will. But why not wait until we see what his salary will be before going nuts over it?

And Koenning isn't truly an OC in the sense that other OC's are. Mullen calls the offense, and it is his baby. It would make no sense to pay Koenning more than we have to if he does the job the way Mullen wants him to. If we want someone who does more than Koenning at some point, then we'll have to pay more to get that guy, but obviously Mullen is fine with the way it is now.

And salaries are always reactionary. It's the way it works, and everyone understands it isn't personal. No coach is going to leave his current job for another just because his current employer only came up to what the other was offering once he got the other offer. If you allow your feelings to be hurt because your pay only increases once there is a threat of you leaving for another job, then you won't do well in America.

We should pay our assistants what it takes to get good ones that we want and keep good ones that we want, nothing more just to say we pay them more. If what we're paying now is enough to get an assistant we want (it was good enough to get Collins and keep him to this point), that's fine. Once we need to pay more (as we almost certainly do now with Collins), then we should pay more, and I assume we will.

[engie]

4th biggest? How did you come up with that?

Was an article recently. I know Bama and Stanford are 2 of the top 3 -- and we were 4th...

[engie]

Yeah -- how many of you stayed at your current job when you were paid HALF compared to all of your peers at sister companies -- and your company only offered to make you competitively paid AFTER the other companies offered to pay you what you were worth? Probably not many stayed in the reactionary environment -- preferring the proactive one.

It's SEC FOOTBALL. You pay on the front end -- and if that guy sucks, you get rid of him -- and that SALARY that prime assistants now know that you are willing to pay attracts attention from a completely different grade of assistant coaches. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Johnson85]

Well, with all due respect to Strick, we have ABSOLUTELY had at least one assistant leave primarily due to money. Diaz went to Texas for nearly triple his salary (~280K to 750K). Now obviously with the prestige of Texas he may have gone for the same money so the qualifying statement of "solely" for money I guess he can get away with but my issue is with us being solely REACTIVE. We KNOW we are at the very bottom of the pay scale in the SEC for assistants so are we just going to wait until we get an assistant with an offer to leave for another league job before we pay him the going wage? Better to get out in front and pay a little more competitively to start with. Nobody says we have to pay what the TOP of the SEC pays but heck OM, for example, pays Wommack over double what we pay Collins.

And if he hadn't, that would have been even worse. We would have likely been paying the same money as UT did for the same results.

Now if you want to complain that our starting salary limited us to Chris Wilson as an option, that might be a valid complaint.

[FISHDAWG]

Was an article recently. I know Bama and Stanford are 2 of the top 3 -- and we were 4th...

I saw the same thing ... something like the 4th heaviest (team average ) in the country

[RougeDawg]

I saw the same thing ... something like the 4th heaviest (team average ) in the country

This article.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-27/why-the-sec-dominates-college-football-in-six-charts

[smootness]

Yeah -- how many of you stayed at your current job when you were paid HALF compared to all of your peers at sister companies -- and your company only offered to make you competitively paid AFTER the other companies offered to pay you what you were worth? Probably not many stayed in the reactionary environment -- preferring the proactive one.

It's SEC FOOTBALL. You pay on the front end -- and if that guy sucks, you get rid of him -- and that SALARY that prime assistants now know that you are willing to pay attracts attention from a completely different grade of assistant coaches. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I just disagree with this, at least to some extent. It isn't how things work. You're telling me there is a company out there who could get a certain employee for $70,000/year and keep him at that amount because no other company was willing to pay him more and then begin increasing his salary every year despite the fact that no other company wanted him for even his original $70,000? It's all tied to supply and demand. Your company will pay you more, if they want to keep you, when they feel like they need to do so in order to keep you and almost never before that.

Assistants will know we are willing to pay when we give them their offer. It's not like we would offer someone $500,00 and they wouldn't take it because we paid our previous guy $300,000 and they don't know if we would go up to $500,000?

Again, if you leave your company because they bumped up your salary to match an offer from another company, then you probably didn't just leave for the money. It wouldn't make sense. You probably would rather work at the other company anyway, all things being equal. Another company offering you more than you currently make doesn't make them proactive. It means they knew they had to do that in order to get you. They will then become reactionary when a different company tries to do the same thing.

[Barking 13]

I'm with Smoot on this one.. going thru that scenario as we speak...

ETA: if you're happy and comfortable in your job and surroundings making $X , and the family is happy, etc. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to take a job for $X x .5 if you have to relocate and join people you have no clue about, cost of living higher, etc.... sometimes doesn't make sense

[Goat Holder]

Engie has never grasped the concept of real world money and supply and demand. His economic ignorance was on display with the baseball stadium too. He does a lot of whining and uses capital letters and writes a bunch of paragraphs full of useless stats, but the point is still the same at the end.

[Coach66]

We're the 4th biggest team in all of FBS. Balis deserves credit for that.

Mostly, I hate losing assistants and never hearing a word about it from our staff. If Mullen would come out and say he needs more money for assistant coaches, it could be privately raised in no time...

My biggest damn issue is Strick(and Mullen by proxy) rolling along pretending it isn't a problem that we've got the lowest-paid DC in the league by a smooth 150k...

needs to fix the salary issues, Mullen just needs to do it.

[FlabLoser]

A good way to respond with a thoughful rebuttal void of personal insults:


I just disagree with this, at least to some extent. It isn't how things work. You're telling me there is a company out there who could get a certain employee for $70,000/year and keep him at that amount because no other company was willing to pay him more and then begin increasing his salary every year despite the fact that no other company wanted him for even his original $70,000? It's all tied to supply and demand. Your company will pay you more, if they want to keep you, when they feel like they need to do so in order to keep you and almost never before that.

Assistants will know we are willing to pay when we give them their offer. It's not like we would offer someone $500,00 and they wouldn't take it because we paid our previous guy $300,000 and they don't know if we would go up to $500,000?

Again, if you leave your company because they bumped up your salary to match an offer from another company, then you probably didn't just leave for the money. It wouldn't make sense. You probably would rather work at the other company anyway, all things being equal. Another company offering you more than you currently make doesn't make them proactive. It means they knew they had to do that in order to get you. They will then become reactionary when a different company tries to do the same thing.


A classic example of how not to respond, using insults and belittlement:


Engie has never grasped the concept of real world money and supply and demand. His economic ignorance was on display with the baseball stadium too. He does a lot of whining and uses capital letters and writes a bunch of paragraphs full of useless stats, but the point is still the same at the end.



Chill.

[maroonmania]

And if he hadn't, that would have been even worse. We would have likely been paying the same money as UT did for the same results.

Now if you want to complain that our starting salary limited us to Chris Wilson as an option, that might be a valid complaint.

First, if Diaz had stayed OBVIOUSLY we would have never paid him what Texas did and I wasn't even suggesting that. And Diaz performed well for us, I don't know what all happened at Texas with him but had he stayed with us there is no guarantee that the results would have been the same.

Bottom line though is that if you pay at the bottom of the coordinator pay scale as we currently are you are restricted to 3 types of coaches, either guys not currently at a BCS team that is an up and comer coordinator (Diaz, Collins) or a guy that is on the backside of his career that is somewhat washed up as a coordinator (Torbush), or a guy that is a position coach trying to become a coordinator (Wilson). And so far those are the only types Mullen has hired. And I'll add that Koennig really is in the same category as Torbush but I don't really care much there because we all know that Mullen runs the offense.

[FlabLoser]

needs to fix the salary issues, Mullen just needs to do it.

Well that's interesting, and better news than I expected today.

[chef dixon]

Just hire HUD! He's swole!

[engie]

Engie has never grasped the concept of real world money and supply and demand. His economic ignorance was on display with the baseball stadium too. He does a lot of whining and uses capital letters and writes a bunch of paragraphs full of useless stats, but the point is still the same at the end.

How many times did you say "there is NOOOO WAYYYYY we will tear down the grandstand!!1!1...Dudy Noble is the bestest evArrr!!1!1". You were the #1 OPPONENT to starting over for the first year or two that Todd and I started pushing the idea.

But I'm the "economically ignorant" one -- now that EXACTLY what I said needed to happen is happening. Could you have POSSIBLY made a worse example? I was 100% SPOT ON on the baseball stadium situation a LONG TIME before 99% of people got on board with it -- and there are literally hundreds of people here who will vouch for that.

But continue being a dumbass goat -- no one expects any less.

[HancockCountyDog]

How many times did you say "there is NOOOO WAYYYYY we will tear down the grandstand!!1!1...Dudy Noble is the bestest evArrr!!1!1". You were the #1 OPPONENT to that for the first year or two that Todd and I started pushing the idea.

But I'm the "economically ignorant" one -- now that EXACTLY what I said needed to happen is happening. Could you have POSSIBLY made a worse example? I was 100% SPOT ON on the baseball stadium situation a LONG TIME before 99% of people got on board with it -- and there are literally hundreds of people here who will vouch for that.

But continue being a dumbass goat -- no one expects any less.

Its like pushing an old man down a flight of stairs.

[Goat Holder]

So is his wife:

http://reds.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a558e580970c017d3f021e9f970c-800wi

[engie]

I just disagree with this, at least to some extent. It isn't how things work. You're telling me there is a company out there who could get a certain employee for $70,000/year and keep him at that amount because no other company was willing to pay him more and then begin increasing his salary every year despite the fact that no other company wanted him for even his original $70,000? It's all tied to supply and demand. Your company will pay you more, if they want to keep you, when they feel like they need to do so in order to keep you and almost never before that.
If I take a job making $70k -- in a market that calls for me to make $130k -- you can bet your ass that I'm looking to upgrade and get on the first train out of town. What we're doing right now is tantamount to paying engineers $30k out of school -- when the competitive market calls for them to make $45+. Can we fill the positions? Maybe -- there are always people that are desperate enough to take the position. But that doesn't mean they are desperate enough to stay in that position.


Assistants will know we are willing to pay when we give them their offer. It's not like we would offer someone $500,00 and they wouldn't take it because we paid our previous guy $300,000 and they don't know if we would go up to $500,000?
Huh? I'm not advocating paying money just to pay it -- I'm advocating paying what the competitive market our team is in requires -- in order to retain -- and by proxy hire more competitively in the future. We've been lucky with 2 up-and-comers -- and then we've completely struck out twice. A 50% hit rate for coordinators sucks. We're basically playing roulette on up-and-comers hoping they work out -- and as soon as they do, they are out the door -- because we aren't paying them their true value in order to keep them. Once Texas calls, they are gone.

I'd MUCH rather pay them on the front end -- so they are not constantly fielding the calls and dealing with the whispers in recruiting. Pay Collins $500k -- with a possibility of another $200k in incentives -- and suddenly the list of schools that feel like they can make a run at him goes for 75+ -- to under 20. Greatly increased security all around.


Again, if you leave your company because they bumped up your salary to match an offer from another company, then you probably didn't just leave for the money. It wouldn't make sense. You probably would rather work at the other company anyway, all things being equal. Another company offering you more than you currently make doesn't make them proactive. It means they knew they had to do that in order to get you. They will then become reactionary when a different company tries to do the same thing.
If I'm working for half of what I know I'm worth, I'm going to hold a grudge about that regardless. So, you are right, I'll be leaving town as soon as I possibly can.

WHAT, exactly, is MSU gaining -- by paying our assistants the least in the conference?

[Goat Holder]

WHAT, exactly, is MSU gaining -- by paying our assistants the least in the conference?

How about staying out of debt?

[BrunswickDawg]

Heard this guy is available
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/qM_HS0iBH2o/hqdefault.jpg

[smootness]

If I take a job making $70k -- in a market that calls for me to make $130k -- you can bet your ass that I'm looking to upgrade and get on the first train out of town. What we're doing right now is tantamount to paying engineers $30k out of school -- when the competitive market calls for them to make $45+. Can we fill the positions? Maybe -- there are always people that are desperate enough to take the position. But that doesn't mean they are desperate enough to stay in that position.

But this is essentially my point. If the market calls for you to make $130,000, then they're paying less than what it takes to keep you. But they're not going to pay you $130,000 if the market for you is $70,000.


If I'm working for half of what I know I'm worth, I'm going to hold a grudge about that regardless. So, you are right, I'll be leaving town as soon as I possibly can.

WHAT, exactly, is MSU gaining -- by paying our assistants the least in the conference?

My point is that we're paying our assistants, right now, what it took to get them. Just because we're paying them the least in the conference right now doesn't mean it will always stay there.

Let's take Collins. Let's say Mullen wants Collins more than anyone else at the DC position. It would be a fair assessment, given what we saw from our defense this year. Well, his current salary is what it took to get him and keep him. We were paying exactly what market value for Geoff Collins was. Just because that happened to be less than some other schools paid their DC doesn't necessarily make it a bad move.

Now, Collins' reputation has clearly improved, and I am sure he is getting other offers at this point. Obviously his market value has increased. If we continue to pay him what we are now, which is now less than market value, and he leaves then we are stupid. But we don't know what he will be paid for next year yet. And until then, I don't think it does any good to criticize the administration for paying him what market value was for him last year.

We need to be proactive in the sense that we need to gauge what the market value is for him and increase his pay accordingly. I would hope we do that, and if we don't, all the criticism is justified.

But let's say Collins eventually takes a HC somewhere, in 2 years maybe. Let's say we increased his salary up to $750,000 because he did a great job, and he wanted to become a HC. Let's say that Mullen decided the DC he wanted was a guy that it took $250,000 to get (and I mean truly evaluated and decided this guy was the best guy he could get, not just the guy we could get for $250,000).

Just because we paid the new guy $250,000, which happened to be the lowest amount in the conference, wouldn't necessarily mean we're cheap. We would have proven we're willing to pay enough to keep the guy we want, but the market value for the guy we want just happens to be significantly less.

So I agree that if every single year we're at the bottom of the conference and it doesn't ever change, that will more than likely signal that criticism needs to leveled at the administration. But my point is that being at the bottom of the conference for a specific time period doesn't necessarily mean it deserves criticism. It just means that for that period of time, that was the going rate for our assistants.

[engie]

How about staying out of debt?

Great reply LT. Perfect microcosm of your thinking altogether.

And making it even more obvious that you don't have a frigging clue what you are talking about when it comes to our athletics finances.

[messageboardsuperhero]

Engie has never grasped the concept of real world money and supply and demand. His economic ignorance was on display with the baseball stadium too. He does a lot of whining and uses capital letters and writes a bunch of paragraphs full of useless stats, but the point is still the same at the end.

Dear Lord, you could not have picked a worse example to try to help make your point. By now, almost everyone who closely follows MSU baseball knows that engie and Todd were right on the money about needed to be done with the baseball stadium.

And it looks like you're the one who doesn't understand supply and demand. The market for a good SEC coordinator demands a salary of at least $500k- anything less than that will usually get you a below average coordinator. We lucked out and found a good one for cheap in Collins, but now we have to pay him the $600k that he's worth- which is really what we should have been paying him to begin with.

[HancockCountyDog]

How about staying out of debt?

Is this a problem that Im not aware of? Im serious - this is the first I have heard that we are close to operating on a negative.

I mean, we sold out the stadium this year, the SEC had multiple teams in the BCS, we sold out our bowl allotment plus probably 20K more, and we are about to have our own network, so how are we 750K away from being in debt?

[messageboardsuperhero]

Is this a problem that Im not aware of? Im serious - this is the first I have heard that we are close to operating on a negative.

I mean, we sold out the stadium this year, the SEC had multiple teams in the BCS, we sold out our bowl allotment plus probably 20K more, and we are about to have our own network, so how are we 750K away from being in debt?

Short answer- we aren't.

[engie]

But this is essentially my point. If the market calls for you to make $130,000, then they're paying less than what it takes to keep you.
This is my point in it's entirity. We are paying less than it takes to keep our best and brightest assistants. If anything, we've got to overpay so they are willing to work with Mullen and live in Mississippi in general.


My point is that we're paying our assistants, right now, what it took to get them. Just because we're paying them the least in the conference right now doesn't mean it will always stay there.
It's been 5 years. When is it changing? I've seen AT LEAST 3 tremendous assistants show up at MSU and be gone right as traction was building at the worst possible times. We aren't paying them what they are worth in the SEC. Period. Until we do -- I'm going to bitch about it. And I'm mainly talking about Collins here -- because I'm mostly OK with the position coach salaries, which aren't far from competitive in general.


Let's take Collins. Let's say Mullen wants Collins more than anyone else at the DC position. It would be a fair assessment, given what we saw from our defense this year. Well, his current salary is what it took to get him and keep him. We were paying exactly what market value for Geoff Collins was. Just because that happened to be less than some other schools paid their DC doesn't necessarily make it a bad move.
The problem is the part where you threw in the word "keep". We haven't "kept" anyone yet. We offered a guy a chance to be a co-DC in the SEC with the understanding that he would get his shot at DC next. That overrides money on the front end. But it's NOW TIME TO TRANSITION OURSELVES FROM STEPPING STONE TO DESTINATION. We've got the money now -- there is NO EXCUSE for us still being a stepping stone -- when we are knocking on the door of top 25 AD money and should be a destination...

Collins has looked around a bunch. He had several opportunities to leave last year -- and he's very close to getting offered Sun Belt level head jobs(he's already been mentioned as a candidate several times). We've got to pay him more than those jobs on the front end if we hope to keep him. Notice those schools aren't making a run at Kirby Smart...Why do you think that is?


Now, Collins' reputation has clearly improved, and I am sure he is getting other offers at this point. Obviously his market value has increased. If we continue to pay him what we are now, which is now less than market value, and he leaves then we are stupid. But we don't know what he will be paid for next year yet. And until then, I don't think it does any good to criticize the administration for paying him what market value was for him last year.

Once he's gone -- it's too late to bitch about it then. Agree or disagree? Hence why it ONLY makes sense to complain about it on the front end. Contracts are signed on/near the Jan 1 for us. Numbers should have been announced already, if there were any significant changes to be made.


We need to be proactive in the sense that we need to gauge what the market value is for him and increase his pay accordingly. I would hope we do that, and if we don't, all the criticism is justified.
Hence my point.


But let's say Collins eventually takes a HC somewhere, in 2 years maybe. Let's say we increased his salary up to $750,000 because he did a great job, and he wanted to become a HC. Let's say that Mullen decided the DC he wanted was a guy that it took $250,000 to get (and I mean truly evaluated and decided this guy was the best guy he could get, not just the guy we could get for $250,000).

Just because we paid the new guy $250,000, which happened to be the lowest amount in the conference, wouldn't necessarily mean we're cheap. We would have proven we're willing to pay enough to keep the guy we want, but the market value for the guy we want just happens to be significantly less.
You are delving WAY into theoreticals now.

Once we ACTUALLY pay COLLINS, I will be HAPPY. We've got a LONG history of not paying assistant coaches. I want that to change. Once it does, my mission will be accomplished -- and I will no longer complain about it.


So I agree that if every single year we're at the bottom of the conference and it doesn't ever change, that will more than likely signal that criticism needs to leveled at the administration. But my point is that being at the bottom of the conference for a specific time period doesn't necessarily mean it deserves criticism. It just means that for that period of time, that was the going rate for our assistants.
Feel free to show me any period of time that it wasn't true?

My point is that we've been at the bottom in assistant pay for 25 years -- nonstop. So, what you are inferring here is EXACTLY what I'm doing. There was a period of time where we couldn't do anything to prevent that -- because LT was worried about keeping us in the black instead of having a bit of foresight toward moving us into the future. Much like Goat exhibited in his previous post.

[justwin]

Not worried. If Saint Mullen has Proven anything is that he can identify good coaches to bring in...the 3 he added last year were superb. I already think Collins, et al has already been given a raise but Saint Mullen will announce when convenient for him (probably best when to embarrass Stevens, Locke, etc publicly) not us


Pitiful to lose an assistant football coach to freakin' Connecticut. I don't see how Mullen and our administration can't see the importance of getting our assistants pay up to SEC standards. S&C coach is a very important guy for us.

[TDawg52]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling..... Lord help us, we're doomed......:cool:

[engie]

Is this a problem that Im not aware of? Im serious - this is the first I have heard that we are close to operating on a negative.

I mean, we sold out the stadium this year, the SEC had multiple teams in the BCS, we sold out our bowl allotment plus probably 20K more, and we are about to have our own network, so how are we 750K away from being in debt?

Numbers are easy to find. Goat was just talking out of his ass.

[sleepy dawg]

Pitiful to lose an assistant football coach to freakin' Connecticut. I don't see how Mullen and our administration can't see the importance of getting our assistants pay up to SEC standards. S&C coach is a very important guy for us.

I guess we can add this to the list of things that are Mullen's fault.

Mullen's fault #503: He does not think assistant coaches salary is important.

[Big4Dawg]

FWIW Paul J reported that Balis didn't leave because of money. He was friends with UConn's coach from their time at Virginia.

[smootness]

This is my point in it's entirity. We are paying less than it takes to keep our best and brightest assistants. If anything, we've got to overpay so they are willing to work with Mullen and live in Mississippi in general.

I've seen AT LEAST 3 tremendous assistants show up at MSU and be gone right as traction was building at the worst possible times. We aren't paying them what they are worth in the SEC. Period. Until we do -- I'm going to bitch about it. And I'm mainly talking about Collins here -- because I'm mostly OK with the position coach salaries, which aren't far from competitive in general.

The problem is the part where you threw in the word "keep". We haven't "kept" anyone yet. We offered a guy a chance to be a co-DC in the SEC with the understanding that he would get his shot at DC next. That overrides money on the front end. But it's NOW TIME TO TRANSITION OURSELVES FROM STEPPING STONE TO DESTINATION. We've got the money now -- there is NO EXCUSE for us still being a stepping stone -- when we are knocking on the door of top 25 AD money and should be a destination...

But are we paying less, right now, than it takes to keep our top assistants? I'm not sure that's true.

Under Mullen, we have lost the following:
Carl Torbush - effectively fired
Manny Diaz - left to be DC at Texas; not about money, don't think anything we paid would have kept him
Chris Wilson - effectively fired
Mark Hudspeth - left to be a D1 HC; not about money, don't think anything we paid would have kept him
Melvin Smith - could have been about money, don't really know
Matt Balis - seriously doubt it was about money, we'll find out
Tim Brewster - may have been about money, don't really know; he seems to want to climb the ladder quickly again, so that may have been more about the prestige of the program

I know there have probably been a couple more but I can't think of them; feel free to add on if so.

I don't see that money has been the overriding reason we're not keeping assistant coaches. And I agree that we would certainly have to pay over and above what a school like, say, Florida State would have to pay to have a chance to keep someone for the same job generally speaking. But those schools also know they have to pay more to get/keep good coaches, and they do have more money to work with. So it's hard to ever tell, for us as fans, when money was the deciding factor. But I think it's safe to say that at least more often than not, it hasn't been about money.

You are focused on Collins. But we haven't lost Collins. Obviously if we do, it will be too late. But again, I don't think he was underpaid going into last year. He had never been a DC on that level before, so he was at the bottom of the group. Now he has proven himself as a DC in the SEC and should be paid accordingly, but we don't know that he won't be and there seem to be at least whispers he will be receiving a raise. I can't imagine he won't.

But assuming he won't get a raise because we haven't heard about it yet, then being up in arms with Mullen/Stricklin because of the assumption that he won't get a raise is what I don't get.

Even if Collins is still here next year, if his salary is the same or only marginally higher, I will fully agree with you. As of now, I can't.

[Johnson85]

First, if Diaz had stayed OBVIOUSLY we would have never paid him what Texas did and I wasn't even suggesting that. And Diaz performed well for us, I don't know what all happened at Texas with him but had he stayed with us there is no guarantee that the results would have been the same.

Bottom line though is that if you pay at the bottom of the coordinator pay scale as we currently are you are restricted to 3 types of coaches, either guys not currently at a BCS team that is an up and comer coordinator (Diaz, Collins) or a guy that is on the backside of his career that is somewhat washed up as a coordinator (Torbush), or a guy that is a position coach trying to become a coordinator (Wilson). And so far those are the only types Mullen has hired. And I'll add that Koennig really is in the same category as Torbush but I don't really care much there because we all know that Mullen runs the offense.

If Diaz had stayed, we would likely paid as much or more than Texas. That's the point. It wasn't just about money. Texas is one of the few schools high profile enough that you get consideration for good head coaching jobs without taking an intermediate step first. The previous DC was hired by Florida, as far as I know his first head coaching job. An ambitious coordinator is going to take that job almost every time. That may change as established schools look more for head coaches from less prestigious programs rather than coordinators, but at that time, you had a better chance of going to a big name head coaching position from DC at Texas than Head Coach at places like ULL.

[maroonmania]

But are we paying less, right now, than it takes to keep our top assistants? I'm not sure that's true.

Under Mullen, we have lost the following:
Carl Torbush - effectively fired
Manny Diaz - left to be DC at Texas; not about money, don't think anything we paid would have kept him
Chris Wilson - effectively fired
Mark Hudspeth - left to be a D1 HC; not about money, don't think anything we paid would have kept him
Melvin Smith - could have been about money, don't really know
Matt Balis - seriously doubt it was about money, we'll find out
Tim Brewster - may have been about money, don't really know; he seems to want to climb the ladder quickly again, so that may have been more about the prestige of the program

I know there have probably been a couple more but I can't think of them; feel free to add on if so.

I don't see that money has been the overriding reason we're not keeping assistant coaches. And I agree that we would certainly have to pay over and above what a school like, say, Florida State would have to pay to have a chance to keep someone for the same job generally speaking. But those schools also know they have to pay more to get/keep good coaches, and they do have more money to work with. So it's hard to ever tell, for us as fans, when money was the deciding factor. But I think it's safe to say that at least more often than not, it hasn't been about money.

You are focused on Collins. But we haven't lost Collins. Obviously if we do, it will be too late. But again, I don't think he was underpaid going into last year. He had never been a DC on that level before, so he was at the bottom of the group. Now he has proven himself as a DC in the SEC and should be paid accordingly, but we don't know that he won't be and there seem to be at least whispers he will be receiving a raise. I can't imagine he won't.

But assuming he won't get a raise because we haven't heard about it yet, then being up in arms with Mullen/Stricklin because of the assumption that he won't get a raise is what I don't get.

Even if Collins is still here next year, if his salary is the same or only marginally higher, I will fully agree with you. As of now, I can't.

As I said, if all we ever intend to do is hire coordinators not at a BCS school, a BCS position coach wanting a chance at BCS coordinator, or a washed up coach who has been a BCS coordinator then yes, we are perfectly good with what we are doing pay wise. But every time we hire it will either be an experiment at this level or we will know we have a coach way past his prime. And I don't see how a guy will have a lot of loyalty to you if you are paying him on the cheap for a job that ALL his peers are getting paid 50% more for minimum.

[Political Hack]

so we should only reward performance when coaches try to leave?

thats a terrible way to conduct business for several reasons. First, you're setting a terrible incentive structure that will result in constant turnover and other schools flirting with your coaches. Secondly, that's a huge middle ground for "don't get fired" and "don't get offers to raise my pay." It allows coaches to become stagnant and comfortable with mediocre performace. Third, it doesn't send clear messGes to the other assistants that Collins busted ass and is going to get paid so maybe you should up your performance and you'll get paid too.

There's a right way and a wrong way to run a business. And not raising salaries until someone threatens to leave is the wrong way.

[Goat Holder]

He's a big city guy too, said as much when we hired him. He probably just had too much of the small town life.

BUT WE WERZNT PAAAAYING 'NUFF !!!!!

[Political Hack]

I don't think anyone is claiming pay is the sole reason he left. It's obviously not. But it's also a problem we need to rectify.

[maroonmania]

so we should only reward performance when coaches try to leave?

thats a terrible way to conduct business for several reasons. First, you're setting a terrible incentive structure that will result in constant turnover and other schools flirting with your coaches. Secondly, that's a huge middle ground for "don't get fired" and "don't get offers to raise my pay." It allows coaches to become stagnant and comfortable with mediocre performace. Third, it doesn't send clear messGes to the other assistants that Collins busted ass and is going to get paid so maybe you should up your performance and you'll get paid too.

There's a right way and a wrong way to run a business. And not raising salaries until someone threatens to leave is the wrong way.

I'm just a little shocked that a fairly large percentage of our fans on this site think that the way we pay assistant football coaches is perfectly fine and that we should only bump a coach up to SEC standards after they've proven they are REALLY good. To me its embarrassing that we are in the SEC and don't have ONE assistant coach making 300K. Collins I believe is our highest paid assistant and he is something like the 65th highest paid assistant in the ENTIRE SEC.

[Bothrops]

It could be that he just wants a change of scenery, new opportunity, etc. Or he just might be tired of a place. It happens.

[engie]

Agreed with everything you are saying maroonmania and hack...

[Dallas_Dawg]

Hopefully, we will pay Collins like we raised mullen's salary. Mullen was the first head coach here to get a raise as significant as the one he received.
Collins is a head coach in waiting for somewhere else. He just doesn't need to rush it and build his resume. He has been an SEC DC for exactly ONE year. Don't you think that he can build his stock by being named a hot head coaching candidate thrown around on the news for a couple years?
Collins may be mentioned for sun belt jobs, but he has the potential for much more. I think he is smart enough to realize this, and we need to hope like hell that our Univeristy will pay him so he doesn't take a lateral position for more money.

[Goindhoo]

I'm with Smoot on this one.. going thru that scenario as we speak...

ETA: if you're happy and comfortable in your job and surroundings making $X , and the family is happy, etc. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to take a job for $X x .5 if you have to relocate and join people you have no clue about, cost of living higher, etc.... sometimes doesn't make sense

Why would anyone change jobs or relocate for 1/2 of their current salary?

[bulldawg28]

All this speculation. What if Mullen told him to find another job? We're fine.

[War Machine Dawg]

Dear Lord, you could not have picked a worse example to try to help make your point. By now, almost everyone who closely follows MSU baseball knows that engie and Todd were right on the money about needed to be done with the baseball stadium.

And it looks like you're the one who doesn't understand supply and demand. The market for a good SEC coordinator demands a salary of at least $500k- anything less than that will usually get you a below average coordinator. We lucked out and found a good one for cheap in Collins, but now we have to pay him the $600k that he's worth- which is really what we should have been paying him to begin with.

You get it, sir. I don't know why the hell our fans can't understand this. Too many years of being "poor ol' Em Ess Yoo" and LT, I guess. Always broke, facts be damned.

[preachermatt83]

several things here... Balis was an outstanding STREGNTH coach, BUT he had some problems ... 1) Our kids were never increasing in anything but strength, NEVER in speed. In fact it seemed many of our kids got slower like perkins and JLewis. 2) INJURIES!! Now I am aware that there are many injuries that have nothing to do with this but there are some that do. One of the tell-tale signs of how well a S and C coach is doing is injuries. 3) It may have been a mutual thing bc I know for certain Dan had been very hard on Balis this year regarding injuries. .. I don't think losing Balis hurts at all and it could even help if you ask me. I'd go after ULL S and C guy or either a name many of you have not heard... Mike Hendershot. .. Mike started at state under Rocky but his resume in the S and C world is AMAZING. He is coaching at a Small HS in Ms (scott central) but he began a power lifting team there about 12 years ago and within that time they have 9 overall state championships 7 of which were consecutive. Not only that his kids are rarely injured and always increase in agility and quickness.. He was offered the S and C job of all the "small sports" under Byrne and has been offered several other S and C jobs that I know of. Mcneese St, Mississippi College, and Central Arky as well as many HS jobs like Brandon, Forest, and Louisville but he has said he is happy where he is. He built it from nothing and his wife works at the school. I have heard him say that the MSU head strength job is the only job he'd ever leave for. Now go ahead and laugh at me about this but Im telling you this guy is the best ive ever been around.



Just my 2 cents.

[Bully Dee Williams]

I don't know if this has been pointed out in this thread (I didn't want to wade through 5 pages), but Balis had a top 5 SEC/top 20 nationally for an SC coach per Paul Jones. I don't think he left because we weren't paying enough. Coaches come and go. This isn't the end of the road.

Heck, a few seasons ago many of you clamored that we needed "pay" Chris Wilson to keep him happy and at State. Change can be a good thing. Please stop with the we need to stop being cheap business.

[PendingTransaction]

He left because he was getting "the scapegoat" chew, especially in the first 2/3 of the season. I say we hire Hud and wife. Have you seen the size of their pecs.

[ShotgunDawg]

I don't think anyone is claiming pay is the sole reason he left. It's obviously not. But it's also a problem we need to rectify.

Then why did this thread turn into a 90 post assistant coach pay freak out if it had nothing to do with Balis leaving?

[Coach34]

Then why did this thread turn into a 90 post assistant coach pay freak out if it had nothing to do with Balis leaving?

Because there is a legit concern over what we pay assistants. And while that concern is valid- it doesnt mean that any assistant that leaves does so over money. But most of us feel its better to be proactive rather than reactive

[smootness]

so we should only reward performance when coaches try to leave?

thats a terrible way to conduct business for several reasons. First, you're setting a terrible incentive structure that will result in constant turnover and other schools flirting with your coaches. Secondly, that's a huge middle ground for "don't get fired" and "don't get offers to raise my pay." It allows coaches to become stagnant and comfortable with mediocre performace. Third, it doesn't send clear messGes to the other assistants that Collins busted ass and is going to get paid so maybe you should up your performance and you'll get paid too.

There's a right way and a wrong way to run a business. And not raising salaries until someone threatens to leave is the wrong way.

I didn't say you only pay someone when they threaten to leave. I'm saying that we should pay market value for the kind of coach we have. As I said, regardless of what other offers Collins has at this point, his market value has gone up. Even if he hasn't threatened to leave, we should increase his pay accordingly.

But at the end of the day, it all comes back to what you have to pay someone to stay and what keeps them happy/motivated. Collins' salary this year may have been exactly the right figure...if it was, it makes no sense to pay him $300,000 more just to do it. But I would think that number is going up, and we should pay him accordingly.

I agree with all of you guys. I want us to be competitive in AC salaries; it's one area where we may be able to get the best bang for our buck relative to the rest of the conference.

But it seems like most people are assuming the quality of our coaches is lower than everyone else's because our salaries are lower. First, I don't necessarily buy that the rest of the conference has better ACs, but even if that's true, all I'm saying is that it may be that our salaries are lower because the quality of our coaches is lower.

Just because you pay a coach more money doesn't mean you have a better coach. You can argue that paying all of our AC a ton will attract better coaches, but I think that is accomplished in the attempt to hire that specific coach. Offer someone double their current salary, or more than anyone else is currently offering, and they probably don't really care so much what you paid the last guy who did their job.

[HailState39110]

I like Balis and know all is well after winning our last 3 games but I was seriously doubting his S&C after South Carolina because of our second half performances to that point throughout the year. it looked as if we were getting beat mentally and physically in the 3rd and 4th quarters

[engie]

I didn't say you only pay someone when they threaten to leave. I'm saying that we should pay market value for the kind of coach we have. As I said, regardless of what other offers Collins has at this point, his market value has gone up. Even if he hasn't threatened to leave, we should increase his pay accordingly.

But at the end of the day, it all comes back to what you have to pay someone to stay and what keeps them happy/motivated. Collins' salary this year may have been exactly the right figure...if it was, it makes no sense to pay him $300,000 more just to do it. But I would think that number is going up, and we should pay him accordingly.

I agree with all of you guys. I want us to be competitive in AC salaries; it's one area where we may be able to get the best bang for our buck relative to the rest of the conference.

But it seems like most people are assuming the quality of our coaches is lower than everyone else's because our salaries are lower. First, I don't necessarily buy that the rest of the conference has better ACs, but even if that's true, all I'm saying is that it may be that our salaries are lower because the quality of our coaches is lower.

Just because you pay a coach more money doesn't mean you have a better coach. You can argue that paying all of our AC a ton will attract better coaches, but I think that is accomplished in the attempt to hire that specific coach. Offer someone double their current salary, or more than anyone else is currently offering, and they probably don't really care so much what you paid the last guy who did their job.

Do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing -- by overcomplicating the heck out of something that's insanely simple -- or trying to find outliers to disprove an overall truth?

No -- you don't overpay idiots to be your coaches. If you prove you are willing to pay a competitive salary, you are suddenly looking at more proven coordinators from higher levels that are WORTH MORE at the time of their hiring -- instead of stealing a Sun Belt DC and praying he was as good as he seemed in that conference -- in hopes you get 2-3 years out of him before he moves on to greener pastures. What other program in the SEC does what we do with that? What I want is overall program stability -- and we don't have much of it outside of Mullen himself.

We pay our assistants 41st nationally right now. Dead f'n last in the SEC. Ole Miss pays theirs 30th. Collins is the 65th highest paid assistant IN THE SEC. There are SIXTEEN higher paid assistants among non-big5 conferences. Collins made $3k more than the defensive coordinator at Arkansas St this year. Please explain to me in rainbowland terms how that is OK? Because it's unacceptable...

[messageboardsuperhero]

I didn't say you only pay someone when they threaten to leave. I'm saying that we should pay market value for the kind of coach we have. As I said, regardless of what other offers Collins has at this point, his market value has gone up. Even if he hasn't threatened to leave, we should increase his pay accordingly.

But at the end of the day, it all comes back to what you have to pay someone to stay and what keeps them happy/motivated. Collins' salary this year may have been exactly the right figure...if it was, it makes no sense to pay him $300,000 more just to do it. But I would think that number is going up, and we should pay him accordingly.

I agree with all of you guys. I want us to be competitive in AC salaries; it's one area where we may be able to get the best bang for our buck relative to the rest of the conference.

But it seems like most people are assuming the quality of our coaches is lower than everyone else's because our salaries are lower. First, I don't necessarily buy that the rest of the conference has better ACs, but even if that's true, all I'm saying is that it may be that our salaries are lower because the quality of our coaches is lower.

Just because you pay a coach more money doesn't mean you have a better coach. You can argue that paying all of our AC a ton will attract better coaches, but I think that is accomplished in the attempt to hire that specific coach. Offer someone double their current salary, or more than anyone else is currently offering, and they probably don't really care so much what you paid the last guy who did their job.

I think you're missing the point on this- it's all about the principle. When you play in the SEC West and have spent $100 mill on facility upgrades in the last three years alone, you send the message that you aspire to play with the big boys.

Now with that in mind, there's no excuse for allowing your defensive coordinator (who happens to be one of the brighter, young defensive minds in college football) to be making the pathetic salary that Collins made this year. We will never be any bigger than we are right now unless we change our reactive approach to assistant coaching salaries. When you spend as much as we have trying to elevate the program, but then pay the coaches a shitty salary, it sends a mixed message to other coaches who we might want to look at in the future- and we've invested too much already to just half-ass something as important as coaches salaries.

Here's the bottom line- if you want to be able to attract good coaches in the future, you have to show them that you're willing to pay the ones you have now.

[smootness]

You're arguing that we have to do better than taking chances on Sun Belt DCs, then you're arguing that our former Sun Belt DC is too good to make what he made last year.

You're using his current market value, based on his success last year, as reason that his salary last year was too little.

Again, if he makes the same amount next year, I'll be in 100% agreement with you. But why do we have to be up in arms just so we can be up in arms? Let's wait to see what happens with his pay before we get upset about it.

The bottom line is, we did take a chance on a Sun Belt DC, and we paid him what it took to get a Sun Belt DC. Now he is a good SEC DC, and we have to pay him in accordance with that. But we can't go back and change what he made last year.

I just don't know why we're upset about this when we have no idea what his salary will be for next year; that's my point.

Do you think that just because the public doesn't know anything about contract terms that Stricklin and/or Mullen haven't already told him he'll be getting a raise?

[smootness]

I seem to be getting mixed messages - on one hand, we shouldn't pay someone more than their market value just because we have to. But on the other hand, we should pay whoever we hire as much as the rest of the conference.

And we shouldn't have to take chances on Sun Belt DCs...but our Sun Belt DC is too good to allow to leave.

The problem is, Mullen has been either totally hit or totally miss. So we've had to fire 2 of his 4 DCs, and one left for Texas immediately while another is already getting HC buzz.

But I just don't see how it's about money right now. We either need to go after proven DCs and pay them a lot, or go after lower DCs and see how it works out, but you shouldn't go after a lower DC to see how it works out and pay him like a proven DC.

Now that our DC is proven, we should pay him. I agree there. But he wasn't until this year.

[bully99]

None of you sleuths have sniffed out why he is leaving. I thought we had lots of people who knew somebody who knew someone.

[preachermatt83]

None of you sleuths have sniffed out why he is leaving. I thought we had lots of people who knew somebody who knew someone.

PM me and Ill tell ya what Ive heard...

[War Machine Dawg]

I think you're missing the point on this- it's all about the principle. When you play in the SEC West and have spent $100 mill on facility upgrades in the last three years alone, you send the message that you aspire to play with the big boys.

Now with that in mind, there's no excuse for allowing your defensive coordinator (who happens to be one of the brighter, young defensive minds in college football) to be making the pathetic salary that Collins made this year. We will never be any bigger than we are right now unless we change our reactive approach to assistant coaching salaries. When you spend as much as we have trying to elevate the program, but then pay the coaches a shitty salary, it sends a mixed message to other coaches who we might want to look at in the future- and we've invested too much already to just half-ass something as important as coaches salaries.

Here's the bottom line- if you want to be able to attract good coaches in the future, you have to show them that you're willing to pay the ones you have now.

MBS be dropping' bombs tonight. Damn!

[engie]

I seem to be getting mixed messages - on one hand, we shouldn't pay someone more than their market value just because we have to. But on the other hand, we should pay whoever we hire as much as the rest of the conference.

And we shouldn't have to take chances on Sun Belt DCs...but our Sun Belt DC is too good to allow to leave.

The problem is, Mullen has been either totally hit or totally miss. So we've had to fire 2 of his 4 DCs, and one left for Texas immediately while another is already getting HC buzz.

But I just don't see how it's about money right now. We either need to go after proven DCs and pay them a lot, or go after lower DCs and see how it works out, but you shouldn't go after a lower DC to see how it works out and pay him like a proven DC.

Now that our DC is proven, we should pay him. I agree there. But he wasn't until this year.

No -- you aren't actually getting any mixed messages. You are creating them in order to argue with yourself.

We're a $70mil athletics department -- en route to being a $100mil athletics dept. And we're paying assistants on a Sun Belt level. You have to try REALLY hard to not see the problem with that.

[smootness]

No -- you aren't actually getting any mixed messages. You are creating them in order to argue with yourself.

We're a $70mil athletics department -- en route to being a $100mil athletics dept. And we're paying assistants on a Sun Belt level. You have to try REALLY hard to not see the problem with that.

It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be. We have plenty of money, and for that reason we should never lose a coach we want for purely monetary reasons. As far as I know, we haven't.

But that doesn't mean you spend just to spend. Once again, we should pay what is market value for the coaches we have. There is a chance that we can't attract the same level of coach as a school like Georgia or LSU, and there is a chance that the coaches we wanted didn't have a market value as high as some other schools in the conference.

But you're advocating spending money for the sake of spending money. Either that or you're arguing that our coaches aren't good enough. But you can't be claiming that we have the right coaches yet didn't pay them enough last year because last year that is exactly what it took to have the coaches we had. Next year, we will almost certainly have to increase that to keep those coaches. And I assume we will.

My point is simply that you guys may be trying to create a problem where there isn't one yet.

[Barking 13]

Why would anyone change jobs or relocate for 1/2 of their current salary?

my bad.. should have been 1.5.... but you get the idea.... 300K in Starkville is probably like 750K anywhere else.. and who knows what other incentives he may get.. (Toyota, etc.)

The point I was trying to make is if he's making 300K in Starkville, wife loves it, and kids (if he has any) are in SA, nice crib on some land, drives new Toyotas, etc. that sometimes could be better than 750K in say, Lexington, not know anybody, having a condo, schools are a mess, etc. It ain't always about money.... but if he got offered that, that is a bargaining chip if he really wanted to stay...

[engie]

It's just not as simple as you're making it out to be. We have plenty of money, and for that reason we should never lose a coach we want for purely monetary reasons. As far as I know, we haven't.

But that doesn't mean you spend just to spend. Once again, we should pay what is market value for the coaches we have. There is a chance that we can't attract the same level of coach as a school like Georgia or LSU, and there is a chance that the coaches we wanted didn't have a market value as high as some other schools in the conference.

But you're advocating spending money for the sake of spending money. Either that or you're arguing that our coaches aren't good enough. But you can't be claiming that we have the right coaches yet didn't pay them enough last year because last year that is exactly what it took to have the coaches we had. Next year, we will almost certainly have to increase that to keep those coaches. And I assume we will.

My point is simply that you guys may be trying to create a problem where there isn't one yet.

I'm advocating BEING AN SEC TEAM. PERIOD. "Creating a problem where there isn't one yet" -- we're already 14th in the SEC in assistant salaries THIS YEAR. The problem already exists -- and has for my ENTIRE life. Your refusal to see it is mind boggling. You can spout your proven/unproven -- got them so that's what they are worth -- bs all you want. It's falling on deaf ears. Ole Miss's assistants have been there TWO TOTAL years. They've gotten raises both years -- and got a larger raise this year than MSU has give to assistant coaches in the history of the school. That isn't hitting on crap. Reason your way around it all you want to.

Hey, UCF gets their assistants for cheaper than us -- so there's a perfect example of why it's best to pay less money for assistant coaches!!1!1

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

I'm advocating BEING AN SEC TEAM. PERIOD. "Creating a problem where there isn't one yet" -- we're already 14th in the SEC in assistant salaries THIS YEAR. The problem already exists -- and has for my ENTIRE life. Your refusal to see it is mind boggling. You can spout your proven/unproven -- got them so that's what they are worth -- bs all you want. It's falling on deaf ears. Ole Miss's assistants have been there TWO TOTAL years. They've gotten raises both years -- and got a larger raise this year than MSU has give to assistant coaches in the history of the school. That isn't hitting on crap. Reason your way around it all you want to.

Hey, UCF gets their assistants for cheaper than us -- so there's a perfect example of why it's best to pay less money for assistant coaches!!1!1

Dear lord. It's not hard to grasp what he's saying - he believes that the market rate for a first year, unproven DC is NOT the same as the market rate for a proven DC. He hasn't said that our coordinators should not be compensated what they are worth.

For the record, I agree with him. If you HAVE to pay a DC $500k, then fine - go hire a proven one. But if you really like the guy who was the DBs coach at Troy and want him to be your DC, there is absolutely no need to overpay by $200k for that guy. If he is as good as you believe he will be, then by all means, pump that salary each year as he proves his worth.

The two of you have turned this into a never ending argument just for the sake of "never being wrong". breesus.

[dparker]

I'm not going to wade too deeply into this salary discussion but I want to put this out there. What happens when everyone tries to pay their people the average salary? I'm not going to take the time to calculate it but I'd bet if we paid all of our coaches the current SEC average, that average would instantly become about $100k higher.

Somehow I doubt if the title 'assistant coach' was replaced with 'CEO' there wouldn't be as much arguing that to get someone competent enough you have to always pay at least the average. This thinking is exactly how their salaries ran away. My opinion is performance based pay is the way to go. Give incentives that will get the coaches higher than their peers if they produce better results.

[smootness]

Dear lord. It's not hard to grasp what he's saying - he believes that the market rate for a first year, unproven DC is NOT the same as the market rate for a proven DC. He hasn't said that our coordinators should not be compensated what they are worth.

For the record, I agree with him. If you HAVE to pay a DC $500k, then fine - go hire a proven one. But if you really like the guy who was the DBs coach at Troy and want him to be your DC, there is absolutely no need to overpay by $200k for that guy. If he is as good as you believe he will be, then by all means, pump that salary each year as he proves his worth.

The two of you have turned this into a never ending argument just for the sake of "never being wrong". breesus.

Thank you. This is exactly what I'm saying. I may not have articulated it well and tried to go too deep in explaning it, and if so, I'm sorry about that.

I'm really not trying to just 'not be wrong'. I enjoy discussions like this, and I have an opinion and will share it. At some point, you're right, it's best if we just say, 'We don't agree' and drop it. But I didn't feel like he was understanding my point.

[engie]

For the record, I agree with him. If you HAVE to pay a DC $500k, then fine - go hire a proven one. But if you really like the guy who was the DBs coach at Troy and want him to be your DC, there is absolutely no need to overpay by $200k for that guy. If he is as good as you believe he will be, then by all means, pump that salary each year as he proves his worth.

This is virtually my ENTIRE POINT. I feel like MSU should be past the days of hiring DB coaches from Troy as coordinators. We do not have to do that anymore -- and it's stupid to take that risk when there is NOTHING preventing us from going and grabbing sure things.

I'm not arguing that the DB coach at Troy is worth $500k as a coordinator. I'm arguing that the defensive coordinator at Mississippi State should be worth AT LEAST that every year -- and if he was -- we wouldn't be hiring out of the damn Sun Belt with our fingers crossed anymore -- nor would we be worried that we could lose that coach to 75 different potential lateral moves.

[SallyStansbury]

I think we have a situation with Collins kicking ass with a very low salary. That makes other high level teams think they can come in a steal him for their own as DC or mid level teams think they can come take him as a head coach, because at the level we are paying him now, that makes perfect sense.

Collins is probably considering those two options right now if a hefty raise has not been promised, because it hasn't been announced.

I tend to agree with Hack and Engie that it is far better to tell Collins he is the king, double his salary, and make him feel loved and appreciated. Doing otherwise would make him very much more likely to consider DC at UGA, head coach at some piddly wink school, both of which would be big raises for him. It is better for him to be happy and not looking than underpaid and looking. That is where we are now, not debating what he was worth a year ago. Give the raise now, not when he has gone through the interview process at some other place......because at that point he is partially gone. proactive/reactive

Pay the man, yesterday.

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

I think we have a situation with Collins kicking ass with a very low salary. That makes other high level teams think they can come in a steal him for their own as DC or mid level teams think they can come take him as a head coach, because at the level we are paying him now, that makes perfect sense.

Pay the man, yesterday.

I agree that Collins has earned a pretty heft pay raise, and I will be disappointed if he does not get one.

[Barking 13]

just for the sake of discussion, has Collins asked for a raise? Sure, there are folks out there that do what I do for a half pay more than I do, but not in my company, and not where I live... yeah if I lived in ATL, I'd expect more, but I like where I live now.... I have no problem giving him a bump in salary, or any other current coaches, just due to the fact that they are on a history making team. But do you give a guy a 300 - 400K raise just because he had one good year, and because "everybody else does"? Ask the dude how much he thinks he's worth, and negotiate from there.. apparently none of you guys have been in business before...

[engie]

just for the sake of discussion, has Collins asked for a raise? Sure, there are folks out there that do what I do for a half pay more than I do, but not in my company, and not where I live... yeah if I lived in ATL, I'd expect more, but I like where I live now.... I have no problem giving him a bump in salary, or any other current coaches, just due to the fact that they are on a history making team. But do you give a guy a 300 - 400K raise just because he had one good year, and because "everybody else does"? Ask the dude how much he thinks he's worth, and negotiate from there.. apparently none of you guys have been in business before...

You've never run a soon-to-be $100mil/yr enterprise that operates for all intents and purposes as a non-profit either...and I'd venture to guess no one on here has. It's a little different than your average business.

Yes -- you pay them what they are worth or someone else will. Collins is worth $500k with incentives to push him significantly higher than that. The market will soon tell him his value -- and if we let him get to the point -- he's got one foot out the door already.

Notice how every team in the country flirted with Mullen when he was making $1.2 here -- but we haven't had a damn bit of noise on that front since we paid the man? I want the same thing to happen with Collins. At least in terms of taking another DC job elsewhere.

[FISHDAWG]

Ask the dude how much he thinks he's worth, and negotiate from there.. apparently none of you guys have been in business before...[/QUOTE]

I have advanced my career by stepping up when THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES ... several times when I gave notice the employers countered ... I told them if it took something like this to get a raise then I wont even consider the counter ..... yes, I've been in the business world over 30 years ........ don't wait, pay the man now !!

[Barking 13]

Ask the dude how much he thinks he's worth, and negotiate from there.. apparently none of you guys have been in business before...

I have advanced my career by stepping up when THE OPPORTUNITY ARISES ... several times when I gave notice the employers countered ... I told them if it took something like this to get a raise then I wont even consider the counter ..... yes, I've been in the business world over 30 years ........ don't wait, pay the man now !![/QUOTE]

I get it.... but he's a first year DC that had a decent year.. if we had won the NC, different story... I want to keep him just as much as anybody... but in business, anyway, sometimes you have to gig the higher ups to get a bump.... like you and I have.. you must have been happy or you would have been in the wind...

[engie]

I get it.... but he's a first year DC that had a decent year.. if we had won the NC, different story... I want to keep him just as much as anybody... but in business, anyway, sometimes you have to gig the higher ups to get a bump.... like you and I have.. you must have been happy or you would have been in the wind...

A "decent" year?

If you call our best total defense ranking since 1999 as "decent" -- with one of our youngest teams in that timespan -- then I guess that's what it was.

[Barking 13]

agreed...