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Thread: O.T. cuz 34 OK's. Why John Bonham was Rock's greatest. Not even close.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdawg View Post
    Need to break the drummers down in to categories because "rock" can be broken down into 50+ genres itself. And you can't really compare the drumming of someone like Ringo to the drumming of Joey Jordison. What are we looking for in "greatest" rock drummer? For me it's as much about being original and creative and having your own distinct style of play as it is playing difficult things. I've seen drummers play fast as hell but struggled with slow songs. Ringo isn't one of my favorites, but I respect him because he played his music perfectly and I don't mean that in a technical way, he just played exactly what needed to be played on each song. To me you're great when a song comes on the radio and you know who's playing drums even before you know what band it is. This is what separates the Pearts, Barkers, Carreys, Hawkins and Ringos of the world.
    Great post. Just like with rock guitar, technical proficiency and speed on drums can make for some impressive solos, but they won't necessarily make you a great rock drummer. Ringo's a solid example. Another's Nick Mason of Pink Floyd. I have no doubt that Bonham, Peart, Ginger Baker, and a host of others could drum circles around Mason in many ways. But his style was perfect for his band -- rolling but understated waves of rhythm, probably a touch behind the beat, that added a sort of slow-motion, liquidized layer to the atmosphere that they were creating on their records. Steve Shelley of Sonic Youth comes to mind. His sound, both in fills and throughout Sonic Youth's choruses, verses, and noise collages, has always stood out to me. I don't think just any drummer, even technically gifted speed demons, could do what he did in a band like that.

    One of my favs that no one has mentioned is Mitch Mitchell from the Jimi Hendrix Experience. Maybe more jazzy in style like Ginger Baker or Robert Wyatt (whose drumming with the Soft Machine back in the day was pretty damn stout, too), but nonetheless a classic rock drummer. I was always just as impressed listening to his drum parts as I was with Moon and Bonham.

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdawg View Post
    I agree with the last part, but Neil does a lot more than just play perfectly.
    I know, I was just using the "difficult/technical/perfect=best drummer" as a point of contention in this debate....by no means do I think Peart isn't also musical. He is. Like I said before, I like Peart a lot...but, and I'm not accusing others of in this thread of this, but I always see discussions for "X is the greatest [band, or drummer, guitar player, singer, etc.] of all time", with the reasoning behind that distinction being the level of precision and technicality in their style of play.

    As you just said in your recent post, there is such a level of nuance between different genres of rock music and what is required of the drummers that play them, it really is impossible to make apples to apples comparisons across those genres.

    Speaking of a drummer being very minimalistic, but whose play fits the music absolutely perfectly...I give you all: Phil Rudd


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    For most discussions like this, "rock" = anything not overly classical, nor the strictly jazz guys. But def hard to pigeonhole this subject.

    Always loved a rock solid 2&4 drummer, but just couldn't get into Ringo's style. I'd take a Charlie Watts any day over somebody like him.

    Bonzo just made everything groove and swing. Everything. Peart, Mangini, Portnoy, Jordison, etc...just robotic with no feel, to me. Bonham's parts were so creative and musical...never too much, never too tight. How a drummer can be loose and tight at the same time, I can't really explain, but JB pulled it off. Even his solos were musical...and I freaking hate most drum solos. Snore.

    (respect to NP tho. His A Show Of Hands solo is quite nice for a hit-lots-of-stuff-fast bit)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeardoMSU View Post
    Speaking of a drummer being very minimalistic, but whose play fits the music absolutely perfectly...I give you all: Phil Rudd
    Nice. That guy has mastered the art of playing on the very tail end of the beat. One of the best 2&4 guys around.

    Here's another that doesn't get his due: Brad Wilk. Kick, snare, floor tom. That's it, or at least was for a while. First RATM album is one of the greatest recorded rock drum performances ever.

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    While I'm not not a big fan of him being an actual member of Korn, Ray Luzier has some mad skills.

    Doing some Korn songs
    https://youtu.be/1yK5-EdSmCg

    Love his drumming on this song but if you don't want to listen to the whole song just fast forward to 3:10.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKjfToyUrew

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    Lars is widely regarded as a shell of his younger self, but the drum tracks he laid down on the Justice album are some of my all time favorite rhythms. He did a masterful job on that record.

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    Senior Member Drugdog's Avatar
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    I think Peart, Bonum.

    Just curious why no Tommy Lee?

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drugdog View Post

    Just curious why no Tommy Lee?
    Lol...

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    Senior Member Uncivilengineer's Avatar
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    I think I know you Extra Cheesed. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bothrops View Post
    Lars is widely regarded as a shell of his younger self, but the drum tracks he laid down on the Justice album are some of my all time favorite rhythms. He did a masterful job on that record.
    Man. Couldn't agree more on all points. (and AJFA is my vote for greatest metal album of all time) If you can find the article, there was a write-up on how that album was recorded. The engineer (Bob Rock?) told Lars that he was hitting so hard that they had to stop every 8 bars or so to re-tune. The truth is that Lars can't keep time to save his life and speeds up every song, and (I believe) refused to change his playing. They spliced it all together at the end somehow.

    There is a somewhat recent clip of them doing One floating around somewhere. Lars doesn't even make an effort to play that part anymore.

  11. #51
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtracheesed View Post
    Man. Couldn't agree more on all points. (and AJFA is my vote for greatest metal album of all time) If you can find the article, there was a write-up on how that album was recorded. The engineer (Bob Rock?) told Lars that he was hitting so hard that they had to stop every 8 bars or so to re-tune. The truth is that Lars can't keep time to save his life and speeds up every song, and (I believe) refused to change his playing. They spliced it all together at the end somehow.

    There is a somewhat recent clip of them doing One floating around somewhere. Lars doesn't even make an effort to play that part anymore.
    See, that's why I think you also have to consider Peart. Peart on the R40 tour in 2015 was just as much of a monster sound wise - at age 62- as he was when I first saw Rush live in 1989. Neil even talked in one of the documentaries about how he had to change his overall technique in his 50s to be able to continue to tour. He brought in a top jazz percussion teacher to refine his movements and minimize the impact rock drumming had on his body. 62 years old and he could still play all the parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    See, that's why I think you also have to consider Peart. Peart on the R40 tour in 2015 was just as much of a monster sound wise - at age 62- as he was when I first saw Rush live in 1989. Neil even talked in one of the documentaries about how he had to change his overall technique in his 50s to be able to continue to tour. He brought in a top jazz percussion teacher to refine his movements and minimize the impact rock drumming had on his body. 62 years old and he could still play all the parts.
    Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

    I probably just started a drum nerd fight there.

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    Senior Member DawgInMemphis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtracheesed View Post
    Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

    I probably just started a drum nerd fight there.
    A nerd drum fight? I'll play along - but I'm a far more accomplished guitar picker.

    /turns up guitar in the mix

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtracheesed View Post
    I probably just started a nerd fight there.
    My money is on this guy**


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtracheesed View Post
    It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

    I probably just started a drum nerd fight there.
    Damn right you did!





    Long live trad grip!

    But seriously, some of the best ones shifted back and forth with ease depending upon what they were doing. Mitch Mitchell played most of this solo with Hendrix in trad, but switched over to match briefly when focusing on some tom action:



    Art Blakey would do the same. This solo's about half trad, half match, but 100% kick-ass:


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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain. View Post
    Damn right you did!





    Long live trad grip!

    But seriously, some of the best ones shifted back and forth with ease depending upon what they were doing. Mitch Mitchell played most of this solo with Hendrix in trad, but switched over to match briefly when focusing on some tom action:



    Art Blakey would do the same. This solo's about half trad, half match, but 100% kick-ass:

    Was thinking the same thing, lol.

    You can also add Dave Weckl in there, too.

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    Senior Member BeardoMSU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prediction? Pain. View Post
    Long live trad grip!
    Hear, hear!


  18. #58
    Senior Member BrunswickDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xtracheesed View Post
    Peart is a one trick pony, which is why he doesn't even make my top 5. Don't get me wrong...Moving Pictures and Power Windows are two of my fave albums ever, and his drum parts are unreal. At least some part of my tinnitus is due to long drives with one or the other blasting at full volume. Are you talking about the Jim Chapin thing? Or maybe I have him confused with someone else. I knew that Neil switched to traditional grip for a while, but he just couldn't play the same that way. It's hard for any drummer not named Stewart Copeland to really hammer down with traditional.

    I probably just started a drum nerd fight there.
    This whole thread has been a drum nerd fight.....

    I can't remember who it was, but I don't think it was Chapin. It was after he switched back to matched grip, but was dealing with shoulder problems that prevented him from playing long sets. You are right about Copeland too.

    I actually have this debate with my son. I am admittedly a wanna-be drummer who tried and gave up due to a lack of musical ability. The boy is a real percussionist who has been the All-District and All-Region Principle Percussionist 5 straight years now (middle and high school). He leans to Chad Smith and Dave Grohl because he has grown up with them, but says he actually enjoys the Butch/Jaimoe/Quinones trio of the modern ABB the most. He likes the unique interplay between the 3 and that it is more like a symphonic percussion section adapted for rock.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrunswickDawg View Post
    I actually have this debate with my son. I am admittedly a wanna-be drummer who tried and gave up due to a lack of musical ability. The boy is a real percussionist who has been the All-District and All-Region Principle Percussionist 5 straight years now (middle and high school). He leans to Chad Smith and Dave Grohl because he has grown up with them, but says he actually enjoys the Butch/Jaimoe/Quinones trio of the modern ABB the most. He likes the unique interplay between the 3 and that it is more like a symphonic percussion section adapted for rock.
    It's interesting that he's drawn to the ABB's set-up. Probably a sign of maturity to show more interest in them than in something driven more by pure power. Those guys were great.

    Another similar set-up was the percussion section of Santana's original line-up. Mike Shrieve was great by himself, but the other percussion they had going on added so much to those first few records (Santana, Abraxas, and Santana III are all so great). Just recently happened upon an hour-long set from 1970 on YouTube that is well worth a look:



    Oh, and Shrieve? Another frequent worshiper at the Church of Trad:


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    Nice thread. I don't believe John Bonham's importance to drumming and rock music can be overstated. He was a HUGE influence on me as I was learning my way around a drum set. Staying away from studio legends like Steve Gadd and Jim Keltner, I think a few others deserve mention: Stewart Copeland, Tim "Herb" Alexander, Rob Hirst, Glenn Kotche, Jeff "Apt Q-258" Sipe, Alan White, Zigaboo (funk-rock), Steve Smith, Jeff Porcaro. Drummers like Keith Moon, Ginger Baker and Carter Beauford really don't do much for me (again personally). They're incredible drummers. But even in rock and roll - a GROOVE is essential. Bonham had power, grace, speed, precision and a groove that was a mile wide. A rock band's dream drummer, severe alcoholism aside. I don't categorize Neil Peart as a "rock drummer". He's so unique that I just refer to him as "Rush's Drummer". A childhood hero of mine. Bizarre approach, killer single stroke speed, impeccable musicality, great songwriter but limited from a hand/foot coordination standpoint. That coordination isn't all that important in rock music...but I've seen him attempt jazz and it was a little scary. Put a Zigaboo linear groove in front of him and he may fall off the drum throne.

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