When Did The Football Downfall Start

[StarkVegasSteve]

Loosely saw this topic on another board regarding the Arnett stuff and just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it. It's obvious our football program hit rock bottom last year. There's no way around it. I do think we're on the way back now though. With that being said, when did this all start? What was the first snowball that got things rolling?

1. Mullen leaving. There's definitely some substance to this one. I mean we had 9 years of stability under Dan and now we are on our 4th coach in 8 years.

2. NIL and the portal. There's definitely a lot here because I think the portal took those guys like Bernardrick McKinney, Darius Slay, Ben Beckwith, etc that would've stayed to be developed and they entered the portal. We've always been a developmental program and the portal killed that. Developmental programs just don't exist anymore.

3. Leach's Recruiting. Say all you want about Mike and how he got every bit of talent out of his guys, and most played above their level. But there was no way to keep those same guys performing at that level outside of Leach's system. Dudek and Emerick just killed us with getting in late on guys, missing on guys, bad evals, etc. Mike also hated recruiting defense and that hurt us. Especially last year because the guys that he and that staff recruited were the upperclassmen. We had one SEC playmaker on the team and Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting in that recruitment.

4. Leach dying, hiring Arnett, and Arnett completely torpedoing the only system the players we had could run and switching to a run first offense. I honestly think this may have been the least detrimental. We gave him 10 games and not even a full recruiting cycle. He was a god awful HC and a sleazy human but we got out of that quickly. It was one of the great tragedies in the history of college football to lose Leach, but from a program standpoint we probably had 1 more year with him. He looked like he was tired and was ready to hang it up. I think he would've ultimately lobbied for Zach to get the job.


Me personally, I think it's probably a mix of the first 3 with number 1 being the biggest one. I think Mullen leaving and being replaced by Moorhead killed our edge. Yea we had it with Jeff and that D but Moorhead was too much of a player's coach and you could see the cracks forming. I mean go back to the UK game where we get 4 unsportsmanlike penalties. Had that edge carried into Leach, I think it's a seamless transition from a culture standpoint and we don't miss a beat. I will always wonder what would've happened had we hired Leach after Mullen and had Minshew with that 18 defense. NIL and Leach are kind of two fold. Leach hated NIL until his last couple of months and we were just going to have to continue to revamp the roster each and every year because we were going to lose guys who put up numbers in the offense. We were never going to be able to consistently keep guys 2-3 years. Also our defensive recruiting was crap. Arnett sucked and how it came to me was unfathomable, but credit to Selmon for moving quick and credit to Keenum and Bracky for structuring that contract to basically have him be an interim HC.

[Gutter Cobreh]

I would say it was 3a. - Leach's passing.

While Moorhead sucked, Leach stabilized the program and we were competitive. The program went completely off the rails when we had to hire a new coach without much time for a system that no one on this planet knew how to run to the level he did.

In saying all that, had we hired someone other than Arnett - we may still be where we are today. At some point, Leach would have retired and we would have had to reboot the philosophy. Maybe though, we would have had enough time in this portal era to do so without the pains we've experienced over the past couple seasons.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I would say it was 3a. - Leach's passing.

While Moorhead sucked, Leach stabilized the program and we were competitive. The program went completely off the rails when we had to hire a new coach without much time for a system that no one on this planet knew how to run to the level he did.

In saying all that, had we hired someone other than Arnett - we may still be where we are today. At some point, Leach would have retired and we would have had to reboot the philosophy. Maybe though, we would have had enough time in this portal era to do so without the pains we've experienced over the past couple seasons.

I'll go back and edit 4 now and add Leach passing into that one.

[Cooterpoot]

John Cohen and Mark Keenum

[bigbub50]

The start of the downfall was hiring Moorhead. We missed on that hire. Yes, he made bowls and beat ole miss but he lost discipline pretty quick and ole miss was down. It was about to be a disaster

Then we made bad decision after bad decision.

Hiring Leach was a bad decision in hind sight in that he only had 3 years left alive. Great coach. Great discipline. But, his reworking of the roster killed our future. Once you go leach, it takes a year or 2 or 3 to rework the roster to get back to non leach football. And Leach wasnt playing the nil and transfer portal game.

Getting out to a slow start on NIL killed this program. AD left because he knew he had screwed that up and Auburn already had it rolling. He fell up hill. We couldnt re work the roster because we didnt have the money to do it.

His death was at a horrible time. Our president choosing to hire Arnette before hiring an AD was the next bad decision. I get that it was horrible timing but AD first, then head coach.

Mullen also made a horrible decision. I know he was burned out with us and wanted to move up and we didnt have a target. But, he would have won 11 games with the team coming back. And now he is at UNLV.

Hiring Moorehead started the downfall. And I got a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach when he was asking our players their ring size when he was introduced.

[Coursesuper]

John Cohen and Mark Keenum

Bingo

[StarkVegasSteve]

John Cohen and Mark Keenum

Keenum got played on that one. He will tell you that as well. Mark got backed into a corner by the old Templeton boosters and the baseball boosters and caved. Cohen was not going to be the baseball coach the next season anyways. He had already decided that in his mind. He was either going to be our AD or sit out the year and then go get the Bama job in the offseason.

[TrapGame]

Moorhead. It started with Moorhead. However, Dan should have sucked it up, coached his ass off in 2018 and he would have had more than Tennessee or Florida wanting him. Dan could possibly have found himself in the NCAA championship game with that team.

We play for that Natty and we aren't looking at hiring Moorhead for anything.

[gtowndawg]

I was going to say 1 but it's 4. I know how we all feel about Moorhead but to the outside observer around the country we still had a good program, won 8 games, went to a new Years Day Bowl. Same with Leach, we had a TON of national recognition, we won some games, bowl games, and he sent us to a New Years Day bowl as well. After he passed we went drove off the side of a cliff going 100 MPH.

https://gifdb.com/images/high/car-driving-off-cliff-and-exploding-g1i2x9z8q9b66ldv.gif

[Cooterpoot]

Keenum got played on that one. He will tell you that as well. Mark got backed into a corner by the old Templeton boosters and the baseball boosters and caved. Cohen was not going to be the baseball coach the next season anyways. He had already decided that in his mind. He was either going to be our AD or sit out the year and then go get the Bama job in the offseason.

Cohen is who Ron Polk said he was. A good coach but-

[Ranchdawg]

IMO it was all that was listed. If Arnett had kept the leech system just to some degree the NIL and portal would have worked to our advantage because we were running a very pass happy system that hardly anybody else was running and receivers/QB’s that were in the portal would have wanted to be a part of the system because it would increased their stats and make them more attractive to NFL. This may idea may be somewhat of a stretch but I believe it is not that far off.

[CaptainObvious]

It was DAN! He proved a good coach with a good scheme and a decent defense could win at State regularly and with the right QB, RB and O-line you could win without Top of the line WR's. Remember the school up north was getting all the wide receivers and we were getting the scraps and those scraps became more than adequate with a mobile QB who could throw it to them because he had time!

So DAN killed the program when he left, because the powers that be thought they could catch lightening in a bottle by going for another coordinator fell flat on their face by not going after Leach right then and there! If he came in 20, he would have come in 18! And I think with that 18 defense, even Leach could have gotten something out of our QB room.


But let me add this. Kiffin has essentially finished the program off! Because for whatever reason. The same powers that be that keeps hiring coordinators instead of going after a big fish and paying the money to get him, have allowed Ole Miss to prove what it takes to be a 9-10 win program when you are handicapped by you geography and recruiting pool!

Ole Miss spends like drunken sailors to be a Top 20 team year in and year out now. They are even willing to take out loans against their mortgages to support their Football program.

Hell, our leaders are afraid to tear down Dorman. They would rather give it an enema and a facelift!

[BrunswickDawg]

I'm going to go further back and say after the 2015 season under Dan Mullen.

Post Dak, Dan realized that he couldn't win at MSU unless he worked harder then he wanted to and/or cheated like Ole Miss.
He also knew that cheating like Ole Miss would never be tolerated at MSU by the NCAA/SEC. He tried to get out, and couldn't.
So he pouted. And that pissed people off. He made a terrible and lazy hire at DC in Sirmon. We then lost a lot in the 2016 recruiting class on Signing Day (which took a great class down to a good class). He refused to do what was best for the program and name Nick Fitz QB1 after spring camp in '16 and split the team. That season really started the chain of events that caused a lot of the issues - for football and the athletic department as a whole. Yes, he recovered for 2017 - saved by a ridiculously large JUCO haul that blessed us but also created a majorly unbalanced roster that hurt Leach as he was coming in. It also helped push Stricklin out the door and puts Cohen in the drivers seat.

[StarkVegasSteve]

IMO it was all that was listed. If Arnett had kept the leech system just to some degree the NIL and portal would have worked to our advantage because we were running a very pass happy system that hardly anybody else was running and receivers/QB’s that were in the portal would have wanted to be a part of the system because it would increased their stats and make them more attractive to NFL. This may idea may be somewhat of a stretch but I believe it is not that far off.

Oh I think all of it contributed. And you know, had Arnett kept the system we might've won a game or two more in 23. But we'd be stuck with Arnett, with coaches he didn't like, running a scheme he wanted no part of. There's also the fact that Mike was the reason the scheme worked. The scheme has been tried a bunch of different places, but the only places it ever succeeded there was one constant: Mike Leach.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I'm going to go further back and say after the 2015 season under Dan Mullen.

Post Dak, Dan realized that he couldn't win at MSU unless he worked harder then he wanted to and/or cheated like Ole Miss.
He also knew that cheating like Ole Miss would never be tolerated at MSU by the NCAA/SEC. He tried to get out, and couldn't.
So he pouted. And that pissed people off. He made a terrible and lazy hire at DC in Sirmon. We then lost a lot in the 2016 recruiting class on Signing Day (which took a great class down to a good class). He refused to do what was best for the program and name Nick Fitz QB1 after spring camp in '16 and split the team. That season really started the chain of events that caused a lot of the issues - for football and the athletic department as a whole. Yes, he recovered for 2017 - saved by a ridiculously large JUCO haul that blessed us but also created a majorly unbalanced roster that hurt Leach as he was coming in. It also helped push Stricklin out the door and puts Cohen in the drivers seat.

Yea 2015 and 2016 Dan not being locked in hurt us. It probably cost us the 15 Egg Bowl(which in turn cost us the Sugar Bowl), 16 South Al, 16 BYU, and 16 Arkansas. He got locked back in for 2017 and we saw what happened. He then zoned out after Don't Stop Believing against Bama in 17 and we were never the same. That night, up until that song ended, was the highest this program has been since and we're still searching for that moment.

[dparker]

I say it's that we keep rolling the dice on the "up and coming" coordinator route. We'll never be able to land the coaches that Bama and LSU can but we don't have to gamble as much as we have been. We can get people that have proven they can manage a program and that understand the current name of the game is "roster management" and not player development. Those type of coaches will move on to bigger and better things but after 3-4 cycles of sustained success we can start looking to be a better destination.

[was21]

Loosely saw this topic on another board regarding the Arnett stuff and just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it. It's obvious our football program hit rock bottom last year. There's no way around it. I do think we're on the way back now though. With that being said, when did this all start? What was the first snowball that got things rolling?

1. Mullen leaving. There's definitely some substance to this one. I mean we had 9 years of stability under Dan and now we are on our 4th coach in 8 years.

2. NIL and the portal. There's definitely a lot here because I think the portal took those guys like Bernardrick McKinney, Darius Slay, Ben Beckwith, etc that would've stayed to be developed and they entered the portal. We've always been a developmental program and the portal killed that. Developmental programs just don't exist anymore.

3. Leach's Recruiting. Say all you want about Mike and how he got every bit of talent out of his guys, and most played above their level. But there was no way to keep those same guys performing at that level outside of Leach's system. Dudek and Emerick just killed us with getting in late on guys, missing on guys, bad evals, etc. Mike also hated recruiting defense and that hurt us. Especially last year because the guys that he and that staff recruited were the upperclassmen. We had one SEC playmaker on the team and Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting in that recruitment.

4. Leach dying, hiring Arnett, and Arnett completely torpedoing the only system the players we had could run and switching to a run first offense. I honestly think this may have been the least detrimental. We gave him 10 games and not even a full recruiting cycle. He was a god awful HC and a sleazy human but we got out of that quickly. It was one of the great tragedies in the history of college football to lose Leach, but from a program standpoint we probably had 1 more year with him. He looked like he was tired and was ready to hang it up. I think he would've ultimately lobbied for Zach to get the job.


Me personally, I think it's probably a mix of the first 3 with number 1 being the biggest one. I think Mullen leaving and being replaced by Moorhead killed our edge. Yea we had it with Jeff and that D but Moorhead was too much of a player's coach and you could see the cracks forming. I mean go back to the UK game where we get 4 unsportsmanlike penalties. Had that edge carried into Leach, I think it's a seamless transition from a culture standpoint and we don't miss a beat. I will always wonder what would've happened had we hired Leach after Mullen and had Minshew with that 18 defense. NIL and Leach are kind of two fold. Leach hated NIL until his last couple of months and we were just going to have to continue to revamp the roster each and every year because we were going to lose guys who put up numbers in the offense. We were never going to be able to consistently keep guys 2-3 years. Also our defensive recruiting was crap. Arnett sucked and how it came to me was unfathomable, but credit to Selmon for moving quick and credit to Keenum and Bracky for structuring that contract to basically have him be an interim HC.

Looks like you pretty much summed it up....nothing else to add

[parabrave]

Loosely saw this topic on another board regarding the Arnett stuff and just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it. It's obvious our football program hit rock bottom last year. There's no way around it. I do think we're on the way back now though. With that being said, when did this all start? What was the first snowball that got things rolling?

1. Mullen leaving. There's definitely some substance to this one. I mean we had 9 years of stability under Dan and now we are on our 4th coach in 8 years.

2. NIL and the portal. There's definitely a lot here because I think the portal took those guys like Bernardrick McKinney, Darius Slay, Ben Beckwith, etc that would've stayed to be developed and they entered the portal. We've always been a developmental program and the portal killed that. Developmental programs just don't exist anymore.

3. Leach's Recruiting. Say all you want about Mike and how he got every bit of talent out of his guys, and most played above their level. But there was no way to keep those same guys performing at that level outside of Leach's system. Dudek and Emerick just killed us with getting in late on guys, missing on guys, bad evals, etc. Mike also hated recruiting defense and that hurt us. Especially last year because the guys that he and that staff recruited were the upperclassmen. We had one SEC playmaker on the team and Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting in that recruitment.

4. Leach dying, hiring Arnett, and Arnett completely torpedoing the only system the players we had could run and switching to a run first offense. I honestly think this may have been the least detrimental. We gave him 10 games and not even a full recruiting cycle. He was a god awful HC and a sleazy human but we got out of that quickly. It was one of the great tragedies in the history of college football to lose Leach, but from a program standpoint we probably had 1 more year with him. He looked like he was tired and was ready to hang it up. I think he would've ultimately lobbied for Zach to get the job.


Me personally, I think it's probably a mix of the first 3 with number 1 being the biggest one. I think Mullen leaving and being replaced by Moorhead killed our edge. Yea we had it with Jeff and that D but Moorhead was too much of a player's coach and you could see the cracks forming. I mean go back to the UK game where we get 4 unsportsmanlike penalties. Had that edge carried into Leach, I think it's a seamless transition from a culture standpoint and we don't miss a beat. I will always wonder what would've happened had we hired Leach after Mullen and had Minshew with that 18 defense. NIL and Leach are kind of two fold. Leach hated NIL until his last couple of months and we were just going to have to continue to revamp the roster each and every year because we were going to lose guys who put up numbers in the offense. We were never going to be able to consistently keep guys 2-3 years. Also our defensive recruiting was crap. Arnett sucked and how it came to me was unfathomable, but credit to Selmon for moving quick and credit to Keenum and Bracky for structuring that contract to basically have him be an interim HC.

Number 1,

[DawgFromOxford]

Downfall started at Leach's unexpected death. Everything else may have played a part but Leach had the program back to a respectable status after the Moorhead debacle. We don't know if that would've continued or if his lack of recruiting would eventually lead to poor results. What we do know is that after his passing, the powers at be made terrible decisions and that lands us where we are today. Dan leaving didn't force Keenum to hire an unproven HC without an AD.

[CaptainObvious]

The BOTTOM LINE: If Lebby doesn't work out, you go and hire a successful G5 or FBS coach and you pay him and his staff WELL based on HIGH expectations and bonus for every win over 7 each year!

[Coursesuper]

Keenum got played on that one. He will tell you that as well. Mark got backed into a corner by the old Templeton boosters and the baseball boosters and caved. Cohen was not going to be the baseball coach the next season anyways. He had already decided that in his mind. He was either going to be our AD or sit out the year and then go get the Bama job in the offseason.

It wasn’t the old Tempelton boosters. These guys are much younger and very politically connected. And the prez got outmaneuvered by this bunch with a little inside help. In true MSU fashion we are our own worst enemy.

[Pancho]

^^^^^^^^^^^

[BuckyIsAB****]

Moorhead tanked it as bad as Arnett, Leach saved it despite our fans never being fully behind him. Dudek was by far the worst thing Leach did. Then he passed and Keenum had to be a leader. And here we are

[viverlibre]

I would say it was 3a. - Leach's passing.

While Moorhead sucked, Leach stabilized the program and we were competitive. The program went completely off the rails when we had to hire a new coach without much time for a system that no one on this planet knew how to run to the level he did.

In saying all that, had we hired someone other than Arnett - we may still be where we are today. At some point, Leach would have retired and we would have had to reboot the philosophy. Maybe though, we would have had enough time in this portal era to do so without the pains we've experienced over the past couple seasons.

When Mike died, we were coming off an 9 win season and would have put up another 9 wins the following year. Where we would be now is anyone's guess though.

[Coach34]

Its a combination of things.

Mullen leaving when he had built the best team in school history started it.
Moorhead was a bad hire and then because of that we went "outside the box" with Leach. His lack of recruiting was going to end up showing but he preempted that by dying before it showed. Then we went with Arnett because of the dissaray to try and hold things together. And that didnt work.

Then we got an AD that made a hire that is always iffy. Mullen was a top OC and worked out. Lebby was a Top OC- we'll see what happens.

But aGAIN- 2022 happened with NIL and you cant compare Mullen with Lebbo. Mullen built this program on being "developmental"- which is what our school had to be. We dont have that option anymore. I dont think anybody can win here now. Football is done at State under this current system

[BigDawg81]

They definitely did their part. While Moorhead wasn?t great , We still went to bowl games and beat our rivals. While Leach was a great coach and a legend, he recruited to his system. There were always going to be a recovery period after Leach because of the players that was on the roster. You had to know that when you was hiring Leach that it will be a complete rebuild after Leach. Cohen really screwed us by not getting a head start on NIL. I really don?t blame Arnett anymore. He just wasn?t ready but you can?t blame him for taking a 4 million dollar job. You can blame Kennum. He rushed a hire but he is not the only one to blame. The boosters had to approve it also. Hindsight is 20/20 but they could have done search easily.

[Todd4State]

Loosely saw this topic on another board regarding the Arnett stuff and just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it. It's obvious our football program hit rock bottom last year. There's no way around it. I do think we're on the way back now though. With that being said, when did this all start? What was the first snowball that got things rolling?

1. Mullen leaving. There's definitely some substance to this one. I mean we had 9 years of stability under Dan and now we are on our 4th coach in 8 years.

2. NIL and the portal. There's definitely a lot here because I think the portal took those guys like Bernardrick McKinney, Darius Slay, Ben Beckwith, etc that would've stayed to be developed and they entered the portal. We've always been a developmental program and the portal killed that. Developmental programs just don't exist anymore.

3. Leach's Recruiting. Say all you want about Mike and how he got every bit of talent out of his guys, and most played above their level. But there was no way to keep those same guys performing at that level outside of Leach's system. Dudek and Emerick just killed us with getting in late on guys, missing on guys, bad evals, etc. Mike also hated recruiting defense and that hurt us. Especially last year because the guys that he and that staff recruited were the upperclassmen. We had one SEC playmaker on the team and Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting in that recruitment.

4. Leach dying, hiring Arnett, and Arnett completely torpedoing the only system the players we had could run and switching to a run first offense. I honestly think this may have been the least detrimental. We gave him 10 games and not even a full recruiting cycle. He was a god awful HC and a sleazy human but we got out of that quickly. It was one of the great tragedies in the history of college football to lose Leach, but from a program standpoint we probably had 1 more year with him. He looked like he was tired and was ready to hang it up. I think he would've ultimately lobbied for Zach to get the job.


Me personally, I think it's probably a mix of the first 3 with number 1 being the biggest one. I think Mullen leaving and being replaced by Moorhead killed our edge. Yea we had it with Jeff and that D but Moorhead was too much of a player's coach and you could see the cracks forming. I mean go back to the UK game where we get 4 unsportsmanlike penalties. Had that edge carried into Leach, I think it's a seamless transition from a culture standpoint and we don't miss a beat. I will always wonder what would've happened had we hired Leach after Mullen and had Minshew with that 18 defense. NIL and Leach are kind of two fold. Leach hated NIL until his last couple of months and we were just going to have to continue to revamp the roster each and every year because we were going to lose guys who put up numbers in the offense. We were never going to be able to consistently keep guys 2-3 years. Also our defensive recruiting was crap. Arnett sucked and how it came to me was unfathomable, but credit to Selmon for moving quick and credit to Keenum and Bracky for structuring that contract to basically have him be an interim HC.

1. Dan leaving was not a bad thing for MSU. It's MSU's responsibility to replace coaches and MSU has failed to do so two out of three times with Lebby being wait and see. Dan being unhappy at MSU wasn't going to change and he would have left us years ago even if he stayed for 2018. I am of the belief that is someone doesn't want to be with you then you should let them go and leave because eventually if you force them to stay then no one is happy. Besides we overcame Dan when we hired Leach. We had two very high profile wins in 2020 over LSU and 2021 over Auburn and then in 2022 we won 9 games. 2022 was basically as good as almost all of Dan's best seasons. But it's the same thing- MSU has failed to replace Leach.

2. That's on Cohen. We don't choose the environment we are in. It is our athletic dept. leader's responsibility to work within the framework of the current environment. I think a lot of fans liked the developmental program idea because MSU fans do not like recruiting. Why? Because MSU fans don't like the drama associated with it especially back in the hat party days and they are not mature enough to handle losing a recruit. Plus MSU fans like the idea of players being around 4-5 years because then they become part of the community. Cohen did not embrace NIL and therefore Leach did not until the end. Which logically makes me think that had we promoted NIL Leach would have been all in for it. Honestly, knowing his personality I could actually see him liking it. Heck- his best QB ever came out of the portal in Gardner Minchew. But as far as NIL and the portal we got behind and we are only now catching up. But once we do thanks to Charlie Winfield we will be fine. To me, there is a lot of opportunity for MSU and the portal. You talk about the 2015 team- we could have easily attracted talent to fill in holes on the defense that year with the portal. We can get recruits we lose back sometimes because of the portal. With NIL Ole Miss can't just throw a bunch of money at a player while we're over here scared to counter because we might get on probation anymore. And that is one of the biggest problems with MSU fans and the AD in general is we tend to look at problems and not possibilities.

3. OK well a couple of things on Leach's recruiting. He recruited players that fit his system. How many times have we complained about a coach running something and the players didn't fit? That was like every year under Croom. And now we're complaining because Leach recruited players that didn't fit what Barbay wanted to run? The offense wasn't the main issue last year. Secondly, if Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting on defensive recruiting why are they not getting more blame? Leach gave the defensive staff carte blanche and they dropped the ball. And then the boosters spun keeping them because of their recruiting.

4. Leach passing away AND not having an AD at the same time really hurt us. And even though it was a tragic event MSU handled that as poorly as you possibly could. We had a senior laden team coming back. What MSU should have done is hire an interim- I would have begged Spurrier, Sr or Stoops to take the job for a year and give them what we would have paid Leach plus a reasonable bonus for doing a good job. Try to retain as many assistants as possible. If Arnett leaves he leaves, you hire a new DC. That could have very well happened after 2022 anyway had Leach lived. What MSU decided to do was let the boosters- the same ones that forced in Cohen and started this shitshow by the way- prioritize their friends and access to keep a recruiting class together which wasn't that impressive anyway. When fans saw Leach's assistants fired for the booster's friends and the offense being changed even though we were told the changes would be minimal plus stuff like finding out that fans were lied to about the interlocking MSU- I think that was just the final last straw for a lot of fans.


I'm going to go further back and say after the 2015 season under Dan Mullen.

Post Dak, Dan realized that he couldn't win at MSU unless he worked harder then he wanted to and/or cheated like Ole Miss.
He also knew that cheating like Ole Miss would never be tolerated at MSU by the NCAA/SEC. He tried to get out, and couldn't.
So he pouted. And that pissed people off. He made a terrible and lazy hire at DC in Sirmon. We then lost a lot in the 2016 recruiting class on Signing Day (which took a great class down to a good class). He refused to do what was best for the program and name Nick Fitz QB1 after spring camp in '16 and split the team. That season really started the chain of events that caused a lot of the issues - for football and the athletic department as a whole. Yes, he recovered for 2017 - saved by a ridiculously large JUCO haul that blessed us but also created a majorly unbalanced roster that hurt Leach as he was coming in. It also helped push Stricklin out the door and puts Cohen in the drivers seat.

And yet we have fans that would take Dan back right now.

But there is a common theme here- who put Cohen in charge and who put Arnett in charge? That group of people should not ever have any say whatsoever into who MSU hires. They have ruined MSU athletics.

And I'll say this about the portal and NIL. It's really ironic because MSU fans hated the old football recruiting stuff but NIL and the portal pretty much killed old school football recruiting. And now those fans hate the portal and NIL!

[Rawdawg]

Allowing Mullen to leave, not Mullen leaving was mistake number 1. Joe was mistake number 2. Leach’s recruitjng sucked yes but the fact we were so unorganized for so long with NIL is the reason it’s taking so long to dig out. The past two rosters were G5 at best.

[Todd4State]

They definitely did their part. While Moorhead wasn?t great , We still went to bowl games and beat our rivals. While Leach was a great coach and a legend, he recruited to his system. There were always going to be a recovery period after Leach because of the players that was on the roster. You had to know that when you was hiring Leach that it will be a complete rebuild after Leach. Cohen really screwed us by not getting a head start on NIL. I really don?t blame Arnett anymore. He just wasn?t ready but you can?t blame him for taking a 4 million dollar job. You can blame Kennum. He rushed a hire but he is not the only one to blame. The boosters had to approve it also. Hindsight is 20/20 but they could have done search easily.

But if we had a strong NIL base and had embraced the portal we could have- and should have- turned over the roster fairly quickly for 2023. You have teams that are signing 40+ players out of the portal sometimes. We signed 25 alone this offseason so far if you include Burroughs the DT that sat out a year and are going to add a few more in the spring. For 2023 we signed 12 transfers out of the portal.

[Todd4State]

Allowing Mullen to leave, not Mullen leaving was mistake number 1. Joe was mistake number 2. Leach’s recruitjng sucked yes but the fact we were so unorganized for so long with NIL is the reason it’s taking so long to dig out. The past two rosters were G5 at best.

I mean- there was no stopping Dan. We counter offered more than Florida. He still left.

[MoreCowbell]

Loosely saw this topic on another board regarding the Arnett stuff and just wanted to get everyone's thoughts on it. It's obvious our football program hit rock bottom last year. There's no way around it. I do think we're on the way back now though. With that being said, when did this all start? What was the first snowball that got things rolling?

1. Mullen leaving. There's definitely some substance to this one. I mean we had 9 years of stability under Dan and now we are on our 4th coach in 8 years.

2. NIL and the portal. There's definitely a lot here because I think the portal took those guys like Bernardrick McKinney, Darius Slay, Ben Beckwith, etc that would've stayed to be developed and they entered the portal. We've always been a developmental program and the portal killed that. Developmental programs just don't exist anymore.

3. Leach's Recruiting. Say all you want about Mike and how he got every bit of talent out of his guys, and most played above their level. But there was no way to keep those same guys performing at that level outside of Leach's system. Dudek and Emerick just killed us with getting in late on guys, missing on guys, bad evals, etc. Mike also hated recruiting defense and that hurt us. Especially last year because the guys that he and that staff recruited were the upperclassmen. We had one SEC playmaker on the team and Gibson and Hughes did the heavy lifting in that recruitment.

4. Leach dying, hiring Arnett, and Arnett completely torpedoing the only system the players we had could run and switching to a run first offense. I honestly think this may have been the least detrimental. We gave him 10 games and not even a full recruiting cycle. He was a god awful HC and a sleazy human but we got out of that quickly. It was one of the great tragedies in the history of college football to lose Leach, but from a program standpoint we probably had 1 more year with him. He looked like he was tired and was ready to hang it up. I think he would've ultimately lobbied for Zach to get the job.


Me personally, I think it's probably a mix of the first 3 with number 1 being the biggest one. I think Mullen leaving and being replaced by Moorhead killed our edge. Yea we had it with Jeff and that D but Moorhead was too much of a player's coach and you could see the cracks forming. I mean go back to the UK game where we get 4 unsportsmanlike penalties. Had that edge carried into Leach, I think it's a seamless transition from a culture standpoint and we don't miss a beat. I will always wonder what would've happened had we hired Leach after Mullen and had Minshew with that 18 defense. NIL and Leach are kind of two fold. Leach hated NIL until his last couple of months and we were just going to have to continue to revamp the roster each and every year because we were going to lose guys who put up numbers in the offense. We were never going to be able to consistently keep guys 2-3 years. Also our defensive recruiting was crap. Arnett sucked and how it came to me was unfathomable, but credit to Selmon for moving quick and credit to Keenum and Bracky for structuring that contract to basically have him be an interim HC.

2018 loss to Florida at home on Dans return. That was the turning point and when, at least for me, my outlook on our entire program went from positive and hopeful to negative. It was a reality check that we were still Miss. State.

[Dawgology]

A/B Leach passing WHILE we were without an AD was what killed the program. I would say the hire of Moorhead is what started the decline which was precipitated by Mullen leaving. But Mullen leaving was inevitable so our response as a program should have been better thought out and executed more efficiently

[Lord McBuckethead]

How about the single play that did us in?.Ole Miss breaking Fitz leg on a cheap shot. That was the start of it.

[Santiago]

All these posts seem to make sense.
Summing it up, it seems it started with alumni forcing the hand of Keenum to hire a baseball coach as AD because "he is one of us".
The only thing to add about Coach Leach, was that he provided us an offense that equalized the talent differential of the top tier SEC teams. I think we still need something like that and a Head coach that knows defense. Vanderbilt has it figured out.

A common theme in all the mistakes is the interference of some boosters who are really bad at this, and have soldiers help carry their message on these boards because they get a couple of pennies of information for it.

[R2Dawg]

Its a combination of things.

Mullen leaving when he had built the best team in school history started it.
Moorhead was a bad hire and then because of that we went "outside the box" with Leach. His lack of recruiting was going to end up showing but he preempted that by dying before it showed. Then we went with Arnett because of the dissaray to try and hold things together. And that didnt work.

Then we got an AD that made a hire that is always iffy. Mullen was a top OC and worked out. Lebby was a Top OC- we'll see what happens.

But aGAIN- 2022 happened with NIL and you cant compare Mullen with Lebbo. Mullen built this program on being "developmental"- which is what our school had to be. We dont have that option anymore. I dont think anybody can win here now. Football is done at State under this current system

Agree with your take.

I'll add something I haven't seen mentioned and I think is as big as NIL and portal for MSU and that is the fall of the JUCO system. This happened in the past 20 years or so.

Yeah MS JUCO is still good nationally but what happened is with everyone dropping academic standards, all these great athletes no longer had to go JUCO to clean up their school record before going D1. That is how JWS built MSU. Mullen took the develop route similar to JWS taking the JUCO route.

Now it is cheat on every level - money, academics, whatever. The ethics of it all is completely gone. It is a game of who can do the most of anything to win.

Bad hires many in a row and bad luck kicked us in the teeth and yes NIL and transfer all with no limits has finished us off.

[StarkVegasSteve]

How about the single play that did us in?.Ole Miss breaking Fitz leg on a cheap shot. That was the start of it.

I knew walking into the stadium that night that Mullen was gone. It was heavily rumored to be Tennessee at that point, obviously it ended up being Florida but the point remains. We had a chance to hire a SITTING P5 HC, and we hired an OC that the HC probably would've chartered a jet to get him out of State College. Nothing that happened in that game affected this.

[Matt3467]

NIL definitely hurts us and it's harder than ever but seeing Ole Miss be successful gives me hope that *we can be* as well. The difference is when it comes to football they've always been willing to do whatever it takes. It wasn't that long ago they were floundering at the bottom. from '10-'20 they went 65/69 overall with a 30/63 conference record and that includes the Freeze years. However having said all that aside from JWS we've shown we care too much about what others think and we'll continue to hire projects hoping to catch a needle in a haystick with Mullen again.

[Coach34]

NIL definitely hurts us and it's harder than ever but seeing Ole Miss be successful gives me hope that *we can be* as well. The difference is when it comes to football they've always been willing to do whatever it takes.

Here is the difference tho- its rumored that Mississippi spent about $15MM on last year's team. You have to figure they will continue to do that as long as they have to.

We, on the other hand, are excited, EXCITED!!!!! that we have upped our spending to $10MM or so. We're not playing the same game as the top of the SEC.

[State82]

We're not playing the same game as the top of the SEC.

They are playing high stakes No-Limit Hold'em and we are playing Go Fish.

[Matt3467]

Here is the difference tho- its rumored that Mississippi spent about $15MM on last year's team. You have to figure they will continue to do that as long as they have to.

We, on the other hand, are excited, EXCITED!!!!! that we have upped our spending to $10MM or so. We're not playing the same game as the top of the SEC.

Is it because we can't match what they are doing spending wise or because we won't?

[Santiago]

Here is the difference tho- its rumored that Mississippi spent about $15MM on last year's team. You have to figure they will continue to do that as long as they have to.

We, on the other hand, are excited, EXCITED!!!!! that we have upped our spending to $10MM or so. We're not playing the same game as the top of the SEC.

You cannot blame it all on people for not blindly throwing money at an organization run by good ole boys.
If you really want to compare - then compare their decision making from the top, and what they have put on the field to generate the excitement.
Also, they do not run down their coach on the interwebs and give him nicknames when he is winning 9 games a year. They fall in line and keep quiet for the most part , especially if winning.
They don't opine for the Billy Brewer RTDF days either. They are progressive and will support any coach that is winning, and in any form or fashion it takes to win.
We on the other hand, have boosters and fans that want it done their way.

I won't give to NIL for a bunch of 18 year olds to have money, when our administration cannot even provide a well run game day experience, make smart hiring decisions, and handle the influence of boosters that caused some of the bad decisions.

Just saying before you keep hounding NIL, there is cleanup to do on our leadership.daily fans and web sites also.

[CaptainObvious]

Is it because we can't match what they are doing spending wise or because we won't?

A lot of both!

[Hot Rock]

I don't get thinking Mullen leaving was the downfall. That happened well before he left when Mullen decided to interview for jobs year after year. Moorhead messed it up but Leach had the program going the right direction as long as he was here. Then he died, can't plan for that, he was plenty young. Arnett destroyed the program and quit on everyone. Lebby came into a situation that is impossible. No players, not enough NIL and what coach in his right mind wanted to coach that defense we were left after everything happened.

I think I am with C34 on this one, State is not going to field a winning program paying 1/3 to 1/2 what the blue bloods pay simply because all our guys can leave at any point if they are good enough to demand high $$$.

What needs to happen is limited transfers more than anything, a limited payroll can be a developmental program if the transfers can be limited through contracts etc...

Contracts are written so players can't leave teams in every other sport that pays anything either by collective bargaining or employee status. Until the schools decide they want to be employers, this is what we got.

We can still do a few things but top 25 is going to be tough.

[CaptainObvious]

You cannot blame it all on people for not blindly throwing money at an organization run by good ole boys.
If you really want to compare - then compare their decision making from the top, and what they have put on the field to generate the excitement.
Also, they do not run down their coach on the interwebs and give him nicknames when he is winning 9 games a year. They fall in line and keep quiet for the most part , especially if winning.
They don't opine for the Billy Brewer RTDF days either. They are progressive and will support any coach that is winning .

Just saying before you keep hounding NIL, there is cleanup to do on our daily fans and web sites also.

Nah! We need nicknames!
We had Croomsickle, Merlins, Croomhead, and Arnept. I think Lebby is a work in progress! Maybe ChevytotheLebby!

I think we should raise funds by charging tariffs for visiting teams to use our visitors locker rooms. If they don't want to pay, just get dressed in the buses!

[The Federalist Engineer]

#1

MSU did not replace DM with the right guy. Momentum slipped and program spiralled down.

Moorehead, Leach, Arnett, Lebby since DM is the sign that things went wrong. So many names. But you knew things were toast when 2018 was wasted.

2018 coaches hired:

* Scott Frost to Nebraska - Huge Bush
* Jimbo Fisher to TAM - expensive and Bustish
* Dan Mullen to UF - Bust
* Chip Kelly to UCLA - Bust
* Willie Targart to FSU - Huge Bust
* Joe Moorhead to MSU - Bust
* Chad Morris to Arkansas - Disaster
* Kevin Sumlin to Arizona - Bust
* Jeremy Pruitt to Tennessee- Disaster Bust
* Billy Napier to LAffy - Inspired
* Sonny Dikes to SMU - Inspired
* Mario Cristobal to Oregon - Inspired
* Matt Luke to OM - Bust
* Josh Heuple to UCF - Good

Had a random MSU fan gotten anybody outside of Gruden, Belichik, and Dungy in 2018. Many folks in would have wanted Pruitt or Chip. Not many takers for Billy, Sonny, or Heuple. All the big names in 2018 ended up sucking.

[gtowndawg]

I saw a video recently of Kirby Smart saying they have "reps" reach out to them to join a scheduled Zoom call to discuss all the athletes in the portal they represent around the country. He said these zoom calls take place before the portal is open AND some of the players currently played for him at Georgia!

[TrapGame]

Here is the difference tho- its rumored that Mississippi spent about $15MM on last year's team. You have to figure they will continue to do that as long as they have to.

We, on the other hand, are excited, EXCITED!!!!! that we have upped our spending to $10MM or so. We're not playing the same game as the top of the SEC.

$15 million and they STILL didn't make the playoffs.

[Santiago]

Nah! We need nicknames!
We had Croomsickle, Merlins, Croomhead, and Arnept. I think Lebby is a work in progress! Maybe ChevytotheLebby!

I think we should raise funds by charging tariffs for visiting teams to use our visitors locker rooms. If they don't want to pay, just get dressed in the buses!

We could sell them eggs, or go to the coach's farm, so they can pay for the MSU "one of us" experience. Or maybe have a day of "run the football" where everyone pays to receive a hand off from the qb on the 50 yard line.
We could generate a few more coins.

This basically was the BS our MSU media and administration was trumpeting while the other school was in the most current century

[bulldogcountry1]

John Cohen and Mark Keenum


Yep. Look at the common denominators.

[Coach34]

You cannot blame it all on people for not blindly throwing money at an organization run by good ole boys.
If you really want to compare - then compare their decision making from the top, and what they have put on the field to generate the excitement.
Also, they do not run down their coach on the interwebs and give him nicknames when he is winning 9 games a year. They fall in line and keep quiet for the most part , especially if winning.
They don't opine for the Billy Brewer RTDF days either. They are progressive and will support any coach that is winning, and in any form or fashion it takes to win.
We on the other hand, have boosters and fans that want it done their way.

I won't give to NIL for a bunch of 18 year olds to have money, when our administration cannot even provide a well run game day experience, make smart hiring decisions, and handle the influence of boosters that caused some of the bad decisions.

Just saying before you keep hounding NIL, there is cleanup to do on our leadership.daily fans and web sites also.

I wasnt blaming anybody in the State family with my post. It's just where we are. We dont have the money to compete with the top of the SEC. At least half the league will be at 15MM in 2025 with a few above 20MM. It doesnt matter what our Gameday experience is like- we arent getting close to what the top half of the conference is doing
Nicknames is my thing. I literally do it for everyone. Yours is Private Santiago- after the character in A Few Good Men. And if you think Mississippi fans dont call out their guys- you didnt pay attention after their Kentucky and Florida losses. Their people went apeshit.
As far as RTGDF its not about running a 1990's offense but it is being like Tennessee currently. Physical upfront with RPO's and PA passes for chunk plays. Even Mississippi was 5th in the SEC in rushing. Their offense is actually enjoyable to watch. Both Tenn and Mississippi are RTGDF offenses with innovation. Hopefully we'll get closer to that this Fall.

Lastly, the point was made and I want to also note that the portal is hurting us probably more than NIL. We could Moneyball things much more easily if players werent allowed to constantly transfer. Both of these things combined are lethal to our program.

[Santiago]

I wasnt blaming anybody in the State family with my post. It's just where we are. We dont have the money to compete with the top of the SEC. At least half the league will be at 15MM in 2025 with a few above 20MM. It doesnt matter what our Gameday experience is like- we arent getting close to what the top half of the conference is doing
Nicknames is my thing. I literally do it for everyone. Yours is Private Santiago- after the character in A Few Good Men. And if you think Mississippi fans dont call out their guys- you didnt pay attention after their Kentucky and Florida losses. Their people went apeshit.
As far as RTGDF its not about running a 1990's offense but it is being like Tennessee currently. Physical upfront with RPO's and PA passes for chunk plays. Even Mississippi was 5th in the SEC in rushing. Their offense is actually enjoyable to watch. Both Tenn and Mississippi are RTGDF offenses with innovation. Hopefully we'll get closer to that this Fall.

Lastly, the point was made and I want to also note that the portal is hurting us probably more than NIL. We could Moneyball things much more easily if players werent allowed to constantly transfer. Both of these things combined are lethal to our program.

appreciate you taking it in stride man.
I have worked hard and had some good luck in my business. Now at a point of maybe donating back and it is really difficult to want to give a dollar of all the sacrifices I made to get here to a 18-20 year old.
It is more appealing to give to a scholarship fund or academics currently than to give to a wasteland .
There is no ROI.
Ole Miss - they are just crazy and worship it way more than we do. We have successful alumni as much as they do.
For me, I just would like to have confidence we have better decision makers for hiring, managing the games, and experiences. Hire smart people, and get this engine built correctly.

[CaptainObvious]

$15 million and they STILL didn't make the playoffs.

But they were certainly closer than State! How much have they spent to average 9.5 wins over the past 3 years? And how much did State spend to go 5-7 and 2-10 the past 2 years? What is the cost to be a Top 20 team playing in Bowls in cities not named Birmingham or Memphis?

[StarkVegasSteve]

Is it because we can't match what they are doing spending wise or because we won't?

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

[BeardoMSU]

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

This.

[Coursesuper]

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

Yes! They understand that winning on the field and the court equals national exposure for their university. It's why they an successfully bring in so many out of state students. The myth of Oxford, The Grove, Harvard of the South etcetera they sell that shit by the bucket full and its all wrapped in red and powder blue on games days broadcast coast to coast on Saturdays. I was just in Tuscaloosa for a conference as part of this we did a campus tour, the kid leading our group was from New Hampshire his brother and sister were in school in the NE. He said the reason he came school there was seeing SEC football on TV and wanting to be a part of that. Winning puts asses in seats in more ways than one.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Yes! They understand that winning on the field and the court equals national exposure for their university. It's why they an successfully bring in so many out of state students. The myth of Oxford, The Grove, Harvard of the South etcetera they sell that shit by the bucket full and its all wrapped in red and powder blue on games days broadcast coast to coast on Saturdays. I was just in Tuscaloosa for a conference as part of this we did a campus tour, the kid leading our group was from New Hampshire his brother and sister were in school in the NE. He said the reason he came school there was seeing SEC football on TV and wanting to be a part of that. Winning puts asses in seats in more ways than one.

All of this. They get it. And a lot of other schools get it. We have a golden opportunity to sell this dream and fantasy of Gamedays in the South to students far and wide and instead we just recruit a 3 hour radius from campus and stop.

[TrapGame]

But they were certainly closer than State! How much have they spent to average 9.5 wins over the past 3 years? And how much did State spend to go 5-7 and 2-10 the past 2 years? What is the cost to be a Top 20 team playing in Bowls in cities not named Birmingham or Memphis?

Let's revisit this in a couple years after Lebby gets going. And if you don't think people in Oxford are not pissed they spent $15 million to NOT make the playoff. They were told this was THE year. Folks took out loans to give to the Grove Initiative. They thought they were playing for a Natty. If the ceiling in Oxford with the best team money can buy is 9-3 there won't be a lot of people forking over retirements and life savings for that.

[TrapGame]

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

I had an older woman with deep ties to State - her Daddy's name is on a building, IIRC-and I know a very healthy bank account tell me she's tired of Selmon calling her for money. She's not paying for players. Then she complained about our football program being shit. She had ZERO self awareness.

[PGHBulldogBG]

I have been a state fan for a little over 20 years now. During that time period, the pendulum swung a bit each way between State and Ole Miss. Overall, they were a bit better than us in football and we were a bit better than them in baseball. We were always able to recover from times we were down by hiring 2 good coaches (Leach and Mullen). The true downfall of Miss State football was Leach's passing. Leach helped us recover from the Moorhead disaster and had us in prime position to go 9-4 again in 2023. Not only did his death impact us significantly, but so did Cohen's inability to comprehend the importance of NIL. From what I understand, we started way behind the 8 ball, but that is not surprising because State in general likes to be the last to the party on things due to the nature of our fanbase and unwillingness to make changes. This is the first time I do not have confidence the pendulum will swing back our way. They have passed us big time in football, they are getting ahead in basketball because they have better coaching and talent overall than us, and baseball is probably about the same even though they are better this year. I legit have no idea what to think of Lebby and I gave him a complete pass year 1, although I would feel better if we had not gone blown out at home by Toledo. An SEC program should never lose to a MAC program unless it is some type of crazy good team like Marshall had in the late 90s with Randy Moss and Byron Leftwich. Toledo only won 7 or 8 games so they were not some exception to the rule. Also it is concerning we lost every single SEC game by double digits. If he does not win more than 4 games I will probably be ready for change, although barring something unethical, he will get year 3.

[schddog72]

THIS!!

[viverlibre]

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

Yuup, no one hates MSU, our programs and our town more than our own fans. OM get's off very easy, they don't even have to expend much energy hating us.

[bulldawg28]

It started when Mullen left. I think Lebby has what it takes to turn things around. I expect improvement this year and a HUGE jump next year.

[R2Dawg]

Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

Agree with some of this. But Leach was a big dividing force at MSU. Leach had went to OM, it would have divided their fanbase too.

The entitlement mentality is what hits a nerve with many MSU folks. OM folks are entitled so they have no issue with selling their soul and giving to entitled athletes. Like it or not this is a big difference in MSU blue collar folks vs Dr/Lawyer rich parents who send their rich kids to OM. I know many MSU fans don't like it but MSU has always been the people's University.

[Todd4State]

You cannot blame it all on people for not blindly throwing money at an organization run by good ole boys.
If you really want to compare - then compare their decision making from the top, and what they have put on the field to generate the excitement.
Also, they do not run down their coach on the interwebs and give him nicknames when he is winning 9 games a year. They fall in line and keep quiet for the most part , especially if winning.
They don't opine for the Billy Brewer RTDF days either. They are progressive and will support any coach that is winning, and in any form or fashion it takes to win.
We on the other hand, have boosters and fans that want it done their way.

I won't give to NIL for a bunch of 18 year olds to have money, when our administration cannot even provide a well run game day experience, make smart hiring decisions, and handle the influence of boosters that caused some of the bad decisions.

Just saying before you keep hounding NIL, there is cleanup to do on our leadership.daily fans and web sites also.

OUTSTANDING POST! You nailed it. Ole Miss has always been a lot more modern in football than MSU where we have fans that are pissed if we don't have the QB under center on every short yardage situation and they don't think it's a real offense unless there is some element of the option. Ole Miss led the SEC in passing offense this past season. They like flash and know that it sells. Even if they lose- hey! We were exciting! MSU has fans that want to win. But they also want to win a certain way.


$15 million and they STILL didn't make the playoffs.

Exactly. They essentially had the same season we had in 2018. If we had the same season we would have fans demanding that Kiffin be fired for losing to Kentucky and our fans would be talking about how we blew it ad nauseum.


Yep. Look at the common denominators.

And the boosters that put Cohen and Arnett in charge.


Let's revisit this in a couple years after Lebby gets going. And if you don't think people in Oxford are not pissed they spent $15 million to NOT make the playoff. They were told this was THE year. Folks took out loans to give to the Grove Initiative. They thought they were playing for a Natty. If the ceiling in Oxford with the best team money can buy is 9-3 there won't be a lot of people forking over retirements and life savings for that.

That's another issue with MSU is fan perception. We go to the Outback Bowl. "What a disappointing season. And the teams we beat really weren't that good." Ole Miss goes to the Outback Bowl. "Gee I wish we would have seasons like that."


Won't. Their fan base understands what it takes to win and rows in the same direction. Ours doesn't. Simple as that.

You can say, "You can't tell me how to spend my money." "A scholarship was enough back in the day" "I won't ever give to players, but I will give to the university" or the thousands of other things I've heard from Mississippi State fans. It comes down to Ole Miss wants to win. From the President down to the $5 fan. They are completely in sync. We are not. There's no consistent message.

Honestly, I think they just prioritize winning at all costs. They've been cheating since the 1940's at least and probably longer. MSU just has a bad habit about worrying about things that don't matter. And it sabotages the program. 2007 is a good example. That year we beat Alabama, Ole Miss, and won a bowl game and 8 games. And all a lot of our fans talked about is how "lucky we were". What a slap in the face to the players on that team. Just absolutely shitty. Because they didn't like Croom. Have you ever heard an Ole Miss fan talk about how when they beat an 8-4 LSU team that LSU wasn't really good that year? Do you ever hear Ole Miss fans complain about running or passing the ball too much? Do you ever hear them talk about how their win over Alabama in 2015 was a complete fluke? Even though that clearly was a fluke. And do you see their fans take the officials side when the officials screw them over? HELL NO. MSU fans do all of that.

And they do a better job of giving their fans what they want. They want powder blue helmets and uniforms- they get it. At MSU we lie about Nike owning the interlocking MSU and then give the fans a shit sandwich of a logo.

[Todd4State]

I have been a state fan for a little over 20 years now. During that time period, the pendulum swung a bit each way between State and Ole Miss. Overall, they were a bit better than us in football and we were a bit better than them in baseball. We were always able to recover from times we were down by hiring 2 good coaches (Leach and Mullen). The true downfall of Miss State football was Leach's passing. Leach helped us recover from the Moorhead disaster and had us in prime position to go 9-4 again in 2023. Not only did his death impact us significantly, but so did Cohen's inability to comprehend the importance of NIL. From what I understand, we started way behind the 8 ball, but that is not surprising because State in general likes to be the last to the party on things due to the nature of our fanbase and unwillingness to make changes. This is the first time I do not have confidence the pendulum will swing back our way. They have passed us big time in football, they are getting ahead in basketball because they have better coaching and talent overall than us, and baseball is probably about the same even though they are better this year. I legit have no idea what to think of Lebby and I gave him a complete pass year 1, although I would feel better if we had not gone blown out at home by Toledo. An SEC program should never lose to a MAC program unless it is some type of crazy good team like Marshall had in the late 90s with Randy Moss and Byron Leftwich. Toledo only won 7 or 8 games so they were not some exception to the rule. Also it is concerning we lost every single SEC game by double digits. If he does not win more than 4 games I will probably be ready for change, although barring something unethical, he will get year 3.

If there is one thing I have learned from watching SEC football for years- teams ALWAYS cycle out. Now, some cycle out quicker than others and some stay really good longer than others. But no one is immune to it. Ole Miss is no exception to that.

Also, I have seen every SEC program lose to a MAC caliber program at least once. No one is completely immune to that either.

[Cowbell]

You cannot blame it all on people for not blindly throwing money at an organization run by good ole boys.
If you really want to compare - then compare their decision making from the top, and what they have put on the field to generate the excitement.
Also, they do not run down their coach on the interwebs and give him nicknames when he is winning 9 games a year. They fall in line and keep quiet for the most part , especially if winning.
They don't opine for the Billy Brewer RTDF days either. They are progressive and will support any coach that is winning, and in any form or fashion it takes to win.
We on the other hand, have boosters and fans that want it done their way.

I won't give to NIL for a bunch of 18 year olds to have money, when our administration cannot even provide a well run game day experience, make smart hiring decisions, and handle the influence of boosters that caused some of the bad decisions.

Just saying before you keep hounding NIL, there is cleanup to do on our leadership.daily fans and web sites also.

This is where I'm at. Things will not change until we get fresh leadership at the head honcho position. We need to offer a better experience. My boys are old enough to make the trek back home for games but the experience is blah compared to what it could be.

[R2Dawg]

This is where I'm at. Things will not change until we get fresh leadership at the head honcho position. We need to offer a better experience. My boys are old enough to make the trek back home for games but the experience is blah compared to what it could be.

They gotta get the juice back in the Junction. The students don't give a rats tail about it now. They killed the Junction after allowing thugs to destroy it one night. This happened under Selmon; he needs to fix it.

[R2Dawg]

If there is one thing I have learned from watching SEC football for years- teams ALWAYS cycle out. Now, some cycle out quicker than others and some stay really good longer than others. But no one is immune to it. Ole Miss is no exception to that.

Also, I have seen every SEC program lose to a MAC caliber program at least once. No one is completely immune to that either.

Yep - everyone even Bama, UT, UF, UGA, LSU - all. I get the OM panic as they have been good at everything lately but it will not last. MSU success 2014-2021 is what made OM mad and desire to win again.

We will rise again.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Agree with some of this. But Leach was a big dividing force at MSU. Leach had went to OM, it would have divided their fanbase too.

The entitlement mentality is what hits a nerve with many MSU folks. OM folks are entitled so they have no issue with selling their soul and giving to entitled athletes. Like it or not this is a big difference in MSU blue collar folks vs Dr/Lawyer rich parents who send their rich kids to OM. I know many MSU fans don't like it but MSU has always been the people's University.

It would not have divided their fan base one bit. They would have all been on board rowing in the same direction. And even if they were not they would keep that to themselves. We have too many small sects of the fanbase that think their voice and message is more important than what the university is trying to promote. And by and large those people are the ones who never come to games, donate zero dollars to NIL or the Bulldog Club, but have some unknown sense of entitlement. Like I said, Ole Miss just gets it. They understand the value of having one consistent message and they are in lockstep on how to spread that message. We try to spread the message and then it is hijacked by the Air Raid Cult, RTGDF club, baseball only fans, Womens basketball cult, etc.

[Santiago]

It would not have divided their fan base one bit. They would have all been on board rowing in the same direction. And even if they were not they would keep that to themselves. We have too many small sects of the fanbase that think their voice and message is more important than what the university is trying to promote. And by and large those people are the ones who never come to games, donate zero dollars to NIL or the Bulldog Club, but have some unknown sense of entitlement. Like I said, Ole Miss just gets it. They understand the value of having one consistent message and they are in lockstep on how to spread that message. We try to spread the message and then it is hijacked by the Air Raid Cult, RTGDF club, baseball only fans, Womens basketball cult, etc.

This exactly is my point. If they had Leach and winning 9 games, their MSU media would not be griping about Leach late to meetings, and their boosters would not be griping he is not winning pretty or handing the ball off like 20 years ago. Heck no, they would embrace it and be spinning it in the media how it is a good thing, and beautiful to win and win that way. They would be on their way to filming a 30 for 30 on Leach in the SEC, and on and on.

That is how you get more average fans into NIL....all rowing and embracing the success.

But when you say it was hijacked by the Air Raid Cult.....that right there you are proving something maybe you did not intend --- anyone supporting Leach in the same loyal way Ole Miss would, gets branded here with a nickname. The people that started that terminology is all coming from the same source of people, and not from different fragments.
All the terms given back then when Leach was coaching came from the same segment of the fanbase. The media used the terms also, because some of them were out of the same segment.

That is the difference for sure with ole miss having Leach and how our fan base behaved having Leach.

[StarkVegasSteve]

This exactly is my point. If they had Leach and winning 9 games, their MSU media would not be griping about Leach late to meetings, and their boosters would not be griping he is not winning pretty or handing the ball off like 20 years ago. Heck no, they would embrace it and be spinning it in the media how it is a good thing, and beautiful to win and win that way. They would be on their way to filming a 30 for 30 on Leach in the SEC, and on and on.

That is how you get more average fans into NIL....all rowing and embracing the success.

But when you say it was hijacked by the Air Raid Cult.....that right there you are proving something maybe you did not intend --- anyone supporting Leach in the same loyal way Ole Miss would, gets branded here with a nickname. The people that started that terminology is all coming from the same source of people, and not from different fragments.

But they then kept it up after Leach had passed. Instead of getting on board with the new coach, all we heard was, “Arnett hates Leach and threw all the Leach guys away”. And look, I have gone on record to say that KB and BlackSailsDawg(I think that is who it was) were right about everything. But to act like Spurrier Jr or Hollingshead, the two in house candidates, would have been any better is equally as bad. They both sucked at their next stops. The Air Raid that we ran died with Leach. It was not coming back. It never made sense to keep bringing it up.

A prime comparison example, there were A BUNCH of high level OM boosters who loved Matt Luke. I mean Matt was an OM alum, player, starter, etc and they wanted him to work and were not happy with Carter giving him a public and private vote of confidence only to fire him 48 hours after the 19 Egg Bowl. But they kept that to themselves and got on board with Kiffin.

Now am I saying that the Arnett era turns out better and is still going if we have a consistent message and universal support, No. The guy was a god awful HC and was in miles over his head. But we could have all seen that. So instead of the fan base coming together and saying this crap is not working, it became a pissing match of the I told you so Air Raid guys and the RTGDF club. You just do not see that happen at serious programs.

[Santiago]

But they then kept it up after Leach had passed. Instead of getting on board with the new coach, all we heard was, ?Arnett hates Leach and threw all the Leach guys away?. And look, I have gone on record to say that KB and BlackSailsDawg(I think that is who it was) were right about everything. But to act like Spurrier Jr or Hollingshead, the two in house candidates, would have been any better is equally as bad. They both sucked at their next stops. The Air Raid that we ran died with Leach. It was not coming back. It never made sense to keep bringing it up.

A prime comparison example, there were A BUNCH of high level OM boosters who loved Matt Luke. I mean Matt was an OM alum, player, starter, etc and they wanted him to work and were not happy with Carter giving him a public and private vote of confidence only to fire him 48 hours after the 19 Egg Bowl. But they kept that to themselves and got on board with Kiffin.

Now am I saying that the Arnett era turns out better and is still going if we have a consistent message and universal support, No. The guy was a god awful HC and was in miles over his head. But we could have all seen that. So instead of the fan base coming together and saying this crap is not working, it became a pissing match of the I told you so Air Raid guys and the RTGDF club. You just do not see that happen at serious programs.

The "air raid cult" phrase , though, was started while Leach was here. My point is the branding of a group of fans while Leach was here AND winning. But to brand a segment of fans for being enthusiastically loyal to the coach currently coaching us.
To me I think you are skipping that altogether as one of the prime examples of our fan base v. ole miss if they had Leach.

[Coach34]

OUTSTANDING POST! Ole Miss led the SEC in passing offense this past season. They like flash and know that it sells.

This is where the disconnect is.

Mississippi led the conference in passing yards per game BECAUSE they were so good in the run game. They were 5th in the SEC in rushing- and ran the ball more than they threw the ball. Because they ran it so well- it helped them lead the SEC in yards per pass- they were the only team that was in double-digits at 10.5 per pass. The run game created chunk pass plays. Mississippi was 4th in passes attempted yet led the SEC in passing. Also- being good in the run game also helped them lead the SEC in completion percentage.

State fans dont want 1990's offensive football. We want a physical offense with innovation. That is Tenn. That is Mississippi. Dropping back and throwing 50 times per game with the RB's catching 150 passes during the season is not fun to watch. It's not exciting. Running an RPO off the counter as you read the safety to decide if you hand off or throw the backside skinny post/square in is exciting

[gtowndawg]

It would not have divided their fan base one bit. They would have all been on board rowing in the same direction. And even if they were not they would keep that to themselves. We have too many small sects of the fanbase that think their voice and message is more important than what the university is trying to promote. And by and large those people are the ones who never come to games, donate zero dollars to NIL or the Bulldog Club, but have some unknown sense of entitlement. Like I said, Ole Miss just gets it. They understand the value of having one consistent message and they are in lockstep on how to spread that message. We try to spread the message and then it is hijacked by the Air Raid Cult, RTGDF club, baseball only fans, Womens basketball cult, etc.

My goodness yes. I know multiple "Bulldawg" fans that love to complain but haven't been to a game of any kind in 10 years and don't give one cent to program. Are we the only ones with fans like that?

[StarkVegasSteve]

My goodness yes. I know multiple "Bulldawg" fans that love to complain but haven't been to a game of any kind in 10 years and don't give one cent to program. Are we the only ones with fans like that?

We are not. The problem is that somehow those people have become “voices” of our fanbase on social media. It is the same reason I hate Faulk thinking he is speaking for the fanbase. 75% of the time he is not.

[Santiago]

This is where the disconnect is.

Mississippi led the conference in passing yards per game BECAUSE they were so good in the run game. They were 5th in the SEC in rushing- and ran the ball more than they threw the ball. Because they ran it so well- it helped them lead the SEC in yards per pass- they were the only team that was in double-digits at 10.5 per pass. The run game created chunk pass plays. Mississippi was 4th in passes attempted yet led the SEC in passing. Also- being good in the run game also helped them lead the SEC in completion percentage.

State fans dont want 1990's offensive football. We want a physical offense with innovation. That is Tenn. That is Mississippi. Dropping back and throwing 50 times per game with the RB's catching 150 passes during the season is not fun to watch. It's not exciting. Running an RPO off the counter as you read the safety to decide if you hand off or throw the backside skinny post/square in is exciting

I would take that 50 passes game and its 9 win seasons right now!
We griped at a 9 win season because somehow that is not MSU football ***

[Santiago]

We are not. The problem is that somehow those people have become “voices” of our fanbase on social media. It is the same reason I hate Faulk thinking he is speaking for the fanbase. 75% of the time he is not.

Preach it! Faulk has what, 100 guys that keep up with his posts, and he acts like he is a national treasure.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Preach it! Faulk has what, 100 guys that keep up with his posts, and he acts like he is a national treasure.

I do not mind Robbie honestly. He just thinks he speaks for the fanbase sometimes and thinks everyone agrees lockstep with his opinions. And at the end of the day, he is a fan. Just like us. He is quite irrational and emotional in his thinking a lot of times. That is why he is so sideways with Lemonis because he acts like a fan instead of a journalist.

[Coach34]

I would take that 50 passes game and its 9 win seasons right now!
We griped at a 9 win season because somehow that is not MSU football ***

I wouldnt. Never want to watch that shit again.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I wouldnt. Never want to watch that shit again.

So you'd rather lose your way than win a way that works? Hmm....sounds like someone else. I think you referred to him as Croomhead if I'm not mistaken.

[Santiago]

I do not mind Robbie honestly. He just thinks he speaks for the fanbase sometimes and thinks everyone agrees lockstep with his opinions. And at the end of the day, he is a fan. Just like us. He is quite irrational and emotional in his thinking a lot of times. That is why he is so sideways with Lemonis because he acts like a fan instead of a journalist.

He is just hard on his posts on his site. Comes across like posters annoy him. He seems to get into the weeds on threads and start disagreeing instead of just let it flow.

[Coach34]

So you'd rather lose your way than win a way that works? Hmm....sounds like someone else. I think you referred to him as Croomhead if I'm not mistaken.

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

I don't disagree that running glorified HB toss with our swing passes got a little monotonous, BUT we were winning. I also think Rogers arm limitations limited us as a downfield passing offense because they threw it all over the place when he had gunslingers at that position. Heck even though it was short lived, Costello slung it all over the place. We weren't running many swing passes.

[Todd4State]

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

Throwing a check down to the running back is more exciting to watch than Dan running the QB up the middle every play and then our QB being constantly hurt all the time because he's getting teed off on. The funny thing about that is the RTDF crowd calling a check down to a RB a boring play when that is actually essentially Leach's version of a running play.

Keeping it on topic- I supported both coaches.

[Todd4State]

I don't disagree that running glorified HB toss with our swing passes got a little monotonous, BUT we were winning. I also think Rogers arm limitations limited us as a downfield passing offense because they threw it all over the place when he had gunslingers at that position. Heck even though it was short lived, Costello slung it all over the place. We weren't running many swing passes.

Will 110% affected the offense. Leach wanted him to throw it downfield more. I don't think he could read a defense all that well and when he was unsure he defaulted to checking it down. How many times did we have WR's running wide ass open with no one around them and Will just flat out missed it? It was a weekly thing with photos from MSU fans with guys with no one around them. Now the times was really on- we really cooked. Losing Polk and not being able to replace him hurt in 2022 and that goes back to Cohen and NIL.

Sort of on topic/off topic- Rosebowl wrote an article about a football analytics program that MSU developed that is intriguing to me. If we fully embrace analytics and apply it to play calling we're going to see pass/run splits similar to the NFL where analytics is already embraced. Announcers like to say that Kiffin uses analytics but I don't believe it. I think he uses analytics as a crutch for impulsive play calling. Best example I have is the 2 point conversion that Charlton knocked down to seal the win in 2022. That play had only a 2% chance of working. But similarly coaches in the NFL use analytics and it makes them more comfortable to be more aggressive because then they can justify a play call to fans in the media.

Analytics likes play action and deep passing usually and that's what we see a lot of in Lebby's scheme already.

[Cooterpoot]

Throwing a check down to the running back is more exciting to watch than Dan running the QB up the middle every play and then our QB being constantly hurt all the time because he's getting teed off on. The funny thing about that is the RTDF crowd calling a check down to a RB a boring play when that is actually essentially Leach's version of a running play.

Keeping it on topic- I supported both coaches.

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left. Leach was awful at recruiting because he didn't actually do it either. He had his little minion who screwed us over.
Basically, Leach was real good 20 years ago but was headed to retirement fast and he not kicked the bucket. He had one more season here to win a few games and it was over.

[Brobi-wan]

Yea 2015 and 2016 Dan not being locked in hurt us. It probably cost us the 15 Egg Bowl(which in turn cost us the Sugar Bowl), 16 South Al, 16 BYU, and 16 Arkansas. He got locked back in for 2017 and we saw what happened. He then zoned out after Don't Stop Believing against Bama in 17 and we were never the same. That night, up until that song ended, was the highest this program has been since and we're still searching for that moment.

I was there that night. On the drive up I told everyone we were going to beat bama. Had the refs not screwed us on that receiver jumping out of play and jumping back in, we might have.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I was there that night. On the drive up I told everyone we were going to beat bama. Had the refs not screwed us on that receiver jumping out of play and jumping back in, we might have.

That and had Dan tried to run another play before the end of the quarter. We had Bama gassed and were stuffing it down their throat. We then let them catch a break and killed our momentum at the same time.

[BrunswickDawg]

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left.

When have we not been a developmental program? Especially at QB. Outside of Will and Wayne Madkin, I can't think of an MSU QB who could actually throw a football who started as a true Freshman and had any kind of real, sustained success doing it.
Mullen sure as hell didn't want to be starting Freshman and Sophomore QB's. Remember - the only reason Dak got to play was that Russell got hurt. The only reason Fitz got to play was that the older Williams was THAT bad.
And what about the Leach 2021-22 Leach teams weren't SEC physical? Both went 4-4, which has only been bettered once this century. So, what you are outing again is that it does have to do with the RTDFB crowd.

And, Leach should have been loyal to Will. The kid took an absolute beating for him and won. In Will's 3 seasons under Leach, he had 19 wins - that's only 3 less than Dak had in his 3 years as a starter. And no one beat him out.
Will had flaws. But, I'll never understand the level of hate so many of our fans have for him.

[Cooterpoot]

When have we not been a developmental program? Especially at QB. Outside of Will and Wayne Madkin, I can't think of an MSU QB who could actually throw a football who started as a true Freshman and had any kind of real, sustained success doing it.
Mullen sure as hell didn't want to be starting Freshman and Sophomore QB's. Remember - the only reason Dak got to play was that Russell got hurt. The only reason Fitz got to play was that the older Williams was THAT bad.
And what about the Leach 2021-22 Leach teams weren't SEC physical? Both went 4-4, which has only been bettered once this century. So, what you are outing again is that it does have to do with the RTDFB crowd.

And, Leach should have been loyal to Will. The kid took an absolute beating for him and won. In Will's 3 seasons under Leach, he had 19 wins - that's only 3 less than Dak had in his 3 years as a starter. And no one beat him out.
Will had flaws. But, I'll never understand the level of hate so many of our fans have for him.

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

[BrunswickDawg]

I said Leach took too long to develop QBs, I didn't say he didn't develop them. Although, look at his pro history, and it's mighty thin for a long career. Rogers wasn't good, and being loyal to a low end talent wasn't going to go well. He held back the offense. Leach was doing nothing to make the program better and was already talking retirement. He would've won some games the Arnett season but that's it and we'd still have been lacking talent.

Gotcha. But, that also pre-supposes that Robertson and Locke still go in the portal if Leach didn't die (they didn't enter the portal until January). And it's not like either transferred out and became immediate starters either. The flip side of that again, is that MSU has never been a school that quickly developed QB's. It's been an albatross around our neck for as long as I remember. Leach's pro history is better than MSU's pro history outside of Dak. And, Leach's tendency to only start older QBs was well known when he was hired.


This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

This is a great point. I do think that if Mike hadn't died we might have seen some sort of change to staff to do just that. He was sick a good bit of the year. However, that would have also meant that our AD would have stepped in (Mike might not have done it on his own) and I'm not confident that we had strong enough leadership to push it.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Gotcha. But, that also pre-supposes that Robertson and Locke still go in the portal if Leach didn't die (they didn't enter the portal until January). And it's not like either transferred out and became immediate starters either. The flip side of that again, is that MSU has never been a school that quickly developed QB's. It's been an albatross around our neck for as long as I remember. Leach's pro history is better than MSU's pro history outside of Dak. And, Leach's tendency to only start older QBs was well known when he was hired.



This is a great point. I do think that if Mike hadn't died we might have seen some sort of change to staff to do just that. He was sick a good bit of the year. However, that would have also meant that our AD would have stepped in (Mike might not have done it on his own) and I'm not confident that we had strong enough leadership to push it.

Well at that point we didn't have an AD and I don't know if Selmon would've wanted his first act as AD to be trying to force a hall of fame HC to retire.

[CaptainObvious]

Who is this Selmon guy y'all keep referring to? I never see any interviews. Never see him out among the fans except sitting on the front row of basketball games. Does he attend baseball games? Is he walking the stands speaking to fans at any event. Dose he do a podcast that I might watch? Does he go on radio talk shows? Does he hang out at Stagger In visiting with the crowd and drinking a beer? Who IS this guy?

[BrunswickDawg]

Well at that point we didn't have an AD and I don't know if Selmon would've wanted his first act as AD to be trying to force a hall of fame HC to retire.

Not retire - add an obvious "successor" like a Tyson Helton as Assistant HC/OC to begin to plan for retirement.

[Todd4State]

Nah it's not, and it's got nothing to do with running the football crowd. It's about having a team that can physically play in the SEC and maximizing talent with a scheme. Leach took too long to develop QBs. You can look at his history and see he never played young guys and so he was stuck with Rogers. This past year would've been year 5 with Rogers had Leach been here. Leach wouldn't go portal a better player and Robertson didn't develop until he left. Leach was awful at recruiting because he didn't actually do it either. He had his little minion who screwed us over.
Basically, Leach was real good 20 years ago but was headed to retirement fast and he not kicked the bucket. He had one more season here to win a few games and it was over.

His best QB ever was from the portal at Washington State. I highly doubt he would have been against that.

A lot of Leach's issue with the portal was Cohen era NIL. He was immediately all for NIL and the portal when Charlie took over.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Who is this Selmon guy y'all keep referring to? I never see any interviews. Never see him out among the fans except sitting on the front row of basketball games. Does he attend baseball games? Is he walking the stands speaking to fans at any event. Dose he do a podcast that I might watch? Does he go on radio talk shows? Does he hang out at Stagger In visiting with the crowd and drinking a beer? Who IS this guy?

He's done multiple podcasts and interviews in the last few months, he actually sits in the crowd during basketball games instead of courtside like Cohen, he sits in the same place at every baseball game(AD Box just like Cohen), and no one really goes to Stagger In anymore since they moved and killed their business.

[Todd4State]

This is kind of where I'm at. I think we win 7 games in 23 with Leach but then what? He probably had 1-2 seasons left MAX after 22 so we're just kicking the can down the road to be in the same position we were in 23 and we're probably in that position now. That was the thing with Mike, there was never any type of succession plan. Now had we brought in someone like a Zach Kittley, GJ Kinne, Tyson Helton, etc. to be the OC in 23 and kind of set it up that they would take over then I'd probably be singing a different tune but I never got the feeling that was remotely thought of. Because you had to go Air Raid to not have the drop off we had and you had to go a very pure Air Raid style and those guys are probably the closest you could get.

It would have been a lot easier to transition with our current NIL situation compared to our 2022 NIL situation. Charlie was just taking that over when Leach had passed away.

Thing is we probably could have gotten Helton or Kittley if we didn't "panic" and have to "save the recruiting class" in 2022.

And hell- if we had gotten Helton we probably would have had Will Friend, Bumphis, and etc on staff. Probably the route we should have gone honestly. He would have kept the offense similar and may have even kept Hollinghead.

[Santiago]

It would have been a lot easier to transition with our current NIL situation compared to our 2022 NIL situation. Charlie was just taking that over when Leach had passed away.

Thing is we probably could have gotten Helton or Kittley if we didn't "panic" and have to "save the recruiting class" in 2022.

And hell- if we had gotten Helton we probably would have had Will Friend, Bumphis, and etc on staff. Probably the route we should have gone honestly. He would have kept the offense similar and may have even kept Hollinghead.

This right here.... and maybe we are answering where things went off the tracks.
Reading your posts, and vegas, and others, it is a really good thread going on.
It seems to start to jump out that we went off the tracks noticeably twice....
1. Moorhead inherited a heck of a team and took us the opposite direction and too soft.
2. Leach came in and even with the Covid year , had us proud of our toughness again. That Georgia game was just one I will never forget, and the mindset the team took into that game. That had some swagger.
Leach passes away, and we are back to our decision makers to make a hire. We could have kept it moving forward with Helton, Kittley, etc and kept some good coaches without a big dropoff.

The off the tracks moments seem to happen when certain people and alumni groups were pushing for hires. This includes those boosters that pushed for Cohen to get hired.
To me, reading everything points right back to those that pushed for these hires.... Cohen, Moorhead, Arnett(intentionally go 180 from what was being built).
I don't think those boosters, and admin are really good at this based on results.

[StarkVegasSteve]

This right here.... and maybe we are answering where things went off the tracks.
Reading your posts, and vegas, and others, it is a really good thread going on.
It seems to start to jump out that we went off the tracks noticeably twice....
1. Moorhead inherited a heck of a team and took us the opposite direction and too soft.
2. Leach came in and even with the Covid year , had us proud of our toughness again. That Georgia game was just one I will never forget, and the mindset the team took into that game. That had some swagger.
Leach passes away, and we are back to our decision makers to make a hire. We could have kept it moving forward with Helton, Kittley, etc and kept some good coaches without a big dropoff.

The off the tracks moments seem to happen when certain people and alumni groups were pushing for hires. This includes those boosters that pushed for Cohen to get hired.
To me, reading everything points right back to those that pushed for these hires.... Cohen, Moorhead, Arnett(intentionally go 180 from what was being built).
I don't think those boosters, and admin are really good at this based on results.

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.

[Coach34]

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.

It's rare for us to get our 1st target when hiring altho I think we did with Jan. I didnt hear about us getting serious talks with anybody else during that time

[TrapGame]

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.

And there's a tape of a OSU coaches meeting that was a part of something ESPN was doing at the time where Day asks Urban about the MSU job and Urban tells him it's a shitty job, don't take it.

[coachnorm]

I dont coach that way. I put the ball in the hands of my best players to make plays- and stretch the field as far and wide as I can to help them be successful

As a fan and for entertainment? I just dont enjoy watching that shit. I didnt watch a complete game Leach's last season. It's just a terrible watch. And it's not the passing so much as the boring aspect of checkdown to the RB and a cloud of dust. I loved watching LSU's passing offense with Burreaux the year they won the title. It was innovative and exciting. Even that season- they didnt throw it 50 times per game. The best offense in modern college football was still 38 passes to 34 runs per game. Running WR's all over the place and then checking it down to the RB is just boring as shit football- like the FB dive.

Nearly all pass offenses are similar. If you take Alabama or Ohio State play books, the schemes are similar. The terminology will be different. I am going to bring to light two pass plays (1) The Basic Outside Play and (2) Mesh Rail.

The Basic Outside Play is called “Outside” by some programs, and “Basic” by most high schools thru NFL. “Basic” was the build off play for the inception of the spread offense decades ago and is still now. Basic defined is the wide receiver running a vertical and the slot running an out pattern under the vertical. Elite high schools thru NFL sometimes run a higher out about 10 yards under the vertical called OHIO which means O outside HI high aconitum.

Mesh Rail is what it implies under mesh routes with a vertical up the hash mark area called the “Rail”. I personal would see, while sitting in the Scoreboard Section, MSU receivers properly leveraged in match-up situations because the defense would drop an additional defender in the short passing lanes to stop the Air Raid Concept. MSU throws against perceived separation and not match-up leverage so we get check downs? LSU and Ohio Stated do not have that issue. They do repetitions to win match-ups and they launch instead of check down DURING THE GAME?

Back to “Basic” and remember many offenses have this in their schematic play book. What the playbook does not have is the proper releases against defensive alignments. How many pages would it take to incorporate multiple releases required?
If you have a weak armed quarterback that does not master tight window passing, you have a weakness in the offense. If you have a weak-minded quarterback that can’t read or gets flustered at moments, the receivers have to step up and rise to the moment. So back to the two plays in this exposure, are the receivers scheme participants or are they players? Are the receivers spending practice time on scheme participation or playmaking? How much tight window work is being practiced?

I have coached receivers and defensive backs at the junior college level and have attended many passing clinics including many Air Raid presentations. While as a secondary coach, it was easy to coach against the scheme because the scheme is well known by those who need to know it. Focusing on scheme and dealing with receivers who know how to leverage and dominate a defender, while executing the architecture of the play is a totally different nightmare. How many receivers has Mississippi State sent into the NFL in the past 25 years?

I am closing with two high lights from maybe the best PUBLIC high school football program in America. There are a few PRIVATE programs better. They all got the message about tight windows and leverage unlike Mississippi State over the past 25 years. Enjoy your SMOOT high lights from back in the day?

file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/WR%20Cameron%20Smith%20thight%20window%20catch.mp4

file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/North%20Shore%20the%20Class%206A%20Division%201%20 state%20championship.mp4

I tried to attach North Shore High School football video from X/Twitter and it did not get on to the post. Go to X/Twitter North Shore Football for video to support this statement.

https://youtu.be/lUWKlKYjfew?si=MRg6mmOavMv28igD

Watch the ending of the Youtube video.

[PGHBulldogBG]

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.

Anyone who thought Moorhead was going to be a good hire should legit be banned from any kind of sports broadcasting or writing. I have no idea where people ever got the idea this was a good hire. I live in PA and he was a joke amongst Penn State fans. He had a loaded offense that was given to him and he still could not get into the playoff. He has always underachieved given the talent around him. I was actually more upset when we hired Moorhead than Arnett. It was a legit lazy hire by Cohen without doing any real homework. Arnett did fool me a little bit that he might be an okay head coach, but I was not buying any of Moorhead's BS. Then he asked the players their ring size? Cringe!

[The Federalist Engineer]

The Moorhead hire, although looked at unfavorably now, was universally lauded as one of the best hires of the cycle at the time. However, Cohen did no due diligence with that hire. I mean we had MULTIPLE P5 HCs interested in our job and we didn't even interview them. The funny thing with the Moorhead hire is that everyone thinks we got our first choice. We didn't. We literally called Ryan Day, still OC at Ohio St at the time, and offered him the job without an interview like an hour after Dan left.

This interesting because the MSU job worked well for his Florida OC, Dan Mullen. Then MSU and Mullen helped end Urbans Florida career, 10-7 game. DM even made it to #1 in 2014 Urban could not win at Florida without DM and Tebow.

[Dawgology]

People don’t want to invest in this because it’s clear that those in charge, whether that is coaches, staffer, administration or boosters, don’t appear to know what they are doing. Why would I donate $10-20k a year for bad recruiting, poor talent evaluation, and continued bad coaching hires. I will invest but I want to see some cohesive, progressive direction from the entire athletic program and good choices happening. No one has seen anything like that in years.

[Todd4State]

Nearly all pass offenses are similar. If you take Alabama or Ohio State play books, the schemes are similar. The terminology will be different. I am going to bring to light two pass plays (1) The Basic Outside Play and (2) Mesh Rail.

The Basic Outside Play is called “Outside” by some programs, and “Basic” by most high schools thru NFL. “Basic” was the build off play for the inception of the spread offense decades ago and is still now. Basic defined is the wide receiver running a vertical and the slot running an out pattern under the vertical. Elite high schools thru NFL sometimes run a higher out about 10 yards under the vertical called OHIO which means O outside HI high aconitum.

Mesh Rail is what it implies under mesh routes with a vertical up the hash mark area called the “Rail”. I personal would see, while sitting in the Scoreboard Section, MSU receivers properly leveraged in match-up situations because the defense would drop an additional defender in the short passing lanes to stop the Air Raid Concept. MSU throws against perceived separation and not match-up leverage so we get check downs? LSU and Ohio Stated do not have that issue. They do repetitions to win match-ups and they launch instead of check down DURING THE GAME?

Back to “Basic” and remember many offenses have this in their schematic play book. What the playbook does not have is the proper releases against defensive alignments. How many pages would it take to incorporate multiple releases required?
If you have a weak armed quarterback that does not master tight window passing, you have a weakness in the offense. If you have a weak-minded quarterback that can’t read or gets flustered at moments, the receivers have to step up and rise to the moment. So back to the two plays in this exposure, are the receivers scheme participants or are they players? Are the receivers spending practice time on scheme participation or playmaking? How much tight window work is being practiced?

I have coached receivers and defensive backs at the junior college level and have attended many passing clinics including many Air Raid presentations. While as a secondary coach, it was easy to coach against the scheme because the scheme is well known by those who need to know it. Focusing on scheme and dealing with receivers who know how to leverage and dominate a defender, while executing the architecture of the play is a totally different nightmare. How many receivers has Mississippi State sent into the NFL in the past 25 years?

I am closing with two high lights from maybe the best PUBLIC high school football program in America. There are a few PRIVATE programs better. They all got the message about tight windows and leverage unlike Mississippi State over the past 25 years. Enjoy your SMOOT high lights from back in the day?

file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/WR%20Cameron%20Smith%20thight%20window%20catch.mp4

file:///C:/Users/Norm/Downloads/Video/North%20Shore%20the%20Class%206A%20Division%201%20 state%20championship.mp4

I tried to attach North Shore High School football video from X/Twitter and it did not get on to the post. Go to X/Twitter North Shore Football for video to support this statement.

https://youtu.be/lUWKlKYjfew?si=MRg6mmOavMv28igD

Watch the ending of the Youtube video.

What it essentially comes down to and goes back to is recruiting. If you want win match ups you have to have players. And the only way to get players is to do the one thing that MSU does not like to do and that is recruit football players.

[Todd4State]

This interesting because the MSU job worked well for his Florida OC, Dan Mullen. Then MSU and Mullen helped end Urbans Florida career, 10-7 game. DM even made it to #1 in 2014 Urban could not win at Florida without DM and Tebow.

1. Urban Meyer is a POS.

2. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Dan Mullen ran down our program when he talked about us to other coaches.

[Todd4State]

People don’t want to invest in this because it’s clear that those in charge, whether that is coaches, staffer, administration or boosters, don’t appear to know what they are doing. Why would I donate $10-20k a year for bad recruiting, poor talent evaluation, and continued bad coaching hires. I will invest but I want to see some cohesive, progressive direction from the entire athletic program and good choices happening. No one has seen anything like that in years.

I agree with that. The disconnect between the fans and the AD are big. Installing LED lights is a step in the right direction. Bringing back to interlocking MSU for one game even was a small step in the right direction as well- with the next step being to use it more and more until it becomes the primary uniform again.

For me personally, the most discouraging thing is I see MSU constantly making the same mistakes over and over, there never seems to be much emphasis on recruiting and bringing in blue chip talent- "Oh give up immediately on that guy from Meridian- Bama wants him." and boosters that have the football IQ that is incredibly low to the point where they make mind numbing decisions to the point where you question whether they really want to win or if they just want access to the program. There's a lot of screw what the fans want and what is really best for the program- we want what WE want.

And if you treat fans like that- eventually they are going to stop supporting the team. Because that is the only resort to change things.

The whole Mike Leach situation and how obviously botched it was- followed up with the typical MSU response of "It wasn't really our fault or anyone's fault because this is an unprecedented situation"- it's obviously BS and the fans are simply tired of being sold it. It would be nice if the boosters actually stopped hiding behind Keenum and actually took some ****ing responsibility for their actions for once. It will never happen until the next version of Rosebowl comes out with a book about it about 60 years from now.

I'm very tempted to just say- Hey don't give us your money if you want to run our football program like Louisville High School. But I know we need their money so...

[Santiago]

People don?t want to invest in this because it?s clear that those in charge, whether that is coaches, staffer, administration or boosters, don?t appear to know what they are doing. Why would I donate $10-20k a year for bad recruiting, poor talent evaluation, and continued bad coaching hires. I will invest but I want to see some cohesive, progressive direction from the entire athletic program and good choices happening. No one has seen anything like that in years.

It definitely is why I don't want to give right now. On top of knowing the money of NIL goes straight to 18-20 year olds and it is no investment, we also see bad decision making by our administration and those boosters that had the president's ear for Cohen , and then the group(if the same) for Arnett.
Greg Byrne got our program turned in a good direction, but it seems we have yielded back to "one of us" hires and influences within the administration.

[StarkVegasSteve]

It definitely is why I don't want to give right now. On top of knowing the money of NIL goes straight to 18-20 year olds and it is no investment, we also see bad decision making by our administration and those boosters that had the president's ear for Cohen , and then the group(if the same) for Arnett.
Greg Byrne got our program turned in a good direction, but it seems we have yielded back to "one of us" hires and influences within the administration.

Well the inverse is do not give and I can guarantee we will suck if that happens. I have faith in Zac to get things turned around. I have tried to tell y’all how bad the administration was when Selmon took over. He literally almost quit his first week because we had people making 6 figures that did not know what they were supposed to be doing. 2025 is the first year we have had a competent athletic dept because we finally got rid of all the waste.

On the football front, I really like the changes Lebby made in the offseason. From the guys we brought in to the coaches we brought in. Again, I do not think people fully grasp how bad it was. Lebby is diplomatic about it because he does not want to speak ill of the previous staffs but he told people privately that we had a G5 AT BEST roster last year. His goal was to literally just try to outscore everyone. He was disappointed it took the offense so long to gel. He has told a lot people that had our offense been operating at the beginning of the season how it was at the end we probably win 4 or 5 games. I mean do you guys realize we literally could not have full practices because we did not have enough bodies to give us looks.

[Cooterpoot]

People don?t want to invest in this because it?s clear that those in charge, whether that is coaches, staffer, administration or boosters, don?t appear to know what they are doing. Why would I donate $10-20k a year for bad recruiting, poor talent evaluation, and continued bad coaching hires. I will invest but I want to see some cohesive, progressive direction from the entire athletic program and good choices happening. No one has seen anything like that in years.

Well, we just had a good HS recruiting class and portal class and Lebby is effectively on year one this coming season because of the poor shape of the program. We've invested in gameday and brought in help for a terrible DC for the sake of continuity.
But the BC screwed up the ticket ordering with a terrible timeframe. The BC could 17 up a wet dream. They're the worst group on this campus and they hold all the money now. They've held us back forever and will continue to do so. Ticket sales are abysmal this year because they took a terrible stance.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Well, we just had a good HS recruiting class and portal class and Lebby is effectively on year one this coming season because of the poor shape of the program. We've invested in gameday and brought in help for a terrible DC for the sake of continuity.
But the BC screwed up the ticket ordering with a terrible timeframe. The BC could 17 up a wet dream. They're the worst group on this campus and they hold all the money now.

Which is why Selmon has spent the better part of 24 months getting rid of most of that dept. You're not wrong though, they are without a doubt the worst group on campus. They had multiple people in that dept that had ZERO CLUE how to do the job they were being paid high 5 figures and low 6 figures to do. It was embarassing.

[Cooterpoot]

Which is why Selmon has spent the better part of 24 months getting rid of most of that dept. You're not wrong though, they are without a doubt the worst group on campus. They had multiple people in that dept that had ZERO CLUE how to do the job they were being paid high 5 figures and low 6 figures to do. It was embarassing.

And they still dropped the tickets on everyone right after the holidays with a very short frame of time to pay, after a big increase in cost as well. Say what you will, but that was another example of a terrible decision by them that is going to hurt football again. Selmon has to realize this isn't Oklahoma football. People aren't lined up to grab tickets and need a better payment option to afford it. I've shut down all giving over it and I'm not the only one.

[StarkVegasSteve]

And they still dropped the tickets on everyone right after the holidays with a very short frame of time to pay, after a big increase in cost as well. Say what you will, but that was another example of a terrible decision by them that is going to hurt football again. Selmon has to realize this isn't Oklahoma football. People aren't lined up to grab tickets and need a better payment option to afford it. I've shut down all giving over it and I'm not the only one.

What payment options would you suggest? I am simply just asking. Are you saying pay it in increments?

[Cooterpoot]

What payment options would you suggest? I am simply just asking. Are you saying pay it in increments?

Yes, like it used to be. I can't come up with that money right after the holidays. I had to give up seats I've had for several years because they required too much money upfront this time and had a shorter payment schedule. Maybe I need to find a woman with a tax refund. I also like BI better for my donations but that died with the point system. Now they tell me what to pay instead of me telling them what I'm paying.
They know they messed up, because they called after the deadline to offer an extension. Well, you poorly planned this and hung me out so I can't do it now.

[Santiago]

Well the inverse is do not give and I can guarantee we will suck if that happens. I have faith in Zac to get things turned around. I have tried to tell y?all how bad the administration was when Selmon took over. He literally almost quit his first week because we had people making 6 figures that did not know what they were supposed to be doing. 2025 is the first year we have had a competent athletic dept because we finally got rid of all the waste.

On the football front, I really like the changes Lebby made in the offseason. From the guys we brought in to the coaches we brought in. Again, I do not think people fully grasp how bad it was. Lebby is diplomatic about it because he does not want to speak ill of the previous staffs but he told people privately that we had a G5 AT BEST roster last year. His goal was to literally just try to outscore everyone. He was disappointed it took the offense so long to gel. He has told a lot people that had our offense been operating at the beginning of the season how it was at the end we probably win 4 or 5 games. I mean do you guys realize we literally could not have full practices because we did not have enough bodies to give us looks.

I agree, and at the same time am saying the turnoff on giving knowing there is a small band of boosters and an some in the administration calling shots and they are really bad at it.
I love the university, but it does not mean I blindly give to it when they have bad influences for decisions involved.

The whole Banner Mstate is another example. The ugliest crap I have ever seen, and yet it somehow made it for this long. I know some people out of state that want to send their kids to MSU, and probably will happen. They are not alumni.
So I asked them their take on all our numerous logos. They all say, anything but that Banner Mstate. They said they intentionally buy any other MSU gear without it.
They love the baseball logos, and the flying M(love the academic history to it), and to some degree the old interlocking.

[Dawgology]

Which is why Selmon has spent the better part of 24 months getting rid of most of that dept. You're not wrong though, they are without a doubt the worst group on campus. They had multiple people in that dept that had ZERO CLUE how to do the job they were being paid high 5 figures and low 6 figures to do. It was embarassing.

Yep. I’ve worked for the State of MS for almost 25 years and you see it at every level and in every department. How Ole Miss pulled themselves out of that mindset and quagmire should be studied and published. It has completely infected the Mississippi State Athletic Program. After last season, my small group of donors officially pulled our athletic program donations and moved them to education. (Which is also not great right now but don’t get me started). And that was before the BC ticket ordering fiasco. The whole things just a total crap show right now.

[Dawgology]

Well the inverse is do not give and I can guarantee we will suck if that happens. I have faith in Zac to get things turned around. I have tried to tell y’all how bad the administration was when Selmon took over. He literally almost quit his first week because we had people making 6 figures that did not know what they were supposed to be doing. 2025 is the first year we have had a competent athletic dept because we finally got rid of all the waste.

On the football front, I really like the changes Lebby made in the offseason. From the guys we brought in to the coaches we brought in. Again, I do not think people fully grasp how bad it was. Lebby is diplomatic about it because he does not want to speak ill of the previous staffs but he told people privately that we had a G5 AT BEST roster last year. His goal was to literally just try to outscore everyone. He was disappointed it took the offense so long to gel. He has told a lot people that had our offense been operating at the beginning of the season how it was at the end we probably win 4 or 5 games. I mean do you guys realize we literally could not have full practices because we did not have enough bodies to give us looks.

That’s well and good but you can’t expect people to drop $20k a year because “we promise we made changes and it’ll be different this time”. That kind of trust has to be rebuilt and the Cohen Crew absolute wrecked it. I mean, blew it up completely. It’s what happens when backwards thinking boosters are allowed to run things. They got what they wanted. And now we are where we are.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Yep. I’ve worked for the State of MS for almost 25 years and you see it at every level and in every department. How Ole Miss pulled themselves out of that mindset and quagmire should be studied and published. It has completely infected the Mississippi State Athletic Program. After last season, my small group of donors officially pulled our athletic program donations and moved them to education. (Which is also not great right now but don’t get me started). And that was before the BC ticket ordering fiasco. The whole things just a total crap show right now.

They have a forward thinking administration, fan base, and boosters. They get a message and all get behind that message. Whether academically, athletically, or socially.

We on the other hand tend to have a reactionary administration, fan base, and boosters. We're late to a lot of stuff and when we get there we have 3 different messages.

It starts at the top. Look I like Mark a lot. I think he likes Mississippi State and he wants what is best for it. I just think Mark is too political. He had political aspirations for a long time and I think it's hard to shake yourself of that. Boyce has only ever been in administration. From Tri County, MRA, Canton Academy, Holmes, and now Ole Miss. He knows how to play the administration game, but also knows that when decisions have to be made, you make them. They are paying you to make that decision. Not someone else. Mark on the other hand, was in politics until he took our job. He thinks you need to have consensus before making a decision and wants to please everyone. That's not possible at any level of educational administration and definitely not at the highest level.

Zac and Keith are a lot alike. They understand what it takes to win. Keith was handed wagyu by Bjork and told to make a steak. Zac was handed chicken shit by Cohen and told to make a steak. Cohen 17'd this athletic dept more than anyone will ever know.

Their fan base understands what it takes to win. Their $5-$500 dollar fans know that they're never going to have any influence over decision making. They give because they know that thousands others like them are giving and they know all those donations will add up and make a difference. Our $5-$500 fans want to have sit down dinners with Lebby, Jans, and Lemonis every other week so they can talk strategy. They want a whole lot for a little bit of giving. And if they can't have that they stop giving.

The last part is the boosters. For DECADES, their boosters have been aligned and have had one common goal, WIN. Our boosters on the other hand want to put their buddies on the staff so they can look cool at the country club with their "insider info". We have no common goal. Each person wants to be more important and thinks their voice has to be the loudest. There's no consistent message. Their boosters are also in line with who gives for what. They know who the football boosters are, the baseball boosters, and the basketball boosters and they don't deviate. We have one sport figured out like that, basketball. Zac is trying to get the other two settled.


All in All, they get it. And we don't. But Zac is trying to change that. Also, I've never been a big get rid of Keenum guy but after typing that out. I'm out on Keenum. And that sucks, because I like Mark but what is he doing to make us better? We're falling behind academically, we only recruit within a 3 hr circle of campus, and our athletic programs are either impressively average or downright bad. So what is he doing to combat that?

[Cooterpoot]

I agree on Keenum, he'd just assume slap dicks at the Grant Museum. His political connections do help some, but not enough to be a difference maker. The problem is who the college board would appoint if he left. Those 17ers will screw us over as fast as they can. Keenum killed Sark to State and should be fired for that alone. He hired Cohen as AD, that's another strike. He wouldn't let Cohen fire Moorhead until there was a fight and scandal. He needs to shut his mouth and take a seat in regards to athletics because he sucks at it!

[Cowbell]

I agree on Keenum, he'd just assume slap dicks at the Grant Museum. His political connections do help some, but not enough to be a difference maker. The problem is who the college board would appoint if he left. Those 17ers will screw us over as fast as they can. Keenum killed Sark to State and should be fired for that alone. He hired Cohen as AD, that's another strike. He wouldn't let Cohen fire Moorhead until there was a fight and scandal. He needs to shut his mouth and take a seat in regards to athletics because he sucks at it!

Yes, he gets way too involved in things that he has no wisdom in

[RezDog7]

The downfall started when the stadium was built on dead Indians.

[Bothrops]

Perhaps we are on our way up, but up ain't where it used to be.

[War Machine Dawg]

I'd say it was hiring Leach. It told me we aren't serious about having a competitive football program. We're happy to be the doormat and an SEC welfare recipient. There's a reason no other SEC team had seriously considered Leach for the 20 years before we hired him.

That said, the portal and NIL were the final nails in the coffin. We had a chance when we could be a development program with talented, blue collar players. But the portal allows players to leave with zero compensation or the ability to replace them. NIL means on the off chance we do have a good player, someone with deeper pockets is going to buy him from us. Look no further than MVB last year. Right when it seemed like we'd found a talent to develop around at QB, he's gone. Until there's some regulation of the portal and NIL, we can't hope to compete. College football is dead. I can't stand whatever this is now.

[Todd4State]

I'd say it was hiring Leach. It told me we aren't serious about having a competitive football program. We're happy to be the doormat and an SEC welfare recipient. There's a reason no other SEC team had seriously considered Leach for the 20 years before we hired him.

That said, the portal and NIL were the final nails in the coffin. We had a chance when we could be a development program with talented, blue collar players. But the portal allows players to leave with zero compensation or the ability to replace them. NIL means on the off chance we do have a good player, someone with deeper pockets is going to buy him from us. Look no further than MVB last year. Right when it seemed like we'd found a talent to develop around at QB, he's gone. Until there's some regulation of the portal and NIL, we can't hope to compete. College football is dead. I can't stand whatever this is now.

Yeah- nothing says we're "not serious" like hiring a guy two years removed from an 11 win season at a then P5 school and who should be in the college football HOF.**

I guarantee you that if we hired a guy with Leach's resume' and he had 50/50 run splits you would have been fired up.

Thanks for providing an example of the asinine shit that our fans come up with which is EXACTLY what we are talking about that is wrong with our fans.

[Pancho]

this ^^^^^^^^^^. Lets help Lebby get what he needs and move on. bitches will bitch no matter what

[AROB44]

The downfall actually began with the internet and message boards. Never did I imagine that we had as many experts and malcontents until message boards. Bitching and moaning about everything.....even when we win.

[BeardoMSU]

The downfall actually began with the internet and message boards. Never did I imagine that we had as many experts and malcontents until message boards. Bitching and moaning about everything.....even when we win.

I blame the development of agriculture and domestication! Our bitch ass ancestor 10,000 years ago set all this shit in motion!****