Reply With QuoteYeah, look at his Vandy numbers and Penn State numbers.
When you defense plays on average 68% of the game, they are tired by the early 3rd quarter. I mean, how many games did UT lose in the last 22 minutes of the game. Dudes were absolutely gassed.
Shoops 2 years at Tenn...not good
'16 - 95th in Total Defense
68th in Scoring D
http://stats.ncaa.org/teams/66681?ut..._name=&org_id=
'17 - 81st in Total Defense
83rd in Scoring D
http://stats.ncaa.org/teams/113627?u..._name=&org_id=
Yeah, look at his Vandy numbers and Penn State numbers.
When you defense plays on average 68% of the game, they are tired by the early 3rd quarter. I mean, how many games did UT lose in the last 22 minutes of the game. Dudes were absolutely gassed.
Downvotes_Hype
Don?t have the time to loook it up....but what was TN overall talent level on d the past couple years ?Originally Posted by Lord McBuckethead
this is a futile thread. all of a sudden this guy can't coach once he arrives at TN where 3 and outs were the norm? NO 17ing D can survive that bullshit.
He had top 25 defenses at Vandy and PSU. And, IIRC, his safeties at Vandy led the SEC in picks one year.
Vandy:
2011 - #18
2012 - #19
2013 - #23
Penn State:
2014 - #2
2015 - #14
Shoop's D Yards per play rank nationally
15/16: 10th
14/15: 3rd (previous year 36th)
13/14: 33rd (With Vandy talent)
12/13: 21st (With Vandy talent)
11/12: 16th (With Vandy talent. Previous year 75th)
Last edited by Dawgs87; 12-08-2017 at 10:09 AM.
Slightly better than ours from a stars standpoint, but their posters on the Rant are saying that he had to deal with a number of injuries that made their defense look like our receiving corps. Add in having to work with the worst offense in the SEC, one that was so bad that they went a calendar month without an offensive touchdown, and a micromanager like Butch and you have a recipe for disaster.
He is a good DC. The only iffyness to this is the fact that he is a 4-3 guy.
WHY IS EVERYONE YELLING?!?
I think it?s a really good hire.
Wonder if he has some background with the 3-4?
Moorhead says we staying with it?? Idk
Florida, A&M and FSU has as much or more and you see what their record is. It's about that head coach and how much of a knuckle head he is. Saw how our defense improve when Mullen took his hands out of it last season.
Let me start with a caveat. I live in Tennessee surrounded by UT fans. So I've been inundated daily for the past two years about Shoop's supposed failure to live up to his hype. Most fans fully admit that Jones and the offense were bigger problems than the defense, but they've blamed Shoop plenty as well.
That said, here are my questions about Shoop:
1. What exactly happened at Penn State to create enough bad blood with Shoop to start a lawsuit? If you're not familiar with PSU's lawsuit against Shoop, and Shoop's claim that he was "constructively discharged" due to "intolerable" working conditions, read up:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ion/103901794/
I've looked at PSU message boards for answers, but have only found vague rumors about a mild spat among coaches' wives.
2. Putting aside the horror that was UT football this season, what happened to Shoop's defense in 2016? The offense at UT was really solid that year -- 2nd in the SEC in scoring offense and total offense in SEC games, and 28th nationally in offensive S&P+ ranks. UT's defenses under John Janek in 2014 and 2015 were solid as was well - 18th and 20th nationally in defensive S&P+ rankings in those years. Hell, the year before Shoop in SEC games, UT was in top half of the conference in scoring D and total D, 4th in red zone defense, and 2nd in 3rd down conversion D. (If you don't remember, in 2015 they held Bama to 19 points in Tuscaloosa (and lost by 4) and held an Oklahoma team that finished the season ranked 5th in the nation to 17 points in regulation (UT lost in double overtime). And to top it off, Shoop had tons of talent coming back -- out of 128 FBS teams, UT had the 16th most experience returning on defense in the nation. (If you prefer to look at returning starters instead of returning experience, they returned 8 starters on D in 2016.) And here are the 247 recruiting rankings at UT from 2012 to 2016: 19th, 25th, 7th, 4th, 14th.
So Shoop inherited an experienced, talent-laden defense that had had a good season the previous year, was really salty on 3rd downs, and had been able to keep their offense within one score of beating every opponent they played, including the likes of Bama and OU. And he ended up sharing the field with a great offense. Even people from the PSU side at the time thought that the UT move made sense in that it was more promising compared to what the upcoming 2016 season looked like there before they found some wunderkind named Moorhead:
So given all that, what happened?Finally, Shoop has the material coming this fall at Tennessee that he would not have at Penn State. The Nittany Lion defense will be in rebuilding mode at the same time Franklin and his new coordinator are trying to pick a new starting quarterback - any of whom will be a raw rookie, even Trace McSorley.
But at Tennessee, Shoop has almost the entire starting front seven back and need only fill in the secondary of two departures.
So, it's all about security. I think Jones has it. I don't think Franklin does. And if you're an employee who's livelihood depends upon the security of your boss, you have to move where you can find such a situation.
Shoop's 2016 D at UT regressed across the board. 52nd nationally in S&P+ rankings, bottom half of the conference in red zone D and 3rd down D, and second-to-last in the SEC in scoring D and total D in SEC games.
Here are some of the gory details from conference play in 2016:
So, again, what's the deal? One possible explanation is injuries. Apparently Tennessee suffered a bunch of injuries on D that year. So maybe that's part of it. But with all that returning experience and talent, that shouldn't have resulted in a collapse. And, I'm sorry, but even with a blend of 1st and 2nd stringers, how do you give up 443 yards rushing to a 7-6 Kentucky team and 420 yards rushing to a 4-8 Missouri team?Tennessee allowed 353 and 409 yards rushing to Texas A&M and Alabama before playing well enough for the Vols to win at South Carolina, only for the offense to play its worst game of the season.
It was after the shutout of Tennessee Tech that it really got ugly for Shoop and the Vols.
Kentucky racked up 635 yards, including 443 on the ground.
Missouri rushed for 420 yards en route to a 740-yard performance, the most yards ever allowed by a Tennessee defense, replacing the dubious mark set against Troy by the Sal-Sunseri-led disaster defense of 2012.
It got lower for Tennessee when Vanderbilt quarterback Kyle Shurmur torched the Vols' inept secondary as the Commodores scored 45 points, their highest against an SEC opponent since 1970.
To Shoop's credit, he took the blame. And maybe his explanation is the truth:
3. Shoop's Vandy and PSU defenses were solid or, in 2014, downright amazing. And the job at Vandy was especially impressive given how bad Vandy was the year before his (and Franklin's) arrival. In 2010, Vandy's D had an S&P+ rank of 76. In Shoop's three years, the ranks were 32nd, 41st, and 47th. I don't like the regression from year to year, but still, every year was better than it was before he got there."I think at the end of the year you always critique yourself and you quality control your personnel, your philosophy, your scheme, your execution and your personnel," he said. "I relate to Jonathan (Kongbo) on that. I think I might have billed it (with) some unrealistic expectations, and when we got guys injured, maybe the guy calling the shots was a little bit stubborn right there, me. I really wanted to force-fit, this is my style of defense or whatever. I probably didn't do a great job at times of tailoring things."
Penn State's D was solid before Shoop got there (22nd and 23rd nationally in S&P+ in the two seasons before Franklin took the head job), but he took it to new heights. 3rd nationally in 2014 and 16th in 2015. Again, don't like the regression, but still, both excellent performances.
The only things that give me a little pause about his work Vandy and PSU are the facts that both of those teams replicated his defensive numbers after he left. in 2015 and 2016, Vandy's D ranked 12th and 40th in the S&P+ rankings, and in 2016 and 2017, PSU's D was in the Top 15 nationally. So, yeah, he did great work at those schools, but his successors did too. (To be fair, Vandy's D regressed in 2017 -- 68th nationally.)
So I guess all this ramble is meant to say is that I've got some qualms. I love what he did at Vandy and really, really love what he did at PSU. But the collapse of UT's previously solid D in 2016 is hard to ignore, as is, to a lesser extent, the fact that other coaches replicated his success at Vandy and PSU after he left. And the weird lawsuit stuff just adds to those feelings.
I'll shut up now and listen to y'all's takes. I'm hoping my perspective is just tainted by all the orange I'm forced to see every day.
ETA: Crap, forgot No. 4 -- The one thing that has changed with Shoop since his Vandy and PSU days? No more Brent Pry. Pry was Co-DC and linebackers coach all three of Shoop's years at Vandy and both years at PSU, but he didn't come with Shoop to UT. Instead, Pry stayed at PSU as the DC.
Last edited by Prediction? Pain.; 12-08-2017 at 11:31 AM.
You are really insightful. Good work. I said in another thread and will repeat here... be cautious of bringing coaches that just joined Shoop at tenn
Dont like it. At all. If your biggest argument is look at what the guy did before he got to the SEC then you're in trouble. Would love to be wrong but I dont think I am
Vandy is in the SEC.
Great post.
I think most DCs go through this in their career. Yes Tennessee may have returned a ton of starters, but maybe the culture went bad, maybe the injuries added up, or maybe those experienced players didn't fit his scheme.
We have to remember that Grantham was bad at UGA for a few years & Manny Diaz was downright terrible at Texas.
I think down years is just part of being a DC
That being said, I think we will be getting an extremely motivated Shoop that will trying to restore his reputation & extremely happy to get out of a terrible situation at Tennessee.
As for the lawsuit stuff, I don't think Moorhead would've hired Shoop had Franklin not signed off on it. So, I have to believe that Shoops lawsuit was something that either Franklin was on the same side of or that Franklin thought was irrelevant to his coaching ability
Manny at Texas. Kevin Steele at Clemson. Sometimes really good coaches do really bad. Sometimes the pieces to the puzzle just don't fit. I love the hire.
Yeah, that's my hope too. Grantham did have a down year at UGA, so maybe Shoop had a down year that was unfortunately followed by one of the worst years in program history.
FWIW, by the way, I don't think Manny Diaz was terrible at Texas. In fact, his first year there was outstanding. He improved Texas' D across the board over what Muschamp had done the year before. Now, year two was a little down, but only by comparison -- Texas was 32nd nationally in defensive S&P+. So at worst, they were an above average Power 5 D. And in his last year, he only coached only two games -- a win over New Mexico St. and a road loss against BYU. That's it. Yeah, they stunk on D against BYU, but it was one game. Honestly, Diaz's worst year as DC since his early days at MTSU may have been his 2015 year at State, when our defense regressed across the board from where Collins had us in 2014.
So regressed every year? That's comforting
More yearly regression
Of note pertaining to that BYU game, taysom Hill was the qb that torched them on the ground. Hill is now a saint, and ran a 4.4 for nfl scouts. Gotta plug one of my saints
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