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Thread: Percy Harvin Effect

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    Senior Member Reason2succeed's Avatar
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    Percy Harvin Effect

    We've all complained about the WRs this year. They've been called the midgets and worse. After Bear, Fred Ross, and the dismissal of Fred Brown our coaches failed to recruit high quality X receivers for this offense. Todd, Couch, and Mitchell were simply a reaction to the realization that we had no size at WR.

    Granted I agree that HF, as a former WR coach himself, was on a mission to recruit by any illegal means necessary every WR away from us however there is another factor. I believe that Mullen became obsessed with trying to find the next Percy Harvin.

    We all remember Percy Harvin. 5'11 tough, elusive with game breaking speed. Mullen thought Donald Gray, Malik Dear, Deddrick Thomas, Gabe Myles, Keith Mixon were going to be the next PH. For various and sundry reasons it has not happened. Most notably the fact that Percy played surrounded by big time WRs and TEs. However, it looks like Gonzales and Mullen are turning the page. In our recruiting there are no slot receivers. Every WR is an X or a TE body.This bodes well for the future.

    While I understand that this year we have a glut of slot WRs I would love to see what Kylin Hill would do from the slot. If anyone on this team has the chance to be the next PH it is KH.
    Death penalty or bust!!!***

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    We don't use any of our WRs like Mullen used Harvin back in 2008. We don't do many zig-zagging speed sweeps. Maybe it's because none of them are fast enough. I happen to believe Mixon could do it, but I digress.

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    Super Moderator CadaverDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasu Dackds View Post
    We don't use any of our WRs like Mullen used Harvin back in 2008. We don't do many zig-zagging speed sweeps. Maybe it's because none of them are fast enough. I happen to believe Mixon could do it, but I digress.
    We use Mixon poorly. Kid is a playmaker, but we fail to put the ball in his hands

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    Senior Member Cooterpoot's Avatar
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    Look, we've struggled with recruiting. It's not just WR. We appear to finally have coaches on staff that understand how to recruit better, but there's no excuses for the lazy assed recruiting Hev and Gonzo have engaged in the last couple of years. I also think we struggle to handle juco recruiting, as evidenced by the number of redshirts we use on them and the lack of skill guys we're pulling. Our coaches got comfortable and the recruiting really fell off, even from the mediocre recruiting we were doing. You can survive one weak class, you can't survive two. We've also lacked support staff for recruiting until the last couple of years.

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    Senior Member Cooterpoot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    We use Mixon poorly. Kid is a playmaker, but we fail to put the ball in his hands
    Agree. How many jet sweeps have we seen this year? Damn near none. How much motion? Damn near none.

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    Harvin had the luxury of playing with the likes of Aaron Hernandez, Riley Cooper and Louis Murphy. He had playmakers around him. I think if we had some legit playmakers on the outside and at TE, it would open up things that would could do with our slot guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stalkingpoon View Post
    Harvin had the luxury of playing with the likes of Aaron Hernandez, Riley Cooper and Louis Murphy. He had playmakers around him. I think if we had some legit playmakers on the outside and at TE, it would open up things that would could do with our slot guys.
    This is true but we don't even see these plays against teams where we hold a talent advantage, like BYU.

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    Harvin is an elite college HOF player. We don't run Harvin type plays tailored for one player's explosiveness because we don't have a HOF player like that. Everyone has been trying to find another Percy but those guys only come around once a decade. Has there been another player in college as explosive as him that is both a RB & WR since he left Florida? I am drawing a blank.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GdpKSfNckbg

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    Uh...

    Percy Harvin was a ridiculous 5* receiver. The number 2 overall player in his class, number 1 WR. One of the best high school WRs in the past twenty years. You don't just recruit low 3* WRs who happen to be 5'11" and hope they're "the next Percy Harvin." Their height was literally the only thing those players have in common. Nor do I think Dan was looking for the next PH, because the next PH ain't gonna be a low 3* recruit. I think we were just bad at recruiting WRs, and the ones we got just happened to also be midgets. Haha. I don't think there was some intentional effort by our staff to find the next Harvin.

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    Senior Member louisvilledawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason2succeed View Post
    We've all complained about the WRs this year. They've been called the midgets and worse. After Bear, Fred Ross, and the dismissal of Fred Brown our coaches failed to recruit high quality X receivers for this offense. Todd, Couch, and Mitchell were simply a reaction to the realization that we had no size at WR.

    Granted I agree that HF, as a former WR coach himself, was on a mission to recruit by any illegal means necessary every WR away from us however there is another factor. I believe that Mullen became obsessed with trying to find the next Percy Harvin.

    We all remember Percy Harvin. 5'11 tough, elusive with game breaking speed. Mullen thought Donald Gray, Malik Dear, Deddrick Thomas, Gabe Myles, Keith Mixon were going to be the next PH. For various and sundry reasons it has not happened. Most notably the fact that Percy played surrounded by big time WRs and TEs. However, it looks like Gonzales and Mullen are turning the page. In our recruiting there are no slot receivers. Every WR is an X or a TE body.This bodes well for the future.

    While I understand that this year we have a glut of slot WRs I would love to see what Kylin Hill would do from the slot. If anyone on this team has the chance to be the next PH it is KH.
    Disagree completely with just about everything you said. I don't think Mullen has become obsessed with finding the next Percy Harvin. If he would have been obsessed with finding one, you could throw Billy Gonzales in there too since he was the recruiter of Percy Harvin at Florida. Harvin was a generational talent. Was the number 1 or 2 ranked player overall in his class.

    As far as kylin hill comparison to harvin, Harvin was 5'11 175 lbs. Kylin Hill is about 30 lbs heavier than Harvin.

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    Super Moderator CadaverDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasu Dackds View Post
    This is true but we don't even see these plays against teams where we hold a talent advantage, like BYU.
    Exactly.

    I feel like Dan always tries to spread the ball around and be balanced in all aspects, but when you only have 1 or 2 playmakers at WR, you need to create ways to get them touches. There's no excuse for the lack of involvement of Donald Gray so far this year. No, he's not getting much separation outside at 5'9....so it is our HC/OC's job to find other ways to get him involved, and the same goes with Mixon. Run a damn reverse for goodness sakes, we don't even ever try a basic reverse. Jet sweeps, reverses, how about lining Gray or Mixon up in the wildcat? Something. Nope, not us. How about we create a package where we run some triple option like Fitz ran in HS? Not 10 plays, but like 2, just to confuse the defense and give us a chance at a big play. The lack of creativity & utilizing our best players is frustrating as hell.

    And speaking of playmakers....as much as I love the A-Train, Kylin Hill & Nick Gibson are much bigger HomeRun threats at RB. So while I'm fine with Aeris getting the lions share, we need those two touching the ball more to give us a HR threat beyond Fitz's legs.

    How about a Diamond set with 2 or all 3 of our stud RB's? Too creative, I know.
    Last edited by CadaverDawg; 10-16-2017 at 09:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bostondawg View Post
    Uh...

    Percy Harvin was a ridiculous 5* receiver. The number 2 overall player in his class, number 1 WR. One of the best high school WRs in the past twenty years. You don't just recruit low 3* WRs who happen to be 5'11" and hope they're "the next Percy Harvin." Their height was literally the only thing those players have in common. Nor do I think Dan was looking for the next PH, because the next PH ain't gonna be a low 3* recruit. I think we were just bad at recruiting WRs, and the ones we got just happened to also be midgets. Haha. I don't think there was some intentional effort by our staff to find the next Harvin.
    This^

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    Senior Member Todd4State's Avatar
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    I don't know about Kylin Hill in the slot. I'm not sure he has the hands or route running ability. I think Dear when healthy could be used like Harvin. I think Jerrion Ealy in the 2019 class could eventually play that role down the road and he is a four or five star guy. I wanted Dan to go after Cam Akers hard so he could potentially play the Harvin role but it didn't happen- which sucks. Mixon seems more like Chris Rainey or Jeff Demps than Harvin to me.

    And while I am fine with Dan's play calling I would like to see a little bit more creativity with how we use our personnel. I'd like to see Dontavian Lee at H-Back/FB and some three back formations.

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    Senior Member Reason2succeed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by louisvilledawg View Post
    Disagree completely with just about everything you said. I don't think Mullen has become obsessed with finding the next Percy Harvin. If he would have been obsessed with finding one, you could throw Billy Gonzales in there too since he was the recruiter of Percy Harvin at Florida. Harvin was a generational talent. Was the number 1 or 2 ranked player overall in his class.

    As far as kylin hill comparison to harvin, Harvin was 5'11 175 lbs. Kylin Hill is about 30 lbs heavier than Harvin.

    You're free to disagree but I can remember Dan Mullen at least 1,000 times saying that they are looking for players that create mismatches. If the mismatch isn't size then obviously he thought (right or wrong and we now know definitely wrong) that the players they were signing could use their speed and/or elusiveness to get open. It's easy to play Monday morning QB. I completely agree it hasn't worked but to me it is obvious that Mullen had some type of plan for all these small WRs or we wouldn't have 8 of them on the roster.
    Death penalty or bust!!!***

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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd4State View Post
    I don't know about Kylin Hill in the slot. I'm not sure he has the hands or route running ability. I think Dear when healthy could be used like Harvin. I think Jerrion Ealy in the 2019 class could eventually play that role down the road and he is a four or five star guy. I wanted Dan to go after Cam Akers hard so he could potentially play the Harvin role but it didn't happen- which sucks. Mixon seems more like Chris Rainey or Jeff Demps than Harvin to me.

    And while I am fine with Dan's play calling I would like to see a little bit more creativity with how we use our personnel. I'd like to see Dontavian Lee at H-Back/FB and some three back formations.
    I don't like Hill in the slot either. I'm also not convinced we could use Dear like Harvin. Harvin was 5'11" 190, Dear is 5'9" 224. By every stretch of the imagination, Dear is a bowling ball and shouldn't be at receiver. We just have too many good running backs and we've gotta find ways to get them on the field, I guess. Dear should be used like a running back at slot, running screens to him with a few blockers ahead of him. Or at H-back. Also, it seems really likely Ealy is gonna head to pro baseball, unfortunately. He could be a stud dual-sport athlete if he would come to MSU.

    ETA: We complain about our midget receivers, but Dear is literally 5'9". Haha. Harvin still had generational talent to make mismatches. He could run circles around Dear. Although I could be misremembering how Mullen used Harvin at Florida.

    ETA2: Nevermind Todd, I was just misremembering how Harvin was used. I thought he normally lined up in the slot. Just went and watched his college highlights, and that's not the case at all. I take back what I was saying earlier, maybe Dear could be used like that. But I'm gonna keep my incorrect opinion up and all the shame that comes with it. Haha.
    Last edited by bostondawg; 10-16-2017 at 10:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason2succeed View Post
    We've all complained about the WRs this year. They've been called the midgets and worse. After Bear, Fred Ross, and the dismissal of Fred Brown our coaches failed to recruit high quality X receivers for this offense. Todd, Couch, and Mitchell were simply a reaction to the realization that we had no size at WR.

    Granted I agree that HF, as a former WR coach himself, was on a mission to recruit by any illegal means necessary every WR away from us however there is another factor. I believe that Mullen became obsessed with trying to find the next Percy Harvin.

    We all remember Percy Harvin. 5'11 tough, elusive with game breaking speed. Mullen thought Donald Gray, Malik Dear, Deddrick Thomas, Gabe Myles, Keith Mixon were going to be the next PH. For various and sundry reasons it has not happened. Most notably the fact that Percy played surrounded by big time WRs and TEs. However, it looks like Gonzales and Mullen are turning the page. In our recruiting there are no slot receivers. Every WR is an X or a TE body.This bodes well for the future.

    While I understand that this year we have a glut of slot WRs I would love to see what Kylin Hill would do from the slot. If anyone on this team has the chance to be the next PH it is KH.
    Nah fam leave Kylin at RB. He's gonna be a great one

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    Senior Member Barking 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    Exactly.

    I feel like Dan always tries to spread the ball around and be balanced in all aspects, but when you only have 1 or 2 playmakers at WR, you need to create ways to get them touches. There's no excuse for the lack of involvement of Donald Gray so far this year. No, he's not getting much separation outside at 5'9....so it is our HC/OC's job to find other ways to get him involved, and the same goes with Mixon. Run a damn reverse for goodness sakes, we don't even ever try a basic reverse. Jet sweeps, reverses, how about lining Gray or Mixon up in the wildcat? Something. Nope, not us. How about we create a package where we run some triple option like Fitz ran in HS? Not 10 plays, but like 2, just to confuse the defense and give us a chance at a big play. The lack of creativity & utilizing our best players is frustrating as hell.

    And speaking of playmakers....as much as I love the A-Train, Kylin Hill & Nick Gibson are much bigger HomeRun threats at RB. So while I'm fine with Aeris getting the lions share, we need those two touching the ball more to give us a HR threat beyond Fitz's legs.

    How about a Diamond set with 2 or all 3 of our stud RB's? Too creative, I know.
    I must spread more reputation around.. It just won't let me ever give you any...
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    The real truth is that Zach Fararr screwed us. He was a high three star WR out of Tx. Was committed to us then OU offered and he was gone. Crazy thing about it is he is now at MGCC cause Riley wouldn't let him play baseball. So our recruiting WR that year was Nero Nelson AJ, couch and Fararr. We ended up with couch Todd and Mitchell. We will get Nelson back and are adding guirdry and Heath this year. This is why we are in the position we are at WR. Three devolpmental guys

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    Senior Member PassInterference's Avatar
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    The film on Percy Harvin shows that Florida out a hat on all the defenders in his area. Percy was fast enough that it didn?t take much of a block. But they blocked everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CadaverDawg View Post
    Exactly.

    I feel like Dan always tries to spread the ball around and be balanced in all aspects, but when you only have 1 or 2 playmakers at WR, you need to create ways to get them touches. There's no excuse for the lack of involvement of Donald Gray so far this year. No, he's not getting much separation outside at 5'9....so it is our HC/OC's job to find other ways to get him involved, and the same goes with Mixon. Run a damn reverse for goodness sakes, we don't even ever try a basic reverse. Jet sweeps, reverses, how about lining Gray or Mixon up in the wildcat? Something. Nope, not us. How about we create a package where we run some triple option like Fitz ran in HS? Not 10 plays, but like 2, just to confuse the defense and give us a chance at a big play. The lack of creativity & utilizing our best players is frustrating as hell.

    And speaking of playmakers....as much as I love the A-Train, Kylin Hill & Nick Gibson are much bigger HomeRun threats at RB. So while I'm fine with Aeris getting the lions share, we need those two touching the ball more to give us a HR threat beyond Fitz's legs.

    How about a Diamond set with 2 or all 3 of our stud RB's? Too creative, I know.
    I agree with all of this. Good post. Donald Gray is our Percy Harvin. He needs to get plays called for him like Harvin got. He has a ton of make you miss. We see it on PR/KR. It's a little too late in his career now though to suddenly be getting RB touches but Gray is the dude we should have been using as Percy Lite. Mixon is also that guy. We have enough weapons on offense. We don't call plays tailored to those weapons though. We just call plays. I'd like this to change. I'd like the plays that get called be specifically designed to utilize a specific players skill set. For example the Couch td vs BYU. We should be attempting that over the top bomb pass to Couch 3-4 times a game every game moving forward. Specifically that exact same play. I doubt we see that play called for Couch more than 1-2 times more the entire year though. Saban on the other hand would know that is something he can exploit on defenses with Couch now and he would attempt that exact same play five times a game every game. Another play we should be running the hell out of is the speed option. Fitz with Kylin Hill. Over and over. Defense collapse on Fitz he pitches it to Hill. Defense doesn't collapse on Fitz he fakes the pitch and is ten yards upfield before the defense can even react. This play with Fitz's speed should be getting used ten times a game. Mix in a wide receiver reverse with it and it's a lethal play call. Mix in a pass off the WR reverse and it's a touchdown every time.

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