Cws

[Todd4State]

I don't consider being a 2-3 seed in a regional to be "high level". That should be a minimal expectation damn near every season. "High level" IMO is hosting regionals and being in the national seed discussion. It's winning 20+ games in the sec and being in contention for the conf title in May.

Fixing the pitching alone gets us back to expectations. Fixing the hitting and the pitching gets us to a "high level".

Well, I wonder how UCLA, Cal State-Fullerton, and Texas have won NC's then? You absolutely CAN get to a high level on pitching alone. You can not get there on offense alone- which is what this thread was about originally.

[Todd4State]

Jeren Kendall of vandy slashed .291/.403/.558 with 16 2B, 6 3B, 8 HR, 39 RBI, and 18 SBs. Oh yeah and he hit a walk off HR in a park that's so difficult to hit HRs in, that we decided to spend our whole season not hitting HRs so we are better prepared for not hitting HRs in the CWS (assuming we manage to get there).

Will toffey for vandy was is also a freshman. Slashed .296/.377/.424, 4HRs and 46 RBIs.

Bryan Reynolds and ro Coleman were productive sophomores that started most of their games. So among the 9 players with over 100 ABs, vandy had 4 juniors, 3 sophs, and 2 freshman. That's the kinda class balance you want in a lineup IMO. That way you are more reloading than rebuilding. There will probably be 1-3 current sophs and 1-3 current freshmen that will be ready to take on a larger role next year, but they have 5 guys guaranteed to return that have lots of experience and success to build their lineup around.

You found the anomaly- with neither player hitting over .300 mind you. And Kendall was a top 100 draft prospect last year and happens to have a father and grandfather that played MLB baseball.

You want as few freshmen as possible- because you can not count on them. It's essentially the same as having a team with a bunch of freshmen in SEC football.

[Todd4State]

We have the support to build a sustainable program. Basically the equivalent of football powers putting 80-100K in the seats every Saturday.

And I'm not putting us the category with those programs, I'm saying given our resources and support, we shouldn't be that far away from those programs. This is baseball, not football or even basketball, this is baseball.

Reality is we aren't that far away from those programs. Fix the bullpen and we are right back in the middle with them. Yes, even with our offense.

[I seen it dawg]

1st pick in the draft bunting in the first. Total horseshit.

[I seen it dawg]

Weil is so ****ing shitty. Softball God in a few years.

[I seen it dawg]

Rhett whiseman is a gamer. Pay attention Bulldog players.

[dawgs]

You found the anomaly- with neither player hitting over .300 mind you. And Kendall was a top 100 draft prospect last year and happens to have a father and grandfather that played MLB baseball.

You want as few freshmen as possible- because you can not count on them. It's essentially the same as having a team with a bunch of freshmen in SEC football.

hitting .300 doesn't tell you everything. That's why I included slash lines and their counting numbers. Oh and they both hit .291 or better, basically a few bloop singles from .300. But nice try to downplay their stats to support your position that good teams don't have to rely on freshmen.

As for Kendall being a top 100 draft talent last year, that's the point. We gotta get a few of those guys on campus from time to time. Hell, Will Clark was a decently high draft pick out of HS but still came to school. If we can't figure out how to do it, then maybe we are destined to be also-rans while the vandy's of college baseball rule the game and consistently get good players to wait on MLB.

[Todd4State]

hitting .300 doesn't tell you everything. That's why I included slash lines and their counting numbers. Oh and they both hit .291 or better, basically a few bloop singles from .300. But nice try to downplay their stats to support your position that good teams don't have to rely on freshmen.

As for Kendall being a top 100 draft talent last year, that's the point. We gotta get a few of those guys on campus from time to time. Hell, Will Clark was a decently high draft pick out of HS but still came to school. If we can't figure out how to do it, then maybe we are destined to be also-rans while the vandy's of college baseball rule the game and consistently get good players to wait on MLB.

Again, you found the anomaly. When we had Clark and Palmeiro, that was also an anomaly.

And to say that Vanderbilt is "relying" on them is a stretch at best when they have how many first round picks this year?

[dawgs]

Again, you found the anomaly. When we had Clark and Palmeiro, that was also an anomaly.

And to say that Vanderbilt is "relying" on them is a stretch at best when they have how many first round picks this year?

sure seemed like kendall played a pretty huge role when he hit a walk off HR in the CWS. and look at his stat line. it's pretty awesome.

looking at virginia...
their top 2 regular hitters by average were sophs. but their 3rd was a freshmen, pavin smith, that slashed .309/.374/.463. they also start another freshmen that wasn't as strong of a hitter. virginia only had 3 guys play in all 65 games, 2 of them were freshmen.

look at florida...
jj schwarz slashed .332/.398/.632 with 18 HRs and 73 RBIs and played the most demanding position on the field. dalton guthrie slashed .287/.363/.365. mike rivera slashed .271/.337/.369. and they started 70, 69, and 65 games respectively.

both virginia and florida have several core players from each class. a couple of freshmen, sophs, juniors, and a senior or 2. that's what you need to be consistent and never go through a lull.

so tell me some more about how vandy is the anomaly when it comes to getting value out of freshmen?

[Todd4State]

sure seemed like kendall played a pretty huge role when he hit a walk off HR in the CWS. and look at his stat line. it's pretty awesome.

looking at virginia...
their top 2 regular hitters by average were sophs. but their 3rd was a freshmen, pavin smith, that slashed .309/.374/.463. they also start another freshmen that wasn't as strong of a hitter. virginia only had 3 guys play in all 65 games, 2 of them were freshmen.

look at florida...
jj schwarz slashed .332/.398/.632 with 18 HRs and 73 RBIs and played the most demanding position on the field. dalton guthrie slashed .287/.363/.365. mike rivera slashed .271/.337/.369. and they started 70, 69, and 65 games respectively.

both virginia and florida have several core players from each class. a couple of freshmen, sophs, juniors, and a senior or 2. that's what you need to be consistent and never go through a lull.

so tell me some more about how vandy is the anomaly when it comes to getting value out of freshmen?

Kendall having ONE big moment doesn't make him any more of an impact player on the entire season than anyone else. That would be like me saying a freshman pinch hitter was an impact player for having hitting a walk-off home run. Who had more of an impact on their team over the course of the entire year? Kendall or Dansby Swanson, Carson Fulmer, etc.

So, you've cross referenced the TOP teams in the country and on every single team- you have managed to find TWO freshman that is even hitting over .300. In other words TWO players who hit better than Gavin Collins did as a freshman for us.

Basically you're touting guys that had seasons comparable to Wes Rea- you know the guy everyone bitches about- and claiming that's now all of a sudden "impact". All the while ignoring the fact that it's still the upperclassmen that are carrying the load for the most part while the freshmen are patching holes. Guthrie and Rivera had the 8th and 9th highest averages on their team among regulars- making them essentially some of the worst hitters in their lineup. Kendall had the eighth best average on Vanderbilt's team.

"Impact" to me means that you are hitting over .300 with at least 10 home run if you are a freshman power hitter or .300 with at least 20 SB if you are a speed guy. All you're doing is listing guys that started games as a freshman and calling that "impact"- when in reality you've found one-two players that fits the criteria and neither one is on the same team. Based on what you're doing, I could argue that Ryan Gridley was an impact player for us this past season.

[KB21]

Look no farther than the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes that Vanderbilt had to see what their 2014 and 2015 runs in Omaha are built upon. In both years, Vanderbilt had the #1 rated recruiting class in the country according to Collegiate Baseball. These two classes produced: Vince Conde, John Norwood, Tyler Beede, Adam Ravenelle, Phillip Pfiefer, Jared Miller, Zander Weil, Walker Beuhler, Carson Fulmer, Dansby Swanson, Rhett Wiseman, Tyler Fergueson, and Tyler Campbell.

They have been very much junior heavy with guys that have been in their program for 2+ years over the past 2 years.

This year, Mississippi State had some JUCO guys come in, but they were largely sophomore dominated:

Jacob Robson = SO
Cody Brown = SO
Gavin Collins = SO
Reid Humphreys = SO
Ryan Gridley = FR
Austin Sexton = SO
Vance Tatum = SO

Wes Rea was the only senior who got a high percentage of at bats that was here for the previous 4 seasons. Seth Heck and Jake Vickerson were JUCO transfers in their second years. John Holland was a JUCO transfer in his 1st year on campus.

We will have a junior dominated team in 2016 and will lose a lot of those juniors to the draft. The freshman class this year was thin on hitters outside of Ryan Gridley and Cole Gordon. This was a JUCO heavy class, and that class will probably hurt us in 2017.

[Todd4State]

Look no farther than the 2011 and 2012 recruiting classes that Vanderbilt had to see what their 2014 and 2015 runs in Omaha are built upon. In both years, Vanderbilt had the #1 rated recruiting class in the country according to Collegiate Baseball. These two classes produced: Vince Conde, John Norwood, Tyler Beede, Adam Ravenelle, Phillip Pfiefer, Jared Miller, Zander Weil, Walker Beuhler, Carson Fulmer, Dansby Swanson, Rhett Wiseman, Tyler Fergueson, and Tyler Campbell.

They have been very much junior heavy with guys that have been in their program for 2+ years over the past 2 years.

This year, Mississippi State had some JUCO guys come in, but they were largely sophomore dominated:

Jacob Robson = SO
Cody Brown = SO
Gavin Collins = SO
Reid Humphreys = SO
Ryan Gridley = FR
Austin Sexton = SO
Vance Tatum = SO

Wes Rea was the only senior who got a high percentage of at bats that was here for the previous 4 seasons. Seth Heck and Jake Vickerson were JUCO transfers in their second years. John Holland was a JUCO transfer in his 1st year on campus.

We will have a junior dominated team in 2016 and will lose a lot of those juniors to the draft. The freshman class this year was thin on hitters outside of Ryan Gridley and Cole Gordon. This was a JUCO heavy class, and that class will probably hurt us in 2017.

I share the exact same fear. We're going to lose probably our entire rotation, closer and one of our top relief guys, catcher, at least a couple of infielders, and at least one OF who happened to be our best hitter this year.

It's not so much the lack of impact freshmen that hurts us as much as it is guys not being productive as sophomores.

[KB21]

I share the exact same fear. We're going to lose probably our entire rotation, closer and one of our top relief guys, catcher, at least a couple of infielders, and at least one OF who happened to be our best hitter this year.

It's not so much the lack of impact freshmen that hurts us as much as it is guys not being productive as sophomores.

Yeah. The JUCOs from the 16 man signing class of 2014:

Daniel Brown, LHP, JR
Matt Spruill, 3B, SR
Luke Reynolds, 3B, JR
John Holland, 2B, SR
Michael Smith, OF, SR
Logan Elliot, RHP, JR
Josh Lovelady, C, SR
Cole Barlow, RHP, ?? (pitching for Lima Locos this summer)
Trent Waddell, LHP, SR

Of these, the only true impact bats are Reynolds and Holland. Daniel Brown may be a starter this year in the rotation. Outside of those, and Lovelady as a reserve catcher, the JUCOs from this class simply did not produce.

[dawgs]

Kendall having ONE big moment doesn't make him any more of an impact player on the entire season than anyone else. That would be like me saying a freshman pinch hitter was an impact player for having hitting a walk-off home run. Who had more of an impact on their team over the course of the entire year? Kendall or Dansby Swanson, Carson Fulmer, etc.

So, you've cross referenced the TOP teams in the country and on every single team- you have managed to find TWO freshman that is even hitting over .300. In other words TWO players who hit better than Gavin Collins did as a freshman for us.

Basically you're touting guys that had seasons comparable to Wes Rea- you know the guy everyone bitches about- and claiming that's now all of a sudden "impact". All the while ignoring the fact that it's still the upperclassmen that are carrying the load for the most part while the freshmen are patching holes. Guthrie and Rivera had the 8th and 9th highest averages on their team among regulars- making them essentially some of the worst hitters in their lineup. Kendall had the eighth best average on Vanderbilt's team.

"Impact" to me means that you are hitting over .300 with at least 10 home run if you are a freshman power hitter or .300 with at least 20 SB if you are a speed guy. All you're doing is listing guys that started games as a freshman and calling that "impact"- when in reality you've found one-two players that fits the criteria and neither one is on the same team. Based on what you're doing, I could argue that Ryan Gridley was an impact player for us this past season.

Geez I guess .291 with 8 HRs and 18 SBs just misses everyone of your arbitrary cutoffs. Those are basically Wes Rea numbers there.

And of course I'm looking at top teams. Why would I go dig thru .500 teams to prove my point that good teams usually have a couple of freshmen that play big roles and are productive enough to be positive contributors on good teams?

[dawgs]

Yeah. The JUCOs from the 16 man signing class of 2014:

Daniel Brown, LHP, JR
Matt Spruill, 3B, SR
Luke Reynolds, 3B, JR
John Holland, 2B, SR
Michael Smith, OF, SR
Logan Elliot, RHP, JR
Josh Lovelady, C, SR
Cole Barlow, RHP, ?? (pitching for Lima Locos this summer)
Trent Waddell, LHP, SR

Of these, the only true impact bats are Reynolds and Holland. Daniel Brown may be a starter this year in the rotation. Outside of those, and Lovelady as a reserve catcher, the JUCOs from this class simply did not produce.

Jackie needs to have a discussion with Cohen about the perils of heavy juco recruiting. We know how it plays out when you rely on a disappointing group of jucos. When a freshmen struggles, he's go several years to right the ship. When a juco struggles, he's already out of time.

[Todd4State]

Geez I guess .291 with 8 HRs and 18 SBs just misses everyone of your arbitrary cutoffs. Those are basically Wes Rea numbers there.

And of course I'm looking at top teams. Why would I go dig thru .500 teams to prove my point that good teams usually have a couple of freshmen that play big roles and are productive enough to be positive contributors on good teams?

Even if you include Kendall, that's only three freshmen- and it still doesn't change the fact that he is near the bottom of his team in batting average.

And it also doesn't change the fact of the matter that those teams are carried by experienced players- not their freshmen.

[msstate7]

Back to the thread title... Has there ever been a title matchup with worse uniforms? Geez these teams look terrible

[dawgs]

Even if you include Kendall, that's only three freshmen- and it still doesn't change the fact that he is near the bottom of his team in batting average.

And it also doesn't change the fact of the matter that those teams are carried by experienced players- not their freshmen.

When I said good teams have freshmen they rely on, or whatever exactly I said that you latched on to has have been proven completely wrong on over and over. I clearly and blatantly obviously didn't mean that the freshmen would be doing the job along without help from sophs, juniors, and seniors. But thanks for taking a comment, stretching it far beyond any reasonable context and acting like I said we should have freshmen hitting like mike trout and Bryce Harper. That was never what I said or intended to say. But you have your agenda, and I'll be damned if you aren't going to keep throwing shit against the wall u til you find something to stick.

[Smitty]

When I said good teams have freshmen they rely on, or whatever exactly I said that you latched on to as have been proven completely wrong on over and over, I didn't mean that the freshmen would be doing the job along without help from sophs, juniors, and seniors. But thanks for taking a comment, stretching it far beyond any reasonable context and acting like I said we should have freshmen hitting like mike trout and Bryce Harper. That was never what I said or intended to say. But you have your agenda, and I'll be damned if you aren't going to keep throwing shit against the wall u til you find something to stick.

Hear hear

[dawgs]

Also, why can't we get better production out of freshmen? With your best players leaving campus after 3 years, you have to have productive freshmen and sophomores. If not, you have an extremely shallow roster. We need to figure out what everyone else that's worth a damn is doing to get some of their freshmen to be productive.

Just went back and found my initial post that set off todd. "productive freshmen and sophomores" and "some of their freshmen to be productive" is a long way from what todd has tried to imply I've said or twist my words into me saying we need to "rely" on freshmen.