Pondering our current football status (Long, sorry)

[MarketingBully]

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you or I think....they're the one being recruited, and this kid's dad is letting him make his own decision. The kid says he loves MSU, but wants to compete for a Championship. The school he is committed to isn't any closer to winning one today than we are, but they have made him believe he can. Which is why he's willing to go there and be a backup for a few years, when he could start as a freshman for us. It is what it is. Believe what you want, but if you think a 17 year old thinks the same as a couple of older message board fans, that's on you.

Bottom line, the guy actually gave lots of props to Mullen and the position coach recruiting him....but ultimately said his son doesn't feel he can compete for a championship at MSU while he feels he can at the other school. And he said he doesn't think Mullen thinks he can either, because he's never even said it. Shallow or not, that's the truth....and trust me, I've thrown my greatest sales pitches possible at his Dad, ha.

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

[MarketingBully]

Some folks are letting the Saban effect get them.

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

[Indndawg]

I'm somewhat disappointed in myself for not being more excited about what could be an 8-4 type season in the SEC. I always told myself during the Croom years that if we could ever become a 6-7 win team consistently I'd never complain again. So let me preface the rest of my post by saying, I'm content with 7-9 win seasons as all MSU fans SHOULD be....but that doesn't mean I dont want us to always strive to be better and take another step.

So with that said, I feel like we've reached a point where we're going to beat the teams we are more talented than, and lose pretty much every game against a team with better talent or a defense that can stop our run. Again, that's still good enough to win 7-8 games most years....but what are we doing to try and improve on that so that complacency doesn't set in?

My first thought is, we're recruiting playmakers at WR. I think that is the absolute right call, bc the only way a team with less overall talent pulls the upset, is to have playmakers that can win you games via 50/50 balls and pure skill. I'm disappointed that our staff allowed us to become so bad at WR considering our QB talent the last 4-5 years...that was just a failure at recruiting. BUT, we are addressing it this year and we desperately need to make sure Heath, Guidry, & hopefully Jason sign the dotted line.



The second part of the next step imo, must come via a philosophy change by our head coach. We have been trying to run our Kentucky gameplan vs the Bama's (& this year AU & UGA's) of the world for 8 years and it hasn't worked. Why? Bc our entire passing success is determined on the ability to run. When we can't run, we can't pass. This is only going to become a bigger and bigger problem until we get the better WR's on campus, bc teams are just going to go all in on the run game.

So my question is, what are we (what is Dan) doing to try to adjust & give us a better shot at competing with a Bama this year for instance? Obviously, we aren't likely to win that game. But what is/has Dan been doing to try to give us a puncher's chance? That's where I'm frustrated. There are always going to be 3-4 teams minimum in this league that can stop our run, so if we are truly trying to compete for Championship's, how are we preparing ourselves to beat those 3-4 teams each year? Are we doing anything? Are we trying to revamp our passing playbook? Or are we just hoping that a better raw passer at QB + a few D1 caliber receivers, will equal a passing game capable of getting us to a new level? Because I don't think it's ONLY a talent issue. I feel like Dan lacks the confidence in coaching a passing game, so he gets ultra conservative and abandons all creativity against these A teams we're talking about. That isn't a talent thing, and I hope he's working on that. During the offseason there was an article where other coaches in the SEC anonymously critiqued their SEC counterparts....one coach said Dan was a good coach, but he wasn't hard to prepare for because you know what he's going to run, you just have to execute. That is concerning to me, and shows a lack of creativity and adjustments.

We are never going to recruit well enough to line up and out-talent the Bama's or this year's UGA's & even AU's of the world.....so are we just going to keep conceding those games, or at some point are we going to try something they aren't expecting. I know many of you have sat at home like me and been able to predict several play calls in a row in big games...if we can, Smart can & Saban can, and many others can.

So with everything I've said above being the case....do you ever see Dan becoming more creative or becoming less tight in those big games? Or do you think we just need to accept that most years with Dan we have a great shot at 7-9 wins, which is awesome, but that we won't even be competitive with the top 2-3 teams in the SEC? And if so, how does that make you feel? I feel like I'm there, and while I don't want to get rid of Mullen and lose the 7-9 wins per year, I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm not a little disappointed thinking that despite how great Mullen has done, we probably don't have a realistic shot at winning the West with Dan, but can count on every year being a great year in "MSU standards".

Ultimately, I'm just curious if anybody else is feeling the same way, and what you think about it? Am I missing some adjustments? Because I could be. Again, this thread isn't bashing Mullen, he's our best ever and I don't want to lose him. I'm just thinking maybe we reached that ceiling and it's time to just adjust my expectations and just enjoy our best years ever and the talent we're putting on the field compared to years' past. It's just a weird feeling, bc I'm very grateful as a long time Dawg that knows how bad it can be...makes me feel guilty to say I wish we could make a few adjustments that could give us a little more, because I definitely think we have one of the best coaches in the country. I'm just wondering if he'll ever have the talent needed for us to compete for the West with his system. But I'll gladly take this over years past if not. Maybe these last 8 years are the MSU mountain top.

Thoughts? Sorry for long post.

Mobile QB that CAN pass
Big WR that can actually catch
Decent OL

[Mimi's Babies]

Very good post Cadaver. It is definitely a conundrum feeing like we have achieved a level we all dreamed about and yet feeling that we have plateaued.

As an eternal optimist and sunshine pumper - I?ll try to give you some hope.

1) Dan is still a young coach. He has made many adjustments in his time here and seems willing to learn and grow (regardless of the Hev/Country Club criticism).
2) some of the needed offensive adjustments are already being addressed. Think about this - Key is our first big time QB recruit. Assuming he can attack learning the system, he has the potential to shatter every record we have. By adding big time QB?s - you are seeing better receivers committing - they know they will get the damn ball. No offense to Dak or Fitz - but neither of them were going to draw big time WR to come with them as recruits. Guys like Key, Maden, etc will.
3) We are using our resources wisely. We have money, and Cohen knows we need to spend on assistants to make us better. We saw it on D last year. I think we will see it more this off season.
4) To make the next big step, I really think we need Dan to bring in or promote someone to OC and let them take the reigns. Dan can focus on big picture and QBs.

We really aren?t that far off. But, the other big thing is someone needs to make Saban hang it up. He is strangling the SEC bit by bit.

Hev is not OC material. Please dear Jesus..Just no.

[Mimi's Babies]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

Yes, when saben disrupted the entire school and landed his helicopter next to the school.... Yes, saban did everything he could to get the kid. Have you ever thought about what did OM attempt to do at that school?

[Mimi's Babies]

Yes, when saben disrupted the entire school and landed his helicopter next to the school.... Yes, saban did everything he could to get the kid. Have you ever thought about what did OM attempt to do at that school?

As late as last fall..

[Mimi's Babies]

Good points by you and Todd. We now have an athletic dept and AD who want to win and are serious about it.

If L.T. was still at MSU we would still be in a huge hole. He should have been gone 15 years before he left. With the current Athletic department I see us going forward. I sure don't believe that there will be any money changing hands here.

[Dawg61]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

We have like 24 guys committed right now and Ole Miss has like 1. You need to take a break from MSU football for a couple days dude.

[BrunswickDawg]

Hev is not OC material. Please dear Jesus..Just no.

Never said Hev or Gonzo for that matter. I think Brian Johnson could come back and do it. Possibly Elliot in. Couple of years. It needs to be someone who understands Dan and Dan trusts.

[msbulldog]

While I?m happy winning 7-9 every year, I?m not content doing so if that makes any sense. Anyone that?s been a state fan for more then ten years will never take a consistent 7-9 win seasons for granted. What?s been infuriating, though, is that these past few seasons we?ve always just been one or two pieces away from really being elite. Here lately it?s been WR, kicker, and OL. Looks like we?ve addressed kicker and addressing WR and I read on another board that supposedly Hev had a come to Jesus meeting. I really hope that?s true. As for Mullen coaching scared in big games...maybe Megan needs to give him a nice hummer before they take the field to loosen him up.

A good ole hummer always works for me, I don't know if I do my job any better, but I damn sure feel better.

[basedog]

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

"Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is".

Maybe escorts are not as phony as ole Hugh! You say "charismatic" I say "cheater"!

[BrunswickDawg]

You’re absolutely right. As much as Ole Miss cheated to get recruits, Hugh Freeze was a much more charismatic guy than Mullen is. Do you think Freeze recruited with the what you see is what you get mentality? No. He gave them the same bullshit everyone else does. We are also talking about a man who almost lost Tim Tebow to Mike Shula because he made such a bad first impression with his dad and Tim initially. Meyer had to clean up Mullen’s mess. Mullen is however a great football coach and a great offensive mind but he needs to surround himself with excellent recruiters to make up for his difficiencies. He needs to get rid of Hev and bring in a great recruiter in his stead. Surround himself with coaches who recruit at an extremely high level. Otherwise some of those advantages everyone thinks we should have with Ole Miss being on probation may end up going to LSU and Alabama.

Dan has become a very charismatic guy. I don't think he was as an assistant coach - but if I led the life of a college assistant coach I'd probably be a grumpy ass too. Watch interviews with Dan. He's got a great sense of humor and is very engaging. And he does things that instills loyalty in people. Back in August when it was raining like crazy every day, the FMB ruined their practice field and had to move band camp to Starkville High. When Dan came to talk to the band - he spent considerable time talking to every student that came up to get a selfie finding out where they were from etc. (even asked my daughter if she went to BHS or Glynn Academy - she was floored that he knew our 2 local high schools). Then he asked why they were at SHS for practice. When he found out, he re-arranged fall camp practice so the Band could use one of the turf fields. He then came out on his office balcony almost every practice to watch some. Band kids aren't used to that type of support from football. But, that's the type guy you get with Dan.

Now if you think Hugh is charismatic, I would never go buy a car with you - because I bet the salesman convinces you need the under carriage protection spray, the additional roadside assistance program, and a special deluxe package of pinstriping for your used Chevy Silverado.

[CadaverDawg]

Yeah the guy's dad I'm talking about said he nor his son realized Dan was such a cool, fun, guy until they started spending time around him and on the phone with him. They were at the LSU game and said when they got there they expected LSU to win, but after they talked to Dan pregame and got to participate in group meetings and hear Dans pregame speech, they left the locker room thinking we had this. Said Mullen was cool and confident and motivational.

He told me Mullen & Co was putting in more recruiting effort than pretty much everyone else except the committed school at this point, and that we are the clear #2 despite offers from the entire country pretty much. So I came away feeling much better about our recruiting as a whole despite us likely not getting his son. He said he's never seen so many good players interested in MSU, and they were floored by our campus, stadium and atmosphere vs LSU. We're definitely improving on the recruiting trail, and it shows.

[Todd4State]

Never said Hev or Gonzo for that matter. I think Brian Johnson could come back and do it. Possibly Elliot in. Couple of years. It needs to be someone who understands Dan and Dan trusts.

That would be the best case scenario for us. Or maybe Will Friend from Colorado State to add some pro style looks to our offense.

[Liverpooldawg]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

One more time, jeez.......There are at least as many Alabama fans in the Golden Triangle as MSU fans. Outside of Starkville there are more. Bama starts on at the worst an equal footing with us in recruiting kids in the Triangle. It’s never a slam dunk for us there when Bama is involved.

[Cooterpoot]

Losing a kid from West Point who should have been a slam dunk to us to Alabama because Saban outworked us for him and losing a Starkville kid to Ole Miss (even with illegal recruiting) should wake people up. Recruiting is the lifeblood of your program and you hardly get the four to five star players using vinegar. When was the last time we won a recruit because we outworked the other team for them. Cannizzaro, Howland, Schaefer you see it time and time again. It’s almost like we don’t put the same expectations of football recruiting like we do other sports. Mullen is the Andy Kennedy of recruiting for MSU with the majority of the same results.

Books' still out on Cannizaro and Howland. Especially Howland. He's done nothing here. I do believe Canz will, but let's see how many draft guys he's able to keep, since that was a big part of folks thinking when we hired him. There's no denying the failures in recruiting. But to believe Mullen can't do more is a reflection of MSU as much as anything. Look at the class we've got coming in. Probably going to be close to a top 15 class. Still going to be a low rated class in the conference. No MS school is going to do better than that without cheating right now. Just the way it is. Canz has tradition on his side. He's also going to have the best facilities in America. Dan doesn't.

[Maroonthirteen]

One more time, jeez.......There are at least as many Alabama fans in the Golden Triangle as MSU fans. Outside of Starkville there are more. Bama starts on at the worst an equal footing with us in recruiting kids in the Triangle. It?s never a slam dunk for us there when Bama is involved.

Exactly Liverpool! Many of Columbus residents have Alabama relatives and are Tide fans because of that or just bandwagon fans. But regardless wcbi and the Dispatch cover Alabama football for this reason. The Columbus media (& WTVA) is all West Point and Starkville have (locally) and that has an influence.

With that said though, I have pondered if Alabama winning NCs is bad or good for us? They always signed pretty much who they wanted out of MS. However they are recruiting nationally now and a lot of MS kids in the past they would have signed...they now pass on for a kid out of the north or west or east coast.

Sure it would be better if they were perennial door mats but that isn't happening either in our lifetime. Which leads back to the OP. Yeah, it is frustrating to know you have very little chance to win a game on the schedule but we are experiencing unprecedented success as well. I look at Bamas success and our inability to keep up despite recruiting better than ever, more as a flaw with college football in general more so than specifically a Dan Mullen or MSU problem.