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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smootness View Post
    But isn't that the point of the OP?

    The quote is, 'You are what your record says you are'. So if you buy into that, then you will always say that an 8-4 team is better than a 7-5 team, because those teams are both what their records say they are.

    The quote is not, 'Your record reflects the kind of season you had'. No one disputes that statement.

    So you're basically proving his point...which is that when our record is not as good, everyone says, 'No, no, we are what our record says we are. We aren't a very good team'. But then when our record is better, it's, 'Well, our record is ok, but we're not a very good team'. You can't have it both ways. If you can be a worse team than your record reflects, then you can also be a better team than your record reflects.
    That is the reason I posted the other day we could be 13-0 and not be considered for the NC. Our being 13-0 will never be a better team than a 13-0 Alabama team in the eyes of the beholder.

  2. #22
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hells bells View Post
    Most of the hub bub is from the so-called media perception of MSU. I personally do not listen to Bounds, Finbaum, ect. I just refuse to panic about the program. Saturday night made me think, crowd stayed engaged throughout the game, recruits seemed excited, D-fense is damn good. The downward portion is special teams, kicking game, and QB injuries to Dak. I might be wearing ros? colored shades boys but I am very optimistic for the future. Main stream media does not dictate my opinion.
    Very good post.

    I think a lot of the anti-Mullen sentiment does come from a couple of things - both the media perception and from the panic over what Freeze did in recruiting last year.

    And it's natural, I've felt it myself at times. But I agree with you, I think if you try to just look at where we are (and obviously you have to take into account where the others in your league are) and shut out the outside noise, you become more optimistic. There are still very questionable decisions at times, but they're not just bad decisions in general; they are almost solely bad choices given the personnel on the field. It makes me question why the coaching staff can't see the personnel we do have on the field and understand why certain play calls won't work, but the good thing is that most of the issues (QB who can't run well, RB who is more of a scat-back than between the tackles) are being solved through recruiting, so it may not matter.

    It looks like all of our future QBs will be able to execute a QB draw or read option in short-yardage situations, and it seems like all of our future RBs will be able to pound it if asked. So I'm back on the Mullen train for now.

  3. #23
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Percho View Post
    That is the reason I posted the other day we could be 13-0 and not be considered for the NC. Our being 13-0 will never be a better team than a 13-0 Alabama team in the eyes of the beholder.
    Being in the SEC trumps that right now, though. They may not consider us as good as a 13-0 Alabama team, but they would definitely consider us better than an undefeated Ohio State or Baylor from this year, for example. Our resume would overwhelm any perceptions of our program.

  4. #24
    Senior Member codeDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    So this year- the motto is "you are what your record says you are"

    BUT

    Last year the motto was "we are 8-4 but we havent beaten anybody"....people did all they could to discredit us going 8-4 and 4-4 in the SEC. And they still do it- even our own fans. But suddenly this year, it's -"you are what your record says you are" ?????

    Why werent we what our record said we were last year???
    Plainly and simply, we have a coach who is doing a respectable job. At work I'll put up with a guy doing a respectable job. In my sports teams I expect more. Ole Miss and Hugh Freeze are doing things we should be doing and that is irritating. They are recruiting well, playing with passion, and pulling upsets.

    It should be irritating. You know why UM has Freeze and is doing the things they are doing? It's because we hired Dan Mullen and upped the competitive ante. It's time to compete and not lay down like dogs and take it. If that's not what the administration wants to do, that's fine. Nobody makes me buy tickets or go to games. There are more productive things for me to do with my time.

    I don't give a shit if the coach is Mullen or Hud or Hillary Clinton. I expect MSU football to do what it takes to be competitive, and I'm not seeing that right now on the field, in recruiting, or in communications with the fan base.

    Since Byrne left there has been a dramatic shift away from progressive leadership. I'm bored with losing and I'm not feeling inspired that anything is going to change. Meh. Somebody give me a ring when the leadership gives a damn again.

  5. #25
    Senior Member ShotgunDawg's Avatar
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    See... I don't agree with the statement, "you are what your record says you are." In the NFL it holds a little more validity because teams play similar schedules, but in college that isn't the case.

    Due to me believing that quote is purely "coach speak", I don't think we were very good last year when we were 8-5, but I do think we are pretty good this year at 4-6. My eyes tell me that, and our record is result of injuries, youth, untimely mistakes, and schedule. Just my opinion though.

    How many teams in the country do you think are capable of doing what we did to Bama the other night? 30 teams? 40 teams? 10 teams?

    Your answer to that question should tell you what your real opinion is.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    So this year- the motto is "you are what your record says you are"

    BUT

    Last year the motto was "we are 8-4 but we havent beaten anybody"....people did all they could to discredit us going 8-4 and 4-4 in the SEC. And they still do it- even our own fans. But suddenly this year, it's -"you are what your record says you are" ?????

    Why werent we what our record said we were last year???
    Who says that's our motto, 2 posters?

    I see a coach that's going to miss 2 bowls in 5 years and has a losing overall record against BCS teams and an abysmal record against teams with a pulse.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by codeDawg View Post
    Plainly and simply, we have a coach who is doing a respectable job. At work I'll put up with a guy doing a respectable job. In my sports teams I expect more. Ole Miss and Hugh Freeze are doing things we should be doing and that is irritating. They are recruiting well, playing with passion, and pulling upsets.

    It should be irritating. You know why UM has Freeze and is doing the things they are doing? It's because we hired Dan Mullen and upped the competitive ante. It's time to compete and not lay down like dogs and take it. If that's not what the administration wants to do, that's fine. Nobody makes me buy tickets or go to games. There are more productive things for me to do with my time.

    I don't give a shit if the coach is Mullen or Hud or Hillary Clinton. I expect MSU football to do what it takes to be competitive, and I'm not seeing that right now on the field, in recruiting, or in communications with the fan base.

    Since Byrne left there has been a dramatic shift away from progressive leadership. I'm bored with losing and I'm not feeling inspired that anything is going to change. Meh. Somebody give me a ring when the leadership gives a damn again.
    Wow. I respect your opinion, but there is just so much here I disagree with.

    1. I do think Mullen has done a good job. Call it respectable or whatever, but he's done enough to continue his employment.
    2. The Bears did land an outstanding recruiting class (the cause of about 95% of the anti-Mullen attitudes) and that's cause for concern, but let's not act like all of a suddent they are on the verge of winning the west. They've had one upset this year. Against an LSU team that might not be ranked by the end of the season.
    3. You think the hiring of Hugh Freeze upped the ante? Freeze was considered a trump card hire over Mullen? Don't think so. Most people are a little surprised of his limited success. Nobody is saying "see I told you Freeze would light up the SEC when he got there from Arkansas State!"
    4. You have the right to threaten to never come to another game until the coach gets fired. I think it's kind of silly but knock yourself out.
    5. Now nobody at MSU gives a damn? Really? And you are "bored with losing". What are you, like 12? If you can't handle losing games to top 20 teams, you might want to find a perennial top-10 program to root for.
    Last edited by MadDawg; 11-20-2013 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member engie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Percho View Post
    That is the reason I posted the other day we could be 13-0 and not be considered for the NC. Our being 13-0 will never be a better team than a 13-0 Alabama team in the eyes of the beholder.
    This is total insanity.

    ANY TEAM that goes 13-0 in the SEC will be playing for a national title until further notice. If we went 13-0 this year against the schedule we've faced -- we'd be in talks as one of the great SEC teams of the current era.

    It's funny to me that people can dismiss all this stuff as media "conspiracy theories" to keep poor ole MSU down -- when they were ALL over our jock in 2010 and leading into 2011. Maybe MSU FANS just think we're a much bigger threat than anyone else out there -- surely that can't be it? After we've proven to be pretenders at least once before when we crept onto the radar...

    The bottom line is -- respect is earned -- and the fact that they don't respect us JUST REFLECTS BADLY ON US. They aren't going to sit there and talk a bunch of this noise if they think there's even a marginal chance that we make them eat their words.
    Last edited by engie; 11-20-2013 at 01:50 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    This is total insanity.

    ANY TEAM that goes 13-0 in the SEC will be playing for a national title until further notice. If we went 13-0 this year against the schedule we've faced -- we'd be in talks as one of the great SEC teams of the current era.

    It's funny to me that people can dismiss all this stuff as media "conspiracy theories" to keep poor ole MSU down -- when they were ALL over our jock in 2010 and leading into 2011. Maybe MSU FANS just think we're a much bigger threat than anyone else out there -- surely that can't be it? After we've proven to be pretenders at least once before when we crept onto the radar...

    The bottom line is -- respect is earned -- and the fact that they don't respect us JUST REFLECTS BADLY ON US. They aren't going to sit there and talk a bunch of this noise if they think there's even a marginal chance that we make them eat their words.
    I generally agree when it pertains to us. The flip side of this coin though is why the hell the media gives two rats asses about OM. Freeze is 14-9 with only two quality wins if you count the egg bowl last season. Can you buy good media coverage???

  10. #30
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDawg View Post
    They've had one upset this year. Against an LSU team that might not be ranked by the end of the season.
    Dive into that a little more... Say LSU loses to JFF this weekend, and finishes 8-5 (Ark win/Bowl Loss) and OM loses out finishing 7-6 (Bowl Loss too), is that really an upset? Two unranked teams? Under the way we discount Mullen victories over UGA, UF, and "2nd tier" conference schools that go to bowls or win 8-10 games - we should do the same to Bucky. Greatest 'cruitin class in football history and all they can do is beat a "down" LSU? Bucky sucks. Fire him now!!!!!

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by engie View Post
    This is total insanity.

    ANY TEAM that goes 13-0 in the SEC will be playing for a national title until further notice. If we went 13-0 this year against the schedule we've faced -- we'd be in talks as one of the great SEC teams of the current era.

    It's funny to me that people can dismiss all this stuff as media "conspiracy theories" to keep poor ole MSU down -- when they were ALL over our jock in 2010 and leading into 2011. Maybe MSU FANS just think we're a much bigger threat than anyone else out there -- surely that can't be it? After we've proven to be pretenders at least once before when we crept onto the radar...

    The bottom line is -- respect is earned -- and the fact that they don't respect us JUST REFLECTS BADLY ON US. They aren't going to sit there and talk a bunch of this noise if they think there's even a marginal chance that we make them eat their words.
    I agree with you. However if we went 13-0 we would get respect that we are 13-0 but it would because everybody else were down or had injuries or something else. Well the SEC overall wasn't very good that year. We would get respect that would would have an * by it.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    Dive into that a little more... Say LSU loses to JFF this weekend, and finishes 8-5 (Ark win/Bowl Loss) and OM loses out finishing 7-6 (Bowl Loss too), is that really an upset? Two unranked teams? Under the way we discount Mullen victories over UGA, UF, and "2nd tier" conference schools that go to bowls or win 8-10 games - we should do the same to Bucky. Greatest 'cruitin class in football history and all they can do is beat a "down" LSU? Bucky sucks. Fire him now!!!!!
    My point made again. *13-0

  13. #33
    Senior Member Coach34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    It all depends on when you start looking at it. For instance, we are 5-11 in our last 16 games. So I ask you....are we "what our record says we are"?
    that's cherry-picked to fit an agenda...you are talking about 2 different teams 2012 and 2013

    2012- we were 8-5- that's the bottom line

    This year, we are 4-6 with 2 more games
    Walk like the King or walk like you don't care who the King is

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    that's cherry-picked to fit an agenda...you are talking about 2 different teams 2012 and 2013

    2012- we were 8-5- that's the bottom line

    This year, we are 4-6 with 2 more games
    And a shot at 7-6. A whopping 1 game behind last year (even if we all agree last year was disappointing).

  15. #35
    Senior Member codeDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDawg View Post
    Wow. I respect your opinion, but there is just so much here I disagree with.

    1. I do think Mullen has done a good job. Call it respectable or whatever, but he's done enough to continue his employment.
    2. The Bears did land an outstanding recruiting class (the cause of about 95% of the anti-Mullen attitudes) and that's cause for concern, but let's not act like all of a suddent they are on the verge of winning the west. They've had one upset this year. Against an LSU team that might not be ranked by the end of the season.
    3. You think the hiring of Hugh Freeze upped the ante? Freeze was considered a trump card hire over Mullen? Don't think so. Most people are a little surprised of his limited success. Nobody is saying "see I told you Freeze would light up the SEC when he got there from Arkansas State!"
    4. You have the right to threaten to never come to another game until the coach gets fired. I think it's kind of silly but knock yourself out.
    5. Now nobody at MSU gives a damn? Really? And you are "bored with losing". What are you, like 12? If you can't handle losing games to top 20 teams, you might want to find a perennial top-10 program to root for.
    1. I'm not arguing one way or another for Mullen's job. I'm arguing that the results are on a downward trend. Mullen circa 2009, 2010, 2012 are day and night to Mullen 2012 and 2013.
    2. The #1 contributor to winning games is talent. UM is getting middle to upper SEC talent. We are at the bottom of the SEC even in a good year. We won't ever have consistent success here, but we have to compete better. I think everyone recognizes that.
    3. There is a lot more to what is going on and changes UM made beyond the Freeze hire, but the replacement of the AD, the hiring of Freeze based on his recruiting success on Orgeron's staff, and the booster level of involvement are all responses to Mullen's early success.
    4. I'm not threatening that at all. I'm just not motivated to do so. I've been on campus a few times this year to have fun with friends and family, but sitting through a beating every week making the same mistakes is not on my good times list.
    5. I've been through Sherrill, Croom, and now Mullen. I've been to 90% of Sherrill, Croom's, and before this year, Mullen's home games. I've not seen our fan base this lethargic and unmotivated since Croom 2008. Include me in that. Dan's head has started to come out of his ass, but registering a pulse doesn't necessarily motivate me to devote a weekend, drive several hours, and spend my money on this product.

    It's not just that we losing. It's a lack of effort from the team early in the year. A lack of passion from the coach. A lack of communication, messaging, and engagement from the athletic department in general. Since Byrne left, we're back to poor 'ole MSU. We are not competing. We are not innovating. We are not motivating. I would rather not purchase that product.

  16. #36
    Senior Member smootness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codeDawg View Post
    1. I'm not arguing one way or another for Mullen's job. I'm arguing that the results are on a downward trend. Mullen circa 2009, 2010, 2012 are day and night to Mullen 2012 and 2013.
    How so on this?

    5-7 in 2009.
    9-4 in 2010.
    7-6 in 2011.
    8-5 in 2012.
    We'll see in 2013 - possibility of 7-6.

  17. #37
    Senior Member The Croom Diaries's Avatar
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    We are basically the same team with different variables every year for the last three years: we've lost to every single winning team we've played except LA Tech, MTSU and BG. We've beaten every single losing team we've played. Our win total has been totally dependent on scheduling. 80% of the crowd, including myself, wouldn't be questioning Mullen if Hud weren't out there. That's it. It's a strike while the iron is hot on Hud because Mullen hasn't proven he can get us over the hump. Niether has Hud obviously but maybe it's worth the gamble. This all has to do with hoping for the best (Mullen goes 6-6) but preparing for the worst (4-8 or 5-7). In the end there's a 90% chance Mullen will be back and I'm sure 90% of the fans will rally behind that because the decision has been made. But the team better find a way to win a big game next year or the apathy will really start to set in. Just winning the Egg Bowl will cure most of the ails - we will beat a good team and beat Ole Miss: a double shot of enthusiasm. If it makes us 6-6 that will be a triple shot and we'll be right back rolling again with a confident and enthusiastic fanbase.
    Last edited by The Croom Diaries; 11-20-2013 at 03:07 PM.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coach34 View Post
    Thats the first I've heard of that. I keep hearing other programs- that won fewer games- had better seasons
    because they didn't lose 4 out of 5 down the stretch and get beaten by a less talented Northwestern team and less talented Ole Miss team

  19. #39
    Senior Member Coach34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codeDawg View Post
    .
    5. I've been through Sherrill, Croom, and now Mullen. I've been to 90% of Sherrill, Croom's, and before this year, Mullen's home games. I've not seen our fan base this lethargic and unmotivated since Croom 2008. Include me in that. Dan's head has started to come out of his ass, but registering a pulse doesn't necessarily motivate me to devote a weekend, drive several hours, and spend my money on this product.

    It's not just that we losing. It's a lack of effort from the team early in the year. A lack of passion from the coach..
    There was nothing lethargic about our fans this past Saturday night
    After we win Saturday- there will be nothing lethargic about the Egg Bowl

    After we win the Egg Bowl- there will be nothing lethargic about our fanbase going to a bowl- and our team having 16 starters returning for next season- plus the two that we lost early this season also returning
    Walk like the King or walk like you don't care who the King is

  20. #40
    Senior Member Coach34's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgsBite34 View Post
    because they didn't lose 4 out of 5 down the stretch and get beaten by a less talented Northwestern team and less talented Ole Miss team
    but they lost 3 of 5 down the stretch and beat a shitty Pitt team in a shitty bowl

    Your record is what it says it is- remember?
    Walk like the King or walk like you don't care who the King is

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