Our problem is really that we hired Leach

[cheewgumm]

I?m sorry. No offense to him but that was a huge error.

[DownwardDawg]

I loved Leach. Hated his offense at times, but some games like tonight I wish we would go full air raid dink and dunk.
To your point, Texas Tech is just now recovering. And only because of NIL.

[Todd4State]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

[DownwardDawg]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

That set us back years!!

[Dawgface]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

Keenum. We have him to thank.

[Santiago]

Not to get into a whole air raid argument , but last night I was thinking how Leach's wide offensive line splits slow down a more talented D line, and that we have a QB that would want to take more vertical shots downfield in the system.
It is a talent equalizer.

[R2Dawg]

I loved Leach. Hated his offense at times, but some games like tonight I wish we would go full air raid dink and dunk.
To your point, Texas Tech is just now recovering. And only because of NIL.

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

[Coursesuper]

I?m sorry. No offense to him but that was a huge error.

This is correct. The lack of recruiting combined with NIL kicking in full bore left us with a very very tall hill to climb. Our league is brutal.

[maroonmania]

I?m sorry. No offense to him but that was a huge error.

Pretty much everything Cohen did as our AD was a huge error. Jans may actually be the only exception.

[Santiago]

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

We won SEC games with the Air Raid, or more about the Air Raid coach being the big reason. And we were not really running full Air Raid with Rogers's lack of arm strength.
That coaching staff and Chief of staff for Leach were not that good on recruiting and that policy of don't offer until they have a D1 offer (or whatever they did), and lost some MS recruits.
Air Raid can control TOP, and we usually did that. But the staff recruiting was really bad for sure.

We do need an equalizer for our offense against these SEC stacked up NIL teams.

[Santiago]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

this.

[basedog]

Arnett was way over his head! Hired maybe the worse staff ever at Msu. Lied to players and couldn't recruit even as an assistant.

You guys blaming Lebby for being bad have lost your mind. He inherited a terrible situation, not only that we are still in a building process. We are better but with injuries and lack of talent on offense along with not much talent depth is showing. Btw, yes Lebby makes mistakes, but this team is still playing hard.

[PGHBulldogBG]

Lebby has proven to me that he is a pretty good coach. The question is going to be whether or not he can recruit. I?m not even sure you can blame recruiting issues on him though because of NIL and even though ours is not terrible, it is no where near the top half of the SEC. Because he is a good coach and getting the most out of his players, it makes our talent deficiency more clear. Hopefully if our fans see that we can at least compete that they will go all in like Ole Miss, although I am skeptical

[Cowbell]

Not to get into a whole air raid argument , but last night I was thinking how Leach's wide offensive line splits slow down a more talented D line, and that we have a QB that would want to take more vertical shots downfield in the system.
It is a talent equalizer.

You have a short memory. Remember us not being able to block 3 with 5? Remember us never taking shots and all we did was get running backs blown up (like last night).

[Santiago]

You have a short memory. Remember us not being able to block 3 with 5? Remember us never taking shots and all we did was get running backs blown up (like last night).

I remember during Leach's seasons, seeing guys open downfield and the QB not pulling the trigger or having the arm strength to hit tight windows.
But I also do remember winning games, having winning seasons while half our fanbase complained at how we were winning was not exciting enough.

[EdwardDrayton]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

^^^^^

[MBDawg601]

We will be blaming the Mike Leach hire for the next decade. Never mind the fact that every team has to overhaul their roster due to the transfer portal, regardless of recruiting rankings. Anyone that would have been worth a shit while Leach was here would have been long gone by now.

But yeah, it is because of the Leach hire.

[EdwardDrayton]

My family and I sat in Raymond James Stadium on January 2, 2023, watching Mike Leach's #24 ranked team beat a BIG10 Illinois squad 19-10. 22 days after Mike died.

[Santiago]

My family and I sat in Raymond James Stadium on January 2, 2023, watching Mike Leach's #24 ranked team beat a BIG10 Illinois squad 19-10. 22 days after Mike died.

yeah, but did thy RTDF? ***

[PGHBulldogBG]

There weren?t very many other options when we hired Leach but the mess we are digging out of is Keenums mess because he hired Arnett instead of doing a national search or consulting with others. We could?ve hired Lebby in 2023 or someone at least qualified

[maroonmania]

There weren?t very many other options when we hired Leach but the mess we are digging out of is Keenums mess because he hired Arnett instead of doing a national search or consulting with others. We could?ve hired Lebby in 2023 or someone at least qualified

Biggest issue was how we got left at the starting gate by the rest of the SEC with NIL and a coach bought into NIL. That's how OM got the separation from us we are experiencing today. I put most of that blame on Cohen because he didn't have a clue how to market and fund raise and didn't put any emphasis on NIL itself or a coach's ability to use NIL when hiring a coach. Thankful Selmon has helped us dig out of a massive NIL and fundraising hole.

[EdwardDrayton]

There weren?t very many other options when we hired Leach but the mess we are digging out of is Keenums mess because he hired Arnett instead of doing a national search or consulting with others. We could?ve hired Lebby in 2023 or someone at least qualified

The message that came out was we were trying to keep the class. But whatever the reason for it, that Keenum decision was an unmitigated disaster.

[BeardoMSU]

My family and I sat in Raymond James Stadium on January 2, 2023, watching Mike Leach's #24 ranked team beat a BIG10 Illinois squad 19-10. 22 days after Mike died.

It was 13-10 prior to the last play of the game...

[EdwardDrayton]

It was 13-10 prior to the last play of the game...

Don't pee on my memories Beard. LOL!!!

[smootness]

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

Shoot, his defenses were often better than his offenses here, not sure what you are talking about.

Hiring Leach was a great move, this is nonsense.

[TrapGame]

Hiring Leach was a big gamble that didn't quite pan out. He was the Air Raid guru and not going to someone off his tree, or close to it, was a huge mistake on Keenum's part.

Of course my take has always been, and always will be, it all started with Moorhead. His Zips won their second game of the season yesterday against Central Michigan.

[EdwardDrayton]

Hiring Leach was a big gamble that didn't quite pan out. He was the Air Raid guru and not going to someone off his tree, or close to it, was a huge mistake on Keenum's part.

Of course my take has always been, and always will be, it all started with Moorhead. His Zips won their second game of the season yesterday against Central Michigan.

So you're saying he's on the upswing. *****

[DownwardDawg]

Arnett was way over his head! Hired maybe the worse staff ever at Msu. Lied to players and couldn't recruit even as an assistant.

You guys blaming Lebby for being bad have lost your mind. He inherited a terrible situation, not only that we are still in a building process. We are better but with injuries and lack of talent on offense along with not much talent depth is showing. Btw, yes Lebby makes mistakes, but this team is still playing hard.

Arnette made Croom look like Saban.

[EdwardDrayton]

Arnette made Croom look like Saban.

At least Sly could handle himself appropriately on national TV. *****

[JimBobDawg]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.
Bingo Todd!!

[Bothrops]

Our problem is Leach died. Then we hired a guy who didn't want the job, but couldn't turn it down. If Kiffin had croaked, Ole Miss would very likely be in our current shoes, but with a better outlook.

[Santiago]

Out of our entire coaching staff who had more years coaching than Arnett, why did we pick him over all the others, for at least a one season transition. I was for a national coach search, but we had no AD. .... but still, the fascination with Arnett by the decision makers was just the stupidest thing ever. Hiring a DC with basically a couple years at best experience as DC on their own, to take over an SEC program.

[maroonmania]

Out of our entire coaching staff who had more years coaching than Arnett, why did we pick him over all the others, for at least a one season transition. I was for a national coach search, but we had no AD. .... but still, the fascination with Arnett by the decision makers was just the stupidest thing ever. Hiring a DC with basically a couple years at best experience as DC on their own, to take over an SEC program.

Other option on staff I guess would have been Spurrier Jr. but he didn't seem to get much consideration for whatever reason. The plus had we gone with him was that the offense would likely have been kept mostly intact.

[Todd4State]

Out of our entire coaching staff who had more years coaching than Arnett, why did we pick him over all the others, for at least a one season transition. I was for a national coach search, but we had no AD. .... but still, the fascination with Arnett by the decision makers was just the stupidest thing ever. Hiring a DC with basically a couple years at best experience as DC on their own, to take over an SEC program.

That whole situation was very booster driven. Bottom line is they took advantage of the situation to get what they wanted- got it and ****ed up our football program. There has been a lot of cover run for them ranging from "what else where we supposed to do?" To we had to keep the recruiting class together to blaming Keenum.

[Todd4State]

Other option on staff I guess would have been Spurrier Jr. but he didn't seem to get much consideration for whatever reason. The plus had we gone with him was that the offense would likely have been kept mostly intact.

If it were me I would have offered Steve Spurrier, Sr, Bob Stoops, or someone like that our job and Leach's contract as an interim or even full time. Would have gotten us a quality coach and time to reset.

Heck- would have been better off hiring Rockey Felker than Arnett.

Or better off- accelerate hiring Selmon and let him hire Lebby. Tell him that he can hire whoever he wants and get his guy right off the bat.

[War Machine Dawg]

No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.

Incorrect. Arnett inherited a roster devoid of any talent. That's on Leach. Doesn't mean Arnett was any good, but Nick Saban wouldn't have won more than 4 games with that roster. That is Leach's entire history: Recruit guys for his very specific, and by that time outdated, system that's unfit for anything else.

[EdwardDrayton]

Incorrect. Arnett inherited a roster devoid of any talent. That's on Leach. Doesn't mean Arnett was any good, but Nick Saban wouldn't have won more than 4 games with that roster. That is Leach's entire history: Recruit guys for his very specific, and by that time outdated, system that's unfit for anything else.

No disrespect but to say a roster devoid of talent is either delusional, denial or just willful ignorance.

[Todd4State]

Incorrect. Arnett inherited a roster devoid of any talent. That's on Leach. Doesn't mean Arnett was any good, but Nick Saban wouldn't have won more than 4 games with that roster. That is Leach's entire history: Recruit guys for his very specific, and by that time outdated, system that's unfit for anything else.

Yeah. Teams that return most of their players back after they won 9 games and return most of their players are "devoid of talent".

Getting players in space to make plays is never gong to be antiquated.

[Todd4State]

No disrespect but to say a roster devoid of talent is either delusional, denial or just willful ignorance.

They're still mad that Leach proved their theory that all Mississippi State can do to win games is run the ball completely false.

It's not a coincidence that the coache MSU hired ran an offense that is on the Air Raid tree.

[bulldawg28]

Leach catching strays for something he had no control over.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

I disagree here. There were no TOP issues in a Leach offense. Many people think so because it?s a lot of passing, but the stats say differently. Leach passed a lot, but we did not run tempo or hurry-up. Leach would take most of the play clock to get off the next play. Also, so many of his passes were to running backs for just a few yards. We weren?t going on these 80 yard touchdown drives in just 5 plays while running the hurry-up. Instead, we would have a 80 yard drive with 13 plays (11 passes and 2 runs) that ate up clock.

[Turfdawg67]

Shoot, his defenses were often better than his offenses here, not sure what you are talking about.

Hiring Leach was a great move, this is nonsense.


No. The problem is he passed away and we hired Arnett.


Biggest issue was how we got left at the starting gate by the rest of the SEC with NIL and a coach bought into NIL. That's how OM got the separation from us we are experiencing today. I put most of that blame on Cohen because he didn't have a clue how to market and fund raise and didn't put any emphasis on NIL itself or a coach's ability to use NIL when hiring a coach. Thankful Selmon has helped us dig out of a massive NIL and fundraising hole.

These are all correct. We won 9 games just three years ago. Let ML rest in peace.

[StarkVegasSteve]

It was a bunch of things all at once.

1. Hiring Leach was always going to take us down the Air Raid path to where it would take a couple of seasons to get the roster back to SEC standards. It's a credit to Mike we were winning with G5 guys, because we were. Rogers was a G5 QB that Leach made into a solid SEC starter.

2. Failure to embrace NIL. This starts at the top with Cohen wanting NIL to only go towards baseball because of 11.7 and that was his sport. He poisoned the well with Leach too and made Leach think he didn't need it so we didn't sell it to portal guys. By the time Cohen left and Leach realized Cohen had been lying to him, we were 16-24 months behind everyone else.

3. Hiring Arnett. This was just a killer. I understand at the time that it seemed like the only option but we should've just kept the interim tag on him and then reevaluated once the bowl game was over.

[BrunswickDawg]

One problem with air raid is TOP. You think our D was tired last night. Our D got better once air raid was out of our system.

We needed to run the ball, run clock and give our D a breather. It worked until we kept forcing the long pass.

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

[Santiago]

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

Glad you posted it. i wanted to but thought surely the other poster looks this up before just throwing it out there the air raid kept the defense on the field.

[Pancho]

leach being here is currently the least of our issues. help lebby get more good players. hell, we are 5 or 6 guys away from what would be a 8 win season

[tcdog70]

You sure? might have been hiring Charlie Shira

[somebodyshotmypaw]

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

Yep. The MSU version of the air raid ate the clock. The passes were high percentage throws. And they were short (often to a RB). And we didn't use tempo or hurry-up. If you go 80 yards with 13 straight running plays off tackle, people think you ate the clock. But if you use 13 completed passing plays to the running backs to go 80 yards then people think your time of possession was short because they were passes. But the drive took the same amount of time of possession.

[DownwardDawg]

Incorrect. Arnett inherited a roster devoid of any talent. That's on Leach. Doesn't mean Arnett was any good, but Nick Saban wouldn't have won more than 4 games with that roster. That is Leach's entire history: Recruit guys for his very specific, and by that time outdated, system that's unfit for anything else.

Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

[DownwardDawg]

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

People struggle to understand this. Leach ate the clock up!!

[Pancho]

this^

[StarkVegasSteve]

Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

[JimBobDawg]

Should have known we were in trouble, when he let loose with the F bomb while being interviewed by a female reporter on the field in post game interview.

[cheewgumm]

But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

Exactly

and i didn't mean this as a knock on Leach. Just the aftermath of Leach is difficult.

[DownwardDawg]

But that's the problem. Because while you might be correct and Leach could've won 9 games with that roster, ONLY MIKE LEACH could've won 9 games with that roster. Anyone else calling the plays and our ceiling is 5-6. It's a credit to Mike that he was able to take guys that are fringe P4 guys and make them contributors for SEC teams.

I agree 100%. But no one expected him to die. We would not have been in near as bad shape if he would have stayed until he retired. We would at least have top QB's and receivers and hopefully a much better plan as to whom would replace him.
We just fell into a worse case scenario.

[MBDawg601]

I agree 100%. But no one expected him to die. We would not have been in near as bad shape if he would have stayed until he retired. We would at least have top QB's and receivers and hopefully a much better plan as to whom would replace him.
We just fell into a worse case scenario.

Sawyer Robinson running Mike Leach?s offense giving me a semi chub rn

[R2Dawg]

The dumbest thing about this statement is how easily it's disproven:

In '22 we were 7th in the SEC in TOP
In '21 we were 1st
In '20 we were 4th

In '23 we were 9th
In '24 we were DFL
In '25 so far we are DFL

But that air raid.....

The numbers are way skewed. Most of our points, yards and TOP happened in garbage time. Just watch the games. Remember Ark, UK, etc. Yeah we had a few good games Aub and OM two that come to mind in 3 years but that ain't much.

But these threads need to stop. Let CML RIP and wish everyone would quit bringing up. We are two HC removed. People act like we won the SEC with air raid. Let it go.

Lets start where we are. The air raid split the fanbase in a horrible way.

[R2Dawg]

Exactly

and i didn't mean this as a knock on Leach. Just the aftermath of Leach is difficult.

Yep and most knew we were going to be hit twice with the change - on the way in and on the way out. Just really sucks and the wrong time to do that kind of thing and we paying for it now.

[R2Dawg]

Leach would have won 9'games with that roster.

Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

[Santiago]

The numbers are way skewed. Most of our points, yards and TOP happened in garbage time. Just watch the games. Remember Ark, UK, etc. Yeah we had a few good games Aub and OM two that come to mind in 3 years but that ain't much.

But these threads need to stop. Let CML RIP and wish everyone would quit bringing up. We are two HC removed. People act like we won the SEC with air raid. Let it go.

Lets start where we are. The air raid split the fanbase in a horrible way.


I learned alot about our some of our fanbase, and some of the football influences at that time, and how it was handled afterward. Winning with a future college football hall of fame coach, was not enough, unless it was their way.

[Catfish]

I learned alot about our some of our fanbase, and some of the football influences at that time, and how it was handled afterward. Winning with a future college football hall of fame coach, was not enough, unless it was their way.

Well said.

[1eyedog]

Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

should have.....but he would have frozen against Bama IMO......

[DownwardDawg]

Easy to say that when it didn't happen.

And Mullen would have won a NC in 18 too.

It's real easy. He won 9 the prior year. Would have had a better team that next year and then Sawyer Robinson would have been hell running Leach's offense. It would be us everyone would be talking about making playoffs instead of ole miss.

Mullen would have went 11-1 in 2018 and made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind. He would have lost to Bama, but no telling what would have happened in the playoffs.


But here we are today..........

[BeardoMSU]

Leading up to the EB, maybe even weeks before, there were rumors swirling that Mike was retiring at seasons end.

Obv that didn't happen, tragically, but I do wonder how things would've gone had it shaked out that way....

Who would we've hired? How different would things be? Or would it be pretty similar?

[R2Dawg]

It's real easy. He won 9 the prior year. Would have had a better team that next year and then Sawyer Robinson would have been hell running Leach's offense. It would be us everyone would be talking about making playoffs instead of ole miss.

Mullen would have went 11-1 in 2018 and made the playoffs. No doubt in my mind. He would have lost to Bama, but no telling what would have happened in the playoffs.


But here we are today..........

Well the problem with real easy is the logic. First Leach won 8 games. So take that logic, everytime MSU won 8 games the year prior, means the next year we compete for a championship? And that has happened maybe never in MSU history? What facts says we would have had a better team? 2001 we returned the entire offense and was picked to win the SECW but finished last.

[Todd4State]

Leading up to the EB, maybe even weeks before, there were rumors swirling that Mike was retiring at seasons end.

Obv that didn't happen, tragically, but I do wonder how things would've gone had it shaked out that way....

Who would we've hired? How different would things be? Or would it be pretty similar?

Well, the biggest thing is we would have had an athletic director who unless it was a complete moron of an AD there is no way in hell they hire Arnett.

Had Leach survived I don't know how long he would have coached but without an AD in place and a senior laden team and a favorable schedule in 2023 I'm 99% sure we would have asked him to return coming off of a 9 win season.

Honestly, if we hire Selmon I think there I think there is a good chance we still have Lebby as our coach eventually. Who knows? Maybe Lebby starts out at Central Florida and we hire him from them.

[Todd4State]

Well the problem with real easy is the logic. First Leach won 8 games. So take that logic, everytime MSU won 8 games the year prior, means the next year we compete for a championship? And that has happened maybe never in MSU history? What facts says we would have had a better team? 2001 we returned the entire offense and was picked to win the SECW but finished last.

Bill Connelly has a formula that he uses to predict team win totals. Returning production is a major part of that and is considered to be a key factor in success. Which means 2001- and if I remember correctly we lost a TON off of our defense from 2000- is a an outlier although I have a feeling that if I did a deep dive it would show that we didn't return as much as you remember.

So, yes it is pretty logical to assume that if we returned most of our players, had an easier schedule and returned the same coach which would have been the case had Leach not passed away- that we would have had a year as good or better in 2023.

[KOdawg1]

The truth is that it's a combination of Leach's bad recruiting, Leach's passing, and then hiring Arnett.

How much you want to weigh each of those is up for debate, but it's not a single factor that caused all of it. It's the culmination of those 3 things plus Cohen's ineptitude when it came to NIL that set us behind from the start.