This is 99.9% of MSU's problem

[CadaverDawg]

https://x.com/cfb_data/status/1979940679720513920?s=46&t=JGcocqFS-ilLZm30lpfyng

https://i.imgflip.com/a9l0qv.jpg

You just simply cannot have a QB that is of no threat with his legs these days.

[BeardoMSU]

Zoinks....I knew it was bad, but holy shit...

Indefensible.

[TrapGame]

We'd be 6-1with Arnold.

Freeze totally ****ed us.

[EdwardDrayton]

<sigh>'

[msstate7]

Sucks we didn't know he was so immobile until this season

[EdwardDrayton]

Sucks we didn't know he was so immobile until this season

<slow clap>'

[CadaverDawg]

Sucks we didn't know he was so immobile until this season

Signed a top dual threat recruit, and had the inside track on the top transfer, but our boosters got outbid by Auburn. Sucks.

Anxious to see this offense with a guy with legs at QB

[justwin]

https://x.com/cfb_data/status/1979940679720513920?s=46&t=JGcocqFS-ilLZm30lpfyng

https://i.imgflip.com/a9l0qv.jpg

You just simply cannot have a QB that is of no threat with his legs these days.


it's kamario's time to start and play. He will win 3 of next 5 if give him full playbook. he's DAK 2.0 but much more advanced at this stage. all of those Qbs that lebby desperately tried to sign in dec didn't come as they knew kamario was here. kamario is why MVB left. Play Kamario and save your job & thrive, lebby, as it didnt' have to be like this as your offense is legit but lebby is driving himself to unemployment by starting shapen.

[EdwardDrayton]

it's kamario's time to start and play. He will win 3 of next 5 if give him full playbook. he's DAK 2.0 but much more advanced at this stage. all of those Qbs that lebby desperately tried to sign in dec didn't come as they knew kamario was here. kamario is why MVB left. Play Kamario and save your job & thrive, lebby, as it didnt' have to be like this as your offense is legit but lebby is driving himself to unemployment by starting shapen.

It's an interesting dynamic. Lebby knows he needs one win to assure a third year. And yet he still believes Shapen is the one to do that. I hope it works out for him. I'm not giving it good odds at this juncture.

[Leroy Jenkins]

Put all those other QBs behind this O-line and check the stats again.

[StarkVegasSteve]

it's kamario's time to start and play. He will win 3 of next 5 if give him full playbook. he's DAK 2.0 but much more advanced at this stage. all of those Qbs that lebby desperately tried to sign in dec didn't come as they knew kamario was here. kamario is why MVB left. Play Kamario and save your job & thrive, lebby, as it didnt' have to be like this as your offense is legit but lebby is driving himself to unemployment by starting shapen.

1. Kamario will not win 3 of the next 5 if he starts. He will lose all 5, and lose them very bad.

2. He is not Dak 2.0 and he is not more advanced, which is saying something. Kamario cannot run the offense to its fullest.

3. We only pursued 2 QBs, Arnold and Kromenhoek. Jackson went to Auburn because they overpaid by a million dollars. Not one QB gave a flying 17 that Kamario was committed.

4. Van Buren transferred because we brought back Shapen. He also did not give one iota of a flying 17 about Kamario.

5. If we play Kamario we will not thrive. We will suck and all of you will say he is a bust. I have a mountain of backup QBs to prove my point.

I know the facts have once again gotten in the way of a good narrative but sometimes you just have to understand and accept that there is a reason Kamario is not playing. He is not ready. He is ready for what we are asking him to do, which is why he plays in those situations. He may be ready next year and he may not. I do know we will be pursuing a QB in the portal and it will be someone who can start. Because you do not just roll with Taylor and do not look back. Think what would have happened if OM would have just said, “hell, we got Simmons and he was good for one drive. We do not need to give 500K to the Ferris St QB”. You always should attempt to make your team better. I mean if Kamario is as good as you all say he is then he should have no problem at all winning a QB competition. Unless…..

[Rawdawg]

I think that factors in sacks too which is a reflection of the offensive line. But if Shapen could move some he wouldnt get sacked as much.

[msstate7]

I think that factors in sacks too which is a reflection of the offensive line. But if Shapen could move some he wouldnt get sacked as much.

Shapen is 15th in the sec in QbR. He's not good

[StarkVegasSteve]

I think that factors in sacks too which is a reflection of the offensive line. But if Shapen could move some he wouldnt get sacked as much.

Our line was MUCH better last night in pass pro. 2 of the sacks were on Shapen, which is a fatal flaw of his. He holds the ball too long looking for the deep shot, which makes the last play piss me off even more because the QB who always holds the ball made a quick decision.

[Hail State]

Not even gonna lie, I have no idea what that graph means.

[Activated Alpha]

https://trailers.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/b2564a91-8b9a-48b9-99d7-60490befc554/gif#JpU2-sxZ.copy

I don't understand how to post a gif apparently

[CadaverDawg]

Not even gonna lie, I have no idea what that graph means.

Up and Down is passing

Left and Right is rushing

The best dual threats would be in the upper right, and the worst would be lower left.

Shapen is....well....about as far away from the upper right as you can get

[TaleofTwoDogs]

1. Kamario will not win 3 of the next 5 if he starts. He will lose all 5, and lose them very bad.

2. He is not Dak 2.0 and he is not more advanced, which is saying something. Kamario cannot run the offense to its fullest.

3. We only pursued 2 QBs, Arnold and Kromenhoek. Jackson went to Auburn because they overpaid by a million dollars. Not one QB gave a flying 17 that Kamario was committed.

4. Van Buren transferred because we brought back Shapen. He also did not give one iota of a flying 17 about Kamario.

5. If we play Kamario we will not thrive. We will suck and all of you will say he is a bust. I have a mountain of backup QBs to prove my point.

I know the facts have once again gotten in the way of a good narrative but sometimes you just have to understand and accept that there is a reason Kamario is not playing. He is not ready. He is ready for what we are asking him to do, which is why he plays in those situations. He may be ready next year and he may not. I do know we will be pursuing a QB in the portal and it will be someone who can start. Because you do not just roll with Taylor and do not look back. Think what would have happened if OM would have just said, ?hell, we got Simmons and he was good for one drive. We do not need to give 500K to the Ferris St QB?. You always should attempt to make your team better. I mean if Kamario is as good as you all say he is then he should have no problem at all winning a QB competition. Unless?..

Coach Lebby is that you???? *

[Todd4State]

1. Kamario will not win 3 of the next 5 if he starts. He will lose all 5, and lose them very bad.

2. He is not Dak 2.0 and he is not more advanced, which is saying something. Kamario cannot run the offense to its fullest.

3. We only pursued 2 QBs, Arnold and Kromenhoek. Jackson went to Auburn because they overpaid by a million dollars. Not one QB gave a flying 17 that Kamario was committed.

4. Van Buren transferred because we brought back Shapen. He also did not give one iota of a flying 17 about Kamario.

5. If we play Kamario we will not thrive. We will suck and all of you will say he is a bust. I have a mountain of backup QBs to prove my point.

I know the facts have once again gotten in the way of a good narrative but sometimes you just have to understand and accept that there is a reason Kamario is not playing. He is not ready. He is ready for what we are asking him to do, which is why he plays in those situations. He may be ready next year and he may not. I do know we will be pursuing a QB in the portal and it will be someone who can start. Because you do not just roll with Taylor and do not look back. Think what would have happened if OM would have just said, “hell, we got Simmons and he was good for one drive. We do not need to give 500K to the Ferris St QB”. You always should attempt to make your team better. I mean if Kamario is as good as you all say he is then he should have no problem at all winning a QB competition. Unless…..

All of this. And it's very obvious.


And on Shapen- to those talking about how "immobile" he is- most people did not want him to rush because of his injury history. And now we're complaining about him not running it enough.

[Todd4State]

We have fans that do not care if our QB can pass as long as he can run the ball. That is insane.

[confucius say]

We have fans that do not care if our QB can pass as long as he can run the ball. That is insane.

Correct. Arnold is atrocious. Every Auburn fan would trade him for Shapen right now. Auburn had a top 3 defense in the sec, but Arnold is so bad that freeze is about to be fired. Yet our fans want him.

[msstate7]

Qbr overall in sec...

https://i.postimg.cc/9FzjLrTr/IMG-0441.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fJ4FLW8N)

[msstate7]

Qbr by pass...

https://i.postimg.cc/QdpYm3fw/IMG-0442.jpg (https://postimg.cc/rDw9yvXN)

[msstate7]

Qbr by run...

https://i.postimg.cc/rFGYCTZ2/IMG-0443.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9rMpC6jL)

[EdwardDrayton]

All of this. And it's very obvious.


And on Shapen- to those talking about how "immobile" he is- most people did not want him to rush because of his injury history. And now we're complaining about him not running it enough.

Mobility out of the pocket behind the line of scrimmage is different than rushing. It's difficult to judge his mobility because his reaction to pressure is to duck and run straight ahead. Under pressure his eyes drop. As Dak says it's not pressure if you have a plan. Shapen just is not good under pressure. This is something effective coaching can help.

[msstate7]

Qbr overall in sec...

https://i.postimg.cc/9FzjLrTr/IMG-0441.jpg (https://postimg.cc/fJ4FLW8N)

Looking at this, we've faced one top half qb in the sec so far. After this weekend, our D is about to see a huge increase in qb play

[StarkVegasSteve]

We have fans that do not care if our QB can pass as long as he can run the ball. That is insane.

Because we have fans who never played past HS and every one of their teams ran either the Power I, Wishbone, I-formation, etc. That is how they know football. It also goes back to we would rather be "blue collar and hard working" than "flashy". It's why OM has always embraced the pass happy spread offenses and our fans look for the first sign of failure and want to go back to the 1970s with the Wishbone.

[Matt3467]

Shapen isn't slow. He's definitely not Will Rogers. I think it's by design they've chosen not to run him more. I get it as far as his injury history is concerned but at this point you may as well open it up. Curious how we haven't seen the portal QB yet but we've seen Taylor. That can't be a good indicator.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Shapen isn't slow. He's definitely not Will Rogers. I think it's by design they've chosen not to run him more. I get it as far as his injury history is concerned but at this point you may as well open it up. Curious how we haven't seen the portal QB yet but we've seen Taylor. That can't be a good indicator.

My guess, with absolutely ZERO knowledge of the thinking, is that they are being overprotective of Kromenhoek because if Shapen gets injured that's who the starter would be. You can run Kamario out there because he's not your backup. We are treating him like Sean Payton treated Taysom Hill in regards to QB runs. Kind of the, "We can be less cautious because he's not the backup."

I also could be completely wrong and Kamario is the backup and Kromenhoek sucks. I do know Kromenhoek is faster than Kamario though.

[TrapGame]

All of this. And it's very obvious.


And on Shapen- to those talking about how "immobile" he is- most people did not want him to rush because of his injury history. And now we're complaining about him not running it enough.

Yep. Shapen is not even trying to get extra yards when he runs for green grass. If he gets close to the 1st down marker, great, but he?s not trying to run over guys. He can?t make the QB runs that Gabriel or Arnold were making in Lebby?s offense because he would get hurt again. Lebby is missing an important weapon in his offense because of this.

[Goldendawg]

We read all off season and in the Spring that he was being taught and told to get down on his runs to avoid contact. Even our opponents know it and we are playing 10 1/2 against 11 when we are on offense. You can't have it both ways with him and he is now "Mr. Slide".

Also, I posted earlier in the season that there was no way that he is 6'2". He cannot see over the line, thus no crossing pattern or slants and the horrible interception against FL. We have two fast WR's who get open on the deep ball. I doubt Shapen can even see them downfield most throws and just blindly lets it go to the spot, if he doesn't overthrow. If this continues in a Texas loss this wwek give Hawk or Taylor a chance to start. With another loss, six wins with short, 24 year old "Mr. Slide" will be impossible.

[tcdog70]

1. Kamario will not win 3 of the next 5 if he starts. He will lose all 5, and lose them very bad.

2. He is not Dak 2.0 and he is not more advanced, which is saying something. Kamario cannot run the offense to its fullest.

3. We only pursued 2 QBs, Arnold and Kromenhoek. Jackson went to Auburn because they overpaid by a million dollars. Not one QB gave a flying 17 that Kamario was committed.

4. Van Buren transferred because we brought back Shapen. He also did not give one iota of a flying 17 about Kamario.

5. If we play Kamario we will not thrive. We will suck and all of you will say he is a bust. I have a mountain of backup QBs to prove my point.

I know the facts have once again gotten in the way of a good narrative but sometimes you just have to understand and accept that there is a reason Kamario is not playing. He is not ready. He is ready for what we are asking him to do, which is why he plays in those situations. He may be ready next year and he may not. I do know we will be pursuing a QB in the portal and it will be someone who can start. Because you do not just roll with Taylor and do not look back. Think what would have happened if OM would have just said, ?hell, we got Simmons and he was good for one drive. We do not need to give 500K to the Ferris St QB?. You always should attempt to make your team better. I mean if Kamario is as good as you all say he is then he should have no problem at all winning a QB competition. Unless?..

why do you hate KT? have you ever watched Him play? he scored only Td in The spring game. Hell He scored our first Td Saturday. Let give Him a try, playing Shapen isn't the answer.

[StarkVegasSteve]

why do you hate KT? have you ever watched Him play? he scored only Td in The spring game. Hell He scored our first Td Saturday. Let give Him a try, playing Shapen isn't the answer.

I do not hate Kamario, please for the love of god stop calling him KT he is not Keytaon Thompson. I have watched him play plenty. I have also watched the all 22 for every game, including this last one. He does not know how to make the reads quick enough. It is not his fault. He ran a simplistic offense in HS that let him do whatever he wanted to do. There were no reads to make. I think Kamario is going to be a hell of a player for us, maybe the best QB ever, but I have watched enough to know he is not ready.

Talk to any coach from HS to FBS and they will tell you the same thing in regards to Kamario. He is not ready because Noxubee did not prepare him to be ready. Yogi Roth, of Elite 11, has literally said that exact thing. Said he may be one of the physically gifted QBs they have ever had, but he did not know how to read a coverage. Or how to attack cover 2 vs how you attack cover 3.

[Goldendawg]

I do not hate Kamario, please for the love of god stop calling him KT he is not Keytaon Thompson. I have watched him play plenty. I have also watched the all 22 for every game, including this last one. He does not know how to make the reads quick enough. It is not his fault. He ran a simplistic offense in HS that let him do whatever he wanted to do. There were no reads to make. I think Kamario is going to be a hell of a player for us, maybe the best QB ever, but I have watched enough to know he is not ready.

Talk to any coach from HS to FBS and they will tell you the same thing in regards to Kamario. He is not ready because Noxubee did not prepare him to be ready. Yogi Roth, of Elite 11, has literally said that exact thing. Said he may be one of the physically gifted QBs they have ever had, but he did not know how to read a coverage. Or how to attack cover 2 vs how you attack cover 3.

Well Shapen made a similar read on that 4th down failure and admitted he didn't even see the 6'6" or so nose guard that dropped into coverage that didn't give us a chance to kick a possible winner. Lose to Texas and we are on a 16 game SEC losing streak and it is time to try something new. It's not like Shapen will be here next season.

[Todd4State]

Well Shapen made a similar read on that 4th down failure and admitted he didn't even see the 6'6" or so nose guard that dropped into coverage that didn't give us a chance to kick a possible winner. Lose to Texas and we are on a 16 game SEC losing streak and it is time to try something new. It's not like Shapen will be here next season.

Sure that was a bad read. It's not about being perfect. It's about who can make the right read the majority of the time and that's Shapen.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Well Shapen made a similar read on that 4th down failure and admitted he didn't even see the 6'6" or so nose guard that dropped into coverage that didn't give us a chance to kick a possible winner. Lose to Texas and we are on a 16 game SEC losing streak and it is time to try something new. It's not like Shapen will be here next season.

And trying something new is not always better. Again, I know we all want the kid to be the second coming of Cam Newton, and maybe he will be, but even Cam wasn't Cam as a Freshman. And guess what he struggled with? Learning the playbook. And no that is not opinion that is a fact told to a group of us by Mullen. I've talked to Mullen plenty about it since, actually talked about Cam last year when he was here for the reunion because I was asking him what were the chances that a True Freshman could succeed in this league. He said, "No 17 chance. The playbook is too big at this level and you will spazz them out to the point of you're scared they'll s*** themselves on 3rd and 8th." He actually talked to Lebby as well that weekend about how to operate with a True Freshman QB and the challenges that come with it.

[Homedawg]

We'd be 6-1with Arnold.

Freeze totally ****ed us.

No we wouldn't. He can't throw. At all.

[StarkVegasSteve]

No we wouldn't. He can't throw. At all.

We very well might be. He can throw it enough and knows this offense. We may not be 6-1 but I feel confident in saying that Jackson Arnold wins that game on Saturday. He can make the same throws as Shapen and we would've called QB run at the end.

[Homedawg]

Correct. Arnold is atrocious. Every Auburn fan would trade him for Shapen right now. Auburn had a top 3 defense in the sec, but Arnold is so bad that freeze is about to be fired. Yet our fans want him.

Correct. And anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't watched Auburn play 5 snaps.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Correct. And anyone that thinks otherwise hasn't watched Auburn play 5 snaps.

He just can't run Hugh's offense. Which, anyone with half of brain, knew when he signed with them.

[TrapGame]

No we wouldn't. He can't throw. At all.

He throws just as good as Shapen. He made some good passes against Missouri. It is more the mobility with Arnold. We are missing that greatly.

[confucius say]

We very well might be. He can throw it enough and knows this offense. We may not be 6-1 but I feel confident in saying that Jackson Arnold wins that game on Saturday. He can make the same throws as Shapen and we would've called QB run at the end.

He cannot make the same throws as Shapen. At all. At least Shapen hits on some of the deep balls. Watch arnold play. And he has first round freak WR out there.

[Todd4State]

One thing that concerned me in the offseason about Shapen and trying to make him run less is that when you do that to a QB a lot of times it makes them think too much and makes them so things they normally wouldn't do. I think that's some of what is happening with Shapen.

[Coursesuper]

No we wouldn't. He can't throw. At all.

That dude is as consistent as my putter.

[msstate7]

You know Arnold being terrible is a major mark on lebby. That's who he wanted.

[I seen it dawg]

We are on the right path. And better than last year markedly. And light years away from 2 years ago. We?ve got the right guy.

[StarkVegasSteve]

We are on the right path. And better than last year markedly. And light years away from 2 years ago. We?ve got the right guy.

I agree with this. It's actually astounding how much better we are.

[Todd4State]

You know Arnold being terrible is a major mark on lebby. That's who he wanted.

He also brought in Dart and Gabriel.

[TrapGame]

I agree with this. It's actually astounding how much better we are.

But it is even more astounding people want to run him out of town a year and a half in.

[msstate7]

He also brought in Dart and Gabriel.

Both are great, and I'll give you Gabriel bc of prior relationship. Kiffin got dart though. He had a chance to get Gabriel here also... I won't hold that against him.

[StarkVegasSteve]

But it is even more astounding people want to run him out of town a year and a half in.

Most of that was just emotional. Hell I was one of those people. That was a very emotionally taxing game and we were right there to win it.

[CadaverDawg]

What's crazy is how many people in this thread think that if you want a mobile/dual threat QB it means you "don't care if he can pass".....what in the world?

And how many people think Shapen "doesn't run". He runs at the worst times and isn't good at it. But he definitely runs. And he seems to no longer be able to throw anything but the deep ball or WR screen. Nothing else.

I'm dying to see a TRUE dual threat in this offense like I was Leach's but we never got to see it in his. Hopefully we can see it next year in Lebby's...whether that be Taylor or a transfer that can pass AND run.
Shapen wouldn't be so bad if he had any ability to sense pressure and slide or create with his legs to allow guys to get open. He has no pocket awareness and his decision making is inconsistent at best.

[StarkVegasSteve]

What's crazy is how many people in this thread think that if you want a mobile/dual threat QB it means you "don't care if he can pass".....what in the world?

And how many people think Shapen "doesn't run". He runs at the worst times and isn't good at it. But he definitely runs. And he seems to no longer be able to throw anything but the deep ball or WR screen. Nothing else.

I'm dying to see a TRUE dual threat in this offense like I was Leach's but we never got to see it in his. Hopefully we can see it next year in Lebby's...whether that be Taylor or a transfer that can pass AND run.
Shapen wouldn't be so bad if he had any ability to sense pressure and slide or create with his legs to allow guys to get open. He has no pocket awareness and his decision making is inconsistent at best.

The problem is that I think he has pocket awareness but he just waits too late looking for the HR ball. Which is the irony of all ironies because the one time he is not too patient, he throws it directly to the DE who has dropped into coverage.

[Todd4State]

Both are great, and I'll give you Gabriel bc of prior relationship. Kiffin got dart though. He had a chance to get Gabriel here also... I won't hold that against him.

Lebby and our QB coach both recruited Dart too.

[Todd4State]

What's crazy is how many people in this thread think that if you want a mobile/dual threat QB it means you "don't care if he can pass".....what in the world?

And how many people think Shapen "doesn't run". He runs at the worst times and isn't good at it. But he definitely runs. And he seems to no longer be able to throw anything but the deep ball or WR screen. Nothing else.

I'm dying to see a TRUE dual threat in this offense like I was Leach's but we never got to see it in his. Hopefully we can see it next year in Lebby's...whether that be Taylor or a transfer that can pass AND run.
Shapen wouldn't be so bad if he had any ability to sense pressure and slide or create with his legs to allow guys to get open. He has no pocket awareness and his decision making is inconsistent at best.

I'll address the first comment since I've certainly made it before.

I've seen plenty of MSU fans harp on mobility for years! It's always "well if the QB could run we wouldn't have as many sacks and the other team would have to focus on the QB as a runner....nothing about passing ability! So what else am I supposed to assume here based on those comments? We have fans that act like Chris Relf is only one step below Dak. He had one season where he won 9 games- the same as Will Rogers who was not mobile.

And then to beg for KT to come in and replace Shapen because of some quarterback keepers that haven't even worked that well? Again- what else am I supposed to assume?

But Shapen isn't that immobile. He can move in the pocket. He got HURT last year against Florida doing what?- running the ball trying to get a touchdown. And no he isn't Mike Vick but he certainly isn't Will Rogers either.

And for our program to get to where we want to go- we're going to have to pass the ball effectively. That's saying that we have to throw as much as Leach did, doesn't mean that the QB running or been mobile doesn't help, or anything like that.

So that's why.

[archdog]

Shapen is protecting himself. Which is fine.

The issue is, we don?t attack the middle of the field. Our TE is a weapon sometimes. Then he disappears for 3 games. Our running game is fine, but sometimes we forget to counter off tackle. We give Shapen almost zero easy throws. I complained once and the very next play we actually threw one to Fluff on the very next play.

If we hit half of the deep balls at the UF game, we are all talking about how explosive our offense is again. And it is. The offense stalls. They need big swinging D energy. And they will gain it Saturday. TX 17 - MSU 34.

[Homedawg]

He throws just as good as Shapen. He made some good passes against Missouri. It is more the mobility with Arnold. We are missing that greatly.

No. No he can't.

[Homedawg]

You know Arnold being terrible is a major mark on lebby. That's who he wanted.

Ok I'm gonna say this me more time. Some will call bs but here goes. We were pursing Arnold. But not near as hard as some here make it out to be. Shapen was our guy. Arnold was our insurance. I'll hang up and let the people go nuts.

[msstate7]

Ok I'm gonna say this me more time. Some will call bs but here goes. We were pursing Arnold. But not near as hard as some here make it out to be. Shapen was our guy. Arnold was our insurance. I'll hang up and let the people go nuts.

I'll be the first to admit I don't believe half the crap I read here; but if the NIL money we've heard Shapen makes and what we offered Arnold are correct, I find it hard to believe we offered Arnold twice as much money as Shapen to back him up.