Throw hard. Get hurt.

[msstate7]

https://i.postimg.cc/zD0HSryx/IMG-4888.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

^^^ fastest 4-seam fastballs in mlb last year. Stolen from codify baseball.

[Commercecomet24]

Human body wasn't meant to throw at those velos. Dr Andrews has said 92mph is max after that you're on borrowed time for an injury accept for a couple freaks of nature like Ryan.

[Bdawg]

People need to go back to learning how to pitch instead of just trying to blow it by you. Would love to see another Greg Maddux type again, although I rarely watch mlb. He may be out there and I just don’t know it

[Commercecomet24]

People need to go back to learning how to pitch instead of just trying to blow it by you. Would love to see another Greg Maddox type again, although I rarely watch mlb. He may be out there and I just don’t know it

100%! I loved watching the guys like Maddux wirk. Was artistry! Watching guys just try to throw as hard as they can is almost boring compared to watching guys like Maddux. You got parents having kids velo trading at 7 and 8 now. Ridiculous! Learn to pitch! When I was coaching the first thing I taught was fastball command. In out up down and locate. AmaIng a guy like Maddux could carve lineups up throwing his 89-91 fastball 80% of the time

[Bdawg]

100%! I loved watching the guys like Maddux wirk. Was artistry! Watching guys just try to throw as hard as they can is almost boring compared to watching guys like Maddux. You got parents having kids velo trading at 7 and 8 now. Ridiculous! Learn to pitch! When I was coaching the first thing I taught was fastball command. In out up down and locate. AmaIng a guy like Maddux could carve lineups up throwing his 89-91 fastball 80% of the time

Located fastball with movement can be deadly, especially when you can cut and run it.

[Commercecomet24]

Located fastball with movement can be deadly, especially when you can cut and run it.

Yep 100%. I miss watching the guys like Maddux. Heck Jamie Moyer couldn't break 85 but that guy could pitch

[msstate7]

While exemplary control can absolutely be effective, 97 will get you drafted every time. Bc of this, kids will continue to press to get more velocity

[Commercecomet24]

While exemplary control can absolutely be effective, 97 will get you drafted every time. Bc of this, kids will continue to press to get more velocity

And this is a fact as well. You will at some point face the knife though.

[sandjunky]

https://i.postimg.cc/zD0HSryx/IMG-4888.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

^^^ fastest 4-seam fastballs in mlb last year. Stolen from codify baseball.

I think that is part of it but also the push for HB causes you the need to grip the ball tighter for spin and either over supinate or pronate to get the movement you want - this along with high intent throws over and over bring you to the brink

[Commercecomet24]

I think that is part of it but also the push for HB causes you the need to grip the ball tighter for spin and either over supinate or pronate to get the movement you want - this along with high intent throws over and over bring you to the brink

Yeah that's a great point. My youngest son is the pitching director at a baseball training facility and we talk about this a lot.

[MaroonFlounder]

Tim Wakefield. May he rest in peace.

[Tbonewannabe]

I read something on Maddux. Apparently, he threw hard enough to get drafted then basically backed off once he got in the minors. He worked on control and movement which is what got hitters out. He could throw 95 but lost movement and some control.

[Commercecomet24]

I read something on Maddux. Apparently, he threw hard enough to get drafted then basically backed off once he got in the minors. He worked on control and movement which is what got hitters out. He could throw 95 but lost movement and some control.

Yeah early on with cubs he was 92-93 pretty consistently but he sacrificed velo for movement and location. The professor!

[magrooder]

Maddox was also the smartest guy on the field, too.

[Todd4State]

I read something on Maddux. Apparently, he threw hard enough to get drafted then basically backed off once he got in the minors. He worked on control and movement which is what got hitters out. He could throw 95 but lost movement and some control.

He was actually pretty wild when he first came up in 1986. I think he just evolved as a pitcher.

[Todd4State]

Yeah that's a great point. My youngest son is the pitching director at a baseball training facility and we talk about this a lot.

I heard about this bracing procedure that Spencer Strider is going to have to have done so that he can try to come back sooner.

Kind of makes me wonder as a medical person- maybe come up with something like that as an implant for the UCL? Because Dr. Andrew's research shows that the ligament loses it's structure once you throw something over 80 MPH and in this era that's lower than your standard senior high school pitcher. I mean- we can implant boobs into women why can't we implant something like a brace to support the UCL so that it can withstand forces that are generated up to 30 MPH greater (which would be 110 MPH) than the UCL ligament can normally withstand?

The thing is you can't really strengthen ligaments like you can a muscle. And I think that's part of the problem. I can strengthen my core, legs, arm, and do all kinds of yoga and pilates and get as flexible as a circus performer and have flawless mechanics like Nolan Ryan but the UCL is still only going to withstand what it can withstand structurally.

So IMO the real solution here is going to be to find something essentially artificial which the baseball purists are going to love**. But just because you get an implant just like fake boobs isn't going to make you a supermodel getting a Todd4John implant is going to make you a MLB ace. You're still going to have to learn how to command pitches and learn how to pitch. It's just going to be a lot more safe.

[Commercecomet24]

I heard about this bracing procedure that Spencer Strider is going to have to have done so that he can try to come back sooner.

Kind of makes me wonder as a medical person- maybe come up with something like that as an implant for the UCL? Because Dr. Andrew's research shows that the ligament loses it's structure once you throw something over 80 MPH and in this era that's lower than your standard senior high school pitcher. I mean- we can implant boobs into women why can't we implant something like a brace to support the UCL so that it can withstand forces that are generated up to 30 MPH greater (which would be 110 MPH) than the UCL ligament can normally withstand?

The thing is you can't really strengthen ligaments like you can a muscle. And I think that's part of the problem. I can strengthen my core, legs, arm, and do all kinds of yoga and pilates and get as flexible as a circus performer and have flawless mechanics like Nolan Ryan but the UCL is still only going to withstand what it can withstand structurally.

So IMO the real solution here is going to be to find something essentially artificial which the baseball purists are going to love**. But just because you get an implant just like fake boobs isn't going to make you a supermodel getting a Todd4John implant is going to make you a MLB ace. You're still going to have to learn how to command pitches and learn how to pitch. It's just going to be a lot more safe.

Interesting thought. The guy that owns the training facility where my son works is a big time into studying how to make pitchers arms stronger and avoid surgery. He was a big time prospect but shredded his labrum so he's into keeping pitchers healthy. I'll ask him if he's heard of anything coming like you just mentioned. He'll know for sure

[War Machine Dawg]

Velocity is like 5-10% of the problem. It's a convenient scapegoat to blame because no one wants to talk about the biggest issues, namely overuse as kids, early specialization, travel ball and playing year round, pitch counts, trainers not knowing how to condition arms for loads & durability. Nolan Ryan threw harder than anyone in the history of the game and never had arm issues. Bob Gibson threw as hard or harder by all accounts. Ditto Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Curt Schilling. Craig Kimbrel hasn't needed TJ surgery. Billy Wagner pitched a decade before needing it.

By the time a guy gets to the majors now, he's thrown as many or more pitches as the 15 year veteran pitchers of the 90s. And almost all of those pitches are being thrown at max effort in part because of pitch counts. What's the incentive for a pitcher to learn how to pace himself if he knows he's getting pulled after 100 pitches? None, he's going to throw every pitch like it might be his last.

I heard Tom Glavine tell a story about getting a sore elbow when he was in the minors. Said the trainer came in and told him they're playing long toss. Glavine was skeptical about it because his elbow was sore but went along with it. So they did long toss for a couple of weeks, but nothing on the mound. They put him back on the mound and he was pain free, never had the issue again. He just wasn't used to throwing so much. Once they did the long toss and got his elbow used to the load, he was fine. Now guys get completely shut down if they feel anything instead of trying to figure out if it's a conditioning issue.

Early specialization is another problem. Playing different sports strengthens different muscle groups. But now kids are told they have to pick one sport of they want to have a chance to go pro and end up playing maybe one other sport, if any. They don't get the benefits of playing multiple sports the way previous generations of pitchers did.

Again, not saying the emphasis on velocity isn't an issue. It's just not the biggest issue. And there's no easy fix for any of it, because the incentive structures aren't changing. There's a whole ecosystem around travel ball, camps, personal pitching coaches, etc that have a lot to lose if it ever got looked at more closely.

[SPMT]

I heard about this bracing procedure that Spencer Strider is going to have to have done so that he can try to come back sooner.

Kind of makes me wonder as a medical person- maybe come up with something like that as an implant for the UCL? Because Dr. Andrew's research shows that the ligament loses it's structure once you throw something over 80 MPH and in this era that's lower than your standard senior high school pitcher. I mean- we can implant boobs into women why can't we implant something like a brace to support the UCL so that it can withstand forces that are generated up to 30 MPH greater (which would be 110 MPH) than the UCL ligament can normally withstand?

The thing is you can't really strengthen ligaments like you can a muscle. And I think that's part of the problem. I can strengthen my core, legs, arm, and do all kinds of yoga and pilates and get as flexible as a circus performer and have flawless mechanics like Nolan Ryan but the UCL is still only going to withstand what it can withstand structurally.

So IMO the real solution here is going to be to find something essentially artificial which the baseball purists are going to love**. But just because you get an implant just like fake boobs isn't going to make you a supermodel getting a Todd4John implant is going to make you a MLB ace. You're still going to have to learn how to command pitches and learn how to pitch. It's just going to be a lot more safe.

Just like steroids didn?t. Those guys should be in the hall.

[Todd4State]

Interesting thought. The guy that owns the training facility where my son works is a big time into studying how to make pitchers arms stronger and avoid surgery. He was a big time prospect but shredded his labrum so he's into keeping pitchers healthy. I'll ask him if he's heard of anything coming like you just mentioned. He'll know for sure

You would probably have to brace both sides of the elbow to avoid stress to the other (radial) side and imbalance. I'd be interested to see if there was a lot of extra stress on the radial head as well. Might have to line that like a knee replacement.

I'm just saying I met Dr. Andrew's once and a made a 110 on my gross anatomy final. LOL.

Let me know if he knows anything because I'd be very interested to know.

[Todd4State]

Velocity is like 5-10% of the problem. It's a convenient scapegoat to blame because no one wants to talk about the biggest issues, namely overuse as kids, early specialization, travel ball and playing year round, pitch counts, trainers not knowing how to condition arms for loads & durability. Nolan Ryan threw harder than anyone in the history of the game and never had arm issues. Bob Gibson threw as hard or harder by all accounts. Ditto Tom Seaver, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, and Curt Schilling. Craig Kimbrel hasn't needed TJ surgery. Billy Wagner pitched a decade before needing it.

By the time a guy gets to the majors now, he's thrown as many or more pitches as the 15 year veteran pitchers of the 90s. And almost all of those pitches are being thrown at max effort in part because of pitch counts. What's the incentive for a pitcher to learn how to pace himself if he knows he's getting pulled after 100 pitches? None, he's going to throw every pitch like it might be his last.

I heard Tom Glavine tell a story about getting a sore elbow when he was in the minors. Said the trainer came in and told him they're playing long toss. Glavine was skeptical about it because his elbow was sore but went along with it. So they did long toss for a couple of weeks, but nothing on the mound. They put him back on the mound and he was pain free, never had the issue again. He just wasn't used to throwing so much. Once they did the long toss and got his elbow used to the load, he was fine. Now guys get completely shut down if they feel anything instead of trying to figure out if it's a conditioning issue.

Early specialization is another problem. Playing different sports strengthens different muscle groups. But now kids are told they have to pick one sport of they want to have a chance to go pro and end up playing maybe one other sport, if any. They don't get the benefits of playing multiple sports the way previous generations of pitchers did.

Again, not saying the emphasis on velocity isn't an issue. It's just not the biggest issue. And there's no easy fix for any of it, because the incentive structures aren't changing. There's a whole ecosystem around travel ball, camps, personal pitching coaches, etc that have a lot to lose if it ever got looked at more closely.

Those guys weren't throwing nearly as hard as they are now. It is rumored that Ryan tore his UCL during his career but it was at the end.

[Todd4State]

Just like steroids didn?t. Those guys should be in the hall.

100% agree. Don't get me on that soapbox.