Baseball Hall of Fame

[Will James]

These current voters/writers are making this a joke. It's going to be severely backlogged in a few years.

Bagwell, Schilling, Edgar Martinez, Biggio, Trammel, Clemens, Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Piazza Mussina, and Raines

All of these players should be in now. Even if you take out the bold ones for steroids (they're still HOFers) that leaves 7 that should be in but arent.

Pedro, Randy, Smoltz go on the ballot next year and should be automatic. So that rounds out the 10 allowed with some of the greatest ever not even counting.

[shoeless joe]

I tend to agree with what Harold Reynolds said last nite, and that is that it should be difficult to get into the HOF. I do think that some of the voters are making a mockery of the process by taking these "stands" that serve no purpose other than to garner attention to themselves.

None of the guys on the list that didn't get in are sure fire HOFers. There are quite a few that should be in the discussion but I think the voters got it right yesterday and the 3 that were completely deserving of first ballot status got in.

[Homedawg]

Well u can scratch palmeiro he won't be on the ballot again

[smootness]

The steroid issue just is what it is. If some voters want to leave them out, I'm fine with it. And Bagwell is included in that list, whether you agree with that or not.

As for the rest of the list, if I were voting I would probably vote for Trammel and Schilling and leave the rest off. I just don't consider 'very good player for a long time' enough to get into the HOF.

I've never seen Biggio as a HOFer. Edgar Martinez was a great hitter, and I wouldn't be up in arms if he were voted in, but I wouldn't. Mussina is akin to Biggio...very good pitcher for a while, then good for a long time, but not a HOFer to me.

I'm picky, though. I think a HOFer should generally be a guy who is clearly a HOFer; once you have to sit and debate it, I lean toward 'no'.

[Cabo32]

I agree with you will...also another guy I think should get some consideration...Larry walker

[smootness]

Oh, and I wouldn't vote for Sosa or McGwire, with or without steroids.

[Todd4State]

Oh, and I wouldn't vote for Sosa or McGwire, with or without steroids.

Really? McGwire retired in the top 10 all time on the home run list. As did Sosa.

[smootness]

Really? McGwire retired in the top 10 all time on the home run list. As did Sosa.

I know. But a) I don't care all that much about home runs by themselves, and while both players had a huge run for a while, they weren't good enough as overall baseball players for me to consider them HOFers.

Also, b) while I'm ok with someone who doesn't think steroids should factor in, I think they have to at some point, and Sosa and McGwire would qualify, so I guess that does factor in somewhat to my opinion.

I mean, when you put up just stupid cartoon numbers that are complete outliers with the rest of baseball history, and you do it out of nowhere at a point in your career when you should be declining, I can't really ever consider that legitimate in my own head.

Going to the NBA, imagine if a player like Lance Stephenson suddenly started dunking from the 3-point line, racking up 3's whenever he wanted, and scored 50+ points/game for 5 straight years in his mid-30s...then it came out later that he had discovered some new pill that made your legs crazy strong...would we really consider that guy a HOFer in basketball, or would he be outcast as he should be?

[Coach34]

Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux not getting 100% of the vote shows how ridiculous the process is. Bottom line- some guys are just sure-fire HOF'ers

[smootness]

Nolan Ryan and Greg Maddux not getting 100% of the vote shows how ridiculous the process is. Bottom line- some guys are just sure-fire HOF'ers

Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Williams are even more ridiculous than that. Nolan Ryan is a clear HOFer but his career was definitely somewhat overrated.

[bully99]

Smoot I think everybody is overrated to you. Baseball writers have always been some of the nastier people around.
In 1947 Ted Williams won the triple crown and lost the MVP because some writers didn't out him on their ballot or put him much lower than he should have been. Boo Ferriss could probably tell some stories about that.

[Todd4State]

I know. But a) I don't care all that much about home runs by themselves, and while both players had a huge run for a while, they weren't good enough as overall baseball players for me to consider them HOFers.

Also, b) while I'm ok with someone who doesn't think steroids should factor in, I think they have to at some point, and Sosa and McGwire would qualify, so I guess that does factor in somewhat to my opinion.

I mean, when you put up just stupid cartoon numbers that are complete outliers with the rest of baseball history, and you do it out of nowhere at a point in your career when you should be declining, I can't really ever consider that legitimate in my own head.

Going to the NBA, imagine if a player like Lance Stephenson suddenly started dunking from the 3-point line, racking up 3's whenever he wanted, and scored 50+ points/game for 5 straight years in his mid-30s...then it came out later that he had discovered some new pill that made your legs crazy strong...would we really consider that guy a HOFer in basketball, or would he be outcast as he should be?

So, you have to be a five tool guy and totally dominate the sport to be a HOF? I'm disregarding your last paragraph since you initially said with or without steroids. If you hit home enough home runs and there are less than 20 guys in MLB history as good as you at doing it, I think you should be in. McGwire also won a Gold Glove at first base and his numbers are actually worse than they were when you consider how many seasons that were a virtual wash because of injury. A players prime is between 23-36 in general. McGwire and Sosa's best seasons were in that range. It's not like they were 40 and hitting 73 home runs.

Sosa should be in as well. I may be mistaken, but I believe he had a 20/20 season off the top of my head.

[shoeless joe]

So, you have to be a five tool guy and totally dominate the sport to be a HOF? I'm disregarding your last paragraph since you initially said with or without steroids. If you hit home enough home runs and there are less than 20 guys in MLB history as good as you at doing it, I think you should be in. McGwire also won a Gold Glove at first base and his numbers are actually worse than they were when you consider how many seasons that were a virtual wash because of injury. A players prime is between 23-36 in general. McGwire and Sosa's best seasons were in that range. It's not like they were 40 and hitting 73 home runs.

Sosa should be in as well. I may be mistaken, but I believe he had a 20/20 season off the top of my head.

Fairly certain he had a 30/30 season with the cubs

[LiterallyPolice]

I have no problem keeping proven steroid users out of the HOF. They cheated, and they got caught. That calls into question their entire body of work... not just those homeruns, etc, that were hit in seasons where it was proven they were juicing. Not to mention, it's just not fair to the other players who didn't use steroids.

Some may say.... well Bonds was good at everything! Steroids can't teach you hit a baseball! He would have been a HOFer without steroids! Well I guess we'll never know; that's all speculation. What did happen is that he cheated and got caught.

Some may say... MLB has a history of cheaters! There are admitted cheaters in the HOF! Well, they shouldn't have gotten in either. Two wrongs don't make a right, etc.

And Sosa.... Sosa was/is a disgrace. The dude juiced and corked his bat.

[smootness]

Smoot I think everybody is overrated to you.

The heck? Do I have a history of this? Who else have I said is overrated?

[Rick Danko]

Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Williams are even more ridiculous than that. Nolan Ryan is a clear HOFer but his career was definitely somewhat overrated.

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Is your real name Robin Ventura? An unhittable pitcher the MAJORITY of his career (and by that I mean 90% of) (and no I am not taking the time to look up the damn stats) and you have the balls to sit behind a computer screen and call his career somewhat overrated. Seek medical help man.

[smootness]

So, you have to be a five tool guy and totally dominate the sport to be a HOF? I'm disregarding your last paragraph since you initially said with or without steroids. If you hit home enough home runs and there are less than 20 guys in MLB history as good as you at doing it, I think you should be in. McGwire also won a Gold Glove at first base and his numbers are actually worse than they were when you consider how many seasons that were a virtual wash because of injury. A players prime is between 23-36 in general. McGwire and Sosa's best seasons were in that range. It's not like they were 40 and hitting 73 home runs.

Sosa should be in as well. I may be mistaken, but I believe he had a 20/20 season off the top of my head.

Fair enough; I did initially say 'with or without steroids' and then I realized I'm not sure I can ever truly give an evaluation without considering steroids at all, at least for guys like that, and that may even cloud my judgement when trying to look at what they did in comparison with other guys.

But I would question the general statement that 'a player's prime is between 23-36'. Some players may be able to sustain a high level of play into their later 30s, but I would guess those guys are more the aberration than the rule. But regardless of that, how many players actually got significantly better once they hit their early- to mid-30s? I would guess the number is extremely few, and I would guess essentially all of them coincidentally played in the 'steroid era'.

I guess I just can't ever overlook that. There's no way I could vote for a guy knowing that a lot the numbers that put him into the conversation are cartoonish because he cheated. I think there is some legitimacy to my Stephenson metaphor even though it was hyperbole.

I still do, though, think what they actually did, on the field, is somewhat overrated, though (sorry, bully99, maybe I do think every player to ever play the game is overrated). I never thought either Sosa or McGwire was the best in the game for any stretch of time.

I don't think you have to be a 5-tool guy or dominate the sport to be in the HOF, but I do probably have a higher level I think you should reach than most. I think you need to be at least among the best few in the game for an extended period of time; or to be so brilliant for a short period of time that you can't deny them (Koufax comes to mind here). Admittedly, I don't have any concrete valuations I do, as no one does; it's all subjective, but I think the HOF should be reserved for the absolute best of the best, and I'm not sure those guys were.

[smootness]

[/B]

That is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Is your real name Robin Ventura? An unhittable pitcher the MAJORITY of his career (and by that I mean 90% of) (and no I am not taking the time to look up the damn stats) and you have the balls to sit behind a computer screen and call his career somewhat overrated. Seek medical help man.

Nolan Ryan was a really, really good pitcher for a really, really long time and is a no-doubt HOFer. No question about it. But a lot of people think he was one of the top 5 or so pitchers of all-time, and he just wasn't.

Do I have to have played MLB to have that opinion?

He definitely was unhittable a lot of the time. He also walked a crap ton of guys, and that is part of pitching. The number one goal of pitching is to keep people from scoring, and he wasn't as good at that as some others. The guy never won a CY Young award. Awards aren't everything and are subjective (Gold Gloves are the worst), but that should say something. The people who vote on that never once considered him the best pitcher in his league. Great picher, great career, capable of going an entire game without anyone putting much of the bat on the ball at all. All of those things are true...but all in all, he wasn't quite as good as some think. And that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard?

[bully99]

Lebatard has been permanently banned from HOF voting.

[Saltydog]

Some of those guys listed unfortunately will never make it to Cooperstown and that's sad because all are worthy IMO..........BTW, you forgot about Larry Walker.........

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-players-hall-fame-baseball-2012-1?op=1

[Todd4State]

Fair enough; I did initially say 'with or without steroids' and then I realized I'm not sure I can ever truly give an evaluation without considering steroids at all, at least for guys like that, and that may even cloud my judgement when trying to look at what they did in comparison with other guys.

But I would question the general statement that 'a player's prime is between 23-36'. Some players may be able to sustain a high level of play into their later 30s, but I would guess those guys are more the aberration than the rule. But regardless of that, how many players actually got significantly better once they hit their early- to mid-30s? I would guess the number is extremely few, and I would guess essentially all of them coincidentally played in the 'steroid era'.

I guess I just can't ever overlook that. There's no way I could vote for a guy knowing that a lot the numbers that put him into the conversation are cartoonish because he cheated. I think there is some legitimacy to my Stephenson metaphor even though it was hyperbole.

I still do, though, think what they actually did, on the field, is somewhat overrated, though (sorry, bully99, maybe I do think every player to ever play the game is overrated). I never thought either Sosa or McGwire was the best in the game for any stretch of time.

I don't think you have to be a 5-tool guy or dominate the sport to be in the HOF, but I do probably have a higher level I think you should reach than most. I think you need to be at least among the best few in the game for an extended period of time; or to be so brilliant for a short period of time that you can't deny them (Koufax comes to mind here). Admittedly, I don't have any concrete valuations I do, as no one does; it's all subjective, but I think the HOF should be reserved for the absolute best of the best, and I'm not sure those guys were.

Ever wonder why teams are leery of signing a player past the age of 36 and it's almost always age 36? Like I said- it's a general rule and there are exceptions both ways. But in MLB, that's "the rule".

The steroid era was an era in baseball- it's no different than the Dead Ball ERA, the Live Ball era, the 80's, etc. Baseball is different and you have to compare players to their contemporaries relative to each era. You can't really accurately compare Cy Young to Greg Maddux. You can't compare Ty Cobb to Babe Ruth. We know a lot of players used steroids in the 90's. They were all competing against each other while using said steroids. You can say that there were some exceptions like Maddux and Galvine, but the honest truth is we really don't know whether they or anyone else was really using them other than those that have admitted using them. I've always found it amusing that Tim Laker and Wilton Guerrero were found guilty of using steroids and they both sucked as players.

But in the late 90's, there was no doubt that McGwire and Sosa were two of the top 10 players in MLB at that point. I'd consider hitting 58, 70, and then 65 home runs as McGwire did to be pretty brilliant- along with the fact he held the rookie record of 49.

I don't think the HOF should be about who is the absolute top of the line best of the best- heck if you think McGwire and Sosa don't belong just on merit alone (again- going by raw numbers and neglecting steroid use for a minute) then your standards are way too high. We're talking about guys setting single season home run records and doing things that NO ONE has ever done in baseball history. It should be about who the best players are- and I would MUCH rather prefer it be like the NBA HOF than what it is now.

It's gotten to be too much about who has certain milestones and whether you might have suspected someone used steroids or not. And needs to be about whether you were considered among the best in the game at a certain point in time. Put Jack Morris, Alan Trammell, Dale Murphy, etc in.

[Rick Danko]

Nolan Ryan was a really, really good pitcher for a really, really long time and is a no-doubt HOFer. No question about it. But a lot of people think he was one of the top 5 or so pitchers of all-time, and he just wasn't.

Do I have to have played MLB to have that opinion?

He definitely was unhittable a lot of the time. He also walked a crap ton of guys, and that is part of pitching. The number one goal of pitching is to keep people from scoring, and he wasn't as good at that as some others. The guy never won a CY Young award. Awards aren't everything and are subjective (Gold Gloves are the worst), but that should say something. The people who vote on that never once considered him the best pitcher in his league. Great picher, great career, capable of going an entire game without anyone putting much of the bat on the ball at all. All of those things are true...but all in all, he wasn't quite as good as some think. And that's the dumbest thing you've ever heard?

Babe Ruth also had the most strikeouts a lot of the time. Fact is, some players have an it factor that makes them a no question HOF candidate. Ryan was a dominating pitcher of his time and held many records, many of which still stand today. I don't know his career E.R.A. or year by year stats, and as I stated, I'm not going to look them up. But certain players are the name of their time/era and for pitchers, there was a great deal of time he was IT. First ballot 100% vote HOF guy, period.

[MetEdDawg]

I think the bigger problem is that some of these idiot voters voted for guys like Jacque Jones, Armando Benitez, Kenny Rogers, JT Snow, Eric Gagne, Hideo Nomo, and Moises Alou. None of these guys even deserve a sniff at the Hall of Fame. Good careers for some, but it's ridiculous who some of these voters believe are Hall of Fame worthy. It's an embarrassment to baseball that we have people who won't vote for Greg Maddux just because he played in the Steroid Era, but guys like Jacque Jones can get a vote from someone. It's stupid.

[Will James]

I really don't get the Mussina hate. He is one of the top 40 pitchers of all time. A HOF LOCK if it wasn't for idiot voters.

[smootness]

Babe Ruth also had the most strikeouts a lot of the time. Fact is, some players have an it factor that makes them a no question HOF candidate. Ryan was a dominating pitcher of his time and held many records, many of which still stand today. I don't know his career E.R.A. or year by year stats, and as I stated, I'm not going to look them up. But certain players are the name of their time/era and for pitchers, there was a great deal of time he was IT. First ballot 100% vote HOF guy, period.

I said that he was a no-doubt HOFer. 100%, I have no idea, but the bottom line is, nobody has ever been gotten 100% of the vote and yes, that is dumb. My point was that you should get upset over far more guys than Nolan Ryan before you get to him on the 100% beef.

[Dawg61]

If Barry Bonds isn't a HOF then NOBODY is. He's by far the best hitter I've ever seen and I believe is the greatest baseball player of ALL-TIME. The guy set the record for homeruns the same year he shattered the record for walks. That's like LeBron setting the record for most 3's hit while attempting 200 less than the previous holder. I wasn't aware of him ever testing positive for steroids either. When did that happen? Can you link it please? He said he'd been given the "clear" against his knowledge. It's a travesty imo that McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, Bonds etc are being shunned by baseball when it's these guys that baseball desperately needed to attract the fans back to the game after the strike. They brought the fans back in droves. The guys that took steroids don't disgust me it's the nose in the air assholes that are voting that do. The baseball HOF is a ****ing joke. It's a "cool kids" party that has lost its significance.

[Todd4State]

If Barry Bonds isn't a HOF then NOBODY is. He's by far the best hitter I've ever seen and I believe is the greatest baseball player of ALL-TIME. The guy set the record for homeruns the same year he shattered the record for walks. That's like LeBron setting the record for most 3's hit while attempting 200 less than the previous holder. I wasn't aware of him ever testing positive for steroids either. When did that happen? Can you link it please? He said he'd been given the "clear" against his knowledge. It's a travesty imo that McGwire, Clemens, Sosa, Bonds etc are being shunned by baseball when it's these guys that baseball desperately needed to attract the fans back to the game after the strike. They brought the fans back in droves. The guys that took steroids don't disgust me it's the nose in the air assholes that are voting that do. The baseball HOF is a ****ing joke. It's a "cool kids" party that has lost its significance.

I don't think baseball as an industry has a problem with them. McGwire is back as a hitting coach- and if he was blackballed, he wouldn't be back. That's just one example.

The problem is the HOF is entirely voted on by sportswriters. In other words- people like the "experts" on ESPN that didn't actually play the game. It's a shame that former players and fans don't have a say. (Well, until a player doesn't make the cut after 15 years)

[bully99]

Palmeiro would not become eligible on the veterans committee until 2026. No idea what that would look like then, but they're more against him than the writers.

[Dawg61]

It's just not right what baseball is doing to some of these players. Look at Palmeiro. From what we hear Palmeiro has become a complete recluse and the steroids "ban" has ruined his life. That's not fair. Enough is enough. And baseball has gone WAY TOO FAR in their punishment to players that played from 1990ish till today. It's not like Palmeiro was sticking needles in himself and playing baseball games all roided out for his entire career. Baseball needs to use more common sense. I don't even buy that he took steroids ever. They just wanted to burn him because he embarrassed Congress. They haven't proven shit. It's all circumstantial evidence that would be thrown out of court. The burden is on baseball to PROVE they took steroids repeatedly throughout their entire career to dismiss their accomplishments on the field. They can't do that so they shouldn't be allowed to. The real crime here is what baseball is continuing to do. It's bullshit. Let everyone in that deserves it from their on the field play. Not letting players in because they think they took steroids or because nobody likes them is complete horseshit. They let Frank Thomas in but not Barry Bonds? Really? Frank Thomas is ****ing GIGANTIC. If anybody looks like they took steroids it's Frank Thomas. Yet nobody says a peep about him taking steroids. It's not fair to accuse Thomas of taking steroids. I agree. So why's it ok to accuse Sammy Sosa and banish him for life? It's not.

[bully99]

I've said many times that Palmeiro was my favorite player at State. Watched him many times as a student at State. I've heard the same things about Palmeiro and his life. He has become a recluse and a pariah in Texas. Even heard a few months ago a rumor that he and his wife might move back to Mississippi now that his two sons are grown. Doubt that happens but would be treated better here than Texas.

Todd you are wrong. Palmeiro has been blackballed out of baseball. He's toxic. In Baltimore and Texas where he played mostly he's pretty much been wiped clean from ever playing there. It's as if he never existed. He has no chance of coaching or working in pro ball or even amateur ball. Some of the crap I've read the past few days is just sick. You would think the guy is an axe killer with some of the bile written about him.

A's far as Mark Mcgwire, he got back in baseball because Tony Larussa had the gravitas and clout to hire him. He didn't fail a test and so call "wag his finger "at congress. Big difference in the two situations. I doubt Buck Showalter hires Palmeiro as hitting Coach.

[Coach34]

Nolan Ryan is a clear HOFer but his career was definitely somewhat overrated.

All-time strikeout leader by almost 1,000 K's over 2nd place (absolutely incredible to me)
7 No's-No's- will never be broken
12 one-hitters (tied for 1st)
18 2 hitters
Single season strikeout record- 383 (will never be broken)
Struck out 15 or more 26 times (2nd all-time)

There is absolutely nothing overrated about Nolan Ryan's career. His career is really underrated because of all the shitty teams he played on. Had he played for some better teams, he would have been a 400 game winner in the modern era. He was one of baseball's most dominant pitchers- and the hardest to hit. His longevity for a power pitcher is unlike anybody that has ever played the game.

[smootness]

All-time strikeout leader by almost 1,000 K's over 2nd place (absolutely incredible to me)
7 No's-No's- will never be broken
12 one-hitters (tied for 1st)
18 2 hitters
Single season strikeout record- 383 (will never be broken)
Struck out 15 or more 26 times (2nd all-time)

There is absolutely nothing overrated about Nolan Ryan's career. His career is really underrated because of all the shitty teams he played on. Had he played for some better teams, he would have been a 400 game winner in the modern era. He was one of baseball's most dominant pitchers- and the hardest to hit. His longevity for a power pitcher is unlike anybody that has ever played the game.

I don't dismiss anything he did. He was a great pitcher. I guess my 'overrated' claim comes from talking to too many people who consider him the best, or at least a top 5, pitcher of all-time and I absolutely disagree with that.

I'm not trying to diminish what he did, though. Again, he was a great pitcher and is a no-doubt HOFer. I would just put guys like Koufax, Maddux, Gibson, Matthewson, Carlton, Seaver, Marichal ahead of him.

I'll say this. If I could get any pitcher and guarantee he was at his best for one game, I would probably take Nolan Ryan.

[Will James]

I'm not trying to diminish what he did, though. Again, he was a great pitcher and is a no-doubt HOFer. I would just put guys like Koufax, Maddux, Gibson, Matthewson, Carlton, Seaver, Marichal ahead of him.

Throw Pedro and Clemens in there too

[smootness]

Throw Pedro and Clemens in there too

Agreed.

[Coach34]

I'm not trying to diminish what he did, though. Again, he was a great pitcher and is a no-doubt HOFer. I would just put guys like Koufax, Maddux, Gibson, Matthewson, Carlton, Seaver, Marichal ahead of him.

If Ryan had pitched on the higher mound for his career like Koufax and Gibson did you wouldnt. Ryan may have thrown 15 No-hitters. That gets lost alot when talking about pitchers

[smootness]

If Ryan had pitched on the higher mound for his career like Koufax and Gibson did you wouldnt. Ryan may have thrown 15 No-hitters. That gets lost alot when talking about pitchers

At his best, Ryan was as good as anybody's ever been. But I'm still comparing pitchers to their own eras. There was a larger gap between Koufax and Gibson and their peers than between Ryan and his peers.

So no, that didn't 'get lost' and yes, I would still say that had Ryan pitched with a higher mound. Because all the other pitchers who pitched when he did would have also pitched from the higher mound.

[Dawg61]

So who needs to stand up for Palmeiro? It's not going to be MLB or the Orioles. I think it has to be us. Mississippi State University. I'm all for it. He's being treated unfairly and everyone is just sitting on their hands about it.

[smootness]

So who needs to stand up for Palmeiro? It's not going to be MLB or the Orioles. I think it has to be us. Mississippi State University. I'm all for it. He's being treated unfairly and everyone is just sitting on their hands about it.

What, exactly, is he being treated unfairly about? Is he being treated differently than Bonds, Clemens, ARod, etc?

He tested positive, that's just a fact. Stinks, and I'll continue to remember his career fondly, but it is what it is.

[Dawg61]

None of those players attended MSU. Palmeiro did. We should ask him to coach. 2c