Delta State Financial Troubles - Interesting Read...

[Count Istvan Teleky]

https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/Office%20of%20the%20President/Campus-Update-to-faculty-and-staff-re-fiscal-sustainability.pdf.pdf

I doubt anybody will want to read all fifteen pages of this, but three things stick out to me.

One - The President of Delta State. I think he is showing leadership. He's been on the job one year and is making difficult choices instead of kicking the can down the road. Budgeting for a surplus to establish a rainy day fund takes some balls, especially when people are getting laid off. Hope they don't give him a vote of no confidence

Two, the enrollment cliff mentioned in his opening remarks is real. It is going to be nationwide, and we have not seen its effects yet. It's been said that one college a week closes its doors now, and I suspect that will double in the years to come.

Three, academia is bloated. All those positions not filled and eliminated, and they are still able to function. If that doesn't speak to the administration being fat, then I don't know what does. Cushy jobs. Not just Delta State.

Bears watching as this takes place.

[viverlibre]

Two, the enrollment cliff mentioned in his opening remarks is real. It is going to be nationwide, and we have not seen its effects yet. It's been said that one college a week closes its doors now, and I suspect that will double in the years to come.



What year is the enrollment cliff beginning and what % will the decrease be?

[Count Istvan Teleky]

What year is the enrollment cliff beginning and what % will the decrease be?

... and the cliff results from the 2008 financial crisis when many young couples opted out of having children, given the state of the world and their own financial situation.

We should be seeing the first wave of it in high schools now but I don't know how to tease that out of the data.

[somebodyshotmypaw]

I haven't read the article yet, but I will. I agree about academia being bloated. There are too many do-nothing fat cats. Someone with a good business mind could easily slash 20% of the jobs at most universities. There are far too many employees who have idle time and don't show up every day to compete. And tenure and contracts are an issue to me. People need to show up every day to prove they deserve to be allowed to come back tomorrow. Contracts and tenure can screw that up.

[Cooterpoot]

The Okra are pickled?

[Pancho]

word

[redstickdawg]

I haven't read the article yet, but I will. I agree about academia being bloated. There are too many do-nothing fat cats. Someone with a good business mind could easily slash 20% of the jobs at most universities. There are far too many employees who have idle time and don't show up every day to compete. And tenure and contracts are an issue to me. People need to show up every day to prove they deserve to be allowed to come back tomorrow. Contracts and tenure can screw that up.

I live close to several LSU profs; neighbor left and returned from work everyday before I did when I was working. I'm now retired and I'd estimate he's away from home at most 30 hrs/week, he's a ball of fire compared to many that I see that work at LSU. If other Universities are similar they could cut staff by 30-50% and not miss a beat. Government jobs need a severe haircut, far too much waste and no productivity.

[Brobi-wan]

I think some of the TAs are making 40k a year plus. They do a lot of the teaching in labs and things like that. Prof just draws up the plan and the TA reads from the slide. Prof just hangs in office or sleeps if the lab is too early. It’s wild. They probably draw a ton of Gov funding and have to spend it to maintain the level they receive. Ends up in staff bloat.

[BeardoMSU]

It's definitely a problem hitting all of higher ed, especially the smaller schools. I've been fortunate (*knock on wood) that my small school has stayed ahead of things (i.e., reducing admin numbers and costs, dropping dead programs, etc.), while maintaining enrollment. We're primarily a business (and Sports Management) college with a great record of job placement, with kids learning actual skills and tools of the trade, so obviously that helps. Meanwhile, I'm the science prof who every student has to take to fulfill their STEM requirement, so I'm a happy camper.

I've said before in previous threads like this that the bloating of academia is mostly amongst administration and within the humanities departments. You're starting to see that realization across the schools that want to stay open and healthy...but it's taking others too long, and for many it'll be too late when they do.

[BeardoMSU]

I think some of the TAs are making 40k a year plus. They do a lot of the teaching in labs and things like that. Prof just draws up the plan and the TA reads from the slide. Prof just hangs in office or sleeps if the lab is too early. It’s wild. They probably draw a ton of Gov funding and have to spend it to maintain the level they receive. Ends up in staff bloat.
I feel like this type of characterization of academia is wildly popular, but not remotely significant as the norm.

I've literally never seen this at all the places I've worked. Sure, there are shitty and lazy professors out there (shitty and lazy people in every profession), but it's such a small percentage that it doesn't even track. Shitty student evals, poor pub/scholarly activity, hostility with colleagues, etc., would have you outta there quicker than hell. Obv there are exceptions, as with anything, but that's just not something that's tolerated.

And I've never seen or heard of a TA making 40k...Adjunct, sure, but that's a part time gig with pay dependent on the number of courses you teach.

[bobcat91]

We are already seeing the beginning of the cliff. 10 years ago, Mississippi K12 had 490 k plus students. Today it is 445k . Almost a 50k difference and it will get worse

[KOdawg1]

Delta State's problem was they sat around and did nothing until they absolutely had to. They knew they were screwed but just hoped it would get better. It didn't

[Pancho]

Folks can't afford to rear kids and pay 8% mortgage interest, higher costs for daily necessities............We all know why

[KentuckyDawg13]

Perception is reality, huh?

Unless you are a college professor/teacher/instructor, I'd keep your opinions of their job responsibilities to yourself.

Teaching at ALL levels is harder than most non-teachers realize.

Back to the article, it's all about supply/demand.

[Brobi-wan]

I feel like this type of characterization of academia is wildly popular, but not remotely significant as the norm.

I've literally never seen this at all the places I've worked. Sure, there are shitty and lazy professors out there (shitty and lazy people in every profession), but it's such a small percentage that it doesn't even track. Shitty student evals, poor pub/scholarly activity, hostility with colleagues, etc., would have you outta there quicker than hell. Obv there are exceptions, as with anything, but that's just not something that's tolerated.

And I've never seen or heard of a TA making 40k...Adjunct, sure, but that's a part time gig with pay dependent on the number of courses you teach.

That’s coming directly from people I know on campus. Covid changed a lot. All my teachers were basically still doing online only classes once I graduated in May of 21. I essentially had 2 solid years of just online courses and I think that changed some of the landscape on work ethics and convenience expectations in the workforce as a whole. Even from the business stand-point. I currently work from home and know a lot of other people who do the same. I think 2020 and the following years sped up a change that was already coming. There are absolutely some great teachers out there, but there’s also a lot of gatekeeping by people who work in academia about their colleagues who fail. Maybe people aren’t as dumb as the internet makes them seem. We will see in 20 years when Gen z hits their mid 30s and 40s

[BrunswickDawg]

That’s coming directly from people I know on campus. Covid changed a lot. All my teachers were basically still doing online only classes once I graduated in May of 21. I essentially had 2 solid years of just online courses and I think that changed some of the landscape on work ethics and convenience expectations in the workforce as a whole. Even from the business stand-point. I currently work from home and know a lot of other people who do the same. I think 2020 and the following years sped up a change that was already coming. There are absolutely some great teachers out there, but there’s also a lot of gatekeeping by people who work in academia about their colleagues who fail. Maybe people aren’t as dumb as the internet makes them seem. We will see in 20 years when Gen z hits their mid 30s and 40s

There are also whole programs that moved on-line and stayed on-line post COVID. Both my kids just completed Masters in Ed (one MSU, one here in GA) - neither stepped foot in a classroom for Grad school. It's mind boggling to me.
But, I look back at the classes I took in the 90s and think "I could have read a book, taken a test, and written a paper on my own." There were a couple of classes I only showed up for tests and got As and Bs in - so is an on-line class any different?

[R2Dawg]

The Okra are pickled?

Yep and the okra is fried.

[R2Dawg]

Perception is reality, huh?

Unless you are a college professor/teacher/instructor, I'd keep your opinions of their job responsibilities to yourself.

Teaching at ALL levels is harder than most non-teachers realize.

Back to the article, it's all about supply/demand.

Teaching can be demanding but we have too many teachers that don't teach and still get a paycheck. Also way too much fat in the education system everywhere, it is ridiculous. I'm not in it but my whole family has been. I know more dirt than most my wife is at board office and my brother works in admin in another system. The education system is broken.

[Pancho]

My daughter had several profs who did little other than spew leftist garble if and when they actually had live class. I figure all colleges are full of these types.

[DesotoDog1967]

My youngest son graduates high school Saturday and right after Memorial Day will start a computer coding program for a year. Paid by corporations like FEDEX, Renasant etc. they will help in job placement after that. 20 and no debt with skills sounds good to us. I saw Dr Phil (yeah Dr. Phil) talking about after the Baby Boomers go there will be 3.5 million blue collar jobs unfilled. Plumbers and electricians. People that make it work. Generation Z want none or that. I got my degree from night school at Union University. That one that is probably in a hole also. Delta does hit close to home as both my wife and daughter are primary ed grads from there

[Brobi-wan]

Some teachers genuinely work hard and some don’t. Now, if I tell you some people at Lowe’s work hard and some don’t you would agree with that. Shouldn’t be any different with teachers, but some people are very defensive over them. Yes they have a hard job. I completely agree, but we live in a free market. You choose your profession.

[Extendedcab]

The cost of college these days (and has been for 10+ years when my boys were at MSU) is an issue that is also IMHO driving attendance low. Look at the following cost breakdown for MSU Yearly Tuition for Fall & Spring Semesters.

In-State Tuition & Fees $9,815
Housing and Meal Plan* $12,293
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Total for In-State $22,108

Don't you think this is a wee bit out of the reach for the average household? It would be near impossible for a (full-time) student to be able to work their way through college - assuming a decent major (not underwater basketweaving). They would be forced to take out a student loan if mom and dad could not afford to send them.

Side Note: the cost of room is insane as they build these 5-star resort like dorms. Smith Hall and Suttle Hall were the dorms I stayed in as a student, but they have been torn down years ago in favor of these 5-star retreats!

Contrast with 1970s costs (from memory here, I forget exact amounts): $280 per semester for tuition, $380 per semester for room and meals around $1100 = $1760 per semester or $3,520 per year. Add in another $150 per semester for books and supplies and you get $3820 per year. This was doable even with a minimum wage job of $2.50 /hr.

College was supposed to be a place where you went to get an education, not to be pampered! Let's not even get started on how pampered the student athletes are these days compared to when I was in college (1976-1980).

[BeardoMSU]

Smith Hall and Suttle Hall were the dorms I stayed in as a student

I lived in Suttle for 2.5 years of undergrad! Top floor, RA suite.

I remember being fond of the tap water at Suttle, too...the rusty pipes gave it a nice minerally flavor, lol.

[Extendedcab]

I lived in Suttle for 2.5 years of undergrad! Top floor, RA suite.

I remember being fond of the tap water at Suttle, too...the rusty pipes gave it a nice minerally flavor, lol.

Were you there in 1977 when the freshmen (from the boomerang dorms - Smith, Hightower, Duggar and??) started a war with the upperclassmen in Suttle? Bottle rockets, cherry bombs, charcoal brackets being shot from a sling shot and other items were hurled back and forth. The campus police just sat on top of hernia hill and watched. They did not get involved. I think it lasted for a day or two - oh the times!!

[BeardoMSU]

Were you there in 1977 when the freshmen (from the boomerang dorms - Smith, Hightower, Duggar and??) started a war with the upperclassmen in Suttle? Bottle rockets, cherry bombs, charcoal brackets being shot from a sling shot and other items were hurled back and forth. The campus police just sat on top of hernia hill and watched. They did not get involved. I think it lasted for a day or two - oh the times!!

I was in Suttle starting the second semester of my freshman year (2004), so the pipes were a little rustier than they were back in '77 :)

[State82]

Were you there in 1977 when the freshmen (from the boomerang dorms - Smith, Hightower, Duggar and??) started a war with the upperclassmen in Suttle? Bottle rockets, cherry bombs, charcoal brackets being shot from a sling shot and other items were hurled back and forth. The campus police just sat on top of hernia hill and watched. They did not get involved. I think it lasted for a day or two - oh the times!!

I was in Duggar in 1977 but don't remember that. It was a few years ago however so that doesn't surprise me. Was that fourth dorm Critz?

[Johnson85]

https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/Office%20of%20the%20President/Campus-Update-to-faculty-and-staff-re-fiscal-sustainability.pdf.pdf

I doubt anybody will want to read all fifteen pages of this, but three things stick out to me.

One - The President of Delta State. I think he is showing leadership. He's been on the job one year and is making difficult choices instead of kicking the can down the road. Budgeting for a surplus to establish a rainy day fund takes some balls, especially when people are getting laid off. Hope they don't give him a vote of no confidence



I don't know how good the plan is, but it's encouraging that he even is willing to present a plan like this as a new president. Delta State has selective appeal and is definitely at risk going forward. Having questions about their sustainability isn't going to help, so cutting to get on sound financial footing now is a good idea. Also probably not a terrible deal for the people being let go. They're going to face a tough job market, but nothing like what it will probably look like in 5 years, when there will be five more years of closures and laid off workers to compete with.

[Interpolation_Dawg_EX]

The President of Delta State. I think he is showing leadership. He's been on the job one year and is making difficult choices instead of kicking the can down the road. Budgeting for a surplus to establish a rainy day fund takes some balls, especially when people are getting laid off. Hope they don't give him a vote of no confidence

It's a shame that we don't have someone running for President of the US that has leadership and will pass a common sense budget.

[AROB44]

Folks can't afford to rear kids and pay 8% mortgage interest, higher costs for daily necessities............We all know why

We do? Please enlighten me...

[Johnson85]

It's a shame that we don't have someone running for President of the US that has leadership and will pass a common sense budget.

I don't know if the DSU president will get fired. We pretty much know that if a president tried to be responsible first he'd probably be unsuccessful because too many people in the legislative branch take money from people who want irresponsible spending (or at least don't want the irresponsible spending benefiting them cut) and if he somehow managed to use his veto power to force a reasoanble budget, he'd get pilloried by the press and enough people would turn on him fast enough that he'd be a one term president.

Look how long Argentina had to be a basketcase before their politics would allow a sensible politician. Don't think we're there yet. Maybe if you could convince boomers that it was going to hit the fan before they finished bleeding youngsters dry with medicare and social security, you could get responsibility without some serious pain first.

[QuadrupleOption]

I think people also need to realize that a lot of college tuition hikes are the result of state and federal governments no longer subsidizing the cost of education.

When my parents were college-age (in the 60s), Mississippi fully funded JUCO tuition for every student. Going to Hinds Community College, for example, was free.

When I was starting out in the mid-90s, It was still cheap because the state funded a goodly portion of it. That ratio has dropped significantly over the years, going from 75% in the 90s to 25% today.

You want to know why students are being gouged now? That's it. If you want cheaper tuition you need to make sure the politicians are funding it.

[BeardoMSU]

Another thing that would obviously help higher ed, is investing at the juco level for vocational degrees and certificate options at the 4 year institutions. They do this in Europe, but our lack of it (or inconsistentcy) in the States is a travesty.

And again...reduce emphasis on the humanities. Humanities are OBV an important part of the collegiate experience (well rounded, etc. etc.), but too many degrees from those programs are dead ends with nothing but a mountain of debt as a consolation. Schools participating in that racket is inexcusable. Thankfully, many places are starting to address this, but it's gonna be a long road....

[viverlibre]

but too many degrees from those programs are dead ends with nothing but a mountain of debt as a consolation. Schools participating in that racket is inexcusable. Thankfully, many places are starting to address this, but it's gonna be a long road....

The entire student loan process needs to be revamped.

1. Limit loans to say 1/4-1/2 the tuition/fees of an in state pubic school and/or tie loan amounts to the average earnings of the major. Someone majoring in Civil Engineering would be able to get more loans than some majoring in education.
2. The federal gub'mint needs to get out of the business of backing the loans. Make the loans bankrupt-able.
3. Neither of the above will ever happen, but it is what is needed.

[gtowndawg]

This is one reason I don't much stock anymore into someone being a college athlete. I know for a fact there are many small colleges that will put you on a JV baseball or basketball team if you pay full tuition (desperate for money). It's literally just pay for play. When I grew up the best players, and only the best, moved on to play college, including small college ball. Now there are kids playing "college" that barely made their high school team and rarely played.

[Johnson85]

I think people also need to realize that a lot of college tuition hikes are the result of state and federal governments no longer subsidizing the cost of education.

When my parents were college-age (in the 60s), Mississippi fully funded JUCO tuition for every student. Going to Hinds Community College, for example, was free.

When I was starting out in the mid-90s, It was still cheap because the state funded a goodly portion of it. That ratio has dropped significantly over the years, going from 75% in the 90s to 25% today.

You want to know why students are being gouged now? That's it. If you want cheaper tuition you need to make sure the politicians are funding it.

Really don't need to further subsidize it though. The people that should be at college generally are going to be well off. If there are particular professions we need to encourage, we can give grants for each number of years worked. So for teachers, maybe the first 10 years you get supplemental pay equal to what it would take to pay off state tuition plus a reasonable interest rate over 10 years. Between social security, medicare, and subsidized student loans and loan forgiveness, we send way too much money to affluent people on the backs of the non-affluent.

But if you stop paying 25% for a lot of students that shouldn't be there, and stop the arms race on amenities by increasing loan money available to pay for it, you'd have enough money to cover much more of the cost for the students that are there.

[BrunswickDawg]

Really don't need to further subsidize it though. The people that should be at college generally are going to be well off. If there are particular professions we need to encourage, we can give grants for each number of years worked. So for teachers, maybe the first 10 years you get supplemental pay equal to what it would take to pay off state tuition plus a reasonable interest rate over 10 years. Between social security, medicare, and subsidized student loans and loan forgiveness, we send way too much money to affluent people on the backs of the non-affluent.

But if you stop paying 25% for a lot of students that shouldn't be there, and stop the arms race on amenities by increasing loan money available to pay for it, you'd have enough money to cover much more of the cost for the students that are there.

I'll never, ever understand the position that education at any level shouldn't be fully funded in a way that makes it free for all. Doesn't matter if it is a trade school or a PhD. Doesn't matter if you have no money or are the richest family in the country. The benefits of educating our society as whole far outweigh the negatives. We are the richest country in the world and work continually to keep our population fat, drunk, and stupid.

[QuadrupleOption]

Really don't need to further subsidize it though. The people that should be at college generally are going to be well off. If there are particular professions we need to encourage, we can give grants for each number of years worked. So for teachers, maybe the first 10 years you get supplemental pay equal to what it would take to pay off state tuition plus a reasonable interest rate over 10 years. Between social security, medicare, and subsidized student loans and loan forgiveness, we send way too much money to affluent people on the backs of the non-affluent.

But if you stop paying 25% for a lot of students that shouldn't be there, and stop the arms race on amenities by increasing loan money available to pay for it, you'd have enough money to cover much more of the cost for the students that are there.

I think that subsidizing education is the best thing the state government can do for its citizens. And failing to do so actually punishes the poorest kids in our state more than the wealthiest. Even Federal Aid grants don't cover nearly enough and poor kids have to get up to their eyeballs in debt to attend and graduate college.

I guess I don't really understand what you are saying: "Between social security, medicare, and subsidized student loans and loan forgiveness, we send way too much money to affluent people on the backs of the non-affluent." All of these programs are supposed to help non-affluent people maintain a decent standard of living, and social security pays out to a scale of what you put in over your working career. If anything it's the reverse - the wealthiest pay more in taxes that go in part to support the poorest.

Student loans are predatory. I don't think that we should bail out people who took them on, but they are structured more like the rip-off loans you'd see from department stores back in the day vs. an actual bank loan of X years. I have friends who have been making payments for 20+ years and still owe money. That's like a credit card, not a car loan, and the structure of these loans need to be reworked.

I'd like for MSU to explore the feasibility of using the endowment to waive tuition costs for incoming students (based solely on economic need and NOTHING ELSE) to help offset the mindset of our Legislature and Governor who treat every expenditure like it was endorsed by Satan himself.