If I was Lemonis I would be VERY concerned

[Todd4State]

This is kind of a reality check to show everyone where we stand and why I think it's going to take something monumental to turn this around which with a team that constantly shoots itself in the foot isn't going to happen but I'm going to run the numbers anyway.

So, for most MSU fans we expect to host regionals. To do that, we're going to have win probably 18....maybe even 19 SEC games to have a shot. We have 24 SEC games left. As we all went to MSU and have degrees there we are all smart enough to know that means that we would at a minimum need to go 17-7 to have a shot at hosting. If and when we go to LSU and get embarrassed again and swept that drops to 17-4.

That ain't happening.

But don't worry Chris- you can go on the road to a regional and tell the media how pissed off the team is and win at Duke and get to a SR.

Not so fast my friend.

And THIS is where it gets really scary for Lemonis. We have a RPI problem. And yes, I know it's a little early to watch it...but it's still concerning when it's one of the worst in the SEC. Right now as I type this our RPI is 61.

But there are some issues as I am looking at our worksheet. We play teams that I think could downtrend in RPI including three games against Mizzou- hey at least we get the road multiplier! But what that means is our opportunities to raise our RPI with a realistic but optimistic scenario- say we go 13-11 the rest of way in SEC games for an example- are limited. What I am getting at is our RPI could be so bad that we could get to 14-16 in SEC play and have a pretty decent overall record and STILL miss the regionals completely.

And even worse the rest of our OOC schedule has some teams with some really bad RPI's with the Governor's Cup being the exception. That means that we're probably not going to be able to raise our resume' significantly but even scarier for Lemonis- if we drop a game to anyone that's not from Birmingham or Oxford our resume' could completely tank. Like a loss to Memphis might legit knock us out of the tournament. Because the thing is we only have two quality wins BUT we also don't have any bad losses- yet anyway.

Having pitcher auditions against Troy and Arizona are REALLY hurting us right now.

So- TLDR
Even if we somehow turn this around Lemonis is in a REALLY bad spot.

[EdwardDrayton]

You put the numbers to what we intuitively knew. It's a VERY uphill road for Lemo. It will be something akin to a miracle if he survives.

[maroonmania]

It's still ridiculous to me that we had 2 pitchers come into the Troy game and contribute greatly to that loss that have not seen the mound beyond that, before or since. Our coaches do some very dumb stuff. Why would you do that against a Top 25 opponent.rather than one of the multitude of Quad 4 games we've played?

[EdwardDrayton]

It's both players not performing and coaching mistakes. Unfortunately coaches ultimately are held accountable for their recruiting, i.e., how their players perform. There's nowhere for a coach to hide from any of it.

[HoopsDawg]

It's still ridiculous to me that we had 2 pitchers come into the Troy game and contribute greatly to that loss that have not seen the mound beyond that, before or since. Our coaches do some very dumb stuff. Why would you do that against a Top 25 opponent.rather than one of the multitude of Quad 4 games we've played?

Mind boggling. He's just not a good decision maker.

[Todd4State]

It's still ridiculous to me that we had 2 pitchers come into the Troy game and contribute greatly to that loss that have not seen the mound beyond that, before or since. Our coaches do some very dumb stuff. Why would you do that against a Top 25 opponent.rather than one of the multitude of Quad 4 games we've played?

It's insane. And yes I get that guys have to get work in and play. If that's the case then schedule a random SWAC team on a Wednesday and script it out.

[Todd4State]

It's both players not performing and coaching mistakes. Unfortunately coaches ultimately are held accountable for their recruiting, i.e., how their players perform. There's nowhere for a coach to hide from any of it.

Most of the mistakes we're making this year are things that are more on coaching than the players.

Making errors in the field and baserunning mistakes. Those are things that should be corrected with reps in practice. You don't have to be incredibly talented to be adequate on defense in baseball. A church league softball team could be adequate if they had enough reps.

The nuts and bolts of hitting and pitching look OK. But neither one can overcome the mistakes which is why often times we're losing by 1-2 runs. We're spotting teams 7 runs sometimes because of mistakes.

Also the coaches at times aren't putting the right players in at the right time. And of course that is 100% on the coaches.

[KB21]

Some are going to disagree with me on this, but where we have fallen behind some other SEC programs is with the analytical aspects of player development. We have a staff that doesn't buy into analytics. They use it some, but they aren't all in. Whereas at Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama, they are 100% on board with analytics. They are maximizing fastball velocity, spin, and vertical movement with their pitchers. They are maximizing launch angle and exit velocities with their hitters. Tennessee gets a transfer in from Louisville who hit 9 HRs all of last season, and he's hit 9 HRs through the first 5 weeks of the season at Tennessee. Alabama takes Justin LeBron, an 8.5 rated recruit by PG who was 6'1", 165 lbs, and they have developed him into a monster hitter. Georgia has Slate Alford leading off and OPSing over 1.000 on the year, and this is a player we had that we couldn't maximize.

[Pinto]

Some are going to disagree with me on this, but where we have fallen behind some other SEC programs is with the analytical aspects of player development. We have a staff that doesn't buy into analytics. They use it some, but they aren't all in. Whereas at Tennessee, Georgia, and Alabama, they are 100% on board with analytics. They are maximizing fastball velocity, spin, and vertical movement with their pitchers. They are maximizing launch angle and exit velocities with their hitters. Tennessee gets a transfer in from Louisville who hit 9 HRs all of last season, and he's hit 9 HRs through the first 5 weeks of the season at Tennessee. Alabama takes Justin LeBron, an 8.5 rated recruit by PG who was 6'1", 165 lbs, and they have developed him into a monster hitter. Georgia has Slate Alford leading off and OPSing over 1.000 on the year, and this is a player we had that we couldn't maximize.

I?m not convinced that Tennessee hasn?t injected the mid 90s LSU strength program in their veins.

At the SEC tournament last year Tennessee players just looked way different from every other school including LSU with Tommy Tanks in the championship game.

[KB21]

Look at Liam Doyle at Ole Miss vs Liam Doyle at Tennessee. Liam Doyle at Ole Miss wasn't throwing upper 90s consistently and striking out greater than 50% of hitters. Liam Doyle at Tennessee has a 52.6% K rate.

[EdwardDrayton]

I?m not convinced that Tennessee hasn?t injected the mid 90s LSU strength program in their veins.

At the SEC tournament last year Tennessee players just looked way different from every other school including LSU with Tommy Tanks in the championship game.

^^^^^^^

[StarkVegasSteve]

Todd you follow this a lot closer than most so I'll give the floor to you on this one. If this thing spirals, which it looks like it's beginning to, when do you make the move? Because if it's in season, which you can do, I think the most sense would be do it after the Auburn series. It's the weekend before SBW so you could probably generate a good crowd with someone new at the helm. Otherwise you probably just wait til after the season.

[parabrave]

Todd you follow this a lot closer than most so I'll give the floor to you on this one. If this thing spirals, which it looks like it's beginning to, when do you make the move? Because if it's in season, which you can do, I think the most sense would be do it after the Auburn series. It's the weekend before SBW so you could probably generate a good crowd with someone new at the helm. Otherwise you probably just wait til after the season.

before you fire him you better know who is going to replace him. hey guys this shitshow that is being fielded is an all staff effort.

[AlSwearengen]

Lemonis' players and teams find ways to lose. That is as far as you need to dive into it.

[StarkVegasSteve]

before you fire him you better know who is going to replace him. hey guys this shitshow that is being fielded is an all staff effort.

Then you don't fire him til after the season. If you're not going to fire until you know who the replacement is then you wait. If you just say, we need to end this version of it and we'll start our search, then you make the move.

[KB21]

Calling this a shitshow is a bit extreme. We aren't getting run ruled by anyone. All but one of our losses has been by 3 runs or fewer. We are losing games on the margins. What are the reasons for losing games on the margins? Some of it is luck, such as hard-hit balls that are right at players and one bad location on a pitch when the pitcher has otherwise been dominant. Some of it is coaching strategy, such as leaving a 66 wRC+ hitter in the lineup and rotating guys who have wRC+'s greater than 156. Some of it is due to a player having an off day that isn't normal for him, such as Dylan Cupp letting an in between hop get through when 99% of the time he vacuums that up.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Lemonis' players and teams find ways to lose. That is as far as you need to dive into it.

We don't have very many mentally tough guys. And it's a trend so it's not just a we recruited wrong one class. It's a we recruited wrong in multiple classes and that's on the HC.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Calling this a shitshow is a bit extreme. We aren't getting run ruled by anyone. All but one of our losses has been by 3 runs or fewer. We are losing games on the margins. What are the reasons for losing games on the margins? Some of it is luck, such as hard-hit balls that are right at players and one bad location on a pitch when the pitcher has otherwise been dominant. Some of it is coaching strategy, such as leaving a 66 wRC+ hitter in the lineup and rotating guys who have wRC+'s greater than 156. Some of it is due to a player having an off day that isn't normal for him, such as Dylan Cupp letting an in between hop get through when 99% of the time he vacuums that up.

But when you're 22-31 in one run games since the national championship, "that's baseball" isn't the trend anymore. Those decisions that Lemonis makes are continuing to be wrong decisions. He's lost 31 one run games and every loss is the same recipe. Leaving a pitcher in too long, bringing in the wrong guy, mental mistakes by players, etc. Like every one of those 31 games follows that script basically. And honestly a lot of 22 one run wins are walk offs that we just got lucky and found a pitch. Heck a few of them are big leads that we almost blew because of the stuff that we do when we lose.

[KB21]

But when you're 22-31 in one run games since the national championship, "that's baseball" isn't the trend anymore. Those decisions that Lemonis makes are continuing to be wrong decisions. He's lost 31 one run games and every loss is the same recipe. Leaving a pitcher in too long, bringing in the wrong guy, mental mistakes by players, etc. Like every one of those 31 games follows that script basically. And honestly a lot of 22 one run wins are walk offs that we just got lucky and found a pitch. Heck a few of them are big leads that we almost blew because of the stuff that we do when we lose.

...and a lot of that is because of what I said earlier. Lemonis doesn't embrace analytics. He may tinker with them, but he's very much a "coach by the gut feeling" type of coach.

[StarkVegasSteve]

...and a lot of that is because of what I said earlier. Lemonis doesn't embrace analytics. He may tinker with them, but he's very much a "coach by the gut feeling" type of coach.

Well maybe he doesn't need to coach by instinct anymore. I think he started to get too high of an opinion of himself and his decision making after the first 3 years. And to his credit, a lot of the decisions he made in those first 3 years were the right ones and paid off.

Also, Tanner Allen thinks your opinion is crap. He thinks analytics have no place in baseball. Which I really don't know what he was getting at with that one. I don't know if someone told him analytically he was a god awful pro or something. Very strange diatribe he went on the other night on Twitter.

[KB21]

Well maybe he doesn't need to coach by instinct anymore. I think he started to get too high of an opinion of himself and his decision making after the first 3 years. And to his credit, a lot of the decisions he made in those first 3 years were the right ones and paid off.

Also, Tanner Allen thinks your opinion is crap. He thinks analytics have no place in baseball. Which I really don't know what he was getting at with that one. I don't know if someone told him analytically he was a god awful pro or something. Very strange diatribe he went on the other night on Twitter.

I think Tanner is mostly upset that he's going to top out as a lower level minor league player because he doesn't have power, and he's lashing out at the analytics community because of the value they put on power.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I think Tanner is mostly upset that he's going to top out as a lower level minor league player because he doesn't have power, and he's lashing out at the analytics community because of the value they put on power.

I had no clue what it was. It was eerily similar to those crazy Bo Wallace rants he'll go on about once every 4-5 months.

[BankerDog]

I think Tanner is mostly upset that he's going to top out as a lower level minor league player because he doesn't have power, and he's lashing out at the analytics community because of the value they put on power.

Both TA and Nick Fitz in football need to stop. They?re embarrassing.

[BankerDog]

I think Tanner is mostly upset that he's going to top out as a lower level minor league player because he doesn't have power, and he's lashing out at the analytics community because of the value they put on power.

And it isn?t even power. His BA never broke over .250?

[Quaoarsking]

If Lemonis "doesn't believe in analytics," he should not only be fired today, he shouldn't work in baseball anymore.

[KB21]

I had no clue what it was. It was eerily similar to those crazy Bo Wallace rants he'll go on about once every 4-5 months.

There are still some who believe that focusing on launch angle as a hitter is bad baseball. Tanner is one of those. My thing is that if you aren't trying to maximize launch angle and exit velocity as a hitter, then you are falling behind. There's a reason Jake Mangum is going to be more of a, what I call a quad-A player, long term. He's a singles hitter that doesn't walk. There just isn't much value in modern baseball for that profile.

[KB21]

If Lemonis "doesn't believe in analytics," he should not only be fired today, he shouldn't work in baseball anymore.

I'm not necessarily saying he doesn't believe in them. I'm saying he doesn't use them to the extent that Tony Vitello, Wes Johnson, and Rob Vaughn in particular use them.

[StarkVegasSteve]

There are still some who believe that focusing on launch angle as a hitter is bad baseball. Tanner is one of those. My thing is that if you aren't trying to maximize launch angle and exit velocity as a hitter, then you are falling behind. There's a reason Jake Mangum is going to be more of a, what I call a quad-A player, long term. He's a singles hitter that doesn't walk. There just isn't much value in modern baseball for that profile.

I'll be honest, that's something I know very little about. I know enough to know that baseball purists think it's the ruining the game and the analytics community is saying that the baseball purists say that every time people start believing the analytics community.

Just weird to see him go on a diatribe about it and seem genuinely pissed off that analytics was in baseball.

[KB21]

I'll be honest, that's something I know very little about. I know enough to know that baseball purists think it's the ruining the game and the analytics community is saying that the baseball purists say that every time people start believing the analytics community.

Just weird to see him go on a diatribe about it and seem genuinely pissed off that analytics was in baseball.

Well, one thing is for sure. You can't let Tanner Allen have any say over who is the next baseball coach at Mississippi State.

[Coach34]

If Lemonis "doesn't believe in analytics," he should not only be fired today, he shouldn't work in baseball anymore.

He believes in something when he is hitting for Downs against a lefty with a lefty and sitting a red hot Reeves so Sanders can hit vs a lefty at the biggest point of the game

[KB21]

He believes in something when he is hitting for Downs against a lefty with a lefty and sitting a red hot Reeves so Sanders can hit vs a lefty at the biggest point of the game

Analytics isn't telling him to pinch hit a lefty vs a lefty, just as analytics isn't tell him to sit one of Downs, Stevens, and Stallman while keeping Hines in the lineup every day.

[Coursesuper]

Todd you follow this a lot closer than most so I'll give the floor to you on this one. If this thing spirals, which it looks like it's beginning to, when do you make the move? Because if it's in season, which you can do, I think the most sense would be do it after the Auburn series. It's the weekend before SBW so you could probably generate a good crowd with someone new at the helm. Otherwise you probably just wait til after the season.

Have to make the move at the end but have to be moving on a replacement last week. Hopefully we are very unlike ourselves and ahead of the curve on this one.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Well, one thing is for sure. You can't let Tanner Allen have any say over who is the next baseball coach at Mississippi State.

He'll give his two cents and I'm sure some of our fanbase will say he needs to be the AD.

[KB21]

He'll give his two cents and I'm sure some of our fanbase will say he needs to be the AD.

I'm sure. We still have some in this fanbase that believes you should bunt every time you have a runner at first with fewer than 2 outs.

[Pinto]

There are still some who believe that focusing on launch angle as a hitter is bad baseball. Tanner is one of those. My thing is that if you aren't trying to maximize launch angle and exit velocity as a hitter, then you are falling behind. There's a reason Jake Mangum is going to be more of a, what I call a quad-A player, long term. He's a singles hitter that doesn't walk. There just isn't much value in modern baseball for that profile.

Ken Griffey Junior feels that same way. Jr even says that a home run is a mistake.

It?s a split in the road of baseball. Some feel that a guy that strikes out 200 times and barely bats 200 but gets 40 hrs shouldn?t be payed major bucks.

I?m in the group that wants 9 line drive hitters that works the count and runs the bases over the long ball teams. Just a matter of how you want to play the game.

[DownwardDawg]

We need another dirtbag type coach. Cohen and Cann were tough. They recruited our National Champ team. Lemonis is lost.
Hell, our entire AD is lost. It's embarrassing being State fan today, but I can't change my allegiance.

[StarkVegasSteve]

We need another dirtbag type coach. Cohen and Cann were tough. They recruited our National Champ team. Lemonis is lost.
Hell, our entire AD is lost. It's embarrassing being State fan today, but I can't change my allegiance.

You don't need a dirtbag coach. You just need a guy with a ton of confidence. It almost borders on asshole but because he's your coach, you like it. Vitello is like that. DVH is like that. Bianco is like that. Those guys believe they are going to take your soul every time their team takes the field. You don't need a nice guy on the top step. You can hire a GA or Director of Baseball Ops for that.

[Cooterpoot]

There are still some who believe that focusing on launch angle as a hitter is bad baseball. Tanner is one of those. My thing is that if you aren't trying to maximize launch angle and exit velocity as a hitter, then you are falling behind. There's a reason Jake Mangum is going to be more of a, what I call a quad-A player, long term. He's a singles hitter that doesn't walk. There just isn't much value in modern baseball for that profile.

Not one single player can identify launch angle at X degrees in an AB. The truth is launch angle is the same as getting on plane and it's been taught forever.

[StateDawg44]

We need another dirtbag type coach. Cohen and Cann were tough. They recruited our National Champ team. Lemonis is lost.
Hell, our entire AD is lost. It's embarrassing being State fan today, but I can't change my allegiance.



My boss here in TN knows their recent success in baseball drives me insane. He always jokes with me about swapping my fandom but I actually engaged him the other day and said as tempting as it is at the moment it just isn't in me. I always pull for an underdog for some reason.

Plus I hate UT but even if he was talking about Vandy or UGA or Bama I couldn't do it. But damn it sucks to suck.

[Tbonewannabe]

Chipper Jones also hates the whole launch angle coaching. Follow him on Twitter and he goes off sometimes.

[EdwardDrayton]

He believes in something when he is hitting for Downs against a lefty with a lefty and sitting a red hot Reeves so Sanders can hit vs a lefty at the biggest point of the game

Think you said the analytics were "anti-bunt" in that situation but it sure felt like bunting was the play. And of course can't say analytics were wrong based on one data point. Buuuut ....... I know what I would've done (FWIW), analytics be damned in that one situation. Both intuition and analytics have a place in the game and each situation is circumstantial.

[KB21]

https://youtu.be/HXNKa_iWg-4

[EdwardDrayton]

Chipper Jones also hates the whole launch angle coaching. Follow him on Twitter and he goes off sometimes.

Certainly not hard to see how focusing on launch angle might be detrimental to an overall approach at the plate.

[KB21]

Basically, Tanner's diatribe is his reaction to Jake Mangum getting optioned to AAA.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Basically, Tanner's diatribe is his reaction to Jake Mangum getting optioned to AAA.

Ahh well.....Jake is 29. That's really old for a minor leaguer trying to make it with the big club. The MLB is in the market of putting butts in the seats. And if they were playing their games in Pearl, Jake would be and every day outfielder for them. Unfortunately, no one outside of the Mississippi State fanbase really gives a rip about Jake. He's just another player. So they're going to go to the guys who, while they may strike out 3 times, they might hit a HR in AB number 4. They're also going to play the younger guys.

[Quaoarsking]

I love Jake Mangum like we all do, but mathematical analysis conclusively proves that a guy who hits .200 and strikes out a lot, but has power, is going to lead to more wins than guy like Jake who has a higher average but no power. Every team (except Mississippi State maybe) puts winning as the #1 priority and will structure their lineups and rosters accordingly.

If MLB wants that to change, they're going to have to change the rules somehow so that these strikeout guys hurt the team more than they currently do.

[Cowbell]

Chipper Jones also hates the whole launch angle coaching. Follow him on Twitter and he goes off sometimes.

Like father...like son

[confucius say]

I love Jake Mangum like we all do, but mathematical analysis conclusively proves that a guy who hits .200 and strikes out a lot, but has power, is going to lead to more wins than guy like Jake who has a higher average but no power. Every team (except Mississippi State maybe) puts winning as the #1 priority and will structure their lineups and rosters accordingly.

If MLB wants that to change, they're going to have to change the rules somehow so that these strikeout guys hurt the team more than they currently do.

No it doesn't. Hitting .200 with 25 HR and 300 strikeouts and playing bad defense doesn't conclusively translate to more wins than hitting .350 with 5 HR and 50 strikeouts and great defense. Especially without knowing ops. It could, but depends on other metrics.
Nuance matters.

[DownwardDawg]

You don't need a dirtbag coach. You just need a guy with a ton of confidence. It almost borders on asshole but because he's your coach, you like it. Vitello is like that. DVH is like that. Bianco is like that. Those guys believe they are going to take your soul every time their team takes the field. You don't need a nice guy on the top step. You can hire a GA or Director of Baseball Ops for that.

This is exactly what I meant. Not like a Hugh freeze dirtbag. Lol

[sandjunky]

There is only one thing the Big Back is concerned with- his next meal and he doesn?t eat Ws

[Todd4State]

No it doesn't. Hitting .200 with 25 HR and 300 strikeouts and playing bad defense doesn't conclusively translate to more wins than hitting .350 with 5 HR and 50 strikeouts and great defense. Especially without knowing ops. It could, but depends on other metrics.
Nuance matters.

I think the big issue is batting average has been marginalized and you have the strikeouts are OK thing going on at the same time. As long as you hit 20 home runs it's fine.

Unless you're Hunter Hines.**

My thing is this. If you look at the guys that hit 700 home runs in MLB history- Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, and Aaron and you could look at the 600 home run guys like Mays and etc.

Those guys could hit for power BUT what made them so dangerous and allowed them to hit more home runs was the fact that they could hit for average and they didn't strike out a ton compared to other power hitters.

I think that's what is getting lost in the math and I think you have too many people telling players "hey just be satisfied being Dave Kingman or Joey Gallo" when they should be telling players to strive to be like Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, or Aaron. Try to be a complete player rather than a home run or nothing guy.

I was joking about Hunter Hines but it is a good case in point because when he was trying to pull everything our fans certainly notified how unproductive he was. But now that he has been using the whole field a lot more lately he has been a lot more valuable and productive. That's because he's harder to pitch to now.

[Todd4State]

Think you said the analytics were "anti-bunt" in that situation but it sure felt like bunting was the play. And of course can't say analytics were wrong based on one data point. Buuuut ....... I know what I would've done (FWIW), analytics be damned in that one situation. Both intuition and analytics have a place in the game and each situation is circumstantial.

Well the thing is you can't and shouldn't use broad scape analytics to every situation because there are a lot more things that matter. Who is the hitter and how does he hit the pitcher? If you have a speed guy up who is a good bunter or a hitter that is struggling bunting may be the better choice. If it's Tanner Allen or Hunter Hines probably not.

[EdwardDrayton]

One of the most successful CEOs I know is not a Vitello type.

Never mistake kindness for weakness. You'll get your hat handed to you.

[StarkVegasSteve]

One of the most successful CEOs I know is not a Vitello type.

Never mistake kindness for weakness. You'll get your hat handed to you.

You are not wrong. Most CEOs are very well measured and do not lash out at everything. However, most of our fan base sees Lemonis look like he does not care, which I think we know is not true but the point remains, so I think the natural reaction to that is for people to want us to over correct and go hire a Vitello type. They also have seen that work here with Polk and Cohen.

[EdwardDrayton]

I think the big issue is batting average has been marginalized and you have the strikeouts are OK thing going on at the same time. As long as you hit 20 home runs it's fine.

Unless you're Hunter Hines.**

My thing is this. If you look at the guys that hit 700 home runs in MLB history- Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, and Aaron and you could look at the 600 home run guys like Mays and etc.

Those guys could hit for power BUT what made them so dangerous and allowed them to hit more home runs was the fact that they could hit for average and they didn't strike out a ton compared to other power hitters.

I think that's what is getting lost in the math and I think you have too many people telling players "hey just be satisfied being Dave Kingman or Joey Gallo" when they should be telling players to strive to be like Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, or Aaron. Try to be a complete player rather than a home run or nothing guy.

I was joking about Hunter Hines but it is a good case in point because when he was trying to pull everything our fans certainly notified how unproductive he was. But now that he has been using the whole field a lot more lately he has been a lot more valuable and productive. That's because he's harder to pitch to now.

All true

[Pancho]

Some quiet types simply do not know...........

[EdwardDrayton]

You are not wrong. Most CEOs are very well measured and do not lash out at everything. However, most of our fan base sees Lemonis look like he does not care, which I think we know is not true but the point remains, so I think the natural reaction to that is for people to want us to over correct and go hire a Vitello type. They also have seen that work here with Polk and Cohen.

And I have to admit, it does seem Lemo doesn't really care. And, yes, some want us to over correct because they see it can work. But even with Polk and Cohen, they would use it for effect. They were pretty measured thinkers too. Some guys are just hotheads.

[DownwardDawg]

One of the most successful CEOs I know is not a Vitello type.

Never mistake kindness for weakness. You'll get your hat handed to you.

Also, never confuse large corporations with sports. Totally different.
I have a pretty large team. We aren't a sports program. I'd look like an idiot if I cursed and went on tirades.
Sports is totally different. Saban is always my favorite example.

[EdwardDrayton]

Also, never confuse large corporations with sports. Totally different.
I have a pretty large team. We aren't a sports program. I'd look like an idiot if I cursed and went on tirades.
Sports is totally different. Saban is always my favorite example.

Just don't see it that way Down. It's leading people to a common goal. And there are different personalities that are successful doing so. But they all know how to lead.

[KB21]

I think the big issue is batting average has been marginalized and you have the strikeouts are OK thing going on at the same time. As long as you hit 20 home runs it's fine.

Unless you're Hunter Hines.**

My thing is this. If you look at the guys that hit 700 home runs in MLB history- Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, and Aaron and you could look at the 600 home run guys like Mays and etc.

Those guys could hit for power BUT what made them so dangerous and allowed them to hit more home runs was the fact that they could hit for average and they didn't strike out a ton compared to other power hitters.

I think that's what is getting lost in the math and I think you have too many people telling players "hey just be satisfied being Dave Kingman or Joey Gallo" when they should be telling players to strive to be like Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, or Aaron. Try to be a complete player rather than a home run or nothing guy.

I was joking about Hunter Hines but it is a good case in point because when he was trying to pull everything our fans certainly notified how unproductive he was. But now that he has been using the whole field a lot more lately he has been a lot more valuable and productive. That's because he's harder to pitch to now.

The data reflects all that. Babe Ruth is #1 all time in WAR. Barry Bonds is 4th, behind Ruth, Walter Johnson, and Cy Young. Willie Mays is 5th, Ty Cobb is 6th, and Hank Aaron is 7th. Those are easy to identify.

Where the analytics helps is that the numbers shows that Kyle Schwarber hitting .230 with 30 plus home runs is far more valuable than Juan Pierre hitting .295 with a .336 slug.

[EdwardDrayton]

Also, never confuse large corporations with sports. Totally different.
I have a pretty large team. We aren't a sports program. I'd look like an idiot if I cursed and went on tirades.
Sports is totally different. Saban is always my favorite example.

The Dolphins say hi. :)

[Coursesuper]

One of the most successful CEOs I know is not a Vitello type.

Never mistake kindness for weakness. You'll get your hat handed to you.

Here is the point, Now with pay for play and unlimited transfer this is a zero sum game. It is cut throat, those that have $$ are gong to ruthlessly apply pressure to those of us that don't. We have to have personnel that are going to compete at the highest level with less than the others do. We have to get out of our own way no matter what. Our monied alums that like to rub their genitalia (figuratively) with athletes and coaches to make them feel younger need to give the $$ and get the 17 out of the way. We can't compete on the stage we are on now with them in the way.

[DownwardDawg]

The Dolphins say hi. :)

I understand your point and always respect your opinion. But the Crimson Tide laughs at the dolphins for saying hi. And if Saban would have been able to make the decisions, Drew Brees would have been his QB. So that's a terrible example.

[DownwardDawg]

Here is the point, Now with pay for play and unlimited transfer this is a zero sum game. It is cut throat, those that have $$ are gong to ruthlessly apply pressure to those of us that don't. We have to have personnel that are going to compete at the highest level with less than the others do. We have to get out of our own way no matter what. Our monied alums that like to rub their genitalia (figuratively) with athletes and coaches to make them feel younger need to give the $$ and get the 17 out of the way. We can't compete on the stage we are on now with them in the way.

This is 100% accurate.

[KB21]

I understand your point and always respect your opinion. But the Crimson Tide laughs at the dolphins for saying hi. And if Saban would have been able to make the decisions, Drew Brees would have been his QB. So that's a terrible example.

Saban was the decision maker in Miami. He uses the doctors not signing off on Brees as an excuse for why he went with Culpepper. He still had the authority to sign Brees.

[mparkerfd20]

I'll tune back into baseball when Lemonis is fired

[Pancho]

I'm leaning more toward that myself. I want to watch teams that scrap and play as if their life depended on it. It would be good to have coaching that acted the same as well.

[EdwardDrayton]

Here is the point, Now with pay for play and unlimited transfer this is a zero sum game. It is cut throat, those that have $$ are gong to ruthlessly apply pressure to those of us that don't. We have to have personnel that are going to compete at the highest level with less than the others do. We have to get out of our own way no matter what. Our monied alums that like to rub their genitalia (figuratively) with athletes and coaches to make them feel younger need to give the $$ and get the 17 out of the way. We can't compete on the stage we are on now with them in the way.

Yes, money talks. And, yes, those that get in the way need to have the door shut on them. This monied, back slapping, good ole boys club that demands access and decision making rights needs to have their access card revoked.

[EdwardDrayton]

I understand your point and always respect your opinion. But the Crimson Tide laughs at the dolphins for saying hi. And if Saban would have been able to make the decisions, Drew Brees would have been his QB. So that's a terrible example.

We have seen it before in sports. The approach that Saban used with college kids did not work with professional athletes that made more money than he did. Saw the same thing happen in the corporate world when career military guys tried to conduct leadership the same way as in the military. Both military guys at the GM level lasted twelve months and were booted.

And now we're seeing college sports become professional. And we're seeing these players already becoming prima donnas. They are going to become increasingly unmanageable with old school ways.

[StarkVegasSteve]

And I have to admit, it does seem Lemo doesn't really care. And, yes, some want us to over correct because they see it can work. But even with Polk and Cohen, they would use it for effect. They were pretty measured thinkers too. Some guys are just hotheads.

Not old enough to remember Polk 1 but I have told this story before in regards to Cohen. I think it was his first season and we were playing LSU. We blew an 8th or 9th inning lead and I watched Cohen stand on the steps and yell that every kid needed to get out of the stadium, which was very considerate for what was about to come. I then watched him put every player on the steps of the dugout and drop more F bombs, GDs, and MFs than I have ever heard come out of someone?s mouth. It was absolutely incredible.

Now I am not saying Lemonis needs to drop F bombs to show he cares, but that night showed people that were still left in that stadium how much Cohen cared. I have often said how much I hated Cohen as an AD but I will always respect him as a baseball coach. He left the program in about as good of a place as a HC could leave a program.

[EdwardDrayton]

Not old enough to remember Polk 1 but I have told this story before in regards to Cohen. I think it was his first season and we were playing LSU. We blew an 8th or 9th inning lead and I watched Cohen stand on the steps and yell that every kid needed to get out of the stadium, which was very considerate for what was about to come. I then watched him put every player on the steps of the dugout and drop more F bombs, GDs, and MFs than I have ever heard come out of someone?s mouth. It was absolutely incredible.

Now I am not saying Lemonis needs to drop F bombs to show he cares, but that night showed people that were still left in that stadium how much Cohen cared. I have often said how much I hated Cohen as an AD but I will always respect him as a baseball coach. He left the program in about as good of a place as a HC could leave a program.

That's a great story Steve. And one that maybe unfortunately I can relate to. I am not that guy to be clear. But there have been a couple of times in my days when I didn't feel people were hearing the message and were all pulling in the same direction as folks like to say. Those of us driven to succeed recognize obstacles and the passion causes us to do things out of character at times. Now I do refrain from the GDs because of my faith. But all the others I have used. Not something I'm proud of but I certainly understand how it happens.

[Santiago]

Not old enough to remember Polk 1 but I have told this story before in regards to Cohen. I think it was his first season and we were playing LSU. We blew an 8th or 9th inning lead and I watched Cohen stand on the steps and yell that every kid needed to get out of the stadium, which was very considerate for what was about to come. I then watched him put every player on the steps of the dugout and drop more F bombs, GDs, and MFs than I have ever heard come out of someone?s mouth. It was absolutely incredible.

Now I am not saying Lemonis needs to drop F bombs to show he cares, but that night showed people that were still left in that stadium how much Cohen cared. I have often said how much I hated Cohen as an AD but I will always respect him as a baseball coach. He left the program in about as good of a place as a HC could leave a program.

I heard a story, not sure if true, actually a couple of stories.
1. That in the first season or so, he stopped practice and chewed out a batter for flinching from taking a fast ball to get on base in a scrimmage.

2. This story I heard was true, something about in the locker room he was saying something back when Adam Frazier was there and asked if the team agreed or something, and Frazier stood up and said "that is complete BS , and no I don't accept it". They said Cohen said that is what he was looking for out of his players. Tough guys who would lead.

[Pancho]

1. true
2. true

[AROB44]

Yes, money talks. And, yes, those that get in the way need to have the door shut on them. This monied, back slapping, good ole boys club that demands access and decision making rights needs to have their access card revoked.

So...if you were a big donor, you wouldn't want any special treatment? I don't buy that at all. Easy to say that when you're not a big donor. Seems as if many on here either (1) say they can't afford it or they are too cheap or(2) have some high minded moral stand which really means nothing. Either way, this guarantees we continue to lose and message boards continue to be home for the bitchers.

[StarkVegasSteve]

I heard a story, not sure if true, actually a couple of stories.
1. That in the first season or so, he stopped practice and chewed out a batter for flinching from taking a fast ball to get on base in a scrimmage.

2. This story I heard was true, something about in the locker room he was saying something back when Adam Frazier was there and asked if the team agreed or something, and Frazier stood up and said "that is complete BS , and no I don't accept it". They said Cohen said that is what he was looking for out of his players. Tough guys who would lead.

First story is definitely true because I have heard that one too. I have no clue on the second story solely because I just have not heard it. It would not shock me though, that team had some very strong personalities on it. I mean the 13 team with Frazier and Co. were the ones that got Cohen to let them have facial hair and long hair.

[EdwardDrayton]

So...if you were a big donor, you wouldn't want any special treatment? I don't buy that at all. Easy to say that when you're not a big donor. Seems as if many on here either (1) say they can't afford it or they are too cheap or(2) have some high minded moral stand which really means nothing. Either way, this guarantees we continue to lose and message boards continue to be home for the bitchers.

I don't have that kind of ego. I empower folks to do their job and get the 17 out of their way.

[KB21]

Not old enough to remember Polk 1 but I have told this story before in regards to Cohen. I think it was his first season and we were playing LSU. We blew an 8th or 9th inning lead and I watched Cohen stand on the steps and yell that every kid needed to get out of the stadium, which was very considerate for what was about to come. I then watched him put every player on the steps of the dugout and drop more F bombs, GDs, and MFs than I have ever heard come out of someone?s mouth. It was absolutely incredible.

Now I am not saying Lemonis needs to drop F bombs to show he cares, but that night showed people that were still left in that stadium how much Cohen cared. I have often said how much I hated Cohen as an AD but I will always respect him as a baseball coach. He left the program in about as good of a place as a HC could leave a program.

Heck, Lemonis got criticized when he chewed Reed Stallman one after he overran the base earlier this season.

[Pancho]

he better start chewing more then but chewing doesn't grant one a true baseball IQ though. maybe he need to hush and find a realtor.

[parabrave]

That's a great story Steve. And one that maybe unfortunately I can relate to. I am not that guy to be clear. But there have been a couple of times in my days when I didn't feel people were hearing the message and were all pulling in the same direction as folks like to say. Those of us driven to succeed recognize obstacles and the passion causes us to do things out of character at times. Now I do refrain from the GDs because of my faith. But all the others I have used. Not something I'm proud of but I certainly understand how it happens.

I made 2 second Lieutenants cry one day one the range when they didn't answer a radio check, Big no no. NG officers weren't used to officers right out of the 82nd ABN Div.

[Santiago]

First story is definitely true because I have heard that one too. I have no clue on the second story solely because I just have not heard it. It would not shock me though, that team had some very strong personalities on it. I mean the 13 team with Frazier and Co. were the ones that got Cohen to let them have facial hair and long hair.

That 13 team was my ideal MSU team. I remember we played the regional or super up at Virginia, and reading the posts of their fans. Our bearded guys, along with big Wes, had them questioning if they actually attended college or were short haul drivers that showed up for weekend games.

[Todd4State]

Not old enough to remember Polk 1 but I have told this story before in regards to Cohen. I think it was his first season and we were playing LSU. We blew an 8th or 9th inning lead and I watched Cohen stand on the steps and yell that every kid needed to get out of the stadium, which was very considerate for what was about to come. I then watched him put every player on the steps of the dugout and drop more F bombs, GDs, and MFs than I have ever heard come out of someone?s mouth. It was absolutely incredible.

Now I am not saying Lemonis needs to drop F bombs to show he cares, but that night showed people that were still left in that stadium how much Cohen cared. I have often said how much I hated Cohen as an AD but I will always respect him as a baseball coach. He left the program in about as good of a place as a HC could leave a program.

I remember one time we lost the Governor's Cup in I think one if his first two years as coach with a real lackluster BS effort that was common for MSU baseball at that time and he made Everett or whoever was driving the bus pull over in the middle of nowhere Mississippi on Highway 25 to just cuss the team out for their piss poor effort.

From what I heard.

[Todd4State]

The data reflects all that. Babe Ruth is #1 all time in WAR. Barry Bonds is 4th, behind Ruth, Walter Johnson, and Cy Young. Willie Mays is 5th, Ty Cobb is 6th, and Hank Aaron is 7th. Those are easy to identify.

Where the analytics helps is that the numbers shows that Kyle Schwarber hitting .230 with 30 plus home runs is far more valuable than Juan Pierre hitting .295 with a .336 slug.

Juan Pierre is more valuable stealing bases and doing what he does well rather than have him try to hit 30 home runs. Players have to use their skill set and teams have to build to make their team the best it can be all around. If you have a bunch of Kyle Schwarber's your defense is going to suck and it's going to cost you a lot of games.

[Cowbell]

A lot of you guys have valid points. I'm going to add to it. Lemonis is a good dude. The kind of guy you really want yo be friends with. He cares about the kids deep down. The problem is he lacks the discipline needed that demands respect from those under his care. Look at his physique. It has worsened since he got here. There aren't many coaches that are that out of shape that have turned out to be great leaders. It's just not how it works. You demand respect by leading by example. He doesn't toe the line so it's hard for that to be engrained in those he leads. Some of you may laugh at me for this but it's the truth. Look at all the great baseball coaches out there that are his age....

[SpaceBully]

None of us can do anything about it......only question is will Selmon or would he.

[StarkVegasSteve]

None of us can do anything about it......only question is will Selmon or would he.

It is going to come down to this: at what point is enough enough for the baseball boosters? Because at the end of the day, they are going to be the ones to have to come up with the money to not only buy out this staff, but hire the new staff. And I am going to tell you it is probably a worse outcome than you would think. A lot of them idolize Lemonis because he lets them hang around the team and get to know the players. That did not happen under Cohen. I do believe that if we miss the tournament he is done. But if we make it, I would not be surprised to see him stay.

[Coursesuper]

It is going to come down to this: at what point is enough enough for the baseball boosters? Because at the end of the day, they are going to be the ones to have to come up with the money to not only buy out this staff, but hire the new staff. And I am going to tell you it is probably a worse outcome than you would think. A lot of them idolize Lemonis because he lets them hang around the team and get to know the players. That did not happen under Cohen. I do believe that if we miss the tournament he is done. But if we make it, I would not be surprised to see him stay.

This is correct, those boosters are a huge part of the problem with the program and they need to be pushed back or out right pushed away from the program.

[StarkVegasSteve]

This is correct, those boosters are a huge part of the problem with the program and they need to be pushed back or out right pushed away from the program.

I think pushed back is the correct answer. You obviously do not want to push them out. And I am not even saying cut their access, just sit them down and read them the riot act about some of this stuff. Because it is making them extremely biased and they need to have some unbias if they are the ones controlling the money. You can have 1 or 2 boosters that are biased but right now we have over half of them are extremely biased in favor of Lemonis.

[Pancho]

they appear leaning more towards not making the tourney than coming close to a host. it's a hell of a bad look for folks who evidently can't smell their own sh*t.

[Todd4State]

It is going to come down to this: at what point is enough enough for the baseball boosters? Because at the end of the day, they are going to be the ones to have to come up with the money to not only buy out this staff, but hire the new staff. And I am going to tell you it is probably a worse outcome than you would think. A lot of them idolize Lemonis because he lets them hang around the team and get to know the players. That did not happen under Cohen. I do believe that if we miss the tournament he is done. But if we make it, I would not be surprised to see him stay.

Exactly. Similar problem when Polk 2 was here although I'm not sure how much player access he allowed. But they definitely had access to him.

[Duckdog]

A lot of you guys have valid points. I'm going to add to it. Lemonis is a good dude. The kind of guy you really want yo be friends with. He cares about the kids deep down. The problem is he lacks the discipline needed that demands respect from those under his care. Look at his physique. It has worsened since he got here. There aren't many coaches that are that out of shape that have turned out to be great leaders. It's just not how it works. You demand respect by leading by example. He doesn't toe the line so it's hard for that to be engrained in those he leads. Some of you may laugh at me for this but it's the truth. Look at all the great baseball coaches out there that are his age....
Shutup with this BS

[StarkVegasSteve]

Exactly. Similar problem when Polk 2 was here although I'm not sure how much player access he allowed. But they definitely had access to him.

Well that was the thing with them. He allowed them access to him but would not allow them too close to his players and that was good enough for those boosters. Polk understood the small town thing.

[R2Dawg]

It is going to come down to this: at what point is enough enough for the baseball boosters? Because at the end of the day, they are going to be the ones to have to come up with the money to not only buy out this staff, but hire the new staff. And I am going to tell you it is probably a worse outcome than you would think. A lot of them idolize Lemonis because he lets them hang around the team and get to know the players. That did not happen under Cohen. I do believe that if we miss the tournament he is done. But if we make it, I would not be surprised to see him stay.

Yeah if we miss tourney, he done. Making it as a 4 seed somewhere ain't good enough for me though. We should be in running for hosting at worst a 2 seed like last year every year. Should never go 4 years without hosting which is where we will be this year.

[maroonmania]

A lot of you guys have valid points. I'm going to add to it. Lemonis is a good dude. The kind of guy you really want yo be friends with. He cares about the kids deep down. The problem is he lacks the discipline needed that demands respect from those under his care. Look at his physique. It has worsened since he got here. There aren't many coaches that are that out of shape that have turned out to be great leaders. It's just not how it works. You demand respect by leading by example. He doesn't toe the line so it's hard for that to be engrained in those he leads. Some of you may laugh at me for this but it's the truth. Look at all the great baseball coaches out there that are his age....

I can buy into a lot of what you are saying. It shows in our team. They don't play with an edge and don't play with focus. They play lackadaisical like if they make a mistake in the field or on the bases its ok, we will get 'em next time. They do NOT play like someone who knows if they screw up they are going to have to answer for it. They play like a team that would like to win but its not a big deal if they don't. The one thing I appreciated about Cohen was if someone didn't play the game doing the little things right, he was going to get in their face. A lot of guys on this team could use someone getting up in their face with some very strong language.

[State82]

They play like a team that would like to win but it's not a big deal if they don't.

This is the mini tirade Matt Wyatt went on last Monday on his radio show after Texas took three from us. He was really miffed about several guys in the dugout laughing and joking around late in game 3 as we were about to be swept in our own house. I did not see the tv shot of it like he did but his opinion was that it was a poor look considering. He also summed it up pretty well in saying we are not a winning operation in general.

[Santiago]

Just my take, but when everyone says Lemonis won the NC, yes he did, but with a group of guys that would have driven the bus themselves, and jumped on the younger guys and lead them to that championship if they had to.

In his first year, he had guys like Mangum , who broke his hand from being too fired up hitting a wall playing against Ole Miss.

Now we see players laughing at game 3 of TX, being swept.

[Todd4State]

Well that was the thing with them. He allowed them access to him but would not allow them too close to his players and that was good enough for those boosters. Polk understood the small town thing.

Well, Cohen cut off Polk because he was trying to sabotage for the first five years or so too. So that definitely affected boosters access at the time under Cohen although it was still available to a degree.