People keep asking - how did we get here? Its not hard...

[HancockCountyDog]

Its recruiting people. Real quick analysis:

2020 recruiting class - the kids that could be 5th year seniors or covid seniors on this year's team we have:

Jaden Walley

2021 recruiting class -

Ty Cooper
Deonte Anderson
Antonio Harmon
Canon Boone
Albert Reese
John Lewis
Nic Mitchell
Corey Ellington

2022 recruiting class -

Trevion Williams
Kalvin Dinkins
Jackson Lahue
Javae Gilmore (had no idea he was on the team still)
Donterry Russell

2023 recruiting class

Isaac Smith
Brice Pollack
Chris Parson
Tab Hinton (4 star player?)
Kelley Jones
Seth Davis
Malik Ellis
Joseph Head
Zakari Tillman

That is four recruiting classes of eligible players that could theoretically have eligibility for this year at MSU.

A total of 23 players. That is not 'good attrition' that is terrible recruiting. About 95% of the players not here that could be here are either done with football or at some lower level of football.

Also, out of those 23 players I count less than 3 players that could start on a SEC team that goes 4-4 in the SEC and I think that is generous.

This is how you destroy a football program. 23 players left from 4 recruiting classes where we signed 97 kids. That is the answer. That is how we got so bad.

[BigDawg81]

That and it goes a little deeper than that. Its administration and boosters making awful hires

[redstickdawg]

Its recruiting people. Real quick analysis:

2020 recruiting class - the kids that could be 5th year seniors or covid seniors on this year's team we have:

Jaden Walley

2021 recruiting class -

Ty Cooper
Deonte Anderson
Antonio Harmon
Canon Boone
Albert Reese
John Lewis
Nic Mitchell
Corey Ellington

2022 recruiting class -

Trevion Williams
Kalvin Dinkins
Jackson Lahue
Javae Gilmore (had no idea he was on the team still)
Donterry Russell

2023 recruiting class

Isaac Smith
Brice Pollack
Chris Parson
Tab Hinton (4 star player?)
Kelley Jones
Seth Davis
Malik Ellis
Joseph Head
Zakari Tillman

That is four recruiting classes of eligible players that could theoretically have eligibility for this year at MSU.

A total of 23 players. That is not 'good attrition' that is terrible recruiting. About 95% of the players not here that could be here are either done with football or at some lower level of football.

Also, out of those 23 players I count less than 3 players that could start on a SEC team that goes 4-4 in the SEC and I think that is generous.

This is how you destroy a football program. 23 players left from 4 recruiting classes where we signed 97 kids. That is the answer. That is how we got so bad.

to build our program again it needs to be done with much better recruiting with the portal as an adder not as the base. Its going to be a long road back

[CaptainObvious]

The hiring of Leach was a knee-jerk reaction of needing to make a "splash hire" right after Ole Miss was able to lure Kiffin with sex and money.

The hiring of Arnett was to supposedly hold (Leach's) recruiting class together, a class recruited for Arnett defense and Leach's offense, and then the coach ran nothing resembling Leach's offense. Clown show effort by Keenum and the cigar boys.

The hiring of Selmon rather then a sitting AD at at a G5 or maybe even an FCS school was again a knee-jerk reaction and he opened his reign extremely softly! When he had to make a big turnaround thr program hire, he and Keenum went cheap again going for an OC rather than going after the next sure fire up and coming G5 or FBS coach.

The hiring of Lebby was another easy route and nearly everybody including the Russians and the Ukrainians who were very busy at the time saw that one coming.

And the "first time" head coach went through his phone contacts to hire his staff and well.... here we are!

[RiverCityDawg]

Also the little thing about our head coach literally dying during the season a couple weeks before signing day while we didn't have an AD...

[Really Clark?]

The hiring of Leach was a knee-jerk reaction of needing to make a "splash hire" right after Ole Miss was able to lure Kiffin with sex and money.

The hiring of Arnett was to supposedly hold (Leach's) recruiting class together, a class recruited for Arnett defense and Leach's offense, and then the coach ran nothing resembling Leach's offense. Clown show effort by Keenum and the cigar boys.

The hiring of Selmon rather then a sitting AD at at a G5 or maybe even an FCS school was again a knee-jerk reaction and he opened his reign extremely softly! When he had to make a big turnaround thr program hire, he and Keenum went cheap again going for an OC rather than going after the next sure fire up and coming G5 or FBS coach.

The hiring of Lebby was another easy route and nearly everybody including the Russians and the Ukrainians who were very busy at the time saw that one coming.

And the "first time" head coach went through his phone contacts to hire his staff and well.... here we are!

I would seriously challenge the notion of the next sure fire up and coming G5 coach are more successful than P5 coordinators. It's a crap shoot.

[TrapGame]

Cohen was the worst AD since LT. This falls squarely on him. And it started with Moorhead. This hole has been getting deeper ever since. The best thing about having Lebby in this situation is being able to call Art Briles and ask for advice. If he can switch out his defensive coaching staff with some guys that have an actual clue and get some ballers out of the portal we might, just might, be able to totally turn this around by season 3.

[CaptainObvious]

I would seriously challenge the notion of the next sure fire up and coming G5 coach are more successful than P5 coordinators. It's a crap shoot.

It is indeed apparently a crap shoot for State because our administration has hired....... exactly ZERO up and coming G5 or FCS Head Coaches. Let me repeat that since you brought up "crap shoot". ZERO sitting G5 or FCS Head Coaches hired by State's Admin. Meanwhile, there are cases where "some" have moved up and been successful in the SEC. But let's keep rolling snake eyes hiring coordinators more often than rolling 7's. Mullen being the only 7 and he was trying to leave 5 years after getting here.

[SPMT]

Cohen was the worst AD since LT. This falls squarely on him. And it started with Moorhead. This hole has been getting deeper ever since. The best thing about having Lebby in this situation is being able to call Art Briles and ask for advice. If he can switch out his defensive coaching staff with some guys that have an actual clue and get some ballers out of the portal we might, just might, be able to totally turn this around by season 3.

He can get to 6-6 by next year if he?s any good at recruiting and seeing the problems.

[PGHBulldogBG]

There are so many reasons that we are in the spot we are in that it’s hard to think about it and name all of them. Cohen was a bad AD, but hiring Leach was not a mistake. Leach would have us winning 7 or 8 games almost every year and occasionally in the playoff hunt with a 9 or possibly 10 win season just like he did everywhere else. His passing at the worst possible time is what played a major role. I am definitely over the experiment and have been for awhile of hiring coordinators over successful G5 coaches. At the same time, it is important to identify who the up and coming G5 coach is vs a G5 coach that is just winning at the school they are at because they are out talenting people. Napier and Shawn Clark are examples of coaches that did this. Chadwell is an example of a true up and coming G5 coach that took the worst talent in the sun belt at coastal Carolina and won the conference. I get Chadwell didn’t want our job, but there are others out there that would fit the mold. The only reason Smart and Mullen worked out is because they were actually coordinators for teams that won national titles and coached under the best coaches for a while. Lebby does not have that same background which is why I am hesitant about how successful he will be here. I wish we would have hired Sumrall but I will say the selection Selmon had was probably not the greatest. At the same time, I find it hard to believe Sumrall would tell us no but then go coach at a G5 school

[Really Clark?]

It is indeed apparently a crap shoot for State because our administration has hired....... exactly ZERO up and coming G5 or FCS Head Coaches. Let me repeat that since you brought up "crap shoot". ZERO sitting G5 or FCS Head Coaches hired by State's Admin. Meanwhile, there are cases where "some" have moved up and been successful in the SEC. But let's keep rolling snake eyes hiring coordinators more often than rolling 7's. Mullen being the only 7 and he was trying to leave 5 years after getting here.

Hyperbole. The success and failures historically bare it out. P5 coordinators are just as, if not more successful than G5 HC.

[Coursesuper]

Cohen was the worst AD since LT. This falls squarely on him. And it started with Moorhead. This hole has been getting deeper ever since. The best thing about having Lebby in this situation is being able to call Art Briles and ask for advice. If he can switch out his defensive coaching staff with some guys that have an actual clue and get some ballers out of the portal we might, just might, be able to totally turn this around by season 3.

LT was light years ahead of Cohen. Cohen was the worst AD since Dudy Noble, who with a group of delta alumni drove us off the tracks 80 years ago. Crazy how history repeats itself and here we all are now. We are our own worst enemies and always have been.

[Cooterpoot]

There are so many reasons that we are in the spot we are in that it’s hard to think about it and name all of them. Cohen was a bad AD, but hiring Leach was not a mistake. Leach would have us winning 7 or 8 games almost every year and occasionally in the playoff hunt with a 9 or possibly 10 win season just like he did everywhere else. His passing at the worst possible time is what played a major role. I am definitely over the experiment and have been for awhile of hiring coordinators over successful G5 coaches. At the same time, it is important to identify who the up and coming G5 coach is vs a G5 coach that is just winning at the school they are at because they are out talenting people. Napier and Shawn Clark are examples of coaches that did this. Chadwell is an example of a true up and coming G5 coach that took the worst talent in the sun belt at coastal Carolina and won the conference. I get Chadwell didn’t want our job, but there are others out there that would fit the mold. The only reason Smart and Mullen worked out is because they were actually coordinators for teams that won national titles and coached under the best coaches for a while. Lebby does not have that same background which is why I am hesitant about how successful he will be here. I wish we would have hired Sumrall but I will say the selection Selmon had was probably not the greatest. At the same time, I find it hard to believe Sumrall would tell us no but then go coach at a G5 school

Leach never recruited a day at MSU. He's very much responsible for this shit. We didn't want Sumrall thankfully.

[TrapGame]

He can get to 6-6 by next year if he?s any good at recruiting and seeing the problems.

Revamp the defense w/ better coaches and players plus learning from his head coaching mistakes this year, get Jackson Arnold in the portal, and it will be possible.

[DEDawg]

It is indeed apparently a crap shoot for State because our administration has hired....... exactly ZERO up and coming G5 or FCS Head Coaches. Let me repeat that since you brought up "crap shoot". ZERO sitting G5 or FCS Head Coaches hired by State's Admin. Meanwhile, there are cases where "some" have moved up and been successful in the SEC. But let's keep rolling snake eyes hiring coordinators more often than rolling 7's. Mullen being the only 7 and he was trying to leave 5 years after getting here.
What point are you trying to make? The closest we got to do that was Napier and he sucks too. Our best coach ever was an OC at Florida. I don?t care enough to go gather the stats but I would bet the success/bust rate of hiring a P5 coordinator vs a G5 HC is pretty close which is exactly what Clark is saying. It?s a crapshoot

[CaptainObvious]

Hyperbole. The success and failures historically bare it out. P5 coordinators are just as, if not more successful than G5 HC.

You cannot prove that with regards to State. As I said State has never ever hired a sitting G5 or FCS Head Coach. So you only have other coordinators to measure against each other. And don't forget State also hired 3 assistant coaches who had not been coordinators. Bob Tyler, Rocky Felker and Sylvester Croom. Tyler is the only one who had any success of those 3 non-coordinator level coaches.

We know Mullen was our most successful and he came from a National Championship program. Lebby was a coordinator at 3 successful programs but none won a championship. So we have to "hope" he turns it around and we have to suffer at least 2 and maybe 3 mediocre seasons after suffering through all but 2 mediocre seasons since Mullen left. So why? Why must State always appear to be in a 2-3 year rebuild. Look at Sherrill's years, a good year followed by a bad year then 3 miserable years at the end. Why? Why State?

[SPMT]

LT was light years ahead of Cohen. Cohen was the worst AD since Dudy Noble, who with a group of delta alumni drove us off the tracks 80 years ago. Crazy how history repeats itself and here we all are now. We are our own worst enemies and always have been.

Is this true?

LT was abhorrently bad. Held us back for decades ?running in the black?.

From my view, Cohen destroyed the marketing and brand Byrne and Stricklin built.

[Coach34]

Cohen got us our only Natty. That alone makes him better than anything LT did. Shit- LT was forced against his will to hire Jackie and Stands. If LT had gotten his way- instead we would have had Bobby Wallace and Dewayne Reboul

[Really Clark?]

You cannot prove that with regards to State. As I said State has never ever hired a sitting G5 or FCS Head Coach. So you only have other coordinators to measure against each other. And don't forget State also hired 3 assistant coaches who had not been coordinators. Bob Tyler, Rocky Felker and Sylvester Croom. Tyler is the only one who had any success of those 3 non-coordinator level coaches.

We know Mullen was our most successful and he came from a National Championship program. Lebby was a coordinator at 3 successful programs but none won a championship. So we have to "hope" he turns it around and we have to suffer at least 2 and maybe 3 mediocre seasons after suffering through all but 2 mediocre seasons since Mullen left. So why? Why must State always appear to be in a 2-3 year rebuild. Look at Sherrill's years, a good year followed by a bad year then 3 miserable years at the end. Why? Why State?

Bob Tyler was our OC the year before in 1972 for Shira then he took over. Lot in the history of what should have been during his time.

Even you are going through our history of better coaches it's a crap shoot, Warmath was the line coach at Army before taking our job. McKeen was 2 years as HC of West Tenn Teachers College. Ballard and Jackie from TAM as HC. Darrel Royal was our backs coach then Edmonton Eskimos HC for 1 year. If you go way back Bierman was an assistant at Tulane before our job, left for Tulane HC then won 5 national titles at Minnesota.

It's a crap shoot even here.

[Coursesuper]

Is this true?

LT was abhorrently bad. Held us back for decades ?running in the black?.

From my view, Cohen destroyed the marketing and brand Byrne and Stricklin built.

We won the west, went to multiple cws and a final four with LT as AD. Larry just isn’t a good people person period. The department wasn’t bad off when he was moved out and Greg and Scott were able to move it forward from there. We are reaping the rewards of the Cohen tenure as AD.

[Leeshouldveflanked]

Cohen got us our only Natty. That alone makes him better than anything LT did. Shit- LT was forced against his will to hire Jackie and Stands. If LT had gotten his way- instead we would have had Bobby Wallace and Dewayne Reboul
As much money and resources we have put into baseball over the years we should have 5-10 Nattys.

[Coach34]

As much money and resources we have put into baseball over the years we should have 5-10 Nattys.

You wont get an argument out of me. Polk choked at least 2 away in 85 and 89. But other years we were an arm or a bat away. Polk remains the underachiever of all-time. He is the Marv Levy of college baseball

[TrapGame]

Cohen got us our only Natty. That alone makes him better than anything LT did. Shit- LT was forced against his will to hire Jackie and Stands. If LT had gotten his way- instead we would have had Bobby Wallace and Dewayne Reboul

That's cause Cohen only gave a shit about baseball. That m'fer was going to hire Joe Judge and only the NY Jets stopped it.

[Coach34]

That's cause Cohen only gave a shit about baseball. That m'fer was going to hire Joe Judge and only the NY Jets stopped it.

Well- let's examine that:

Former State player
Bill Belichek trained
ST guy. Handle ST teams as a HC like Jackie did and hire some good coordinators.

I would have much preferred this over JoVester

[TrapGame]

Well- let's examine that:

Former State player
Bill Belichek trained
ST guy. Handle ST teams as a HC like Jackie did and hire some good coordinators.

I would have much preferred this over JoVester

LOL! And he ****ing BOMBED in the pros. That would have been an Arnett level hire. Bellichek had Brady.

[Coach34]

LOL! And he ****ing BOMBED in the pros. That would have been an Arnett level hire. Bellichek had Brady.

Dabol who was the Natty OC for Saban just like Mullen was for Urban is bombing there too. Maybe its the organization?

He coudnt have possibly done worse than Jovester with that 2018 team

[Coursesuper]

Cohen got us our only Natty. That alone makes him better than anything LT did. Shit- LT was forced against his will to hire Jackie and Stands. If LT had gotten his way- instead we would have had Bobby Wallace and Dewayne Reboul

You are not wrong, but I will stand by the fact that JC is the worst since Dudy Noble. He did nothing to prepare for a future that everyone else knew was coming and left the department in a mess.

[EdwardDrayton]

You wont get an argument out of me. Polk choked at least 2 away in 85 and 89. But other years we were an arm or a bat away. Polk remains the underachiever of all-time. He is the Marv Levy of college baseball

I'll give you '89. But '85 with Morgan taking the shot off the leg against Texas and Ellena taking Thigpen deep to walk it off, well, that's just baseball. Can't hang that on RP.

[Coach34]

I'll give you '89. But '85 with Morgan taking the shot off the leg against Texas and Ellena taking Thigpen deep to walk it off, well, that's just baseball. Can't hang that on RP.

How about the lack of pitching depth that was needed in 85? That's on Polk

[the_real_MSU_is_us]

It is indeed apparently a crap shoot for State because our administration has hired....... exactly ZERO up and coming G5 or FCS Head Coaches. Let me repeat that since you brought up "crap shoot". ZERO sitting G5 or FCS Head Coaches hired by State's Admin. Meanwhile, there are cases where "some" have moved up and been successful in the SEC. But let's keep rolling snake eyes hiring coordinators more often than rolling 7's. Mullen being the only 7 and he was trying to leave 5 years after getting here.

State is not the only school we can look at to test the P5 coordinator vs G5 HC question. Zoom out:

Successful P5 coordinators include Mullen, Smart, Stoops, Dabo, Brent Key (over at GT), even position coaches like Beamer and Pittman have been OK. Failed P5 coordinators include JoMo, Arnett, Aranda, Muschamp.

Successful G5 HCs include Gus Malzahn, Huepel, Drinkowitz, Kleinman, not a whole lot else off the top of my head. Failed G5 HCs include McElwain, Morris, Harskin, Napier, Todd Herman, Butch Jones. A LOT of those names were 10-2 coaches at their G5 and considered VERY hot names.

All in all, hiring coaches is a crapshoot. YResume affects the odds of if it'll work out or not but at the end of the day the "best" hires are 50/50 if that.

[HoopsDawg]

How about the lack of pitching depth that was needed in 85? That's on Polk

If Polk would have cut players and recruited harder, he would have won 5 nattys.

[EdwardDrayton]

How about the lack of pitching depth that was needed in 85? That's on Polk

Yes, there's a little merit there Coach but that's nonetheless a hard take. Think RP deserves a better legacy in '85.

[CaptainObvious]

State is not the only school we can look at to test the P5 coordinator vs G5 HC question. Zoom out:

Successful P5 coordinators include Mullen, Smart, Stoops, Dabo, Brent Key (over at GT), even position coaches like Beamer and Pittman have been OK. Failed P5 coordinators include JoMo, Arnett, Aranda, Muschamp.

Successful G5 HCs include Gus Malzahn, Huepel, Drinkowitz, Kleinman, not a whole lot else off the top of my head. Failed G5 HCs include McElwain, Morris, Harskin, Napier, Todd Herman, Butch Jones. A LOT of those names were 10-2 coaches at their G5 and considered VERY hot names.

All in all, hiring coaches is a crapshoot. YResume affects the odds of if it'll work out or not but at the end of the day the "best" hires are 50/50 if that.

But State IS the only school that matters in our discussion about "how did WE get here?" And NOT ONCE has State EVER hired a G5 or FCS sitting Head Coach. WHY Not?

[Todd4State]

I'll give you '89. But '85 with Morgan taking the shot off the leg against Texas and Ellena taking Thigpen deep to walk it off, well, that's just baseball. Can't hang that on RP.

You absolutely can hang 85 on Polk. You can't leave an injured pitcher in. There's ZERO reason to do that. All you have to do is tell the umpire that your guy is hurt- and any umpire from Little League up would have agreed in this instance- and the next pitcher gets as much time as he wants to warm up. If Polk had done that in today's game it would have gone viral on social media with people concerned about Morgan's well being.

[Todd4State]

But State IS the only school that matters in our discussion about "how did WE get here?" And NOT ONCE has State EVER hired a G5 or FCS sitting Head Coach. WHY Not?

Yeah we did. Mike Leach.

[Todd4State]

State is not the only school we can look at to test the P5 coordinator vs G5 HC question. Zoom out:

Successful P5 coordinators include Mullen, Smart, Stoops, Dabo, Brent Key (over at GT), even position coaches like Beamer and Pittman have been OK. Failed P5 coordinators include JoMo, Arnett, Aranda, Muschamp.

Successful G5 HCs include Gus Malzahn, Huepel, Drinkowitz, Kleinman, not a whole lot else off the top of my head. Failed G5 HCs include McElwain, Morris, Harskin, Napier, Todd Herman, Butch Jones. A LOT of those names were 10-2 coaches at their G5 and considered VERY hot names.

All in all, hiring coaches is a crapshoot. YResume affects the odds of if it'll work out or not but at the end of the day the "best" hires are 50/50 if that.

History has shown that our best path is hiring a guy from a P4 conference with P4 experience. Jackie Sherrill and Mike Leach. Both won at least 9 games+ at MSU. And who knows what Leach would have done had he not passed away? Before that Emory Bellard was solid until his recruiting caught up to him. Between Bellard, Jackie, and Leach they have the majority of our major wins in football since 1980. Obviously, Dan had some as well. But since 1980 he is really the only coach with a non-P5 background that has worked out here- Felker, Croom, Moorhead, and Arnett were busts and Lebby is TBD. Out of that group how many big wins did they have? 1986 Tennessee? 1989-1990 USM? 2005 Florida? The 2007 season? 2019 Egg Bowl? That's really about it for that group.

[Todd4State]

That's cause Cohen only gave a shit about baseball. That m'fer was going to hire Joe Judge and only the NY Jets stopped it.

I don't think Judge would have worked out here. Unless he would have hired elite coordinators and recruiters.

I hope he eventually gets a job somewhere like South Alabama or UAB so he can learn the college game. I guess that's what he is trying to do at Ole Miss right now. Being under Saban was a positive. He likely learned a lot when he was the Giants head coach that could benefit him later. If he wants our job he is going to have to work his way back up the ladder.

[MoreCowbell]

An up and coming G5 coach with any prospects is not coming to State. We probably could have pulled a very good one when Mullen left because the roster and culture was already set. As it stands today we probably have the toughest job definitely in the SEC and probably in the Power 4. It would have to be an under the radar guy that has been looked over for other jobs.

[Todd4State]

An up and coming G5 coach with any prospects is not coming to State. We probably could have pulled a very good one when Mullen left because the roster and culture was already set. As it stands today we probably have the toughest job definitely in the SEC and probably in the Power 4. It would have to be an under the radar guy that has been looked over for other jobs.

Why not? Our job is certainly not any more difficult than Arkansas, Ole Miss, Kentucky, South Carolina or any of the academic schools like Vanderbilt and Northwestern.

We certainly could have pulled Barry Odom at the very least.

[Offshore Dawg]

For me when you're coaching falls apart, and you can't compete with buying players the results = cluster (17) !!

[TrapGame]

Why not? Our job is certainly not any more difficult than Arkansas, Ole Miss, Kentucky, South Carolina or any of the academic schools like Vanderbilt and Northwestern.

We certainly could have pulled Barry Odom at the very least.

We could have gotten Jason Candle too. That Toledo game was personal for him. You could tell.

[confucius say]

He can get to 6-6 by next year if he?s any good at recruiting and seeing the problems.

Our schedule next year is harder than this year. It's the same sec schedule except flip home and road. Our "winnable" games will be on the road (Florida, ark, Aggie, and Mizzou).

[confucius say]

Its recruiting people. Real quick analysis:

2020 recruiting class - the kids that could be 5th year seniors or covid seniors on this year's team we have:

Jaden Walley

2021 recruiting class -

Ty Cooper
Deonte Anderson
Antonio Harmon
Canon Boone
Albert Reese
John Lewis
Nic Mitchell
Corey Ellington

2022 recruiting class -

Trevion Williams
Kalvin Dinkins
Jackson Lahue
Javae Gilmore (had no idea he was on the team still)
Donterry Russell

2023 recruiting class

Isaac Smith
Brice Pollack
Chris Parson
Tab Hinton (4 star player?)
Kelley Jones
Seth Davis
Malik Ellis
Joseph Head
Zakari Tillman

That is four recruiting classes of eligible players that could theoretically have eligibility for this year at MSU.

A total of 23 players. That is not 'good attrition' that is terrible recruiting. About 95% of the players not here that could be here are either done with football or at some lower level of football.

Also, out of those 23 players I count less than 3 players that could start on a SEC team that goes 4-4 in the SEC and I think that is generous.

This is how you destroy a football program. 23 players left from 4 recruiting classes where we signed 97 kids. That is the answer. That is how we got so bad.

Wow. I did not realize it was that bad. My word.

[StarkVegasSteve]

Why not? Our job is certainly not any more difficult than Arkansas, Ole Miss, Kentucky, South Carolina or any of the academic schools like Vanderbilt and Northwestern.

We certainly could have pulled Barry Odom at the very least.

Barry wanted the job but we knew that Brendan Marrion would've stayed at UNLV and he is a MASSIVE reason Odom is successful at UNLV. When we realized Barry wasn't going to be able to bring Marrion we backed off.