Talent comparison to other SEC teams

[CaptainObvious]

So we all acknowledge that 4-8 with a more competitive team is improvement but still not acceptable.

How did we get here? Why do Arkansas, Missouri, South Carolina, Ole Miss and Vanderbilt have more talent than Mississippi State? Why are we so far behind Auburn and Tennessee?

I know some blame Leach for only recruiting offensive skill players and some say Arnept dropped the ball completely. And others blame Cohen for not taking NIL seriously.

But there has to be a deeper dive into what pushed Mississippi State all the way to the bottom of a 16 team league.

Please help me understand why we had to go from 5-7 to 2-10 to 4-8 before we can start digging out of this hole.

[MBDawg601]

So we all acknowledge that 4-8 with a more competitive team is improvement but still not acceptable.

How did we get here? Why do Arkansas, Missouri, South Carolina, Ole Miss and Vanderbilt have more talent than Mississippi State? Why are we so far behind Auburn and Tennessee?

I know some blame Leach for only recruiting offensive skill players and some say Arnept dropped the ball completely. And others blame Cohen for not taking NIL seriously.

But there has to be a deeper dive into what pushed Mississippi State all the way to the bottom of a 16 team league.

Please help me understand why we had to go from 5-7 to 2-10 to 4-8 before we can start digging out of this hole.

In the day of the portal and how it continues to evolve with NIL being in play? 3 coaches in 3 years has emptied what little talent we had. Anyone worth looking at was poached. So we are facing a complete rebuild.

Teams with rich tradition like the top 4-5 in the league can get away with this and be fine. They have nice trophies and massive support from boosters to help refill the cupboard.

We do not have a rich tradition of winning anything worth noting. We also have had two back to back first year head coaches. Say what you want, but first head coaching job.. in the SEC. You?re already behind the 8 ball. Better figure it out quick or you will end up at Akron.

I say all of that to say this, I believe Lebby can get it done, but he was not given a whole lot to work with. His already tough task, is 10x harder. It?s going to take some special players and miracles to turn this thing around. Who knows, we could find ourselves looking at an 8 win season this year? a lot of the SEC have unproven starters at QB. It happens from time to time, we need to capitalize.

[Coach34]

Leach's lack of recruiting
Arnett turned out to be a bad move right behind Leach's death
Our reluctance to embrace NIL got us behind
Costs us more than other teams for certain types of players
3 coaches in 3 years

[CaptainObvious]

Has to be deeper! I mean historically. Only Vanderbilt has a worse record as an SEC team all time!

How does a program have that much futility since the end of World War II? Did everybody who had the where-with-all to make the University something special all die in Europe or the Pacific? Short of the decade of the 90's and Mullen's 10 year run, State has been one of the worst SEC football programs ever. WHY?

[TrapGame]

Has to be deeper! I mean historically. Only Vanderbilt has a worse record as an SEC team all time!

How does a program have that much futility since the end of World War II? Did everybody who had the where-with-all to make the University something special all die in Europe or the Pacific? Short of the decade of the 90's and Mullen's 10 year run, State has been one of the worst SEC football programs ever. WHY?

Because Mississippi State University has made some the most dumb ass ****ing decisions when it comes to football.

Spurrier was told no and went to Duke thus starting his storied career. Jimbo Fisher, when he was in his prime, was ready to bring over half the staff with him from LSU, including Muschamp as DC, and LT wouldn't return his phone calls. LT hired Croom instead.

And that's just two examples. There's plenty of others.

[Ranchdawg]

My opinion is that all except Vandy had already well established system of paying players before it was legal. That school up to the north of us (the fake plantation owners) were paying large sums of $$’s to players before NIL. They were buying some of the best players out from under the blue bloods and that is what got them in trouble. If the fake plantation owners had just kept paying the 3-4 star players in Ms they would have never had to deal with the NCAA. In other words “ONLY” the Bama’s, LSU’s, Georgia’s, Auburn’s etc. are allowed to purchase the 5star players and pay big bucks for them. If a have not attempts to play the big boys game they are quickly in trouble and forced to accept their mediocrity so that the blue bloods have someone in the league that they can squash on Saturday without really breaking a sweat. Oh sure there are those exceptions to this rule but it is not often. See our overall record against Bama/LSU/Tn.

While these other schools were buying players momma’s houses and buying players new expensive cars. We were buying players momma’s new furniture and buying players mopeds. And now with NIL we are doing the same.

[BrunswickDawg]

It all comes down to money and almost always has. However, the SEC scheduling has done us few favors. Especially since they "changed formats" a few years ago and screwed up the rotation. We have a thin margin between sucking and not sucking and when we make bad decisions we bottom out. A lot of our fans forget though that OM, USc, MO, and Arky have all gone thru the same cycle we are in now over the past decade.

[confucius say]

We had been to 13 straight bowls and were 8-4 when our coach died. Let's not act like we couldn't keep up with the ark, USCe, Mizzou, Vandy, KY, and Mississippi's.

Leach was never a recruiter so there were massive gaps in the roster that a new coach was going to have to deal with.
Arnett was way in over his head.
Cohen was so clueless about NIL that we funded our entire 2023 roster for well below 7 figures while our rival did 10 times that.
So we're having to dig out of a hole to get back to 2010-2022 level. We're on the way back though.

[99jc]

Actually we don't know for sure what are talent is with the turnover we had and to say vandy and arky have more talent is beyond stupidity right now!

[confucius say]

Actually we don't know for sure what are talent is with the turnover we had and to say vandy and arky have more talent is beyond stupidity right now!

I started to say same. Our roster talent may be much closer to say 2012 than 2024.

[Coach34]

Because Mississippi State University has made some the most dumb ass ****ing decisions when it comes to football.

Spurrier was told no and went to Duke thus starting his storied career. Jimbo Fisher, when he was in his prime, was ready to bring over half the staff with him from LSU, including Muschamp as DC, and LT wouldn't return his phone calls. LT hired Croom instead.

And that's just two examples. There's plenty of others.

Those are great examples but if we want to go back 75 years its plainly our lack of money.

We had to sell home football games to fund our athletic programs for decades. LSU played games on campus in front of 50K plus in the 50's. State homes games in the 50's would draw 20K at most unless it was the Egg Bowl. Shit, we even sold a home game to Fla in the early 90's for One millllllllllion dollars (insert Dr Evil voice). We have literally been the poor stepchild of the SEC for most people's lifetimes.

I'm pretty sure we were the last team in the SEC to get a wooden floor for basketball. I remember watching in the early to mid-80's with us having that rubber mat basketball court like a high school team. Bob Boyd- our basketball coach- used to recruit almost exclusively by phone. We didnt have much of a recruiting budget

We built a top baseball stadium at State before we did anything big for football or basketball

[1eyedog]

Leach's lack of recruiting
Arnett turned out to be a bad move right behind Leach's death
Our reluctance to embrace NIL got us behind
Costs us more than other teams for certain types of players
3 coaches in 3 years

I would add Mullen leaving on the verge of pushing the DOGS to a national level team, Jo Moe.....squandering the greatest assembly of defensive talent in school history. om hiring LK that had a greater long term scheme than CML. Arenett that I wanted to do well but was a YUGE mistake. The last years of Mullen job hunting, Leach a narrow scheme so recruiting was also narrow focused. Arnett just a bad hire....Perfect storm of years of limited recruiting......and as bad as I hate to admit....LK is one heck of an overall coach that is able to keep or recruit good Assistant coaches......That being said......Go DOGS....come one Coach Lebby.....Absolutely need to beat om this year....A must.

[Todd4State]

We were 9-4 Leach's last season. Then we hired Arnett.

People want to blame Leach's recruiting but that's a lame excuse from the Arnett supporters making excuses for him destroying our program trying to make us "Mississippi State football" again.

If Leach was still alive we would have Sawyer Robertson as our QB who is a Heisman contender this year. Leach also brought in Makai Polk, Justin Robinson who became the Outback Bowl MVP, he kept Tulu after Moorhead was fired, RaRa was a good receiver for us, and so was Zavion Thomas who were both Leach recruits poached from MSU by bluebloods. Trench's? He brought in Albert Reese who won the Hull trophy last year, Charles Cross, brought in Canon Boone who might be our starting center this year and also added in Steven LaSoya who was a quality o-line recruit.

Even defensively we recruited better- he brought in Forbes who wasn't recruited by Buckley for some weird reason, Tyrus Wheat, Jackie Matthews, Decamrion Richardson, Randy Charlton, Marcus Banks, and Jordan Davis were all quality players.

And a lot of those we got out of the portal despite Cohen sucking at the portal so I don't think it was that.

The quality of players dropped off after Leach passed away and it had nothing to do with Leach or the Air Raid. There's a reason why Stonka, SanFrisco, Harrell, and MVB committed almost immediately after Lebby was hired. Arnett and the boosters friends like Brad Peterson, Will Friend, Kevin Barbay, and etc were radioactive toxic. You go from a HOF coach to a medicore coaching staff running the worst offense I have ever seen in my life and you get what we got. How MSU handled Leach's death was a really bad look and it has taken a couple of years (and maybe going) to fix it.

[Todd4State]

It all comes down to money and almost always has. However, the SEC scheduling has done us few favors. Especially since they "changed formats" a few years ago and screwed up the rotation. We have a thin margin between sucking and not sucking and when we make bad decisions we bottom out. A lot of our fans forget though that OM, USc, MO, and Arky have all gone thru the same cycle we are in now over the past decade.

Everyone cycles out. Even Bama. It's just that the teams with more money and tradition and resources takes longer to do it. The rest of us it's shorter and perhaps lower.

[Matt3467]

We were 9-4 Leach's last season. Then we hired Arnett.

People want to blame Leach's recruiting but that's a lame excuse from the Arnett supporters making excuses for him destroying our program trying to make us "Mississippi State football" again.

If Leach was still alive we would have Sawyer Robertson as our QB who is a Heisman contender this year. Leach also brought in Makai Polk, Justin Robinson who became the Outback Bowl MVP, he kept Tulu after Moorhead was fired, RaRa was a good receiver for us, and so was Zavion Thomas who were both Leach recruits poached from MSU by bluebloods. Trench's? He brought in Albert Reese who won the Hull trophy last year, Charles Cross, brought in Canon Boone who might be our starting center this year and also added in Steven LaSoya who was a quality o-line recruit.

Even defensively we recruited better- he brought in Forbes who wasn't recruited by Buckley for some weird reason, Tyrus Wheat, Jackie Matthews, Decamrion Richardson, Randy Charlton, Marcus Banks, and Jordan Davis were all quality players.

And a lot of those we got out of the portal despite Cohen sucking at the portal so I don't think it was that.

The quality of players dropped off after Leach passed away and it had nothing to do with Leach or the Air Raid. There's a reason why Stonka, SanFrisco, Harrell, and MVB committed almost immediately after Lebby was hired. Arnett and the boosters friends like Brad Peterson, Will Friend, Kevin Barbay, and etc were radioactive toxic. You go from a HOF coach to a medicore coaching staff running the worst offense I have ever seen in my life and you get what we got. How MSU handled Leach's death was a really bad look and it has taken a couple of years (and maybe going) to fix it.

Yea the fumbles were JoeMo and Arnett. People can blame Leach's recruiting but we were winning and really can't help that he happened to pass away. It was obvious to see after Will Rogers went to Washington that Leach could put anything in at QB and win games. We had a bright future at QB, Oline and the best WR room I believe we've ever had. I think defense would've gotten better (and it wasn't bad). However, it is true that Leach's scheme made hiring the next coach after him extremely important. We had options for replacement but we hired a dumpster fire that lied about the scheme he was going to run to keep the players from running off.

[Coach34]

Leach wasnt hired until Jan 2020 so very little of that recruiting class was his. Check out his 21/22 classes and tell me he recruited well.

[Todd4State]

Leach wasnt hired until Jan 2020 so very little of that recruiting class was his. Check out his 21/22/23 classes and tell me he recruited well.

Every single player I mentioned was recruited by Leach. Sure you had a few like Will Rogers, Marks, Dillion Johnson, Bookie, Jett, Camron Young, and Austin Williams that were contributors in 2022 but more than half of the starting lineup were Leach recruits.

[CaptainObvious]

Leach wasnt hired until Jan 2020 so very little of that recruiting class was his. Check out his 21/22/23 classes and tell me he recruited well.

Unless he had an agreement with the ALMIGHTY to continue recruiting in 2023, he isn't responsible for December 2023 recruiting class.😳😳

[Coach34]

Every single player I mentioned was recruited by Leach. Sure you had a few like Will Rogers, Marks, Dillion Johnson, Bookie, Jett, Camron Young, and Austin Williams that were contributors in 2022 but more than half of the starting lineup were Leach recruits.

almost everybody that put up stats in 22 was recruited by someone other than Leach.

Rogers
Marks
Johnson
Harvey
Ducking
Tulu
Williams
Walley

As was most of the D

Those guys were recruited for Leach

[MBDawg601]

I would add Mullen leaving on the verge of pushing the DOGS to a national level team, Jo Moe.....squandering the greatest assembly of defensive talent in school history. om hiring LK that had a greater long term scheme than CML. Arenett that I wanted to do well but was a YUGE mistake. The last years of Mullen job hunting, Leach a narrow scheme so recruiting was also narrow focused. Arnett just a bad hire....Perfect storm of years of limited recruiting......and as bad as I hate to admit....LK is one heck of an overall coach that is able to keep or recruit good Assistant coaches......That being said......Go DOGS....come one Coach Lebby.....Absolutely need to beat om this year....A must.

That defense was all world talent.

Not just school history!!

[Todd4State]

almost everybody that put up stats in 22 was recruited by someone other than Leach.

Rogers
Marks
Johnson
Harvey
Ducking
Tulu
Williams
Walley

As was most of the D

Those guys were recruited for Leach

There is no "recruited for" anymore with the portal. Leach kept those players. Especially Tulu who was on the verge of decommitting until we hired Leach who kept him. If we count Bumphis for Dan as we should- then Leach should get the same credit for keeping Tulu. Harvey was a late add by Leach as well due to changing offenses. RaRa was our best receiver by YPR in 2022. NIL and the portal really only hurt us with Polk who was the most productive MSU WR since Fred Ross and was a Leach commit. Also most of our offensive line- Cole Smith, Lasoya, Nick Jones- were Leach recruits and I could include Percy Lewis who was rotated in heavily. We also had a Heisman candidate QB on the bench and the Outback Bowl MVP and four star Zavion Thomas were on the bench too and both had a big impact on the season by the end.

On defense, Charlton made one of the biggest plays in the Egg Bowl, DeShawn Page was a starter but almost all of the secondary were Leach recruits- Forbes, Richardson, Jalen Green, and Jackie Matthews were Leach recruits. Collin Duncan wasn't and he was our worst player in the secondary- so thanks Joe I guess. No idea why Marcus Banks didn't start over him.

Both kickers were Leach recruits as well.

Heck- THIS year there is a good chance that there will be more Leach recruits starting than Arnett recruits- Boone, Reese, and Mosley on offense and Trevion Williams ,Zakari Tillman and Kelley Jones. And I really should include Isaac Smith who committed days after Leach passed away and Seth Davis who will be a good role player for us.

[Coach34]

There is no "recruited for" anymore with the portal. Leach kept those players. Especially Tulu who was on the verge of decommitting until we hired Leach who kept him. If we count Bumphis for Dan as we should- then Leach should get the same credit for keeping Tulu. Harvey was a late add by Leach as well due to changing offenses. RaRa was our best receiver by YPR in 2022. NIL and the portal really only hurt us with Polk who was the most productive MSU WR since Fred Ross and was a Leach commit. Also most of our offensive line- Cole Smith, Lasoya, Nick Jones- were Leach recruits and I could include Percy Lewis who was rotated in heavily. We also had a Heisman candidate QB on the bench and the Outback Bowl MVP and four star Zavion Thomas were on the bench too and both had a big impact on the season by the end.

On defense, Charlton made one of the biggest plays in the Egg Bowl, DeShawn Page was a starter but almost all of the secondary were Leach recruits- Forbes, Richardson, Jalen Green, and Jackie Matthews were Leach recruits. Collin Duncan wasn't and he was our worst player in the secondary- so thanks Joe I guess. No idea why Marcus Banks didn't start over him.

Both kickers were Leach recruits as well.

Heck- THIS year there is a good chance that there will be more Leach recruits starting than Arnett recruits- Boone, Reese, and Mosley on offense and Trevion Williams ,Zakari Tillman and Kelley Jones. And I really should include Isaac Smith who committed days after Leach passed away and Seth Davis who will be a good role player for us.

hilarious. Thats CNN level spin. The major players of 2022 were guys that werent recruited by Leach. His recruiting was shit. Spin away

[confucius say]

hilarious. Thats CNN level spin. The major players of 2022 were guys that werent recruited by Leach. His recruiting was shit. Spin away

I think he would have been fine getting offensive talent. Especially once we had a qb that was a sec talent. Kids would want to play in that system with a talented QB (love will but he was limited physically).

But yea, the writing was on the wall defensively.

[Coach34]

I think he would have been fine getting offensive talent. Especially once we had a qb that was a sec talent. Kids would want to play in that system with a talented QB (love will but he was limited physically).

He could have certainly kept pulling some WR's and QB's

[PGHBulldogBG]

We have always had a talent deficit in the SEC but the difference was with Mullen and Leach we won a lot of games because they were good coaches. Now we neither and didn?t with Croom, Arnett or Moorhead

[Todd4State]

hilarious. Thats CNN level spin. The major players of 2022 were guys that werent recruited by Leach. His recruiting was shit. Spin away



CNN level spin would be presenting narrative like saying that Leach was a bad recruiter without presenting facts. I presented facts. Like Scott Jennings.

[Todd4State]

I think he would have been fine getting offensive talent. Especially once we had a qb that was a sec talent. Kids would want to play in that system with a talented QB (love will but he was limited physically).

But yea, the writing was on the wall defensively.

Based on my research Leach actually recruited the portal well on both sides of the ball. Honestly, I think he would have done even better with our current resources. Only because he did pretty well without the resources.

[Todd4State]

We have always had a talent deficit in the SEC but the difference was with Mullen and Leach we won a lot of games because they were good coaches. Now we neither and didn?t with Croom, Arnett or Moorhead

This is true. But part of the problem is MSU's overall lack of commitment to football recruiting which I think goes back to going on probation multiple times which I blame on the administration for not standing up for MSU. Also, Dan wasn't a good recruiter either and had issues with roster management that held us back while he was our coach.

[confucius say]

This is true. But part of the problem is MSU's overall lack of commitment to football recruiting which I think goes back to going on probation multiple times which I blame on the administration for not standing up for MSU. Also, Dan wasn't a good recruiter either and had issues with roster management that held us back while he was our coach.

Dan was a much better recruiter than we give him credit for. He wasn't personable and didn't enjoy it, but the results speak for themselves.

[Jacknut]

Well, when you go from a system guy (Leach) and compound that with someone not able to do the job and changing the system (Arnett), you get last year. Fortunately, the portal (managed correctly) provides instant relief.

[R2Dawg]

We have always had a talent deficit in the SEC but the difference was with Mullen and Leach we won a lot of games because they were good coaches. Now we neither and didn?t with Croom, Arnett or Moorhead

Massive talent gap between Mullen teams and Leach teams - history of the players says so. I don't care if Mullen was a developmental guy or not, he had NFL talent on every team.

[R2Dawg]

This is true. But part of the problem is MSU's overall lack of commitment to football recruiting which I think goes back to going on probation multiple times which I blame on the administration for not standing up for MSU. Also, Dan wasn't a good recruiter either and had issues with roster management that held us back while he was our coach.

Wild take; look at the NFL talent Dan assembled? Not counting Cam that he almost got too. Mullen probably got the most talent on campus as anyone. Jackie would be right behind him. Not ironically, two most successful coaches in MSU history.

[R2Dawg]

Based on my research Leach actually recruited the portal well on both sides of the ball. Honestly, I think he would have done even better with our current resources. Only because he did pretty well without the resources.

Other than QB and WR, what positions did he recruit well at?

Hard to miss on WR when you sign 25 and a WR knows you throw the ball 50-60 times a game.

He ignored the trenches and defense.

[Coach34]

Other than QB and WR, what positions did he recruit well at?

Hard to miss on WR when you sign 25 and a WR knows you throw the ball 50-60 times a game.

He ignored the trenches and defense.

Exactly. The facts as Todd tried to spin come down to the simple fact that Leach's best players were recruited by previous coaches

[PGHBulldogBG]

Leach was not necessarily the greatest recruiter, but that was also because his system was geared towards certain types of players. His steady improvement each year he was here along with his past track record proves that he would?ve continued to be successful here. I can?t say if he would?ve ever made the playoffs, but I guarantee we would be in a better situation than we are today. Mullen made it known he hated recruiting and was lazy with it, hence his issues at UF. He did well though with finding NFL talent that high school recruiting services did not find. Neither Leach nor Mullen were perfect, but they are both by far better than anyone else we have had in the past 20-25 years.

[Todd4State]

Wild take; look at the NFL talent Dan assembled? Not counting Cam that he almost got too. Mullen probably got the most talent on campus as anyone. Jackie would be right behind him. Not ironically, two most successful coaches in MSU history.

It's not about what he got for me as much as what he could have and should have potentially gotten that he didn't. What he missed on would have been able to get us at least 1-2 more wins a year and that is absolutely program changing to say the least. Cam is actually a good example. He wasn't willing to do what he needed to do to get him even though at that time he would have had plenty of booster support to pull it off. And he missed on AJ Brown and you just can't do that with a prospect like that in your backyard because again he wasn't willing to play the game he needed to go it done. We had two separate seasons where we had to start a DT and a TE on the o-line because we missed on o-line recruiting. Look at how many WR's and o-linemen Dan put in the NFL compared to defensive players and running backs. And even on two of those- Martinas Rankin could have helped us in 2015 when we redshirted him when we started Warren at OT and it took until midseason of 2016 to figure out that Elgton Jenkins was one of our best o-linemen.


Other than QB and WR, what positions did he recruit well at?

Hard to miss on WR when you sign 25 and a WR knows you throw the ball 50-60 times a game.

He ignored the trenches and defense.

He didn't "ignore" it. Read my posts in this thread and I've already spelled it out very clearly. Who recruited Albert Reese the best offensive lineman in the state last year? He was able to keep Charles Cross and developed him as well. On defense he was able to land Forbes and Decamarion Richardson and basically our entire secondary in the portal and he recruited Isaac Smith, Trevion Williams, and Kelley Jones among others who are still playing and will be starters/major contributors for us this season. And our defensive line would have had major problems if he didn't add in Randy Charlton.

[MBDawg601]

Wild take; look at the NFL talent Dan assembled? Not counting Cam that he almost got too. Mullen probably got the most talent on campus as anyone. Jackie would be right behind him. Not ironically, two most successful coaches in MSU history.

Offensively? Dak and??

Defensively, I would be here all day.

[Hot Rock]

Because Mississippi State University has made some the most dumb ass ****ing decisions when it comes to football.

Spurrier was told no and went to Duke thus starting his storied career. Jimbo Fisher, when he was in his prime, was ready to bring over half the staff with him from LSU, including Muschamp as DC, and LT wouldn't return his phone calls. LT hired Croom instead.

And that's just two examples. There's plenty of others.

Not saying what you said is wrong, just that it is incomplete. Decisions were made poorly, starting with the firing of Allyn McKeen back in the late 40's but it's mostly due to the absolute fact Mississippi State has been the smallest and poorest of all the SEC schools and it's not close.

We had to sell home games to other schools just be able to afford sports because no one came to our games. 20-30,000 when other SEC schools had 80-100,000 at games.

Then yes, the modern era State has had it's share of issues like you pointed out, including that we did not and do not fully embrace NIL.

[TrapGame]

Not saying what you said is wrong, just that it is incomplete. Decisions were made poorly, starting with the firing of Allyn McKeen back in the late 40's but it's mostly due to the absolute fact Mississippi State has been the smallest and poorest of all the SEC schools and it's not close.

We had to sell home games to other schools just be able to afford sports because no one came to our games. 20-30,000 when other SEC schools had 80-100,000 at games.

Then yes, the modern era State has had it's share of issues like you pointed out, including that we did not and do not fully embrace NIL.

It's been a plethora of stupid ass, knucklehead decisions.

[R2Dawg]

Offensively? Dak and??

Defensively, I would be here all day.

He had good OL every year. WR were plenty talented good enough to win in SEC. RB were plenty good too. - AD, Vic Ballard, Robinson, and plenty of 4star rated talent at RB.

[R2Dawg]

It's not about what he got for me as much as what he could have and should have potentially gotten that he didn't. What he missed on would have been able to get us at least 1-2 more wins a year and that is absolutely program changing to say the least. Cam is actually a good example. He wasn't willing to do what he needed to do to get him even though at that time he would have had plenty of booster support to pull it off. And he missed on AJ Brown and you just can't do that with a prospect like that in your backyard because again he wasn't willing to play the game he needed to go it done. We had two separate seasons where we had to start a DT and a TE on the o-line because we missed on o-line recruiting. Look at how many WR's and o-linemen Dan put in the NFL compared to defensive players and running backs. And even on two of those- Martinas Rankin could have helped us in 2015 when we redshirted him when we started Warren at OT and it took until midseason of 2016 to figure out that Elgton Jenkins was one of our best o-linemen.



He didn't "ignore" it. Read my posts in this thread and I've already spelled it out very clearly. Who recruited Albert Reese the best offensive lineman in the state last year? He was able to keep Charles Cross and developed him as well. On defense he was able to land Forbes and Decamarion Richardson and basically our entire secondary in the portal and he recruited Isaac Smith, Trevion Williams, and Kelley Jones among others who are still playing and will be starters/major contributors for us this season. And our defensive line would have had major problems if he didn't add in Randy Charlton.

No offense but Reese is 2nd team now. Forbes and Decam were good college players. Cross was sorta a bust. But you only list a few players and half were just moderately successful. Add about 12 more and you got one decent team but we never had it.

[confucius say]

Forbes was an elite college player.
So was cross. First rounder.

But joe signed both of those guys.
Leach signed the 21 and 22 classes. Go look at the lineman in those classes. Especially D line. Woof.

[Todd4State]

No offense but Reese is 2nd team now. Forbes and Decam were good college players. Cross was sorta a bust. But you only list a few players and half were just moderately successful. Add about 12 more and you got one decent team but we never had it.

Saying that a top 10 NFL draft pick was sort of a bust is a message boards genius level post.

Reese might be second team- for now. The fact of the matter is he is another draft pick whether he starts or not and he did win the Hull Trophy last year. So if he is getting beat out that's a really good thing for us as far as this season goes.

[Todd4State]

Forbes was an elite college player.
So was cross. First rounder.

But joe signed both of those guys.
Leach signed the 21 and 22 classes. Go look at the lineman in those classes. Especially D line. Woof.

Joe or really T-Buck wasn't recruiting Forbes at all. We wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't made a coaching change. Cross was also on the verge of flipping until we brought in Leach. He gets some credit for the 2020 class just like Dan gets some credit for Croom's last class.

[Homedawg]

Joe or really T-Buck wasn't recruiting Forbes at all. We wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't made a coaching change. Cross was also on the verge of flipping until we brought in Leach. He gets some credit for the 2020 class just like Dan gets some credit for Croom's last class.

Cross was a fr in 19. Leach has ZERO to do w him. Not Forbes. His recruiting was trash. Period.

[MBDawg601]

He had good OL every year. WR were plenty talented good enough to win in SEC. RB were plenty good too. - AD, Vic Ballard, Robinson, and plenty of 4star rated talent at RB.

I am not disagreeing with you. We didn't litter the NFL with offensive talent though.. We had a lot of great college players that never panned out.

[confucius say]

Saying that a top 10 NFL draft pick was sort of a bust is a message boards genius level post.

Reese might be second team- for now. The fact of the matter is he is another draft pick whether he starts or not and he did win the Hull Trophy last year. So if he is getting beat out that's a really good thing for us as far as this season goes.

You think Reese gets drafted?

[confucius say]

Joe or really T-Buck wasn't recruiting Forbes at all. We wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't made a coaching change. Cross was also on the verge of flipping until we brought in Leach. He gets some credit for the 2020 class just like Dan gets some credit for Croom's last class.

No. Forbes signed in December 2019 when Joe was the coach. He literally said in the linked article "a lot of it was about coach Moorhead and coach Buckley, that was a reason I wanted to go ahead and sign early."

https://247sports.com/college/mississippi-state/article/mississippi-state-signee-emmanuel-forbes-140772021/

Cross also signed when Joe was the coach.

[confucius say]

Joe or really T-Buck wasn't recruiting Forbes at all. We wouldn't have gotten him if we hadn't made a coaching change. Cross was also on the verge of flipping until we brought in Leach. He gets some credit for the 2020 class just like Dan gets some credit for Croom's last class.

How does he get credit for the 2020 class that signed in December 2019 when Joe was the coach?

Dan gets some credit for the 2009 class because he became the coach in December 2008 and signing day wasn't until February 2009.

[Homedawg]

How does he get credit for the 2020 class that signed in December 2019 when Joe was the coach?

Dan gets some credit for the 2009 class because he became the coach in December 2008 and signing day wasn't until February 2009.
He doesn't.

[Todd4State]

No. Forbes signed in December 2019 when Joe was the coach. He literally said in the linked article "a lot of it was about coach Moorhead and coach Buckley, that was a reason I wanted to go ahead and sign early."

https://247sports.com/college/mississippi-state/article/mississippi-state-signee-emmanuel-forbes-140772021/

Cross also signed when Joe was the coach.


How does he get credit for the 2020 class that signed in December 2019 when Joe was the coach?

Dan gets some credit for the 2009 class because he became the coach in December 2008 and signing day wasn't until February 2009.

Fair enough. So let's run through what Leach recruited.

QB- Sawyer Robertson- Heisman candidate that Arnett ran off for Mike Wright.

RB- Seth Davis who has been the surprise of camp at what Matt Wyatt thought was our deepest position and is now running third ahead of Johnnie Daniels.

WR- Makai Polk, Zavion Thomas, Jamal Mosley who is competing for a starting job and will certainly be in the WR rotation, Jamire Calvin, and former bowl MVP Justin Robinson. Creed Whittemore will be a productive receiver in college as well.

TE- Got me here!

OL- Cole Smith and Albert Reese who were both Hull Award winners and to answer your question yes I do think he gets drafted. NFL scouts have a hand in who wins the Hull Trophy after all and almost all of the previous winners were drafted. Then you have Canon Boone who is the leading candidate to start at center for us this year, Percy Lewis who was a four star and starter who moved on to two other SEC schools, Nick Jones, and Stephen LaSoya who moved on to another SEC school and started for Vanderbilt.

DL- Trevion Williams who was our best DL last year, Kalvin Dinkins, Deonte Anderson who all will start or be in the rotation this year and Randy Charlton who made the game saving play to win the 2022 Egg Bowl and started for us. Biggest issue with this group has been injuries.

LB- DeShawn Page who started for us and Zakari Tillman who is competing for a starting role this year.

CB- Kelley Jones who has started and will start and DeCarlos Nicholson who has started at MSU and USC

S- Isaac Smith who will start this year and is probably our best player on defense and likely draft pick, Jackie Matthews, Jalen Green who were both starters, and Marcus Banks who probably should have started and was still very productive.

K/P- Massimo Biscardi and Georgopolous were really good additions after 2021.

And you can say "well he had a lot of Moorhead's players" but Leach was our coach for three years. Of course he was going to play the recruits from the previous staff because he never had time to truly build his team. That said, he wasn't nearly as bad a recruiter as some want you to believe.

The reality is Arnett couldn't coach and was in over his head and hired the worst coaching staff in MSU history on offense and then blamed it on recruiting when their "MSU blue collar" football idea failed miserably.

[BrunswickDawg]

Fair enough. So let's run through what Leach recruited.

QB- Sawyer Robertson- Heisman candidate that Arnett ran off for Mike Wright.

RB- Seth Davis who has been the surprise of camp at what Matt Wyatt thought was our deepest position and is now running third ahead of Johnnie Daniels.

WR- Makai Polk, Zavion Thomas, Jamal Mosley who is competing for a starting job and will certainly be in the WR rotation, Jamire Calvin, and former bowl MVP Justin Robinson. Creed Whittemore will be a productive receiver in college as well.

TE- Got me here!

OL- Cole Smith and Albert Reese who were both Hull Award winners and to answer your question yes I do think he gets drafted. NFL scouts have a hand in who wins the Hull Trophy after all and almost all of the previous winners were drafted. Then you have Canon Boone who is the leading candidate to start at center for us this year, Percy Lewis who was a four star and starter who moved on to two other SEC schools, Nick Jones, and Stephen LaSoya who moved on to another SEC school and started for Vanderbilt.

DL- Trevion Williams who was our best DL last year, Kalvin Dinkins, Deonte Anderson who all will start or be in the rotation this year and Randy Charlton who made the game saving play to win the 2022 Egg Bowl and started for us. Biggest issue with this group has been injuries.

LB- DeShawn Page who started for us and Zakari Tillman who is competing for a starting role this year.

CB- Kelley Jones who has started and will start and DeCarlos Nicholson who has started at MSU and USC

S- Isaac Smith who will start this year and is probably our best player on defense and likely draft pick, Jackie Matthews, Jalen Green who were both starters, and Marcus Banks who probably should have started and was still very productive.

K/P- Massimo Biscardi and Georgopolous were really good additions after 2021.

And you can say "well he had a lot of Moorhead's players" but Leach was our coach for three years. Of course he was going to play the recruits from the previous staff because he never had time to truly build his team. That said, he wasn't nearly as bad a recruiter as some want you to believe.

The reality is Arnett couldn't coach and was in over his head and hired the worst coaching staff in MSU history on offense and then blamed it on recruiting when their "MSU blue collar" football idea failed miserably.

You also had Braedyn Locke - who played in 16 games at Wisconsin and threw for 2700+, 18 TDs and 11 INTs and is now at Arizona.
Audavion Collins (CB) - played all 16 games for Penn State last season, and is a a projected starter in his 3rd season.