quality coach Frank Martin and SC gets blown out at home tonight

[Coach34]

by Manhattan 86-68...SC moves to 2-4 on the season.

How can a good coach and known name like Frank Martin be having trouble in year 2 at SC????? Can he not recruit???? I heard from the Stands-Lovers any new coach should be able to have recruited by year 2 and be winning alot by now-even if you had hit rock bottom

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

Is there a reason that you are such a big Rick Ray fan? I can understand the hating Stansbury part, but I and many others don't know why you love Rick Ray so much.

[HailState39110]

I'm beginning to think you just can't win at South Carolina. Eddie Fogler won at Vandy and couldn't do it. Dave Odom couldn't do it and he was a helluva coach at Wake Forest (I know he had Tim Duncan). Then the Western Kentucky guy couldn't do it . frank Martin will be next in line

[engie]

Noticed the same.

We are about to be what? 3 wins away from our win total last year?

[engie]

I'm beginning to think you just can't win at South Carolina. Eddie Fogler won at Vandy and couldn't do it. Dave Odom couldn't do it and he was a helluva coach at Wake Forest (I know he had Tim Duncan). Then the Western Kentucky guy couldn't do it . frank Martin will be next in line

Or maybe -- even with good recruiting(which Martin has had), it simply takes longer than 2 years to rise from the bottom?

The folly is in people thinking there is very much that they can take from Ray's first 2 years. In the exact same way there wasn't much we could take from Cohen's first 2.

[Coach34]

Is there a reason that you are such a big Rick Ray fan?.

How can you not be a Rick Ray fan at this point? He did a helluva job last year, and we are 7-2 now this year

[Raytoraid83]

1. Manhattan is the best team in the MAAC and is gonna make the tournament. Should a SEC team lose to them by 20 at home? No but they are no push over
2. Frank Martin signed the best player out of oak hill academy
3. South Carolina has had no recent or any basketball success

He's showing signs of improvement from year one to year two. They played ok st, Baylor to two points, and Clemson. Those aren't bad losses

[JOHNHEVESYMADE]

So my next question to coach is where do you see Rick Ray taking MSU? Do you see him taking us to the NCAA? If so when? Do you think Ray is recruiting at a high enough caliber to make the NCAA's?

[Jacksondevildog]

Agree with what you say, Coach, but Ray will have to make a decision soon if he will play the game or not in recruiting.

[Coach34]

So my next question to coach is where do you see Rick Ray taking MSU? Do you see him taking us to the NCAA? If so when? Do you think Ray is recruiting at a high enough caliber to make the NCAA's?

Those questions have yet to be answered. Have to let it play out. You may as accept that the Admin doesnt even count last year. This is basically Year 1 for him and we will see where he takes us the next 3 years

[engie]

If he doesn't make the NCAAs in 4 years, he better be knocking on the door with hope for more -- or his seat will be scolding hot. If he isn't damn close, he will be gone.

I start holding him to Stansbury standards next year. Just like I started holding Cohen to McMahon standards in year 3.(in other words -- above what it expected from Polk pos-1990)

[MetEdDawg]

You and me might be the only ones fully on the Rick Ray bandwagon coach. I've liked him from day 1, but I, unlike most on here, just feel that expecting a ton of success with this group is stupid. This will be a baby step up from last year. Maybe 3-4 wins more. We are still young and playing with a bunch of guys that will still be here when they are seniors. That isn't a recipe for success right now, but it can be in 2 years (year 4) when all of these guys are seniors and juniors.

Obviously he needs to recruit better, but he's got to have time to fully implement his system and not have to deal with attrition, which regardless of what anyone has said, is going to hurt us this year with Steele and Lewis leaving. We are still learning and Ray is still learning, but we are improved from last year. We haven't lost the bad game yet.

Ray needs time and I'm behind him until he proves me wrong. We are 3 wins away from last year's total and we still have 20 games left to play. I think we will outperform last year. By how much is still left to be determined, but if we can get to 14-15, we should view that as a success from where we were.

[engie]

I still think we've got a chance to get to 16-17 wins...

People need to remember that Stansbury only won 14 in year 2 with a team he'd already been building for the better part of a decade.

[TopDog58]

So my next question to coach is where do you see Rick Ray taking MSU? Do you see him taking us to the NCAA? If so when? Do you think Ray is recruiting at a high enough caliber to make the NCAA's?

Sweet 16 in year four, easily. We will be fighting off schools to keep him starting next year

[mic]

Is there a reason that you are such a big Rick Ray fan? I can understand the hating Stansbury part, but I and many others don't know why you love Rick Ray so much.

I and many others wonder if you had rather RR fail than win games..

[chef dixon]

The team has definitely improved. We just really really sucked last year.

[Bo Darville]

I'm a Rick Ray fan. Stansbury let Sidney, Bost, and others destroy the program. The program was in worse shape than many want to admit. The guy deserves a chance.

[TheRef]

I'm a big Ray supporter, as some of you have noticed. I predict a 16-15 record this year overall.

[Coach34]

I still think we've got a chance to get to 16-17 wins...

People need to remember that Stansbury only won 14 in year 2 with a team he'd already been building for the better part of a decade.

Yep- Stands did that in Year 2 with a team he had recruited- 5 SEC wins that year

[smootness]

You and me might be the only ones fully on the Rick Ray bandwagon coach.

Uh, count me in that group.

[chef dixon]

I'm a Rick Ray fan. Stansbury let Sidney, Bost, and others destroy the program. The program was in worse shape than many want to admit. The guy deserves a chance.

Not sure why so many people hate D Bost. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good bulldawg. He played hard and really was the motor of our squad for a long time. I enjoyed watching him play at least.

[HailState39110]

Like you say, let's let this thing play out . We are SWAC champs right now and that's not anything to boast about

[NewTweederEndzoneDance]

Is there a reason that you are such a big Rick Ray fan? I can understand the hating Stansbury part, but I and many others don't know why you love Rick Ray so much.

Is there a reason you hate Rick Ray so much?

[smootness]

I don't get the OP, btw. I was told on here that in just year 2, Frank Martin had already built that program into being competitive. Sure, it was only based on one game, a game they actually lost, but that doesn't matter. SC is now a force to be reckoned with, and it's a shame Ray can't do the same here.

[thf24]

Not sure why so many people hate D Bost. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good bulldawg. He played hard and really was the motor of our squad for a long time. I enjoyed watching him play at least.

He was a good bulldog on the court... not so much off of it. From what I've heard, he was a worse locker room cancer than Sidney.

[Bo Darville]

Not sure why so many people hate D Bost. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good bulldawg. He played hard and really was the motor of our squad for a long time. I enjoyed watching him play at least.

Bost did more to destroy the program than maybe anyone. He tried to destroy it from within. He's a horrible leader. You have no idea what went on in the locker room, the dorm, the apartment, or on the road in the hotel. I know some things that I would never say on this public forum. He was a terribly destructive force who did more harm than anyone, including Renardo Sidney. He is poison. Stansbury's downfall was letting guys like Sidney and Bost remain on the team. Don't forget he got suspended three times. As one college assistant said "Bost is from North Carolina. There are a lot of colleges between North Carolina and Starkville that all said no thanks."

[Bo Darville]

but that dude was a good bulldawg.

And Chris Benoit was a good father.

[Bo Darville]

but that dude was a good bulldawg.

Honestly, as a huge MSU fan, alum, and supporter, statements like this send my blood pressure through the roof. You have no idea.

It is one reason I am a Rick Ray supporter and willing to give the guy a chance. You have no idea what shape the program was in when it hit rock bottom. I liked Stansbury but it was time for a change.

[Bo Darville]

Not sure why so many people hate D Bost. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good bulldawg.

Not sure why so many people hate Ryan Leaf. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good Charger.

Sincerely,
Charger season ticket holder

[MarketingBully01]

Yep, that's why I thought it was a mistake for Martin to go there and it truely shows how much of a shit hole USC is in basketball. That is my take away from it. The 7-2 record is done with one of the easiest schedules I have ever seen. We shouldn't have lost to TCU so we should be 8-1. The schedule we have should gaurentee him close to 20 wins if he is anywhere near as good a coach as you guys claim. The SEC is terrible and is really only a 3-bid league. But I digress. If he can get to 20 wins, maybe he could turn this thing around. I still think he needs to wholesale fire his assistants and get recruiters, coaches that can teach shooters and big men.

[601Dawg]

My question to all of the loyal Rick Ray supporters: are you guys going to every home game? Are you season ticket holders and making sure butts are in seats for games you can't make? If not it's hurting Ray and our program more than helping him. I really feel bad for our team playing I front of 750-2500 fans in all of our early home games. I'm not sure if it changes much for SEC play even with us having a winning record we don't get UK, Florida or Missouri at home this year so the only big home sec crowd we will have will be OM and last year we probably didn't have more than 5k at that game.

[smootness]

My question to all of the loyal Rick Ray supporters: are you guys going to every home game? Are you season ticket holders and making sure butts are in seats for games you can't make? If not it's hurting Ray and our program more than helping him. I really feel bad for our team playing I front of 750-2500 fans in all of our early home games.

I live in GA, so I can't get there very much. It stinks, and it's why I won't ever criticize anyone for not going to a game.

I agree with you, I wish we had more people there. But I don't blame people for not showing up. Everyone, coaches included, understands that if you're not winning, people won't show up to watch you.

[smootness]

Bost did more to destroy the program than maybe anyone. He tried to destroy it from within. He's a horrible leader. You have no idea what went on in the locker room, the dorm, the apartment, or on the road in the hotel. I know some things that I would never say on this public forum. He was a terribly destructive force who did more harm than anyone, including Renardo Sidney. He is poison. Stansbury's downfall was letting guys like Sidney and Bost remain on the team. Don't forget he got suspended three times. As one college assistant said "Bost is from North Carolina. There are a lot of colleges between North Carolina and Starkville that all said no thanks."

The more I read about that era of State basketball, the more I question the whole 'Stans is buying players' or 'Stans was a great recruiter' mantra.

So let's see here:
Sidney - pretty much nobody wanted him
Bost - not sure how many wanted him, seems like not many
Hood - won that recruiting battle, great get, he's from MS
O'Bryant - didn't get him
Adams - didn't get him
Ross - didn't get him, but I don't fault Stans at all for that one
Ravern - from MS, big headcase for most of his time at State
Kodi Augustus - big headcase for most of his time at State
Monta Ellis - won the recruiting battle, but how many pushed really hard?
Jamont Gordon - won the recruiting battle, clearly a good pull
Charles Rhodes - good pull, but he wasn't extremely highly-recruited

It just seems like the more and more you find out about that era, the more you realize that other teams may have backed off a lot of these guys; we obviously didn't have to pay anything to get a guy like Sidney. It just seems more and more evident that we were able to get talent more because we took a lot of chances on questionable guys than because we were just beating out the top programs in college basketball to get them, especially for the OOS guys.

[Johnson85]

You have no idea what went on in the locker room, the dorm, the apartment, or on the road in the hotel.

Even on the court he was a front runner. There were times he showed energy when things weren't going well and tried to get the team back in it, but just as often he'd feed off the negative energy and make things worse. I still liked him as far as what I saw on the court and think he would have been an asset on a team with some established leaders, but I would not expect any team where he is one of the top two dogs to be particularly successful.

[Bubb Rubb]

by Manhattan 86-68...SC moves to 2-4 on the season.

How can a good coach and known name like Frank Martin be having trouble in year 2 at SC????? Can he not recruit???? I heard from the Stands-Lovers any new coach should be able to have recruited by year 2 and be winning alot by now-even if you had hit rock bottom

There's too much parity in college basketball. Manhattan is a really good mid-major and South Carolina is a middling "major" in a middling conference. I've always said you can't look at won/loss records to determine how well a coach is doing. That is the ultimate measure, and over time, if a coach is successful, that will come. But in the meantime, you have to look at trends. How do they play in wins? How do they play in losses? What mistakes do they make over and over? Are their players getting better?

This was my problem with Stans. It didn't matter what year it was, what team it was, what players were there, etc. We made the same mistakes over and over. Even when our mediocrity was good enough to win the west, you knew the shit was going to hit the fan at some point.

Another great example is Josh Pastner. Watched them against Florida last night. Florida is a good basketball team, but they don't have half the talend that Memphis has. But Pastner is a terrible coach and all of his teams look the same: undisciplned, defensive breakdowns, poor shot selection, and lack of rebounding. Donovan outcoached his ass big-time. People like to crow about Pastner's record, but he's another Stansbury: great at getting the players in, poor at coaching them up and improving, and woefully inadequate on the bench.

Does Frank Martin fall into this description? I haven't watched them enough to say one way or another. But I would give him the benefit of the doubt personally until I could see trends one way or another.

[thf24]

You have no idea what shape the program was in when it hit rock bottom.

I think this is what the non-agenda driven Stans supporters are missing. They assume all they saw in public was all there was to know. They saw us lose a few head scratchers here and there, bring in one bad apple (Sidney) among (apparently) a few mild troublemakers, and endure one national embarrassment (the fight), but still win 20 games consistently and conclude we were doing fine based on that. And they'd be right if the previously mentioned were our only problems. Most just had no idea of what horrific shape the locker room was in, that it was more than just one unlucky recruiting pull with a horrible attitude and lack of motivation, and that a, at the time, fan favorite player was at the heart of it all. Even if rumors were heard, they were dismissed by many as something that just doesn't happen with MSU programs and players (this was my thought at the time, at first), and probably still are by many of those who are protesting the coaching change/purge.

[Bo Darville]

I think this is what the non-agenda driven Stans supporters are missing. They assume all they saw in public was all there was to know. They saw us lose a few head scratchers here and there, bring in one bad apple (Sidney) among (apparently) a few mild troublemakers, and endure one national embarrassment (the fight), but still win 20 games consistently and conclude we were doing fine based on that. And they'd be right if the previously mentioned were our only problems. Most just had no idea of what horrific shape the locker room was in, that it was more than just one unlucky recruiting pull with a horrible attitude and lack of motivation, and that a, at the time, fan favorite player was at the heart of it all. Even if rumors were heard, they were dismissed by many as something that just doesn't happen with MSU programs and players (this was my thought at the time, at first), and probably still are by many of those who are protesting the coaching change/purge.

Great post and you are exactly right. On the surface people thought that booting Sidney off the team would cure everything. But that was far from the truth. Work ethic had eroded. Punctuality was a problem. Factions existed within the locker room. It was a few that wanted to work and achieve versus a bunch that wanted to tell the coaches to "go f**k themselves". The achievers no longer wanted to be part of a locker room that was in such disarray. It was terrible. It needed a full purge. And that was just the easy to fix problems. There were other (worse) problems that I will not discuss in a public forum such as this.

[MadDawg]

Not sure why so many people hate D Bost. Maybe he was a cocky jackass, but that dude was a good bulldawg. He played hard and really was the motor of our squad for a long time. I enjoyed watching him play at least.


We don't want those type of players anymore. We're doing things the right way now.

[C222]

We don't want those type of players anymore. We're doing things the right way now.

So since you hate Rick Ray, what would you like to see happen with our basketball program?

[Bo Darville]

We don't want those type of players anymore. We're doing things the right way now.

Those type of players caused us to hire a new coach, win just a handful of games last year, attendance to plummet, and our best freshman in years (Hood) to transfer. They destroyed a program.

Now tell me again why those type of players are a good idea?

[smootness]

Those type of players caused us to hire a new coach, win just a handful of games last year, attendance to plummet, and our best freshman in years (Hood) to transfer. They destroyed a program.

Now tell me again why those type of players are a good idea?

It's tough for me to tell if some of these fans have an agenda or legitimately can't see the real causes of where we are.

People seem to equate everything about our situation with Rick Ray because he is now the coach. But when Ray stepped in, our program was already at the bottom. Yes, we barely made the NIT in Stans' last year, but even that team was totally gone by the time Ray showed up.

Sidney, gone. Moultrie, gone. Bost, gone, Hood, on his way out the door (I have no idea why people think any hire short of a crazy home run would have kept him). Deville Smith, gone. Brian Bryant, gone. He walked in the door with a roster of Roquez Johnson, Shaun Smith, Kristers Zeidaks, Jalen Steele, Wendell Lewis, and Tyson Cunningham. That was the entire roster. He also had a decent recruiting class lined up that he was able to mostly hang onto and had to add a few late signees. That was the reality of his situation. Partly due to the atmosphere that had been created, he eventually kicked Smith, Zeidaks, Steele, and Lewis off the team.

My point is that he didn't walk in the door with a team that made the NIT and then win 10 games with them. When he walked in the door, Mississippi State was essentially a bad mid-major team. You can say he should have been able to recruit good talent immediately to help fix that, but the actual roster at his disposal was not what it had been in previous years. It wasn't his creation.

Rick Ray did not take a good basketball program and run it into the ground. He took a bad team and is trying to work his way up.

[C222]

It's tough for me to tell if some of these fans have an agenda or legitimately can't see the real causes of where we are.

People seem to equate everything about our situation with Rick Ray because he is now the coach. But when Ray stepped in, our program was already at the bottom. Yes, we barely made the NIT in Stans' last year, but even that team was totally gone by the time Ray showed up.

Sidney, gone. Moultrie, gone. Bost, gone, Hood, on his way out the door (I have no idea why people think any hire short of a crazy home run would have kept him). Deville Smith, gone. Brian Bryant, gone. He walked in the door with a roster of Roquez Johnson, Shaun Smith, Kristers Zeidaks, Jalen Steele, Wendell Lewis, and Tyson Cunningham. That was the entire roster. He also had a decent recruiting class lined up that he was able to mostly hang onto and had to add a few late signees. That was the reality of his situation. Partly due to the atmosphere that had been created, he eventually kicked Smith, Zeidaks, Steele, and Lewis off the team.

My point is that he didn't walk in the door with a team that made the NIT and then win 10 games with them. When he walked in the door, Mississippi State was essentially a bad mid-major team. You can say he should have been able to recruit good talent immediately to help fix that, but the actual roster at his disposal was not what it had been in previous years. It wasn't his creation.

Rick Ray did not take a good basketball program and run it into the ground. He took a bad team and is trying to work his way up.

Dude, haven't you heard? Any other coach would've kept Hood, gotten Pollard, and kept Gray (even though he is about to be on his 3rd team and about 5th commitment to a school). If we hired any one except Rick Ray, those guys would be on our team!!

[TopDog58]

You have to commend Bury on the wool he's still able to grow. We've got fans like Dawggeezer and Maddawg that are still in love with him.

[Coach34]

It's agenda-driven, plain and simple- just like it was with Cohen for his 1st two years. Cohen weathered the storm, got better, and started winning. Ray needs to do the same next year and alot of it will go away

[dickiedawg]

My question to all of the loyal Rick Ray supporters: are you guys going to every home game? Are you season ticket holders and making sure butts are in seats for games you can't make? If not it's hurting Ray and our program more than helping him. I really feel bad for our team playing I front of 750-2500 fans in all of our early home games. I'm not sure if it changes much for SEC play even with us having a winning record we don't get UK, Florida or Missouri at home this year so the only big home sec crowd we will have will be OM and last year we probably didn't have more than 5k at that game.

Uh, we play UF at home January 30 and UK at home February 8.

ETA: That UF game is on ESPN or ESPN2. Yikes.

[ED_Walk_On]

Uh, count me in that group.

i'm all up in that group

[MarketingBully01]

Coach, what I don't understand is why Frank Martin took that job. USC IMO is a crap school in basketball for a myriad of reasons. 1) you will never get recruits from South Carolina because they want to play in the ACC much like kids want to play in the SEC in football, 2) you will not get a lot of support for that sport because the fans don't care about basketball nor does the administration, 3) location. Basically, USC is an ACC school playing in the SEC. I never really understood adding them to the SEC period. Martin will not be successful there because just like Auburn and Georgia in basketball it's where promising old and young coaches go to die. I have no doubt however that Martin could have come here and be just as successful as he was at Kansas State. Our program is far superior then USC. Just plain and simple fact.

[MadDawg]

You have to commend Bury on the wool he's still able to grow. We've got fans like Dawggeezer and Maddawg that are still in love with him.



Wow. Looks like I have a stalker now. Cool.

[TopDog58]

Wow. Looks like I have a stalker now. Cool.

Don't flatter yourself. I'm not the one that forces you to interject your love for Bury into every Rick Ray thread.