Governor's Cup- Lemonis Just isn't Cutting It

[Todd4State]

In baseball if you watch enough of it you can tell when a team is well coached and when a team isn't. And watching our team play it is painful to watch.

I don't think it's a talent issue. I think we are recruiting talent. I think we do Ok in the portal. The biggest criticism there is not landing a Paul Skenes type but that's a tough criticism.

I think the issue is lack of feel for the game and just simply not working hard enough at baseball non-negotiables. A baseball non-negotiable is defense and knowing what to do in fundamental situations. You can say things changed and the coaches got lazy after the NC. My theory is Lemonis never really had it to start with. Landon Sims can make a lot of people look like smart baseball managers. Add in the hottest pitcher in Omaha in Will Bednar and boom NC. Even in 2021 there was bullpen mismanagement and moments where people had major questions. See the SEC Tournament and defensive issues through most of that season plus Eric Cerentola's non development.

Pitching has been the most glaring issue. The same thing that is happening now happened with Foxhall. Pitchers being left in way too long. It seems like everyone in the stands can see the loss of command and the fatigue on the faces of the pitchers except the people making the decisions in the dugout. Maybe it's a coincidence that Parker and Foxhall had the same issue or is it the common denominator? Yes pitching coaches have say in who pitches and in a bullpen game they usually script who is going to pitch but my guess is Lemonis needs to be the adult in the room and steps up and says- hey take him out. And that can't happen after multiple runs are allowed. It just can't. He never errs on the side of caution ever. And keeps getting burned.

It just looks like defense isn't really practiced. Or at least it isn't practiced enough. Our catchers look like they are playing on rolling skates out there. Do we work on blocking balls? And then you have first basemen missing the bag, third basemen misplaying balls, guys not getting in front of balls- it's just an absolute mess.

Speaking of mess- our baserunning and situational hitting is a complete mess. I don't know what the hell Ross Highfill was doing trying to run back to second. Cheese has had issues this year although I didn't see any tonight. We did a poor job of getting bunts down. You had Hunter Hines playing hero ball and failing. And on and on and on.

What it comes down to is this is NOT Mississippi State baseball. It just isn't. There is a standard here and it hasn't been met over the course of four years.

So when we make a coaching change because I just think too much damage has been done we have to get it right. That means someone with head coaching experience. MSU needs to know what they're getting. We have to stop being a training ground for assistants - and that goes beyond baseball. We're not a Sun Belt school. And hell no we can't just promote Parker. I like Parker and I think he is a very good pitching coach. But the fact of the matter is he is part of this mess too. MSU should listen to Robbie Faulk- and then do the exact opposite of whatever he says to do.

Bluebloods don't hire assistants. LSU hired Laval, Manieri, and Johnson. All were head coaches somewhere else before LSU. Arkansas hired Van Horn from Nebraska. Texas hired Garrido, Pierce, and Schlossnagle and all were head coaches somewhere else. Same for MSU with the exception of Cann and we see how that turned out.

What would I do if I were Lemonis? I'd retire at the end of the year because he has pissed off the wrong people. And when that happens- it's over anyway.

[Ranchdawg]

After the lightening delay I’m glad I went to bed. From reading it sounds we shat the bed again with our bullpen. And yet again the same problems that we have had for 3 17’ing years.
1. Leaving pitchers in to long
2. Base running snafu’s(that is imo on players)
3. Defense makes at least 2errors a game and that includes highfill
4. Leaving a army of players on the bases
5. Total non situational hitting
6. Batting approach at the plate
7. Lack of development of players
8. Lack of recruiting for positions no one playing 2nd and not one outfield is a true outfielder
9. This bull crud of never being prepared to start the season and thus losing to non conference teams.

Any single one of the items listed should be enough to have a coach relieved of his duties. But yet here we are losing to the fake plantation owner’s team mid-week. We need a whole new athletic department from top down, burn the whole **** thing down and fire everyone on the staff and get someone in there that demands excellence. Demands no half doing something. Demands coaches do what they are getting paid to do which is win deadgum ballgames!

[Dawgface]

In baseball if you watch enough of it you can tell when a team is well coached and when a team isn't. And watching our team play it is painful to watch.

I don't think it's a talent issue. I think we are recruiting talent. I think we do Ok in the portal. The biggest criticism there is not landing a Paul Skenes type but that's a tough criticism.

I think the issue is lack of feel for the game and just simply not working hard enough at baseball non-negotiables. A baseball non-negotiable is defense and knowing what to do in fundamental situations. You can say things changed and the coaches got lazy after the NC. My theory is Lemonis never really had it to start with. Landon Sims can make a lot of people look like smart baseball managers. Add in the hottest pitcher in Omaha in Will Bednar and boom NC. Even in 2021 there was bullpen mismanagement and moments where people had major questions. See the SEC Tournament and defensive issues through most of that season plus Eric Cerentola's non development.

Pitching has been the most glaring issue. The same thing that is happening now happened with Foxhall. Pitchers being left in way too long. It seems like everyone in the stands can see the loss of command and the fatigue on the faces of the pitchers except the people making the decisions in the dugout. Maybe it's a coincidence that Parker and Foxhall had the same issue or is it the common denominator? Yes pitching coaches have say in who pitches and in a bullpen game they usually script who is going to pitch but my guess is Lemonis needs to be the adult in the room and steps up and says- hey take him out. And that can't happen after multiple runs are allowed. It just can't. He never errs on the side of caution ever. And keeps getting burned.

It just looks like defense isn't really practiced. Or at least it isn't practiced enough. Our catchers look like they are playing on rolling skates out there. Do we work on blocking balls? And then you have first basemen missing the bag, third basemen misplaying balls, guys not getting in front of balls- it's just an absolute mess.

Speaking of mess- our baserunning and situational hitting is a complete mess. I don't know what the hell Ross Highfill was doing trying to run back to second. Cheese has had issues this year although I didn't see any tonight. We did a poor job of getting bunts down. You had Hunter Hines playing hero ball and failing. And on and on and on.

What it comes down to is this is NOT Mississippi State baseball. It just isn't. There is a standard here and it hasn't been met over the course of four years.

So when we make a coaching change because I just think too much damage has been done we have to get it right. That means someone with head coaching experience. MSU needs to know what they're getting. We have to stop being a training ground for assistants - and that goes beyond baseball. We're not a Sun Belt school. And hell no we can't just promote Parker. I like Parker and I think he is a very good pitching coach. But the fact of the matter is he is part of this mess too. MSU should listen to Robbie Faulk- and then do the exact opposite of whatever he says to do.

Bluebloods don't hire assistants. LSU hired Laval, Manieri, and Johnson. All were head coaches somewhere else before LSU. Arkansas hired Van Horn from Nebraska. Texas hired Garrido, Pierce, and Schlossnagle and all were head coaches somewhere else. Same for MSU with the exception of Cann and we see how that turned out.

What would I do if I were Lemonis? I'd retire at the end of the year because he has pissed off the wrong people. And when that happens- it's over anyway.
Cliff notes: bucket man sucks.

[Goldendawg]

This is on Cohen. He shot his big mouth off that we would be getting a known HC who had been to Omaha several times. He had to settle for a mid-pack Big 10 coach from that baseball powerhouse Indiana who won our only NC with alpha dog players mainly recruited from the 4 previous coaches. Last night in his Q and A after another of many losses when asked about catching, he replied he only had "two or three catchers (Is he not sure how many?*), on the team and didn't have much choice. Who's fault is this? All his post game interviews are mostly cut and paste "coach speak". Always one bad inning or pitch, etc. His winning record in the SEC is 33% since the NC, I think. Would you get to keep your job at that failure rate for 3 1/2 years and get paid millions? He led us to our only NC, credit given and we have made him a multi-millionaire. Past time to make a change. What level coaching job do you think he gets after this soon to be post NC debacle? He was always in over his head for SEC baseball as a HC. Caught lightning in a bottle for the NC, failure at this level since.

[Pancho]

Cliff notes: bucket man sucks.

he hasn't sat on a bucket at all this season

[Goldendawg]

he hasn't sat on a bucket at all this season

But the team still "sits" at or near the bottom again in the SEC.***

[Pancho]

true

[BravesDoggy]

This is on Cohen. He shot his big mouth off that we would be getting a known HC who had been to Omaha several times. He had to settle for a mid-pack Big 10 coach from that baseball powerhouse Indiana who won our only NC with alpha dog players mainly recruited from the 4 previous coaches. Last night in his Q and A after another of many losses when asked about catching, he replied he only had "two or three catchers (Is he not sure how many?*), on the team and didn't have much choice. Who's fault is this? All his post game interviews are mostly cut and paste "coach speak". Always one bad inning or pitch, etc. His winning record in the SEC is 33% since the NC, I think. Would you get to keep your job at that failure rate for 3 1/2 years and get paid millions? He led us to our only NC, credit given and we have made him a multi-millionaire. Past time to make a change. What level coaching job do you think he gets after this soon to be post NC debacle? He was always in over his head for SEC baseball as a HC. Caught lightning in a bottle for the NC, failure at this level since.

I understand most hate Lemon and are ready for him to go. But I love the fact that many of you trivialize his and the university?s ONE natty. You act like it just fell in his lap by luck, yet your god hero Cholk never won one in his 98 year career.

[Pancho]

several of us in this forum would have also won a natty had we had the chance.........and been in the same spot and handed the same team

[Coach34]

several of us in this forum would have also won a natty had we had the chance.........and been in the same spot and handed the same team

maybe some of us- but we have a Natty because our pitcher that Lemon recruited and landed turned into Superman in Omaha. People seem to leave out that little bit of info

[StarkVegasSteve]

maybe some of us- but we have a Natty because our pitcher that Lemon recruited and landed turned into Superman in Omaha. People seem to leave out that little bit of info

And Will Bednar is the reason he is still here. Had he not went superhuman, along with ANDY CANNIZARRO recruit Landon Sims(just needed to throw that in there), he would have been fired after 2023.

[Coach34]

And Will Bednar is the reason he is still here. Had he not went superhuman, along with ANDY CANNIZARRO recruit Landon Sims(just needed to throw that in there), he would have been fired after 2023.

Totally agree

[Tbonewannabe]

And Will Bednar is the reason he is still here. Had he not went superhuman, along with ANDY CANNIZARRO recruit Landon Sims(just needed to throw that in there), he would have been fired after 2023.

And Canny recruit TA and Rowdy.

[Tbonewannabe]

Also, Lemonis is at least better than Gene Chizik but not by much. Both have a National Titles partially gifted to them.

[StarkVegasSteve]

And Canny recruit TA and Rowdy.

Rowdy actually was a Cohen recruit.

Rowdy, Westburg, and Foscue were all Cohen guys.

[Political Hack]

I've never seen a Mississippi State coach or scout at PG events in Atlanta. I don't think they have a good feel for the players we bring in. Everyone is caught up in measurables and exit velo and measuring the five tools instead of just saying "which of these guys is the most skilled player?" Recruiting and player scouting has completely shit the bed the last half-decade plus imo... and it's a symptom everywhere, not just at State. They're recruiting players that have elite tools, but not skilled baseball players. That's why you see constant errors and base running mistakes. More Jake Mangum's and fewer donkeys and plus arms that we have teach how to play baseball.

[Todd4State]

I've never seen a Mississippi State coach or scout at PG events in Atlanta. I don't think they have a good feel for the players we bring in. Everyone is caught up in measurables and exit velo and measuring the five tools instead of just saying "which of these guys is the most skilled player?" Recruiting and player scouting has completely shit the bed the last half-decade plus imo... and it's a symptom everywhere, not just at State. They're recruiting players that have elite tools, but not skilled baseball players. That's why you see constant errors and base running mistakes. More Jake Mangum's and fewer donkeys and plus arms that we have teach how to play baseball.

The one area where I have noticed a major drop off from Cohen to Lemonis is Cohen made sure he recruited guys that were guys that could play but also were hardass tough baseball players that played the game aggressively and played hard. The kind of guys that do the extra things. That's how you end up with an Adam Frazier, a Kendall Graveman, a Jake Mangum, a Rowdey, and a Tanner Allen. Guys that win. Guys that don't wait for someone else to step up.

[maroonmania]

I understand most hate Lemon and are ready for him to go. But I love the fact that many of you trivialize his and the university?s ONE natty. You act like it just fell in his lap by luck, yet your god hero Cholk never won one in his 98 year career.

It's the only one we have in a team sport in the history of the university so I doubt anyone is trivializing it. I'm sure not. And the natty is what saved Lemonis after 2 seasons worth of embarrassing baseball in 2022 and 2023 and is why he is still here today. Goodness knows he's been given a pretty long leash to get this train back on track but it just hasn't happened.

[Political Hack]

The one area where I have noticed a major drop off from Cohen to Lemonis is Cohen made sure he recruited guys that were guys that could play but also were hardass tough baseball players that played the game aggressively and played hard. The kind of guys that do the extra things. That's how you end up with an Adam Frazier, a Kendall Graveman, a Jake Mangum, a Rowdey, and a Tanner Allen. Guys that win. Guys that don't wait for someone else to step up.

Agree a million percent. Those are the kinds of guys that win championships... and at worst, make a run at it. I could walk into East Cobb's baseball park almost any weekend and find 9 17u guys that would boat race us right now.

[BravesDoggy]

It's the only one we have in a team sport in the history of the university so I doubt anyone is trivializing it. I'm sure not. And the natty is what saved Lemonis after 2 seasons worth of embarrassing baseball in 2022 and 2023 and is why he is still here today. Goodness knows he's been given a pretty long leash to get this train back on track but it just hasn't happened.

I don?t care one way or the other that it has or hasn?t caused him to hold on to the job. My point is people are coming up with all kinds of stupid like he lucked into a natty with no skill whatsoever, meanwhile the god midget Cholk has exactly zero natties.

[Todd4State]

I don?t care one way or the other that it has or hasn?t caused him to hold on to the job. My point is people are coming up with all kinds of stupid like he lucked into a natty with no skill whatsoever, meanwhile the god midget Cholk has exactly zero natties.

Polk also coached in a completely different era. When we hired him we had only been to Omaha once and had ZERO wins in Omaha. He won our first ever CWS game in 1979 and honestly I don't really think our fans or any fans in the SEC believed a SEC team could win a NC in baseball until our 1985 team came close. We weren't the first to do it but I'm pretty sure if we brought back 1979 Polk in a time machine we would win some National Championships in this current environment.

Oh yeah- he also recruited a guy named John Cohen so that set some things in order down the road that led to our NC.

Lemonis basically deserves credit for not pulling a Moorhead in baseball.

[confucius say]

Lemonis did a great job in 2021. He took a team with no mlb guys that hit .287 as a team and won a title. He pushed all the right buttons. He managed well. When to back off annd when to push. Ask TA and rowdy.

That he deserves to be fired now doesn't change that.

[CaptainObvious]

Nah. He backed into it in 2021. Swept by Arkansas in Starkville, lost 2 of 3 to Missouri the weekend before the SEC tourney, got run-ruled against Florida and Tennessee in back to back games in Hoover(TN run-rule was a losers bracket game) then got a favorable top 8 seed (7) anyway after going 1-4 those last 2 weeks. Didn't have to face Tennessee again in Omaha and missed the hottest team in the country, NC State. Yep. He had a horseshoe up his ass against Virginia, being no-hit for 7 innings, before the 3 guys carrying that team took over late.

[DownwardDawg]

Nah. He backed into it in 2021. Swept by Arkansas in Starkville, lost 2 of 3 to Missouri the weekend before the SEC tourney, got run-ruled against Florida and Tennessee in back to back games in Hoover(TN run-rule was a losers bracket game) then got a favorable top 8 seed (7) anyway after going 1-4 those last 2 weeks. Didn't have to face Tennessee again in Omaha and missed the hottest team in the country, NC State. Yep. He had a horseshoe up his ass against Virginia, being no-hit for 7 innings, before the 3 guys carrying that team took over late.

I agree with everything except the NC State part. They were the 4th best team out of the four left. State and Texas were in a league of their own. Then Vanderbilt and then NC State. Vandy would have handled them easily but would have had to use one of their pitchers. That's what everyone was so upset about. They were in much better shape entering the Championship series due to that forfeiture.

[Todd4State]

Nah. He backed into it in 2021. Swept by Arkansas in Starkville, lost 2 of 3 to Missouri the weekend before the SEC tourney, got run-ruled against Florida and Tennessee in back to back games in Hoover(TN run-rule was a losers bracket game) then got a favorable top 8 seed (7) anyway after going 1-4 those last 2 weeks. Didn't have to face Tennessee again in Omaha and missed the hottest team in the country, NC State. Yep. He had a horseshoe up his ass against Virginia, being no-hit for 7 innings, before the 3 guys carrying that team took over late.

Let's not act like we've always had awesome "luck" in Omaha. See 1985.

[parabrave]

I've never seen a Mississippi State coach or scout at PG events in Atlanta. I don't think they have a good feel for the players we bring in. Everyone is caught up in measurables and exit velo and measuring the five tools instead of just saying "which of these guys is the most skilled player?" Recruiting and player scouting has completely shit the bed the last half-decade plus imo... and it's a symptom everywhere, not just at State. They're recruiting players that have elite tools, but not skilled baseball players. That's why you see constant errors and base running mistakes. More Jake Mangum's and fewer donkeys and plus arms that we have teach how to play baseball.

analytics have hurt the game.

[Political Hack]

analytics have hurt the game.

Yep. The kids playing at PG today get charted. Spray charts vs fastball, curve, change, etc... are available starting at 8u for only $9.99 a month! Every coach pays it. I saw a 12u team before spring break using wrist bands and shifting pitch to pitch.

[Pancho]

Many of us in this forum are business owners or are high level employees who are compensated on production of a product or service and the bottom line. If Lemons was in a civil position with his output, he'd be pink slipped or broke if he owned the business. He is a pro at the art of just barely getting by and evidently has no idea or any intentions of understanding how to improve or determining his deficiencies. This must end